Navaid Identification
Andrew M. Sarangan
During IFR flights, and particularly during IFR checkrides, what is
the accepted procedure for identifying navaids ? My CFII told me that
just listening to the identification signal is sufficient, although
strictly speaking one should listen to the morse code and make sure
that it is the right station. I don't know my morse code, and I am not
too thrilled about learning it euther, so I am hoping that he is right.
Any suggestions ?
--
Andrew Sarangan
PP-ASEL
Ray F. Jones
Andrew,
Identify it. Otherwise you could be tuned to a station or receiving a
station other than the one you want. The Morse code ID is on the charts,
so you don't have to learn it, just look at the chart. I usually jot the
Morse down on my flight log so I don't have to search.
Ray
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Ray F. Jones
rfj...@ix.netcom.com
SATCO Deputy Training Director
SATCO15
ICQ 4724407
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Roy Smith
sara...@unm.edu (Andrew M. Sarangan) wrote:
> During IFR flights, and particularly during IFR checkrides, what is
> the accepted procedure for identifying navaids ? My CFII told me that
> just listening to the identification signal is sufficient, although
> strictly speaking one should listen to the morse code and make sure
> that it is the right station.
Your instructor actually told you this? Are you serious? I hope you just
misunderstood, because if that's what he's really teaching, it's time to
switch instructors.
The whole idea of listening to the morse ID is to confirm that you've got
the right station dialied in, and that it's working. More than once I've
mis-dialed a frequency and accidentally tuned in another nearby VOR. Only
listening to the beeps alerted me. You could have even dialed in the
right frequency, and the thing could be transmitting - . ... - (TEST),
which means it's busted, or out of service for testing, or something like
that.
You don't have to learn morse. Just reading dots and dashes on the chart
as you listen to the signal is good enough. Eventually, you will discover
that you'll be picking it up as you go along.
Larry Stone
In article <6558g4$c7...@musca.unm.edu>, sara...@unm.edu (Andrew M.
Sarangan) wrote:
>During IFR flights, and particularly during IFR checkrides, what is
>the accepted procedure for identifying navaids ? My CFII told me that
>just listening to the identification signal is sufficient, although
>strictly speaking one should listen to the morse code and make sure
>that it is the right station. I don't know my morse code, and I am not
>too thrilled about learning it euther, so I am hoping that he is right.
There's no need to learn Morse Code - you just need to be able to match
the dot-dash pattern to what's on the chart.
The lapboard I use has the full alphabet for when you're trying to figure
out an unknown station. I've only had it happen once - departed the LAX
are heading for the SFO area. LA Center gave me a heading with "when able,
Direct Big Sur". Dialed in Big Sur, set the CDI to the assigned heading,
got a From indication (note: situational awareness told me something was
up long before we got to the identification stage). Found it was Julian
(JLI) east of San Diego on the same frequency.
That was easy to notice because of the from. But what if you're flying to
a navaid and inadvertently use the frequency of a nearby navaid (easy to
do on a crowded chart)? You're be getting an ID but it won't be the right
ID.
--
-- Larry Stone --- lst...@wwa.com
http://www.wwa.com/~lstone/
Schaumburg, IL, USA
I work for United Airlines but never, never speak for them
DWH
Navaid identification is easy. And on all IFR flights it is
manadatory. If you look on the Low Enroute, each Navaid Box shows
the Morse Code spelled out for you. For Example:
117.2 MLU -- .-.. ..-
You see that Da's and Dit's. With that you can listen to the Nav Aid
and make sure the Dit's and Da's match up. It would be a bitch if you
ended up Navigating to the wrong NavAid. Once a VOR,DME, LOC, etc are
identified, you can cut them off. A NBD id'er needs to remain on
while you are using it as a Nav Aid. If you can no longer hear the
NBD, you cannot use it as a Navaid.
For your checkride, ID each and every Navaid used. You can say this
is the proper ID because it matchs the Dits and Da's in the Low
Enroute or App Plate. There is no need to learn the code since it is
all spelled out on the Low Enrote or the App Plate.
Hope this helps,
DWH
sara...@unm.edu (Andrew M. Sarangan) wrote:
>
>During IFR flights, and particularly during IFR checkrides, what is
>the accepted procedure for identifying navaids ? My CFII told me that
>just listening to the identification signal is sufficient, although
>strictly speaking one should listen to the morse code and make sure
>that it is the right station. I don't know my morse code, and I am not
>too thrilled about learning it euther, so I am hoping that he is right.
>
P@Pilot
In order to positively identify a NAVAID, you must listen to the morse code.
The codes can be found on the charts (Except the hi charts in the US I
believe).
It does not happen very often with VOR's but it has happened to me a few
times using TACAN, where the TACAN receiver has locked on to another NAVAID
using the same channel. The receiver will lock on to the strongest signal it
receives.
-Pat
WeymouthMC
When down for maintenance/problem, technicians will turn off ID on the
localizer (glide slope has no id) or the VOR depending on which they are
working on.
The TACAN, on the other hand, has to have some type of ID going out at all
times, even when down for maint. (system has to have a constant duty cycle).
For this reason, we change the code to TEST.
Don't use the navaids in either case. The needles may move, however, accuracy
and integrity are unknown.
Mark
NAVAIDS Technician
Visit my site at: http://members.aol.com/weymouthmc/
P@Pilot
>The TACAN, on the other hand, has to have some type of ID going out at all
>times, even when down for maint. (system has to have a constant duty
cycle).
>For this reason, we change the code to TEST.
I never knew this about the TACAN. I was always wondering why it was still
transmitting when undergoing maintenance... Now I know!
One thing though... I have never noticed the change in Ident letters to
TEST. At home here thay have always been transmitting UMJ...
-Pat
QFI Canadian Air Force
Ron Natalie
Roy Smith wrote:
> The whole idea of listening to the morse ID is to confirm that you've
> got the right station dialied in, and that it's working. More than
> once I've mis-dialed a frequency and accidentally tuned in another
> nearby VOR. Only listening to the beeps alerted me. You could have
> even dialed in the right frequency, and the thing could be
> transmitting - . ... - (TEST), which means it's busted, or out of
> service for testing, or something like that.
Absolutely. One day during Margy's primary training she
and her instructor were having trouble tracking the EMI
VOR. They got the idea to check the ID, and they couldn't
figure out what they had. This was amusing to me since
Margy has an Advanced Class amateur radio license which
she had to demonstrate 13 WPM morse code proficiency (VOR's
are really slow, like 2 WPM). I finally couldn't restrain
myself from the backseat and pointed out that it was
sending TEST...
It only takes a couple of weeks of concerted study to
learn Morse Code well enough to ID VOR's. While it's
not strictly required (as the ID's are on the chart),
it makes things much more convenient especially if
you're trying to go the otherway (you're listening
to the ident but want to know what it is).
Hilton Goldstein
Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> Roy Smith wrote:
>
> > The whole idea of listening to the morse ID is to confirm that you've
> > got the right station dialied in, and that it's working. More than
> > once I've mis-dialed a frequency and accidentally tuned in another
> > nearby VOR. Only listening to the beeps alerted me. You could have
> > even dialed in the right frequency, and the thing could be
> > transmitting - . ... - (TEST), which means it's busted, or out of
> > service for testing, or something like that.
>
> Absolutely.
[zap]
> It only takes a couple of weeks of concerted study to
> learn Morse Code well enough to ID VOR's. While it's
> not strictly required (as the ID's are on the chart),
> it makes things much more convenient especially if
> you're trying to go the otherway (you're listening
> to the ident but want to know what it is).
I agree with you. I learned Morse Code as a challenge (read: Hilton was
bored one day) and it helps tremendously. While identing a station, you
can be doing other stuff instead of head down in the chart. You can
count on the DE tuning in a station and asking you to read the morse on
the checkride as a little test between approaches.
BTW: The way I taught myself was for 90% of them, to figure some way of
remembering the morse and not just learning it parrot fashion - more
like wood-pecker fashion! :) For example, we should all know SOS -
that's 2 down. Then there's Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, you know how
that starts? What's the morse code for V? Sneeky. V is ...-, and it
has three vertices. U is the same but only has two vertices, and its
morse code is, wait for it, ..-, it's not too difficult, especially if
you only learn the ones required for your area. The SF Bay Area has
tons of "S", so that helps; SJC, SNS, STS, SAC, SAU, SGD etc.
Hilton
--
Hilton Goldstein.............................hilton@sgi.com
650-933-5254 (phone).....................(fax) 650-390-6159
M/S 1L-945, 2011 N. Shoreline Blvd, Mountain View, CA 94043
http://reality.sgi.com/hilton
Objects in Mir are closer than they appear.
Keith Arnold
> Absolutely. One day during Margy's primary training she
> and her instructor were having trouble tracking the EMI
> VOR. They got the idea to check the ID, and they couldn't
> figure out what they had. This was amusing to me since
> Margy has an Advanced Class amateur radio license which
> she had to demonstrate 13 WPM morse code proficiency (VOR's
> are really slow, like 2 WPM). I finally couldn't restrain
> myself from the backseat and pointed out that it was
> sending TEST...
>
> learn Morse Code well enough to ID VOR's. While it's
> not strictly required (as the ID's are on the chart),
> it makes things much more convenient especially if
> you're trying to go the otherway (you're listening
> to the ident but want to know what it is).
VOR by their voice xmission. Couldn't do it. It was garbled. The code
was the only way.
--
ôżô - Keith - N3431R - Southern California
Petri T Suominen
Andrew M. Sarangan wrote:
>
> During IFR flights, and particularly during IFR checkrides, what is
> the accepted procedure for identifying navaids ? My CFII told me that
> just listening to the identification signal is sufficient, although
> strictly speaking one should listen to the morse code and make sure
> that it is the right station. I don't know my morse code, and I am not
> too thrilled about learning it euther, so I am hoping that he is right.
>
> Any suggestions ?
Over here you *must* learn morse code in order to
get the rating.
Oh well, I forgot it already, lucky for me the identifiers
are usually printed in the charts (in dots and dashes that is).
I wouldn't trust any other means of identification.
One thought once came to mind though. Instead of morse code
why don't they repeat the identifier in radio alphabets ?
i.e. "Juliet Foxtrot Kilo" in place of dots and dashes.
Historic reason is probably the fact that it used to be a lot
easier to generate morse code than speech, but that's not the
case anymore (well, it's still easier but it's not an issue
as speech generators aren't that expensive anymore)
> --
> Andrew Sarangan
> PP-ASEL
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Petri Suominen Helsinki Finland R178 10.9 NM HEL VOR
mailto:pe...@jackpot.clinet.fi mailto:petri.s...@ray.fi
GSM/SMS +358-500-476250
* jackpot.clinet.fi is powered by Linux, the choice of a GNU generation
Edward A Williams
Andrew M. Sarangan wrote:
>
> During IFR flights, and particularly during IFR checkrides, what is
> the accepted procedure for identifying navaids ? My CFII told me that
> just listening to the identification signal is sufficient, although
> strictly speaking one should listen to the morse code and make sure
> that it is the right station. I don't know my morse code, and I am not
> too thrilled about learning it euther, so I am hoping that he is right.
>
> Any suggestions ?
>
> Andrew Sarangan
> PP-ASEL
Just listening for the existence of an ident is not good enough IMO.
You are just as likely to tune in the *wrong* navaid as to tune in one
that is non functional. This can get you into big trouble. I learned
morse code in the Boy Scouts, so I don't have to refer to the chart
(assuming I know the identifier of the navaid), however the code is
available there.
It's time consuming to identify properly and you may have higher
priority items to attend to.
I teach:
Tune in navaid.
Turn on nav aid audio.
Set OBS and sanity check reading.
Attend to urgent business.
Get the ident at the next opportunity and verify on the chart.
Turn off the ident (except NDBs where leave on)
The nagging of the ident reminds you to check it.
Ed CFII (LVK and HWD)
http://www.best.com/~williams/
PiperDrivr
> One thought once came to mind though. Instead of morse code
> why don't they repeat the identifier in radio alphabets ?
> i.e. "Juliet Foxtrot Kilo" in place of dots and dashes.
The way it is now, we set up our transmitters to transmit for a few
microseconds, (give or take) to enable the dit or dash to transmit. Adding
voice would probably be an expensive modification, although if you have an FSS
remoted to a VOR, you could talk to them, to see if you were receiving the
right one, but then again, you could still talk over it, with the navigation
portion of the signal inop.........
Al Martinelli
Clinton, Utah
PP-ASEL
Ron Workman
Some VOR's do have audio ID -- I believe the Seattle VOR (SEA)broadcasts
"Seattle VOR" as well as it's ... . .- in code.
Ron Workman out TIW
PiperDrivr wrote in message
<19971203010...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
Gorman
Ron Workman wrote:
>
> Some VOR's do have audio ID
Nice article in the new Private Pilot on an easy way to learn Morse
Code, including a website address so you can practice:
http://terra.org/journey/comm/morsecode/morsegame.html
Unfotunately, every time I try to use it my "program performs and
illegal operation" and shuts down. Hope you have better luck
Everett M. Greene
In article <65ei9n$lu6$1...@news.uk.ibm.com> "Steve Pick" <steve...@nowspammvnet.ibm.com> writes:
> Ron Natalie wrote in message <34799E...@sensor.com>...
> >Roy Smith wrote:
> >> The whole idea of listening to the morse ID is to confirm that you've
> >> got the right station dialied in, and that it's working. More than
> >> once I've mis-dialed a frequency and accidentally tuned in another
> >> nearby VOR. Only listening to the beeps alerted me. You could have
> >> even dialed in the right frequency, and the thing could be
> >> transmitting - . ... - (TEST), which means it's busted, or out of
> >> service for testing, or something like that.
> >and her instructor were having trouble tracking the EMI
> >VOR. They got the idea to check the ID, and they couldn't
> >figure out what they had. This was amusing to me since
> >Margy has an Advanced Class amateur radio license which
> >she had to demonstrate 13 WPM morse code proficiency (VOR's
> >are really slow, like 2 WPM). I finally couldn't restrain
> >myself from the backseat and pointed out that it was
> >sending TEST...
> >
> >It only takes a couple of weeks of concerted study to
> >learn Morse Code well enough to ID VOR's. While it's
> >not strictly required (as the ID's are on the chart),
> >it makes things much more convenient especially if
> >you're trying to go the otherway (you're listening
> >to the ident but want to know what it is).
>
> more positive. I was taught to identify everything, listing to the Ident
> twice, and even to listen to the DME ident after identing the VOR or ILS.
> Better safe than sorry.
> A word of caution, if you guys in the US really get TEST from an
> out of service navaid, beware if you come fly in the UK, for like all
> the other nav aids a beacon on test will transmit a three character ident,
> in this case TST. Took me a while to realise the first time..!
Speaking of learning Morse code, I checked the site someone posted
a few days ago which was supposed to have a "neat" method for
learning Morse code. You need a Jave-equipped browser to make
any use of the site's Morse code thing.
Scott Methvin
I have the tapes from Radio Shack for learning Morse Code. The set
includes a slow set of 2 tapes for beginning and a faster set for a more
advanced set. The set was less than $20 and the fast drills are really
unnecessary for aviation.
I am only able to occasionally study, but the way it is structured is
pretty good. It seems easier for me to learn the code not
alphabetically but rather in matched pairs. (E., T-) (A,N)...
NuMorse is a shareware program out there you could use also.
Scott Methvin
Andrew M. Sarangan
In article <19971206.7...@mojaveg.ridgecrest.ca.us>,
Everett M. Greene <moj...@ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>
>Speaking of learning Morse code, I checked the site someone posted
>a few days ago which was supposed to have a "neat" method for
>learning Morse code. You need a Jave-equipped browser to make
>any use of the site's Morse code thing.
As per suggestions from everyone here and the article on the latest Flying
magazine, I took it upon myself to learn morse. I started reading off
license plates in morse as I was driving. In about 2 or 3 hours I was
good enough to do basic translation. Today on my IFR flight I
was surprised at the enormous convenience of knowing morse code!
Learning morse code as used by Amateur Radio people might be a different
ball of game. But the morse we are talking about can be mastered in
one afternoon.
--
Andrew Sarangan
PP-ASEL
Gorman
Everett M. Greene wrote:
> Speaking of learning Morse code, I checked the site someone posted
> a few days ago which was supposed to have a "neat" method for
> learning Morse code. You need a Jave-equipped browser to make
> any use of the site's Morse code thing.
Actually, what I said was that Private Pilot magazine had a pretty cool
article that has enabled me to learn just about the entire alphabet in
Morse Code, using their memory aids.
I haven't been able to get that site working, and I was under the
impression that Netscape Navigator 3 did have this Java hoo hah. Am I
wrong?
jo...@mcdata.com
In article <348A21...@ix.netcom.com>,
Gor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> I haven't been able to get that site working, and I was under the
> impression that Netscape Navigator 3 did have this Java hoo hah. Am I
> wrong?
Netscape 3.x does support Java. Check your Options/Network
Preferences/Language settings. Both Java checkboxes should be checked.
Otherwise you might re-install Netscape. It seems to me that Setup asks
about Java support. Just remember to copy your bookmark.htm file to a
safe place first.
John J. Miller
jo...@mcdata.com
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Jim Pauk
Gorman wrote:
> Actually, what I said was that Private Pilot magazine had a pretty cool
> article that has enabled me to learn just about the entire alphabet in
> Morse Code, using their memory aids.
Then you should know the Morse Code song:
"She was only a telegrapher's daughter but she didit didit didit."
Gorman
Jim Pauk wrote:
> Then you should know the Morse Code song:
> "She was only a telegrapher's daughter but she didit didit didit."
-.-. ..- - .