Proper Phraseology for NDB Hold instructions ?
Alex Huppenthal
I'm enrolled in an Instrument training course and there is some
confusion on NDB Hold instructions.
One instructur says ATC will *always* use " Hold on the Abate 123 bering ";
meaning standard turns, hold SE of Abate, inbound course 123. He points out that
NDB berings always mean TO the nav aid.
Clarification from an ATC person is appreciated. If you are giving
instructions to hold at an NDB, what is the typical or standard holding
instruction phraseology? How are the instructions typically given?
-Alex
George Scheer
Alex Huppenthal <al...@netdev.comsys.com> wrote:
Wouldn't a hold on the 123 bearing, with an inbound course of 123, put
you NW of the NDB?
In any case, I believe the controller must specify the direction of
holding from the fix as part of the holding clearance. In the case of an
uncharted hold:
AIM 5-36
"i An ATC clearance requiring an aircraft to hold at a fix where the
pattern is not charted will include the following information: (see figure
...)
1. Direction of holding from the fix in terms of the eight
cardinal compass points (i.e., N, NE, E, SE, etc.)"
It goes on to specify the other five required elements of every holding
clearance.
The AIM also speaks to a charted hold:
AIM 5-36
"b. ....When the pattern is charted, the controller may omit all
holding instructions except the charted holding direction and the
statement AS PUBLISHED; e.g., HOLD EAST AS PUBLISHED. Controllers shall
always issue complete holding instructions when pilots request them.
Knowing the direction of the hold from the fix helps to clear up any
confusion about inbound or outbound bearings. The only times I can
remember holding at an NDB were at compass locators and the hold was on
the localizer, so the question didn't come up.
As a curiosity, however, the 93-95 version of the instrument rating
written exam has three questions about holding at an NDB that require
interpretation of clearances (there is another about timing) and each one
of the clearances specifies "BEARING FROM" in the clearance. For
example, CLEARED TO THE XYZ NDB. HOLD NORTHEAST ON THE ZERO FOUR ZERO
DEGREE BEARING FROM THE NDB. LEFT TURNS . . . "
I take this to mean that a bearing is usually a direction to the
station. When it is meant to be a direction away from the station, that
should be specified. However, perhaps because we are so conditioned to
VORs, that seems to be the way most of us like to think, so we find
ourselves speaking in terms of "bearing from" an NDB. I guess that's why
it is so helpful to have the direction from the fix specified. It's an
error check on our assumptions about the bearing. For instance, it would
be impossible to hold NE, as in the above clearance, on the 040 bearing
to the station. If I got a clearance telling me to hold "NE on the 040
bearing," I would think it was probably the "040 from bearing," but I
would ask for clarification.
I'll be interested to hear what the pros say.
George Scheer
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
unc...@email.unc.edu
Skip Forster
FAA Order 7110.65 (The handbook used by controllers) paragraph
4-53, Holding Instructions, states:
When necessary to issue holding instructions, specify:
a. Direction of holding from the fix.
b. Holding fix.
c. Radial, course, bearing, azimuth, airway, or route on which the
aircraft is to hold.
d. Leg length in miles if DME or RNAV is to be used. Specify leg length
in minutes if the pilot requests or you consider it necessary.
e. Direction of holding pattern turns only if left turns are to be made,
the pilot requests, or you consider it necessary.
Note the following:
1. The clearance items are the same no matter what the type of fix (VOR,
NDB, intersection).
2. While VOR radials are always FROM, a bearing may be either TO or
FROM. The Pilot/Controller Glossary defines bearing as:
"The horizontal direction to or from any point, usually measured
clockwise from true north, magnetic north, or some other reference point
through 360 degrees."
Controllers should use the phraseology "bearing to" or "bearing from".
As always, if the clearance is not clear, just ask.
In my experience, most of the confusion comes about in training when the
CFI is issuing clearances to simulate ATC. Unfortuneately, since CFIs
don't issue clearances for a living, they sometimes get it wrong
confusing the student. I've been guilty of that myself once or twice
<g>.
Hope this helps,
Skip Forster, CFII
Mark Thomen
>
>
> I'm enrolled in an Instrument training course and there is some
>confusion on NDB Hold instructions.
>
> One instructur says ATC will *always* use " Hold on the Abate 123 bering ";
>meaning standard turns, hold SE of Abate, inbound course 123. He points out that
>NDB berings always mean TO the nav aid.
>
I'm not an ATCS, but the reference I have describes the phraseology used as:
"Hold (direction) of (fix) on (specified radial, course, BEARING, azimuth,
airway, route).
(Number of minutes/miles) minute/mile leg.
(If direction of turn is specified) Left/Right Turns."
Mark
Garner R. Miller
Huppenthal) wrote:
> I'm enrolled in an Instrument training course and there is some
> confusion on NDB Hold instructions.
>
> One instructur says ATC will *always* use " Hold on the Abate 123 bering ";
> meaning standard turns, hold SE of Abate, inbound course 123. He points out
> that NDB berings always mean TO the nav aid.
I've actually *never* heard holding instructions given on the bearing or
radial to the navaid. Here's how always hear it:
"Cherokee 12345, Hold South on the 180 bearing FROM Satellite NDB."
or
"Cherokee 12345, Hold South on the 180 radial FROM Melbourne [VOR]."
In both cases, they're using the radial "from" the station. I've also
occasionally heard this, but not very often:
"Cherokee 12345, Hold South on the Satellite 180 bearing."
It's a little bit less clear, but the controller is required to tell you
what direction you'll be from the station (North, South, etc.).
Since he said, "Hold South" on that 180, that means your inbound course
would actually be the 360 bearing TO the NDB.
When you're first learning holds, have a blank piece of paper with you.
Spending a few seconds drawing the navaid, your airplane, and the holding
pattern can be a *BIG* help in visualizing this stuff, and can eliminate a
lot of the confusion.
Good luck with your instrument training.
--
Garner R. Miller, CFI-A
>> Friends don't let friends run Windows.
PAUL BERMAN
-> confusion on NDB Hold instructions.
->
-> One instructur says ATC will *always* use " Hold on the Abate 123
-> bering "; meaning standard turns, hold SE of Abate, inbound course
-> 123. He points out that
-> NDB berings always mean TO the nav aid.
I've always found it easier to figure all holding courses being from the
holding fix. VOR radials are always given from the station. (ex. Hold
east of the woodstown VOR on the 090 deg. radial)
If told to hold north of the Rainbow NDB on the 360 deg. bearing from
the NDB, you can visualize it just like the example with the VOR. Track
south to the station.
I have seen people teach students to use the "bearing to" and the
"bearing from" method when holding at NDBs. Thinking of the NDB bearing
as the VOR radial is easiest for me and if it works for you, go with it.
Paul Berman CFII
paul....@compudata.com
Jetson
According to the Canadian ATC MANOPS, there are 5 variants on the hold
clearance phraseology:
1) Standard holding clearance:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD (direction) ON (specified) RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND
TRACK
2) Non-standard holding clearance:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD (direction) ON (specified) RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND
TRACK, LEFT TURNS.
3) Detailed holding clearance:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD ON (specified) RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND TRACK, BETWEEN
(location) AND A POINT (number) MINUTES (direction), RIGHT/LEFT TURNS.
4) DME holding clearance:
CLEARED TO THE (name) TACAN/VOR/NDB (specified) RADIAL/BEARING (number) MILE
DME FIX, HOLD BETWEEN (number) AND (number) MILES.
5) Published holding pattern clearance:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD (direction) AS PUBLISHED.
In addition, the controller will specify an EFC/EAC time, as well as (if
required) the atitude and route to the fix, and the expected route after the
fix. For example:
N100 is cleared to the J NDB via direct, maintain 4000. Hold north on an
inbound track of 180 degrees. Expect approach clearance at 1220z.
In practise, hold clearances often bear little resemblance to the book. If
you don't understand what the controller wants you to do, ask for
clarification.
---
Jetson
Alex Schwassmann
sfor...@ix.netcom.com (Skip Forster) wrote concerning
"Re: Proper Phraseology for NDB Hold instructions ?":
SF> When necessary to issue holding instructions, specify:
[holding instructions deleted]
Sigh. Why do you have to do everything different? Here's what
ICAO says:
1. name of fix
2. inbound course
3. direction of turn
4. time outbound
5. minimum altitude
What's wrong with that?
... Alex
Alexander Schwaßmann // EMail: ALEX_SCH...@pluribus.wupper.de
my personal opinions ... \X/ ATC Germany - EDDL APP/TWR
Roy Smith
> 1. name of fix
Do fixes have to be named? Can you ever get a hold instruction where the
fix is something like "hold northeast of the intersection formed by V116
and the 180 radial from FOO VOR?"
--
Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Stan March
radios.
Published holds are for the convenience of you and them, so the clearance
can be as simple as "hold at LOVES, expect further clearance at :45".
There's nothing wrong with a clearance to hold NE on the Colts Neck VOR
060 radial 15 dme fix, left turns, five mile legs, EFC :30".
Spring conditions here!
Take care,
Stan
<=-----------------------=>
BGS...@prodigy.com
Arrow 2719C Islip NY (ISP)
<=-----------------------=>
John Stephens
Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu> wrote:
|> alex_sch...@pluribus.wupper.de (Alex Schwassmann) wrote:
|> > 1. name of fix
|>
|> Do fixes have to be named? Can you ever get a hold instruction where the
|> fix is something like "hold northeast of the intersection formed by V116
|> and the 180 radial from FOO VOR?"
Fixes do not have to be named, provided that they can be uniquely
identified.
Example: hold SW, INBOUND, at DME 10 on xxx VOR 240 radial. (or
words to that effect). There may well be no named intersection at
that location, but it is unambiguously identifiable with a radial
and DME distance.
What if you are not DME equipped, he(she) asks? "Unable" works
well! :-)
******************************************************************
* . *
* John Stephens ._______|_______. Montgomery County Airpark *
* COMM-ASEL \(*)/ ( GAI ) *
* C-172P N51078 o/ \o Gaithersburg, Maryland *
* *
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Alex Huppenthal
>> 1. name of fix
>
>Do fixes have to be named? Can you ever get a hold instruction where the
>fix is something like "hold northeast of the intersection formed by V116
>and the 180 radial from FOO VOR?"
>
"Hold NE of Rawer Intersection on the 088 from Neuberg" might be an
example.
In IFR training we practice NDB, Intersection & VOR holds. Intersections
can be the product of VOR, NDB and/or Localizers. So one hold we practice
here in Hillsboro is the intersection between an NDB bering the the
run 12 Localizer.
Alex Schwassmann
r...@nyu.edu (Roy Smith) wrote concerning
"Re: Proper Phraseology for NDB Hold instructions ?":
RS> Do fixes have to be named? Can you ever get a hold instruction where the
RS> fix is something like "hold northeast of the intersection formed by V116
RS> and the 180 radial from FOO VOR?"
Yes you can. "Name of fix" may also be an intersection of two VOR
radials, VOR radial/DME, or whatever.
Note that I, personally, would not issue instructions such as "hold
NORTHEAST of XYZ, but use "hold over intersection of radial 150 XYZ
and radial 220 ABC, inbound course 220, right turns, one-minute
patterns, at 5000 ft".
Northeast is too vague as it allows inbound courses from 360 to 090.
Pamela Fero
: fix is something like "hold northeast of the intersection formed by V116
: and the 180 radial from FOO VOR?"
Most certainly, however it would most likely only be done if you were
flying a NON-DME equipped aircraft or if the naviad that you are using
for the hold does not have DME (NDB or VOR). If you are DME equipped,
you could also be cleared to a 'made-up' fix, consisting of an
airway/radial and a DME.
As for the phraseology for holding at an NDB, this is how I clear
aircraft to hold:
--Cleared to the Ft. Pierce (FPR) NDB via direct, climb and maintain
4000, hold northwest on the FPR 304 bearing (from), expect further
clearance 1234.
Since I left out the direction of turns and the leg length, standard
turns are implied and leg length is at pilot's discretion.
--
Pamela Fero, ATCS
jus...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
---All comments are purely my own. Don't take my word as law!
Jetson
>--Cleared to the Ft. Pierce (FPR) NDB via direct, climb and maintain
>4000, hold northwest on the FPR 304 bearing (from), expect further
>clearance 1234.
>Since I left out the direction of turns and the leg length, standard
>turns are implied and leg length is at pilot's discretion.
>Pamela Fero, ATCS
Really? I believe the rules say that the inbound leg is to be 1 minute at or
below 14,000 feet, and 1.5 minutes above 14,000 feet. If you or the pilot
want the aircraft to fly "legs for comfort", leg length should be specified
either in terms of minutes or DME.
---
Jetson