Filing IFR as a student?
Javier Henderson
I'm not instrument rated yet, but getting close to it. We've done some cross
country trips with the instructor, including the 'long' one.
My question to the fellow netters is...can I file an IFR flight plan, and
fly it, including the approach, etc., by myself? Of course, in VFR conditions.
The idea is to practice everything involved with an IFR flight.
Thanks.
--
Javier Henderson
j...@crash.cts.com
Gregory R. Travis
>My question to the fellow netters is...can I file an IFR flight plan, [as a
student IFR pilot, not currently IFR rated - grt]
>and fly it, including the approach, etc., by myself? Of course, in VFR conditions.
>The idea is to practice everything involved with an IFR flight.
Sorry, but the answer is no.
greg
--
Gregory Reed Travis D P S I
Data Parallel Systems Incorporated gr...@dpsi.com (For MX mailers only!)
Bloomington, IN gr...@indiana.edu (For the others)
Geoff Peck
writes:
> Can I [as a non-instrument-rated pilot] file an IFR flight plan, including
> the approach, etc., by myself? Of course, in VFR conditions.
Absolutely not. Go re-read FAR61.3, Requirement for certificates, rating,
and authorizations, specifically:
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under instrument flight rules, or in weather conditions less
than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless --
(1) In the case of an airplane, he holds an instrument rating or an
airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category
rating on it;
If you file an IFR flight plan, you are operating under instrument flight
rules.
Be warned that simply _accepting_ an approach clearance constitutes
operating under instrument flight rules. If you negotiate with a
controller for an approach, make sure that your initial request or your
readback of the clearance includes the phrase "in VFR conditions" or,
simply, "VFR".
> The idea is to practice everything involved with an IFR flight.
You may do so without the IFR flight plan and clearance. However, you'll
also need to modify your cruising altitudes to be those appropriate for VFR
flight.
Geoff
Wolfgang Diestelkamp
> In <1993Jan25.112830.24208@crash> j...@crash.cts.com (Javier Henderson) writes:
>
> >My question to the fellow netters is...can I file an IFR flight plan, [as a
> student IFR pilot, not currently IFR rated - grt]
> >and fly it, including the approach, etc., by myself? Of course, in VFR conditions.
>
> >The idea is to practice everything involved with an IFR flight.
>
> Sorry, but the answer is no.
While Greg is technically correct, he doesn't answer the question
as I felt it was intended:
No, you can't *file* IFR; you *can* instead always ask ATC
to *fly* the IFR procedures (in VMC) anyway.
I have done this a few weeks ago, after the IFR checkride, but
before I had my rating on my license; no problem at all, even
getting a special VFR clearance for the final, as the ceiling was
getting down to 2000' to not violate cloud seperation
(note though that special VFR is somewhat different in Europe
from what it is in the US).
It's a good way to practice, and if ATC is not too busy, they
can treat you semi-IFR like (like all comunication like on an
IFR flight, after the missed they made me leave the TMA (~ARSA)
via the IFR reporting point, instead of the VFR routing).
Just be sure to maintain VFR at all times, and take a safety pilot.
--
Wolfgang Diestelkamp
w...@cs.tu-berlin.de
wolf...@first.gmd.de
Philip D. Turner
>Hello,
>I'm not instrument rated yet, but getting close to it. We've done some cross
>country trips with the instructor, including the 'long' one.
>My question to the fellow netters is...can I file an IFR flight plan, and
>fly it, including the approach, etc., by myself? Of course, in VFR conditions.
>The idea is to practice everything involved with an IFR flight.
Only an instrument rated pilot can file an IFR flight plan.
--
Phil Turner ph...@onetouch.COM
Columbus, OH ...!uunet!onetouch!phil
There's more than one way to skin a cat:
Way number 27 -- Use an electric sander.
Skip Guild
>
>My question to the fellow netters is...can I file an IFR flight plan, and
>fly it, including the approach, etc., by myself? Of course, in VFR conditions.
>
>The idea is to practice everything involved with an IFR flight.
>
With the cooperation (and approval!) of your instructor, the flight can be a
legal and complete IFR flight if your instructor has you do the verbal part
of calling FSS to get the weather, etc., and then you file an IFR flight
plan listing the instructor as PIC. Later in the plane, again with the
instructor monitoring the conversation, you call Ground Control (or
Clearance Delivery as appropriate) for the IFR clearance, copy it, and read
it back for verification. Then fly the route cleared (with enroute
amendments as they inevitably occur) and you will have a perfectly legal
practice with IFR flight in the real world. It's all legal as the
instructor is with you at each step, and he is PIC for the flight according
to the FARs.
This is what my instructor and I did on my long cross country and it
provided excellent training. The best part was how to handle a motor-mouth
controller who issued a complete new (amended) route clearance for the
second leg of my flight immediately following my missed approach while in a
climbing turn. [My response: "304 right turn to 330, climbing to 4,000,
standby on the rest of the clearance". I asked for the rest of the
clearance when level at 4,000 feet.]
Separate subject is how to log the flight in your logbook. PIC time for you
is the entire flight minus any time in actual IMC. Simulated and actual
instrument times are the actual times under the hood or in IMC respectively.
Skip Guild
PPSEL-IA
Skip Guild
...
>Javier Henderson
>j...@crash.cts.com
p.s., Are you really a pilot associated with "CRASH".cts.com ??? :-)
Jeffrey Dunkle
> student IFR pilot, not currently IFR rated - grt]
>>and fly it, including the approach, etc., by myself? Of course, in VFR
conditi
>ons.
>
>>The idea is to practice everything involved with an IFR flight.
>
>Sorry, but the answer is no.
The regs do say, you can't file unless you're rated and current, but you
can, many times, behave in the system as if you filed...almost. You can
take along a rated friend who acts as PIC,file, and you do the
flying.......or you can fly VFR and request flight following.
I did this all the time while practicing for my instrument ride, often
under the hood with a (not necessarily rated) safety pilot. Often, we'd
pick a place with a published approach, a restaurant, and, if possible
more than 50 NM away. On departure, I'd put on my hood, call the
appropriate facility (usually departure or the TRACON) request VFR
flight following to my destination, and go. Well before arrival I'd
request a practice apporach and get...." cleared for the approach,
maintain VFR..." most of the time.
The main difference during the flight was I'd have to be at a legal VFR
altitude.....(something) + 500 feet.
On such an excursion i'd get legal simulated instrument time, legal
PIC/XC time, practice in ATC and log a "simulated" approach. The only
additional cost was buying my safety pilot's lunch.
Of course, its legal, though perhaps not advisable, to do any/all of the
above alone, as long as you don't wear a hood. You can also just fly
practice approches VFR any time you wish, as long as the controllers can
fit you in. All you gotta do is ask em.
Jeff Dunkle
Kerry Kurasaki
>Only an instrument rated pilot can file an IFR flight plan.
Robert Withrow
sk...@mitre.org (Skip Guild) writes:
| [logging] PIC time for you is the entire flight minus any
| time in actual IMC.
Please note that the faq contradicts this assertion. quoting:
Q6: I'm a private pilot. How should I log time in instrument conditions?
A: The key concept here, and in most logging questions, is that the
requirements for LOGGING pilot time (in FAR 61.51) are completely
distinct from the requirements for ACTING as pilot in command.
If
(1) you are the sole manipulator of the controls, and
(2) you have at least a private certificate for that category
and class of aircraft
then
you may log the time as pilot in command.
It does _not_ matter whether or not you are in visual or instrument
conditions, nor whether or not you have a "high-performance" endorsement
and are flying an retractable-gear airplane. (If you are flying in IMC
and are not instrument rated, you must have a current, instrument rated
pilot who is rated to fly the aircraft in the plane with you. The
instrument-rated pilot then _acts_ as pilot in command while you fly and
log time as sole manipulator; the other pilot may also log the time spent
in actual instrument conditions as pilot in command.)
Please note also that I posed this to a DFE who agreed with Geoff's analysis
with one exception: He claimed that if you were doing this in a retrac
*without* the endorsement you *wouldn't* be ``rated'' for the aircraft. I
think Geoff is right and the DFE is wrong, but there it is...
--
Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 598 4480, Fax: +1 617 598 4430, Net: wi...@rwwa.COM
R.W. Withrow Associates, 21 Railroad Ave, Swampscott MA 01907-1821 USA
sco...@wkuvx1.bitnet
This is the way I understood it. Interestingly enough during my
inst checkride with DE (Robert Riney) He asked me to "file".
I indicated that I understood that I was not allowed this,
and he told me that "in this case it's legal".
I was not going to argue with him, so I filed, with him
listening. This was about 30 mos ago. During the same checkride,
I noticed that he was not wearing the shoulder belt just prior
to takeoff; I informed him of this, and he insisted that he just
wear the lapbelt; I was somewhat suspicious at being set up at
this point, but did not argue ( the other inst. candidate who
came with me that day got into a heated argument with the DE
about this, and was finally convinced when the DE asked: "do you
want to take the checkride or not?)
Anyway I passed, so I asked no questions.
--
Chris Scott, C/E Public Radio, Western KY Univ, (502) 745-3834
SCO...@WKUVX1.BITNET fx off: 745-2084 fx hm: 781-1232
Javier Henderson
: In article <1993Jan26.1...@onetouch.COM> ph...@onetouch.COM (Philip D. Turner) writes:
: >Only an instrument rated pilot can file an IFR flight plan.
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ AND current (6/6/6)
Others have replied similarly, so I'm not picking on Kerry.
My instructor has always had me file, with my name, for all the x-countries
we've done 'ifr', even those we did in actual IMC. Am I to expect some dark
suited guys wearing sunglasses after dark knowcking at my door? Or what?
ThankS
-
Javier Henderson
j...@crash.cts.com
^^^^^ yes, I'm a pilot and use a node called 'crash'...
Phil Fernandez
>In article <1993Jan25.112830.24208@crash> j...@crash.cts.com (Javier Henderson) writes:
>>
>>My question to the fellow netters is...can I file an IFR flight plan, and
>>fly it, including the approach, etc., by myself? Of course, in VFR conditions.
>to the FARs.
>Separate subject is how to log the flight in your logbook. PIC time for you
>is the entire flight minus any time in actual IMC. Simulated and actual
>instrument times are the actual times under the hood or in IMC respectively.
You should be able to log 100% of your time as PIC, including actual
IMC, based on the "sole manipulator of the controls" provision.
pmf
pp-asmel-ia
mooney n5632j
Phil Fernandez
>Kerry Kurasaki (ke...@Ingres.COM) wrote:
>: In article <1993Jan26.1...@onetouch.COM> ph...@onetouch.COM (Philip D. Turner) writes:
>: >Only an instrument rated pilot can file an IFR flight plan.
>: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ AND current (6/6/6)
>
>Others have replied similarly, so I'm not picking on Kerry.
>
>My instructor has always had me file, with my name, for all the x-countries
>we've done 'ifr', even those we did in actual IMC. Am I to expect some dark
>suited guys wearing sunglasses after dark knowcking at my door? Or what?
I filed regularly, voice w/ FSS and DUAT, under my name, during my
training. I always did this at the direction of my CFII, but never
with him listening or participating in the actual filing process.
This is common practice for IFR students where I learned -- West
Valley Flying Club at PAO.
Also, when I took the IA check ride, my DE had me plan the flight and
file, and didn't participate in that process between giving me a
destination, and getting in the plane with me to fly it.
pmf
pp-asmel-ia
mooney n5632j
Reece R. Pollack
[...description of flying IFR with instructor as 'passenger' deleted...]
I did this too, and I found it most helpful. My instructor let me take on
as much of the workload as I could handle, and would bail me out just before
I'd bust an altitude or clearance or such. Excellent training, if you're
confident enough to handle the stress.
|>Separate subject is how to log the flight in your logbook. PIC time for you
|>is the entire flight minus any time in actual IMC. Simulated and actual
|>instrument times are the actual times under the hood or in IMC respectively.
As I understand it, you can log PIC in IMC if there's a CFII in the right
seat, but not if it's just a brave instrument rated pilot. The DE checked
my logbook and accepted all my 9+ hours IMC X-C time as PIC X-C time without
question. I know he looked pretty carefully, because we had a discussion
about whether the simulators I 'flew' were approved for IFR training.
--
Reece R. Pollack
PP-ASEL-IA -- Octopus Flying Club (based GAI)
Skip Guild
>Separate subject is how to log the flight in your logbook. PIC time for
>you is the entire flight minus any time in actual IMC. Simulated and
>actual instrument times are the actual times under the hood or in IMC
respectively.
Numerous replies in the form of:
>As I don't want to start a what-to-log-as-pic-time fest again, I don't
>post this, but maybe you rethink it and then repost ?
>You can log any time that you handle the controls, as long as you are
>appropriately rated in class and category, which in this case you are.
>So as long as you actually manage to handle the controls in IMC, why could
>you not log that time ?
To which I reply MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA.
I stand corrected. I know better.
Skip Guild
PPSEL, IA
John Bryan
^ legally
I'm sure lots of non-instrument-rated (or non-current instrument-rated)
pilots are capable of filing an IFR flight plan. They're just prohibited
by the regulations from doing so.
:)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
John T. Bryan | e-mail: br...@intellistor.com
Intellistor | UUCP: ...!csn!arrayb!bryan
Longmont, CO | USPS: 2402 Clover Basin Drive, 80503
(303) 682-6527 | PP-ASEL/IA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Daniel R. Masys
>
>I'm sure lots of non-instrument-rated (or non-current instrument-rated)
>pilots are capable of filing an IFR flight plan. They're just prohibited
>by the regulations from doing so.
>
who had for many years filed IFR flight plans and flown IFR without
getting the training or the rating. His luck ran out. His family's
luck ran out when the insurance company discovered that the fatal flight
was in violation of the FARs.
Dan Masys
ma...@nlm.nih.gov
Steve Millendorf
fly a complex aircraft without ever being trained in it because it is a
complex aircraft ENDORSEMENT, and not a rating (it doesn't go on your
certificate).
From what I understand of the situation, you can have 2 PIC's -- one under
part 1 who is responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft, and
the other PIC is under part 61, as the sole manipulator of the controls.
Steve Millendorf
ste...@hauppaugeNY.NCR.COM
John Stephens
[ stuff deleted ] During the same checkri
...I noticed that he was not wearing the shoulder belt just pr
...to takeoff; I informed him of this, and he insisted that he j
...wear the lapbelt; I was somewhat suspicious at being set up
...this point, but did not argue
I too had a DE on my PP and IR checkrides that declined to wear
the shoulder harness. The first time I too was a bit suspicious
that this was a set-up, but she assured me that it was not, and
that the shoulder harness rode too high up against her neck for
safety (and comfort).
The second time, I merely reminded her of the requirement, and
acknowledged her refusal with no further discussion.
Both checkrides were successful!
********************************************************************
* . *
* John Stephens ._______|_______. Montgomery County Airpark *
* PP-ASEL/IA \(*)/ ( GAI ) *
* C-172P N51078 o/ \o Gaithersburg, Maryland *
* *
********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.
Subject: Re: Filing IFR as a stude
Summar
Expire
References: <1993Jan25.112830.24208@crash> <1993Jan26.1...@onetouch.COM> <1993Jan26.1...@pony.Ingres.COM> <1993Jan26....@wkuvx1.bitn
Sende
Followup-T
Distributio
Organization: Severn Companies, Inc., Lanham, MD 20
Keywords:
In article <1993Jan26....@wkuvx1.bitnet> sco...@wkuvx1.bitnet writ
[ stuff deleted ] During the same checkri
...I noticed that he was not wearing the shoulder belt just pr
...to takeoff; I informed him of this, and he insisted that he j
...wear the lapbelt; I was somewhat suspicious at being set up
...this point, but did not argue
I too had a DE on my PP and IR checkrides that declined to wear
the shoulder harness. The first time I too was a bit suspicious
that this was a set-up, but she assured me that it was not, and
that the shoulder harness rode too high up against her neck for
safety (and comfort).
The second time, I merely reminded her of the requirement, and
acknowledged her refusal with no further discussion.
Both checkrides were successful!
********************************************************************
* . *
* John Stephens ._______|_______. Montgomery County Airpark *
* PP-ASEL/IA \(*)/ ( GAI ) *
* C-172P N51078 o/ \o Gaithersburg, Maryland *
* *
********************************************************************
Ron Natalie
> pilots are capable of filing an IFR flight plan. They're just prohibited
> by the regulations from doing so.
Actually, filing isn't technically illegal either, operating on one is.
You can call up duat and file to your hearts content (I'm sure they will
get pissed off at you eventually and figure out a way to stop this). I
unfortunately wasn't able to file for the Phillipines with the remark
"Ferdinand Marcos aboard."
-Ron