Manual gear Mooney
terry a moore
gear up near Dallas TX. The pilot and instructor claim that the "bar" did
not lock properly in the safe for landing position. If this is so is it
possible for the green light to be on to show "down and locked"? I hav
e many hours in this airplane and I recall that to bring the BAR from
wheels up to wheels down takes a good push. Even more so if your speed is
near the top of the white. From now on I will tug on the bar before I land to
verify that it is really home. I wont get to try this for a while till they
fix the club plane.
What do you think? Terry Moore tmo...@mksol.dseg.ti.com : x
: x
Jim Schinnerer
: This weekend there was a M20E? (fuel inj. Manual gear 1960?) that landed
Oh, goody - something I actually know about...
I had a '67 C model with manual gear, and flew it for 250 hours. In order
to get a green gear light, the Johnson Bar had to be up (vertical), AND the
sliding handle had to be locked into the catch pin housing. The green light
was activated by a switch located in the catch pin housing, that is, the light
wouldn't light unless the gear was locked down.
So, if the bar didn't lock, but the switch was loose or mis-aligned such
that the light was on anyway, you might have a problem. In my experience,
the latching of the slider was very positive, and the light was just
there for show. Certainly, if you don't get the feeling of the locking
mechanism, you shouldn't believe the light anyway.
This is the first I've heard of the manual gear mechanism failing. There is
no backup extension proceedure because it is such a simple, reliable system.
BTW, the faster you're going, the easier it is to lower the gear, and the
slower you're going, the easier it is to raise the gear.
---------------------------------------------------------
Jim Schinnerer - PP-ASEL-IA | Hewlett Packard
| Vancouver, WA
email - schi...@vcd.hp.com | (206) 212-3324
---------------------------------------------------------
Marshal H. Perlman
: This weekend there was a M20E? (fuel inj. Manual gear 1960?) that landed
: gear up near Dallas TX. The pilot and instructor claim that the "bar" did
: not lock properly in the safe for landing position. If this is so is it
: possible for the green light to be on to show "down and locked"?
I am not 100% positive, but I've got more then a few hours in a(n) M20J...
I had an OPPOSITE but SIMILAR experience where the gear would not GO UP...
We did a simulated manual gear extension and after clicking the T
handle down... we had no green gear down lights... and the hole in the floor
showed about 25% of the green bar.
After a few passes by the tower, they said it looked fine... and we landed
(the gear held... if you care to know).
Turned out that whoever had the plane before us somehow stressed the bar
which yanks the nose wheel up... and whatever we did made it BEND... so the
gear was down and locked but we could not see the green light in the floor
or on the panel...
So we got a double wammy... 1) the bar was bent, so we didn't see the hole in
the floor as green, and 2) the microswitches were not depressed by the
bar (as it was bent) so we didn't get 2 green...
--
|o| Marshal Perlman Internet: per...@cs.fit.edu |o|
|o| Florida Institute of Technology (ARCS Dept.) IRC: Squawk |o|
|o| Melbourne, Florida Private Pilot, ASEL |o|
|o| 407-676-4331 Goodyear Blimp Club Member |o|
Tom Grover
: On Mon, 22 Nov 1993 13:04:27 GMT, terry a moore (tmo...@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
: : This weekend there was a M20E? (fuel inj. Manual gear 1960?) that landed
: : gear up near Dallas TX. The pilot and instructor claim that the "bar" did
: : not lock properly in the safe for landing position. If this is so is it
: : possible for the green light to be on to show "down and locked"?
: I am not 100% positive, but I've got more then a few hours in a(n) M20J...
: I had an OPPOSITE but SIMILAR experience where the gear would not GO UP...
..stuff deleted...
I am also not 100% certain, but I've done a few flights in my father's 1965(?)
M20C and I don't recall a gear light. It would be superfluous anyway, since the
gear "handle" is a bar that extends from a hinge on the floor under the
instrument panel, when the gear is UP the bar is locked down by a manual latch
on the floor between the seats, and when the gear is DOWN or extended it is
held by a mechanical latch at the bottom of the instrument panel. Pretty
foolproof, but if the airspeed gets up it can be pretty difficult to retract.
He tells me that at airspeeds close the max gear extension speed it gets yanked
down by the airstream pretty hard.... The other problem is simply getting the
Mooney to slow down enough to get the gear down while descending (no airbrakes
on this model).
--
Tom Grover
tgr...@us.dell.com
__________________________________
My opinion is my own - i think....
--------------------------------------------------------------
| Engineers - often wrong but never in doubt. |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Marshal H. Perlman
:M20C and I don't recall a gear light. It would be superfluous anyway, since the
:gear "handle" is a bar that extends from a hinge on the floor under the
I don't know of older ones, but the newer M20Js have two ways to verify
the gear.
1) Lights on the an light display panel & 2) a hole in the floor about 1' ahead
of the T-HANDLE which shows the gear bar itself. The bar has a light in/under
it so you can see a red or greenbar display.
--
|o| Marshal Perlman Internet: per...@cs.fit.edu |o|
|o| Academic and Research Computing Services (ARCS) IRC: Squawk |o|
|o| Florida Institute of Technology Private Pilot, ASEL |o|
|o| Pager: 407/455-4809 Member: AOPA/AAAE/Goodyear Blimp Club |o|
Angelo Campanella
In my few hours in an older M20, I found that it was not enough to have the
handle up for gear extension. You have to force it ahead to nest in its lock
on the instrument panel. There is a drop-latch to retain it. If this
drop-latch is not driven home, the bar can swing back under landing load, and
the wheels would retract. I'm not positive of all thelatter details, but I
know that one is taught to double check the drop-latch security before
commiting to landing:
STORY: Whilst tire-kicking in 1969 for a plane, I flew an old M-30 Executive,
the dealed having supplied a salesman-instructor to accompany me.
As we taxied out, I asked him whether he ever flew a manual gear Mooney before.
NO! he answered!. So I siad (I also was a CFI), "neither have I, but let's
depart the pattern gear still down and exercise it in the practice area."
So we did, and I learned the above latching ant-dance. I also learned that an
old right elbow injury I acquired an an infant (curious hand into mom's clothes
wringer) restricted my elbow rotation just enough to make me have to wriggle
and change position from start to finish of the swing of the "Johnson-Bar"
like lever. Gear retract and extension are very quick, but you have to
know what you are doing. The final latching was a ritual.
We pulled the gear up, did some maneuvers, returned to the field (Cincinnati
Lunken) dropped the gear in the pattern and landed uneventfully. The plane
was noce, but the cost (15K+-) was above my budget.
In 1970 I bought into a Debonair (electric gear), then in '79 into a new Mooney
201 (electric gear).
Ang.
terry a moore
: ..stuff deleted...
: --
:
: Tom Grover
: tgr...@us.dell.com
Tom one way to slow down to a speed appropriate for gear down is use
the handle to partially lower the gear into the airstream to create the
drag required to slow down. I have not tested this but I was told this by
a Mooney broker down near Kerville Texas. My IFR instructer told me to
slip side ways to creat drag to slow down in the case of "Keep your speed
UP approach" . I have done this and it works. But I also landed on the
last half of 8000' RWY. Our flying club members have not been told of any new info about the mooney incident.
regards Terry
Somewhere in North Texas USA
Jim Schinnerer
: the handle to partially lower the gear into the airstream to create the
: drag required to slow down. I have not tested this but I was told this by
: a Mooney broker down near Kerville Texas. My IFR instructer told me to
: slip side ways to creat drag to slow down in the case of "Keep your speed
: UP approach" . I have done this and it works. But I also landed on the
: last half of 8000' RWY. Our flying club members have not been told of any
: new info about the mooney incident.
I am not a Mooney broker, but I would *NEVER* let the gear hang out a little
bit to slow down. Think about it... the main reason that the gear speeds
exist is because the sheet metal pieces may bend or tear off the plane. The
second you partially extend the gear, the sheet metal hangs out into the
slipstream. No thankyou, not for me...
I don't like using a slip to slow down either, as the Mooney rudder is
pretty darn small and the engine really doesn't like the torque.
The only way to slow a Mooney down it to plan way ahead, or install speed
brakes. Sometimes, if you are high enough, you're cruise speed may be within
a few knots of the gear speed. If you pull up a bit and then lower the
gear, you can get dirty that way, as long as you don't get too fast in the
decent.
Les Niles
>I don't like using a slip to slow down either, as the Mooney rudder is
>pretty darn small and the engine really doesn't like the torque.
Can you elaborate? The small rudder just limits how much you can slip.
What's this about the torque? Do you mean transient gyroscopic effects
due to kicking into the slip quickly, or a twisting moment due to the
airstream hitting the prop at an angle? I've never heard of torque on
the engine being a consideration in a slip.
-les ni...@parc.xerox.com
Mooney N9752M
Jim Schinnerer
: -les ni...@parc.xerox.com
: Mooney N9752M
Yes, the small rudder limits the amount you can slip. So much so, that I
never used a slip as the effectivness wasn't worth the effort. I guess I'm
lazy.
The torque that I didn't like was while entering and exiting the slip.
Certainly, if you try to kick into a slip in order to control an approach
decent, the engine would whine in protest. You could argue that on a short
final when you would like to use the slip, the RPM's are low, and the engine
wouldn't mind. Generally speaking, if I needed to slip a final in the Mooney,
I had messed up pretty bad, so I just went around.
Jeffrey Dunkle
>bit to slow down. Think about it... the main reason that the gear speeds
>exist is because the sheet metal pieces may bend or tear off the plane. The
>second you partially extend the gear, the sheet metal hangs out into the
>slipstream. No thankyou, not for me...
My $0.02. Years back my dad was part owner of a Mooney Mk 20C, the
manual gear, metal wing 180 hp carbureted model. I also worked several
summers while in high school/college for Henry Weber at the Lancaster
Airport, who, at the time, was the largest Mooney dealer in the country.
<This was a "long" time ago....this design came out, as I recall, in
1963......so some of my memory is a bit rusty) The manual gear Mooneys
have, of course, cables going from the belly end of the gear handle
"lever" to the 3 gear. This lever arm was about 30 or so inches long
with a large, spring loaded "end" which inserted into a hole in one of
two very stout metal fittings....one under the pannel for "down and
locked"......one between the seats for "up and locked". There are no
uplocks or downlock mechanisms on the gear themselves in the wells .
The leverage between the handle and the cable/gear mechanism isn't too
terrific and part of the trick is to build a momentum during the up or
down cycle while swinging this 30 inch or so lever thru its 90 degree
arc. But my 130 pound mother could do it so it wasn't too big a deal.
Much of the "load" the pilot feels when cycling the gear came from two
components, gear weight, and airloads on the nose gear. Nose gear
retraction was aided by the breeze, the forward swing of extension was
against the wind. The main gear swung outward at 90 degrees to the
airloads and their main force contribution was weight....helping
extension....hurting retraction.
The gear itself is relatively robust and all the gear doors are mounted
edge into the wind so their air loads are fairly small. A number of
"manual Mooney" pilots did use the trick of just unlatching the gear,
letting it hang in the breeze, and as the plane lost airspeed, finish
the extension when the air load against the nose gear was lower. This
would also allow you to regrip the handle in a wrist rotation more
conducive to finishing the extension Is it a "correct" procedure?
Doubtful. My guess is that the nose gear door was the element most at
risk. This discussion is NOT an endorsement in any way of violating
published gear cycle speeds!
The manual mechanism does require TLC, mostly lubrication, and some
rigging from time to time. Otherwise, its a great system; no seals to
blow, no motors to burn out, no sequencing valves, screw jacks, etc.
etc. The most crucial aspect of the process is assuring that the
latching of the handle into the "downlock" fitting is complete.
Jeff Dunkle
<jd...@andrew.cmu.edu>
Circle W Flying Club
Pittsburgh, PA
terry a moore
: --------------------------------------------------------
I agree about speeds greater than max gear extend speed. I was thinking more
in terms of < 100 kts. Mooney aircraft gives new meaning to "Stay ahead
of the airplane"
GoodDay Terry Moore
Tom Grover
: The only way to slow a Mooney down it to plan way ahead, or install speed
: brakes. Sometimes, if you are high enough, you're cruise speed may be within
: a few knots of the gear speed. If you pull up a bit and then lower the
: gear, you can get dirty that way, as long as you don't get too fast in the
: decent.
This is my Dad's experience, either you have to plan way (WAY) ahead, or
sometimes you just have to get the nose up & drop the airspeed temporarily.
em...@cas.org
On the light side, I flew right seat in a Mooney based in Geneva
(GVA) Switzerland for a pilot who had just obtained a US
instrument rating. As I recall, the outer marker for runway 23
or 24 (can't remember) at GVA is only 2.5 miles from the runway
threshold. Further out than that is water. There is a lot of
heavy traffic into GVA. Normal instructions for that approach
were to hold best speed (about 140 knots) to the marker. So, how
do you get slowed up, get the gear down, and stay on the glide
slope, in 2.5 miles?! Not easily. In VFR conditions it was no
real sweat with a 13,000 foot runway and the GA facility in the
last third. However, I would not have wanted to hear those
instructions in real IMC with a low ceiling.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Erica Scurr I speak only for myself
em...@cas.org internet
N1128Q Piper Arrow III
N3615B Schweizer 1-36
ATP-ME, CFI-0, 1, or 2 engines, and in the clouds
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Keith R. Peterson
>The torque that I didn't like was while entering and exiting the slip.
>Certainly, if you try to kick into a slip in order to control an approach
>decent, the engine would whine in protest. You could argue that on a short
>final when you would like to use the slip, the RPM's are low, and the engine
>wouldn't mind. Generally speaking, if I needed to slip a final in the Mooney,
>I had messed up pretty bad, so I just went around.
Since I have the same engine and prop, this is fairly close to home. Just
another opinion to add to yours, Jim. With all the student types out there
the raw facts could start a slip adversion.
The whine is the sound of a varying angle of incidence as the prop
rotates, that is it's angle of attack is different across the top than
around the bottom. That's not the engine whining, it's the air. And
perhaps a little from the governer sorting out the proper pitch.
There is definitely torque on the crank when you turn an airplane,
the faster the more. Aerobatic engines are beefier up front for that
reason and have limits I think: No prop extensions? Lighter props? All
I know for sure is that snap rolls have crank effects.
But I don't think a slip quite qualifies for the same concern. How else
do you land in a crosswind?
Wiping off speed is a trick, certainly, but there are times that a slip
is the best thing for an engine/airplane. It beats pulling the power off
all at once and is probably better than a go-around. It might make some
sense to enter that slip gradually, if only for the passengers...
KP
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Peterson pet...@rtsg.mot.com Casa De Aero Air Park
Motorola, Inc 48W591 Immelman
Arlington Heights, IL Hampshire, Illinois 60140
(708) 632-2959 (708) 683-4777
Ham N9GLP Cessna 177-RG 33267
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Angelo Campanella
I have been flying my 201 since 1979.
The gear extension speed needs to be honored all the time.
If you find yourself way too high or too fast, GO AROUND!
Don't even think about forcing it on the runway anyway;
it will hop-scotch and wheelbarrow far too hard and too long.
My perceptions on transitioning to the Mooney were as follows:
(As compared to Mooneys:)
Cessnas are very docile when a bit high and pressed down at higher speed.
Beech bonanza likewise.
Piper Cherokees always land when you want them to (very draggy).
Mooneys are NONE of the above.
About the only similarity I found was that the nose angle and angle of glide
of the Mooney was about the same as the Cessna 150 (at about 10-15 knots
faster airspeed).
Don't touch down when your airspeed is more than 60-65 knots (70-75mph)
(over and past the runway threshold)
If you find yourself a little high, use a solid forward slip.
It works fairly well with maximum rudder and aileron to suit.
But it is not as good as a Cessna 150 or Bonanza with full flaps.
Go out to your practice area and exercise some forward slips; check the
airspeeds where they give a high descent rate with gear down.
The Mooney slips fairly well with full flaps at an 80+- knot speed.
I use it typically in the last 1/2 mile, straightening out over the numbers
and bleeding off the speed before touch down...
Ang. C.
Steven H Philipson
>Les Niles (ni...@parc.xerox.com) wrote:
>: In article <CHDqz...@vcd.hp.com> schi...@vcd.hp.com (Jim Schinnerer) writes:
>: >I don't like using a slip to slow down either, as the Mooney rudder is
>: >pretty darn small and the engine really doesn't like the torque.
>Yes, the small rudder limits the amount you can slip. So much so, that I
>never used a slip as the effectivness wasn't worth the effort. I guess I'm
>lazy.
I've been slipping Mooney 201s for many years. The rudder power may be
less than on some other aircraft, but is sufficient for significantly
increasing drag to increase descent rate or airspeed or both simultaneously.
>The torque that I didn't like was while entering and exiting the slip.
>Certainly, if you try to kick into a slip in order to control an approach
>decent, the engine would whine in protest. You could argue that on a short
>final when you would like to use the slip, the RPM's are low, and the engine
>wouldn't mind.
In an earlier post Les (I think) mentioned that the "whine" that one
hears while performing a slip is due to the change in airflow through the
prop arc. It seems to me that if the noise was actually coming from the
engine, it would be accompanied by noticeable damage in short order. I've
never heard of such damage being reported.
Another thing to consider is that the engine experiences significant
torque effects without the airplane ever being slipped. On every takeoff
and climbout the engine and prop are angled well above the flight path
of the aircraft. These components will be subjected to torque effects
whenever the flight path is not aligned with the thrust line, which is
to say most of the time. Additional forces will be experienced during
every turn and in flight through turbulence. There is nothing in the
Money POH or fleet maintenance history to suggest that these conditions
or operations are harmful to this aircraft.
> Generally speaking, if I needed to slip a final in the Mooney,
>I had messed up pretty bad, so I just went around.
I use slips as part of my standard approach in both Mooneys and in my
own Arrow. They allow me to keep the speed up during approach to an
airport. I slip the aircraft in level flight to reduce speed to below gear
extension speed. I use a very mild slip if I'm carrying passengers who
would be made uncomfortable by the side forces of a maximum effort slip.
As a flight instructor, I see slips used regularly by pilots who are
experienced and proficient in the operation of their Mooney's (and other
high-performance singles). To not use the maneuver is to abandon a useful
and safe tool for the efficient operation of this aircraft.
Steve
(the certified flying fanatic)
ste...@shell.portal.com
Kendall White
I agree with Steve on this one. I have owned my Mooney (M20E)
for almost 9 years and have about 700 hours of Mooney flight
time, and I use slips often. If you are flying under control
of ATC, you sometime will get held up (at altitude) longer than
you care for. The let you descend very to your airport or final
approach course well about where you want to be. If you point
the nose down, the Mooney will go beyond gear extension
speed very quickly. The side slip or speed brakes (about $4,000)
are your only recourse. Oh yeah, you can go around, but that gets
old afterwhile.
I haven't heard of slips causing any engine damage. My engine is now
high time, but runs very smoothly. I could not even begin to
count how many times I have slipped my airplane. Every once
in a while at a busy airport (i.e., BWI, IAD, BOS, RDU, or ATL), I have
been
asked to make a short approach or "...Maintain speed at 120KTS or better
until short final...". Needless to say, the ability to slip has save me
many a
turn around a holding pattern.
If you are unsure of yourself with slips, find a competent CFI to show
you. Then go have fun.
...Kendall
The Mooney Driver
PP-ASEL-IA
Stephen Kearney
>show you. Then go have fun.
Good advice. But I hope everyone can do slips since they are part of the
PP-ASEL practical test standards.
______________________________________________________
Stephen Kearney : nef...@garnet.berkeley.edu
The spheres are in commotion, the elements in harmony!
Robert Goldman
: I haven't heard of slips causing any engine damage. My engine is now
: high time, but runs very smoothly. I could not even begin to
I haven't heard of this either. And I'm sure it beats shock cooling!!!
: count how many times I have slipped my airplane. Every once
: in a while at a busy airport (i.e., BWI, IAD, BOS, RDU, or ATL), I have
: been
: asked to make a short approach or "...Maintain speed at 120KTS or better
: until short final...". Needless to say, the ability to slip has save m
Your lucky! I fly in and out of ATL and we are asked to keep speeds up
150, 160, 170 and even 200 knots. Lots easier with a jet. Just bring back
to FI and watch the speed come back.
Rob.
e
--
Robert S. Goldman
rgol...@netcom.com
Reece R. Pollack
In article <rgoldmanC...@netcom.com>, rgol...@netcom.com (Robert Goldman) writes:
|>Kendall White (klw...@mitre.org) wrote:
|>: count how many times I have slipped my airplane. Every once
|>: in a while at a busy airport (i.e., BWI, IAD, BOS, RDU, or ATL), I have
|>: been
|>: asked to make a short approach or "...Maintain speed at 120KTS or better
|>: until short final...". Needless to say, the ability to slip has save m
|>
|>Your lucky! I fly in and out of ATL and we are asked to keep speeds up
|>150, 160, 170 and even 200 knots. Lots easier with a jet. Just bring back
|>to FI and watch the speed come back.
One day while flying a Piper Archer II, an approach controller who had
apparently spent too much time talking to jets advised me, "Descend to
4000, do not exceed 200kts." I read back the clearance, and remarked that
staying below 200kts wouldn't be a problem. He replied, "Did I really say
that??"
--
Reece R. Pollack
PP-ASEL-IA -- Octopus Flying Club (based GAI)