IFR check ride in IMC?
Martin Esche
My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
Is he right, and, why?
Martin
mike
He's wrong. The last time I checked the FAA policy was that you had to have twice the field minimums.
I took my CFII check ride when the weather was 1000 and 1 with an inspector that I had never met before. Of course, he got to ride i=
n the left seat. For me, it was the easiest checkride I ever took because I only had to wear the hood for only a few minutes on the=
approaches. The rest of the time was in nice, wet clouds.
Of course, I feel that it is any DE's perogative not to fly if he doesn't want to. But don't blame it on the rules.
Mike Weller
Bob Noel
In article <01bbc75e$d5b0af00$6142afc2@default>, "Martin Esche"
<mes...@msn.de> wrote:
> My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
> told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> Is he right, and, why?
I believe so....as I understand it, the primary reason is that
the examiner would be flying in IMC on his/her own ticket. Thus,
any violation would fail you and violate him/her.
--
Bob Noel
why do people over load their
webpages with unnecessary gifs?
Frank Nail
Martin Esche wrote:
>
> My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
> told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> Is he right, and, why?
You are considered PIC for the check ride, and therefore can't take the
check ride in IMC as you must be rated (IFR) in order to be PIC in IMC
conditions. Note: the check airman need not be current ifr in order to
give the check ride.
--
Frank Nail Trans-National Air Group
Phone 810-814-0977 Fax 810-814-0976
E-Mail <tna...@mail.idt.net>
Home Page <http://ally.ios.com/~tnag19>
John Prickett
In article <01bbc75e$d5b0af00$6142afc2@default>,
Martin Esche <mes...@msn.de> wrote:
>My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
>told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
>Is he right, and, why?
>Martin
as much as i dislike _always_ and _never_ and _no FAA examiner_,
i would say that for the most part your instructor is correct.
i don't know that i could say 'officially' why, but i will give
my opinion --
your instructor has flown with you for a fair number of hours,
most probably in the same plane. he knows your abilities, and
has a certain comfort level with them. the examiner doesn't
know you from adam, and he is probably unwilling to 'trust
his life' to your unproven expertise. just my guess.
i did do a cfii renewal checkride in imc once, but it was with
a d.e. that i had used for two checkrides i had taken and had
sent 3-4 students his way. so, he knew not only my flying, but
the product i sent him.
mho,
john
--
'i'd rather be flying'
john.p...@amd.com
Patrick W. P. Dirks
> My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
> told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> Is he right, and, why?
Well, that seems a bit broad. I took my instrument checkride with a local
D.E. recently and it was real IMC except for the parts where we broke out
on the various approaches. It was the worst weather we'd had in months
with light rains and high cloud tops (severe by California standards :-).
I see no reason to be so paranoid anyway. Aside from the fact that your
instructor has to certify that, in his opinion at least, you're ready to
fly off into IMC the next day the examiner has access to all the control
and instruments and could certainly intervene if they thought you weren't
in control.
YMMV.
Hope that helps,
-Pat Dirks.
gde...@dbtech.net
Yes, that's right. You can't take your checkride unless it's VMC because you are the Pilot-in-command
during the test. As such, you are not licensed to fly in anything but VMC until the successful
completion of the test.
Roy Smith
mike <mike.weller%msfc...@x400gw.msfc.nasa.gov> writes:
> The last time I checked the FAA policy was that you had to have twice the
> field minimums.
Just curious, where is this FAA policy written? Or is it one of those magic
"well, come on down to the FSDO and let's have a cup of coffee and a cigar
in the back room and chat about it" kinds of things? :-)
As far as I can tell, the "official FAA policy" on flight tests is contained
in the Pilot Examiner's Handbook (8710.3B). In the section on conducting an
Instrument Rating Certification (i.e. what normal people would all their
"instrument checkride"), the only thing I can find which even mentions IFR
flight plans is the section that talks about doing the test in planes not
equipped for IFR flight. It says, in part:
It may be extremely difficult for the applicant to satisfy all
of the requirements for the instrument rating in an aircraft
not equipped in accordance with FAR sect 91.205(d), however,
it is the airman's prerogative [sic] to attempt the test with
any aircraft or combination of aircraft that meet the
requiements of FAR sect 61.45. Additionally, if the aircraft
is not equipped for IFR, and instrument flight plan cannot be
filed.
That last sentence certainly suggests to me that the checkride can be done
under IFR. I don't see anything in the handbook that say you can't do it in
zero-zero conditions if you want (and the examiner agrees).
PS -- I could just see an applicant saying to the examiner, "well, we'll do
the ILS and VOR approaches in the Skyhawk, but it doesn't have an ADF, so
we'll do the NDB approach in the Archer, and just for fun, we'll take the
Pitts up for the unusual attitudes"
--
Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Roy Smith
"Martin Esche" <mes...@msn.de> wrote:
> My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
> told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> Is he right, and, why?
On my IFR checkride, the examiner insisted it had to be VFR weather. The
reason he gave is that there are some maneuvers (unusual attitudes,
stalls, etc) which can't be done IMC.
However, that's not the whole story. There are lots of days where you
couldn't do the X/C stuff and the approaches VFR, but could still find
enough good weather somewhere to do the 20 minutes of airwork required.
The real reason, I think, is that it's a CYA thing. If you file IFR, it
has to be done with the examiner's name on the flight plan, which means he
can no longer pretend he's not PIC for liability concerns.
The fact is, however, that there are plenty of examiners out there who are
perfectly happy to give instrument checkrides in IMC, and I'm sure you
will find many people who took them that way.
John Stephens
NOT TRUE. Most examiners want VMC for some of the test elements. We were
definitely IMC for a portion of my instrument checkride.
******************************************************************
* . *
* John Stephens ._______|_______. Montgomery County Airpark *
* COMM-ASEL \(*)/ ( GAI ) *
* C-172P N51078 o/ \o Gaithersburg, Maryland *
* *
******************************************************************
Hank Blackstock
Martin Esche wrote:
>
> My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
> told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> Is he right, and, why?
He can, but there are some of the requied manuvers that have to be done
in VMC. The first time I scheduled my ride it was maginal VFR. The
examiner said we could go but I declined. I would probably not be a good
idea. Also you would have to file IFR under the examiners name. Most
would probably say no.
Hank
Glen E. Thompson
It depends on the examiner and how well he knows your instructor. I took
my checkride in IMC. The DE knew my CFII well. There were only a few
instructors that he would allow this with.
--
Glen E. Thompson
glen.t...@worldnet.att.net
'89 RX-7 GTUs
'77 Piper Lance
Martin Esche <mes...@msn.de> wrote in article
<01bbc75e$d5b0af00$6142afc2@default>...
Chris and Judy Matras
Allan Marain wrote:
>
> gde...@dbtech.net's vorpal message to All on 01 Nov 96 12:32:24
> about "IFR check ride in IMC?" inspires this:
>
> gd> Yes, that's right. You can't take your checkride unless it's VMC
> gd> because you are the Pilot-in-command during the test. As such, you are
> gd> not licensed to fly in anything but VMC until the successful completion
> gd> of the test.
>
A good friend of mine took his IFR check ride in IMC.
Allan Marain
rwn...@tiac.net's vorpal message to All on 01 Nov 96 16:35:25
about "IFR check ride in IMC?" inspires this:
rw> In article <01bbc75e$d5b0af00$6142afc2@default>, "Martin Esche"
rw> <mes...@msn.de> wrote:
> My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
> told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> Is he right, and, why?
rw> I believe so....as I understand it, the primary reason is that
rw> the examiner would be flying in IMC on his/her own ticket. Thus,
rw> any violation would fail you and violate him/her.
I do not think that's the reason. Remember that, on a
checkride, unless otherwise agreed, the examinee is the
PIC. (This is so even for the private checkride.)
IMHO, more likely the reason is that there are maneuvers
in PTS that must be covered that cannot be done while on
an IFR clearance.
... If she won't live forever, why give her a diamond?
--
|Fidonet: Allan Marain 1:107/101
|Internet: Allan....@roost.metronj.org
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his/her own.
Jonathan Weiswasser
Martin Esche wrote:
>
> My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
> told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> Is he right, and, why?
As far as I know, the DE has the ability to pass you on a check ride after examining you on
all, some, or none of the tasks (obviously that never happens). I took my Instrument check ride
in weather that was so bad that we missed the first approach into the airport from which we
departed but made it down the second time. The truth is that the experience itself became twice
as educational, which, after all, if you are adequately prepared, should be what I check ride is
all about. Moreover, all this huff and puff about the differences between simulated IMC versus
real IMC does have some truth to it. It was nice to know that I could perform well under the
stress of a check ride in the worst weather that I had experienced up to that point in my
training.
Jon Weiswasser, M.D.
ASEL, IA
Allan Marain
gde...@dbtech.net's vorpal message to All on 01 Nov 96 12:32:24
about "IFR check ride in IMC?" inspires this:
gd> Yes, that's right. You can't take your checkride unless it's VMC
gd> because you are the Pilot-in-command during the test. As such, you are
gd> not licensed to fly in anything but VMC until the successful completion
gd> of the test.
Half true. You are PIC except that, by prior arrangement,
the examiner can be PIC.
... Brilliant...Genius...Best message of 1996!
Bill Urmson
On 1 Nov 1996 00:25:54 GMT, "Martin Esche" <mes...@msn.de> wrote:
>My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
>told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
>Is he right, and, why?
>Martin
Because if you look at the PTS, you'll see you must perform Steep
turns, slow flight, a hold, etc. The only way you can do that stuff is
VFR. If you were in actual or on an IFR flight plan, you' d have to
be actually going somewhere. Chances are then, you'll shoot the
approaches in VFR, too.
-Bill
Michal Hustad
> >
>
> > told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> >
> check ride in IMC as you must be rated (IFR) in order to be PIC in IMC
> conditions. Note: the check airman need not be current ifr in order to
> give the check ride.
> If what was stated in the previous posting is true, how come so many of
us took our IFR rides in less than VFR? I took mine 2 years ago in 400
foot ceilings with 2 miles visibility. Are you saying that we took our
check rides in illegal conditions? I feel that was the most practical
way to be examined. I think it would be nice if there were a regulation
that made it mandantory. However, I do understand that actual conditions
are hard to come by. The fact is, it is different to fly in IMC as
compared to just being under the hood. As far as waiting for a VFR day
to do your check-ride is not right, I recommend doing it in IMC if
possible, find another examiner if you have to.
Michal Hustad
Michael A. Ball
This was my understanding as well.
--
Wingman
Jim Pauk <jim...@www.plantnet.com> wrote in article <327CCB...@www.plantnet.com>...
> Glen E. Thompson wrote:
> >
> > It depends on the examiner and how well he knows your instructor. I took
> > my checkride in IMC. The DE knew my CFII well. There were only a few
> > instructors that he would allow this with.
>
> I thought that you had to do it in VMC because you're the PIC and not
> yet rated for IMC. The examiner is not there as your instructor and not
> allowed to be PIC. Is this correct or not? Jim
>
Frank Nail
it is not by regulation, but at the discretion of the individual
examiner,
for the manuvers they will climb on top or request a block altitude, and
lateral separation(generally defined by vor radials(and dme if
available))
Humbly yours
hard...@hal.allegheny.edu
Your instructor is incorrect. Although it may be true that the DE he
refers you to won't do checkrides in IMC, that is not universally true.
I took my Instrument checkride in September in 700' OVC and moderate Tb.
(Passed; <RBG>)
Richard Acuff
In article <01bbc75e$d5b0af00$6142afc2@default>, mes...@msn.de says...
>
>My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride. He
I also believe it's at the discretion of the DE (or was). On my checkride, the
DE (Gary Twitty) said simply "we can't go if it's actual" and I didn't press
for why since it didn't matter. We did, however, file a flight plan. Judging
by the way things looked when I got to lift the hood, I suspect we did get
pretty close to some clouds, but by then he'd had time to know how I'd do. and
may have felt better about it.
-- Rich
Glen E. Thompson
I couldn't find anything in the FARs that mentioned this. Can you quote a
requirement? Checking back in my log book, the DE had me listed as PIC
since I was "sole manipulator of the controls". Flight was .7 actual, .7
hood time since we were in and out during parts.
--
Glen E. Thompson
glen.t...@worldnet.att.net
'89 RX-7 GTUs
'77 Piper Lance
Jim Pauk <jim...@www.plantnet.com> wrote in article
<327CCB...@www.plantnet.com>...
>
Jim Hanrahan
In article <327E40...@vax1.mankato.msus.edu> Michal Hustad
<hus...@vax1.mankato.msus.edu> writes:
> If what was stated in the previous posting is true, how come so many
of >us took our IFR rides in less than VFR? I took mine 2 years ago in 400
>foot ceilings with 2 miles visibility.
Michal,
Although I finding nothing wrong with an examiner giving check rides in
IMC, I was wondering if you were required to perform maneuvers such as 45
degree banked turns and recovery from unusual attitudes when the ceilings were
400 feet. Were you able to get on top to perform these maneuvers under the
hood? That would be one trusting examiner to do recovery from unusal attitudes
in solid IMC with ceilings of 400 feet.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Hanrahan, PE, CP-IA Naval Surface Warfare Center
hanr...@oasys.dt.navy.mil Annapolis, Maryland, USA
Randy Stockberger
I don't know if it's legal or not, never thought about it.
On my IFR check ride there was BKN CU at 2200' and scattered showers, a
real bumpy day. We filed and departed and did the ATC stuff, then the
non-ATC stuff. I'm pretty sure the ATC stuff was in and out of IMC, but I
had the hood on and can't be positive. We were under ATC control, above the
cloud base on an BKN day and flying an IFR flight plan, I have to assume we
were IMC some of the time.
On the ILS approach the controller gave us a real, genuine hold,
unrequested by the DE, on the inbound ILS and the outer marker, right
turns. I'm positive the inbound end of this was in a CU since I would have
to pull the power back about 400 RPM through the turn, then add power again
on the outbound leg. Anyway, even with the hood on, I am pretty sure we
were IMC.
The non-ATC stuff was all in VFR. The DE spent several minutes vectoring me
around so we could get high enough to do the unusual attitude stuff and
still have room between the CU.
In addition to all the normal stall, spiral dive and overbank type
situations, he took the plane, had me close my eyes, then cranked in full
flaps and full nose up trim while manuvering, then gave it back to me with
the stall horn just chirping. I got the nose right down and the power back
in and even figured out the trim. It took almost 30 seconds (which is a
really long time on a check ride) to figure out that I couldn't accelerate
past 90 in level flight unless I pulled in the flaps.
Before the flight, during the oral, it came out that I had filed under his
name. He said he wished I had used my name since if I messed up it should
go against my ticket. We never bothered to change it.
Sorry that this has gotten really long winded. You can, IMHO, do parts of
the check ride in IMC. You must, however, have VMC for the parts that ATC
can't/won't provide separation services for.
Martin Esche wrote:
>
> My instructor told me that I have to wait for VMC to take my check ride.
He
> told me, no FAA examiner would give me my check ride under IFR.
> Is he right, and, why?
> Martin
Henry
I posed this question about IFR check rides in IMC to the CFI message
board on America On-Line. Howard Fried who writes the CFI column "Eye
of the Examiner" for Flying magazine and several others answered.
Basically, it is not against the regs, but if in IMC the examiner is the
PIC. And, if you file an IFR flight plan, irregardless of the wx
conditions, the examiner must be the PIC. If you want to do unusual
attitudes in IMC you can request a block of airspace from ATC. One CFI
said that he goes up with his students as the PIC in the right seat and
the examiner sits in the back with headphones issuing all the orders
etc. The CFI does not touch the controls at all. The comments
previously posted on this board about the examiner not wanting to have
responsibility and the unusual attitude test portion were the common
reasons why most examiners will not usually go up for the IFR checkride
in IMC. Howard Fried, by the way, is more than willing to give the
checkride in IMC as long as it isn't "blowing rocks".
Klaus P Kraemer
In <328448...@wolfenet.com> Henry <the...@wolfenet.com> writes:
>
>I posed this question about IFR check rides in IMC to the CFI message
>board on America On-Line. Howard Fried who writes the CFI column
"Eye
>of the Examiner" for Flying magazine and several others answered.
>Basically, it is not against the regs, but if in IMC the examiner is
the
>PIC. And, if you file an IFR flight plan, irregardless of the wx
>conditions, the examiner must be the PIC.
Is that what Howard Fried told you? If so, probably the majority of all
IFR check rides in the past were done illegally. I, and all IFR-rated
pilots I know, filed IFR flight plans under our own names on the check
ride.
But then, who is Howard Fried? Certainly not *my* authority.
Klaus.
Henry
Klaus wrote:
>
> Is that what Howard Fried told you? If so, probably the majority of all
> IFR check rides in the past were done illegally. I, and all IFR-rated
> pilots I know, filed IFR flight plans under our own names on the check
> ride.
>
This wasn't just Fried's opinion. Several other CFI's said the DE had
to sign on as PIC if the check ride was in IMC. Well, I guess we'll
need to see the actual regs to break the tie.
Frank Nail
Henry wrote:
>
> I posed this question about IFR check rides in IMC to the CFI message
> board on America On-Line. Howard Fried who writes the CFI column "Eye
> of the Examiner" for Flying magazine and several others answered.
> Basically, it is not against the regs, but if in IMC the examiner is the
> PIC. And, if you file an IFR flight plan, irregardless of the wx
> attitudes in IMC you can request a block of airspace from ATC. One CFI
> said that he goes up with his students as the PIC in the right seat and
> the examiner sits in the back with headphones issuing all the orders
> etc. The CFI does not touch the controls at all. The comments
> previously posted on this board about the examiner not wanting to have
> responsibility and the unusual attitude test portion were the common
> reasons why most examiners will not usually go up for the IFR checkride
> in IMC. Howard Fried, by the way, is more than willing to give the
> checkride in IMC as long as it isn't "blowing rocks".
Howard Fried has not been an examiner for over 2.5 years!!! exactly when
was Howard going to give this check ride????????
Mit Robertson
On this matter of checkrides being prohibited in IMC (which has
pretty well been debunked, I think), what are people's
experiences with filing/not filing in VMC. As far as the FAA
is concerned, the only thing that matters is whether you're in
the system, regardless of the MC.
Are there examiners who won't go in IMC but will (and will file) in VMC?
--
Scott Geeding
When I was training, I was told that an IFR checkride in IMC was indeed
at the discretion of the examiner, but he is legally PIC and if the
applicant makes a mistake the examiner would have to take control,
constituting an instant failure. A VMC checkride, on the other hand,
would have more leeway where a mistake is concerned.
Klaus P Kraemer
In <328616...@wolfenet.com> Henry <the...@wolfenet.com> writes:
>
>
>This wasn't just Fried's opinion. Several other CFI's said the DE had
>to sign on as PIC if the check ride was in IMC. Well, I guess we'll
>need to see the actual regs to break the tie.
Ah, but that was not the original question, as far as I remember. It
was not about who is PIC in actual conditions, it was whose name goes
on the flight plan.
Andy Olson
I, and all IFR-rated
> > pilots I know, filed IFR flight plans under our own names on the check
> > ride.
flight plan with my instructor I always had to file under his name. I can
not see how this would change for your check ride, the examiner is still
PIC, and I cant see how an examiner wouldn't catch that.
Jim Wolper
Andy wrote "[snip]the examiner is still PIC[snip]."
This is incorrect. See the Practical Test Standards and FAR 61.47.
Jim Wolper CFI
Pat Mckinzie
Andy Olson wrote:
>
.
>I have not taken my IFR check ride yet but when I've had to file an IFR
> flight plan with my instructor I always had to file under his name. I can
> not see how this would change for your check ride, the examiner is still
> PIC, and I cant see how an examiner wouldn't catch that.
On an FAA check ride the applicant is the PIC. the Private Pilot Exam is
the first legal PIC that we log even though we must pass the check ride
in order to log any more PIC. On an Instrument Practical Exam (check
ride) the applicant is the PIC. When an FAA ispector interprets the regs
otherwise for actual IFR conditions they are not being consitant with
the private exam.
--
Pat McKinzie
Http://www.mankato.msus.edu/dept/aviation/pat1.htm
mcki...@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
****
/**\ * *
**** ********* *
* ====== N1PM *
******************
* **
Klaus P Kraemer
I did look up 61.47:
"... The inspector ... is not PIC ... unless he acts in that capacity
for the flight, or portion of the flight, by prior arrangement with the
applicant..."
My interpretation: If the inspector (or DE) is willing to perform the
checkride in IMC, just agree beforehand that he will be PIC for the
part of the ride that's done in IMC. I suspect that every DE will
insist on doing some parts of the ride (unusual attitudes, e.g.) in
VMC. The "prior arrangement" should include a way to switch PIC status
to the applicant when VMC is reached.
Klaus.
Arthur McAllister
kla...@ix.netcom.com(Klaus P Kraemer) wrote:
>Klaus.
Why cannot the applicant be PIC even though not yet rated, just as he
is during a private pilot practical test???
Steve Peltz
In article <328B72...@vax1.mankato.msus.edu>,
Pat Mckinzie <mcki...@vax1.mankato.msus.edu> wrote:
>On an FAA check ride the applicant is the PIC. the Private Pilot Exam is
>the first legal PIC that we log even though we must pass the check ride
>in order to log any more PIC. On an Instrument Practical Exam (check
>ride) the applicant is the PIC. When an FAA ispector interprets the regs
>otherwise for actual IFR conditions they are not being consitant with
>the private exam.
Where does it say you can log your checkride as PIC (I know it's traditional,
but where is it authorized)? No, 61.47 does not say anything about logging.
You might be able to log it as solo time (if not logging it as solo time
is considered a "limitation" for carrying passengers).
Unless the examiner and applicant agree that the examiner is PIC, a flight
test can not be under IFR (which implies it can not be in IMC).
Mit Robertson
>On an FAA check ride the applicant is the PIC. the Private
>Pilot Exam is the first legal PIC that we log even though we must pass the
>check ride in order to log any more PIC. On an Instrument Practical Exam
>(check ride) the applicant is the PIC. When an FAA ispector interprets
>the regs otherwise for actual IFR conditions they are not being
>consitant with the private exam.
Not really. As a student pilot cannot carry passengers, the
examinee must have PP PIC privileges to conduct the test.
(Assuming the examiner isn't required to be PIC which it seems most examiners
would be strongly against.) A PP (or CP) going for an IA can
carry passengers but cannot go into the system. Since all the
test requirements can be carried out VMC/VFR, there is no need
to extend as yet untested privileges to the applicant.
--
Ron Natalie
Mit Robertson wrote:
> As a student pilot cannot carry passengers, the
> examinee must have PP PIC privileges to conduct the test.
Examiners do not count as passenger, they get a special
exemption from the rule (61.47).
Steve Peltz
In article <56ilbe$q...@news.snet.net>,
Arthur McAllister <laf...@snet.net> wrote:
>Why cannot the applicant be PIC even though not yet rated, just as he
>is during a private pilot practical test???
Because he isn't authorized to act as PIC under IFR.
Arthur McAllister
cm...@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Mit Robertson) wrote:
>>On an FAA check ride the applicant is the PIC. the Private
>>Pilot Exam is the first legal PIC that we log even though we must pass the
>>check ride in order to log any more PIC. On an Instrument Practical Exam
>>(check ride) the applicant is the PIC. When an FAA ispector interprets
>>the regs otherwise for actual IFR conditions they are not being
>>consitant with the private exam.
>Not really. As a student pilot cannot carry passengers, the
>examinee must have PP PIC privileges to conduct the test.
>(Assuming the examiner isn't required to be PIC which it seems most examiners
>would be strongly against.) A PP (or CP) going for an IA can
>carry passengers but cannot go into the system. Since all the
>test requirements can be carried out VMC/VFR, there is no need
>to extend as yet untested privileges to the applicant.
>--
I believe there are FAA legal opinions that state that the DE is not a
"passenger" under the regulations during any Practical Test.
Arthur McAllister
pe...@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz) wrote:
>In article <328B72...@vax1.mankato.msus.edu>,
>Pat Mckinzie <mcki...@vax1.mankato.msus.edu> wrote:
>>On an FAA check ride the applicant is the PIC. the Private Pilot Exam is
>>the first legal PIC that we log even though we must pass the check ride
>>in order to log any more PIC. On an Instrument Practical Exam (check
>>ride) the applicant is the PIC. When an FAA ispector interprets the regs
>>otherwise for actual IFR conditions they are not being consitant with
>>the private exam.
>Where does it say you can log your checkride as PIC (I know it's traditional,
>but where is it authorized)? No, 61.47 does not say anything about logging.
>You might be able to log it as solo time (if not logging it as solo time
>is considered a "limitation" for carrying passengers).
>Unless the examiner and applicant agree that the examiner is PIC, a flight
>test can not be under IFR (which implies it can not be in IMC).
Please, where exactly is this so stipulated?????
Klaus P Kraemer
In <56qjsn$m...@news.snet.net> laf...@snet.net (Arthur McAllister)
writes:
>>Unless the examiner and applicant agree that the examiner is PIC, a
flight
>>test can not be under IFR (which implies it can not be in IMC).
>
>
>Please, where exactly is this so stipulated?????
^^^^^^
61.47, and the quote is correct, even if not verbatim. Here is the
exact wording:
"The inspector or other examiner is not pilot in command of the
aircraft during the flight test unless he acts in that capacity for the
flight, or portion of the flight, by prior arrangement with the
applicant ..."
How about reading the FARs before you post??????????????????????????
Klaus.
Bill Caefer
laf...@snet.net (Arthur McAllister) wrote:
>pe...@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz) wrote:
>>Where does it say you can log your checkride as PIC (I know it's traditional,
>>but where is it authorized)? No, 61.47 does not say anything about logging.
>>You might be able to log it as solo time (if not logging it as solo time
>>is considered a "limitation" for carrying passengers).
>>Unless the examiner and applicant agree that the examiner is PIC, a flight
>>test can not be under IFR (which implies it can not be in IMC).
>Please, where exactly is this so stipulated?????
Beats me. But I do know that I took my IFR checkride in solid clouds.
Kinda makes cheating (peeking) impossible doesn't it?
Tim Hogard
Klaus P Kraemer (kla...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <56qjsn$m...@news.snet.net> laf...@snet.net (Arthur McAllister)
: writes:
: >>Unless the examiner and applicant agree that the examiner is PIC, a
: flight
: >>test can not be under IFR (which implies it can not be in IMC).
: >
: >
: >Please, where exactly is this so stipulated?????
: ^^^^^^
: 61.47, and the quote is correct, even if not verbatim. Here is the
: exact wording:
:
: "The inspector or other examiner is not pilot in command of the
: aircraft during the flight test unless he acts in that capacity for the
: flight, or portion of the flight, by prior arrangement with the
: applicant ..."
Hmmm.
On my VFR check ride, my examiner told me that I was PIC because I passed.
If I hadn't it would be Dual. Kind of makes it retroactive for an hour or
so.
Klaus P Kraemer
In <57ops3$g...@not.abnormal.com> tho...@not.abnormal.com (Tim Hogard)
writes:
Hmmm, hmmm, hmmmm! Maybe you want to go back to your DE and ask him to
read 61.47? ;-) naah, better not.
The FAR's well-known inconsistencies foster those hair-splitting
discussions about "being PIC", "acting as PIC", "logging PIC", and the
difference between a PIC and a "student pilot flying solo". The latter
was probably the reason to include in 61.47 the wording
"notwithstanding" (a wonderful FAR staple) "..., (applicant and
examiner) ...are not subject to the ... limitations for the carriage of
passengers." Otherwise, students might agonize even more if it's legal
to take an examiner along on a PPL checkride. No such problem on other
checkrides (instrument, commercial, etc), since the pilot in those
cases is already rated to carry live persons.
Maybe the ideal DE should have said, "you are a Private Pilot now, and
you can log this flight as PIC since you were acting in this role,
although until just a minute ago you were a student pilot and could log
it only as solo flight, and nobody can figure out the difference,
anyway. Happy flying, and keep it safe!" Maybe he was short of breath.
Klaus.
Arthur McAllister
> : writes:
>
> : >>Unless the examiner and applicant agree that the examiner is PIC, a
> : flight
> : >>test can not be under IFR (which implies it can not be in IMC).
> : >
> : >
> : >Please, where exactly is this so stipulated?????
> : ^^^^^^
> : exact wording:
> :
> : "The inspector or other examiner is not pilot in command of the
> : aircraft during the flight test unless he acts in that capacity for the
> : flight, or portion of the flight, by prior arrangement with the
> : applicant ..."
> Hmmm.
>
I was not questioning this reg. I was questioning the assertion that
"unless the examiner and applicant agree that the examiner is PIC, a
flight test can not be under IFR (which implies it can not be in IMC)."
If a private ride can be conducted even though the examiner is not PIC,
where is it written, and how does it follow, that an instrument test
cannot be
conducted in IMC unless the examiner is willing to act as PIC????
Ron Natalie
Arthur McAllister wrote:
> If a private ride can be conducted even though the examiner is not PIC,
> where is it written, and how does it follow, that an instrument test
> cannot be conducted in IMC unless the examiner is willing to act as PIC????
What do these two statements have to do with each other?
A student pilot can log PIC time as long as he doesn't
carry passengers. The examiner gets a special dispensation
in the FARS as not counting as a passenger for ratings
limitations.
A non-instrument rated pilot may not be PIC on an IFR
flight plan nor in IMC. Therefore someone else in the
plane (the examiner is handy) must be.
-Ron
Joe Norris
> A non-instrument rated pilot may not be PIC on an IFR
> flight plan nor in IMC. Therefore someone else in the
> plane (the examiner is handy) must be.
If the flight is an IFR training flight, with a CFII on board, the pilot
MAY log PIC time, so long as the pilot is rated in the aircraft being
flown. In this case, both the pilot and the instructor will log PIC time.
The pilot will also log the time as dual.
Joe Norris
leon...@aol.com
In article <32A076...@snet.net>, Arthur McAllister <laf...@snet.net>
writes:
>I was not questioning this reg. I was questioning the assertion that
>"unless the examiner and applicant agree that the examiner is PIC, a
> flight test can not be under IFR (which implies it can not be in IMC)."
>
>where is it written, and how does it follow, that an instrument test
>cannot be
>conducted in IMC unless the examiner is willing to act as PIC????
It is written in FAR 61.3(e). It follows as follows:
The private checkride can be conducted without the examiner being PIC
because:
a) The student pilot may legally fly the airplane (VFR).
b) Though the student may not normally carry passengers, 61.47 explicitly
exempts the student and examiner from the passenger-carrying restriction.
The instrument checkride cannot be conducted in IMC unless the examiner is
PIC, because:
a) 61.3(e) prohibits non-instrument-rated pilots from acting as PIC under
IFR or in IMC.
b) There is no checkride exemption similar to 61.47 which addresses acting
as PIC under IFR or in IMC.
Marc Leonard
Leon...@aol.com