Pitot Heat Problem
Brian Margolin
for an IFR training flight and I wanted to get the nets opinion about it. I
was going to fly the C172 that I have been using all along through my
instrument training on a short x-country (about 55nm) to practice
approaches before my check ride next Sat. There was another IFR training
flight scheduled before me in the plane with a different CFII. When the
plane returned the CFII told us that the pitot had iced up in the clouds
at 5000'. They were just at the freezing level and not picking up any
airframe ice. It turns out that the pitot heat was not working. The FBO
owner attempted to fix it but could not fix it without parts. He told us
to just fly without it.
My instructor and I discussed it and decided that it would be unwise to
go without pitot heat because we would be in the clouds and the temp
would definately be below 40F. On top of the pitot heat prob there were
a couple of other little probs and a pilot report of severe turbulence at
lower altitudes in our area. We felt that all of these things added up
to a definate no-go decision.
When we went inside our decision was immediately questioned by a number
of people. The previous instructor said that he would go and "who
ever looks at the ASI when at altitude anyway." An old timer who was
sitting around the airport told my instructor that if he would cancel a
flight because of lack of pitot heat that he wouldn't fly with him.
I was very upset by this attitude. It seemed like a macho contest (the
old timer even then went on to regale the crowd with stories about
picking up huge amounts of ice).
What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
on an IFR flight?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Margolin, PP-ASEL marg...@darkwing.uoregon.edu
Institute of Molecular Biology (503)346-5197
University of Oregon
Eugene, OR 97405
Lars-Henrik Eriksson
What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
on an IFR flight?
YES!
I can't believe that someone would actually ridicule you fot such a
decision. "Who looks at the ASI anyway", indeed! Well, even if they
never do, what about instrument redundancy. If you lose your AI, you
will need a working ASI very badly!
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson Internet: l...@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263 Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28 KISTA, SWEDEN Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
David Lindenauer
Margolin) writes:
>When the plane returned the CFII told us that the pitot had iced up in
>the clouds at 5000'. They were just at the freezing level and >not
>picking up any airframe ice. It turns out that the pitot heat was not
>working. ... He told us to just fly without it.
>
>My instructor and I discussed it and decided that it would be unwise to
>go without pitot heat because we would be in the clouds and the temp
>would definately be below 40F.
>When we went inside our decision was immediately questioned by a number
>of people.
>What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
>on an IFR flight?
Don't feel bad. You did the right thing:
1) If you did pick up airframe ice and the pitot was clogged, how would
you know how fast you were, so you could keep extra speed for the
unknown wing configuration?
2) How would you tell controller if you were not able to hold airspeed,
as required by FARs?
3) How would you verify pitch information in IMC without airspeed?
4) Without pitot heat, would you be confident that the ice in the pitot
would melt in time for you to have reliable airspeed info for approach
and landing, when it is critical?
I would not fly a plane without pitot heat in visible moisture near the
freezing levels. Period. I would suggest that if the people at your
FBO are that cavalier about your safety, they probably stretch other
safety issues too (including maintenance). If you believe this attitude
is pervasive at this FBO, (or worse, sanctioned by management), look for
other places to fly. If you believe that regulations are actually being
broken, I would not hesitate to contact your local FSDO and make a
complaint.
Gregory R. TRAVIS
pitch indication if their AI goes south while their pitot is
frozen over. Sure, the ASI isn't the "most important" instrument
during straight-and-level flight IF everything else is working
ok. Once things start to fail though, you're in deep doo-doo without it.
I would NEVER consider initiating an IFR flight into moisture (ESPECIALLY
when temps are close to freezing) without a heated pitot.
And anyone who sits around and "brags" about hauling a load of ice is
a fool, plain and simple. I would ask them what kind of a deficient
pilot gets himself or herself into such a situation in the first place.
I really would have let those guys have a piece of my mind.
greg
George Skip Guild
>From: marg...@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Brian Margolin)
>Subject: Pitot Heat Problem
>Date: 12 Dec 1994 06:38:52 GMT
>This afternoon I had a somewhat disturbing experience when getting ready
>for an IFR training flight and I wanted to get the nets opinion about it.
...
>When we went inside our decision was immediately questioned by a number
>of people. ...
>I was very upset by this attitude. It seemed like a macho contest (the
>old timer even then went on to regale the crowd with stories about
>picking up huge amounts of ice).
>What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
>on an IFR flight?
You (and your instructor) would be well served to find a different FBO to get
any further training (business) through. These bozos are UNSAFE.
In answer to your question, malfunction of ANY IFR-safety related items would
make the flight a NO-GO for me. You and your instructor were right to cancel
and my hat's off to you for making the right decision.
**********************************************************************
* sk...@mitre.org, | PP-ASEL-IA. Captain, CAP *
* FAX (617) 271-3044, | Cessna 150/172/172XP/182 *
* If all else fails human- | Piper Warrior/Archer *
* human at DSN 478-5980 | | *
* (MITRE ext 7619) or | ----|---- *
* (617) 271-7619. | x------(o)------x *
* | 0 0 0 *
**********************************************************************
John Stephens
Brian Margolin <marg...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
|> This afternoon I had a somewhat disturbing experience when getting ready
|> for an IFR training flight and I wanted to get the nets opinion about it. I
deleted]
|> My instructor and I discussed it and decided that it would be unwise to
|> go without pitot heat because we would be in the clouds and the temp
|> would definately be below 40F. On top of the pitot heat prob there were
|> a couple of other little probs and a pilot report of severe turbulence at
|> lower altitudes in our area. We felt that all of these things added up
|> to a definate no-go decision.
|>
|> When we went inside our decision was immediately questioned by a number
|> of people. The previous instructor said that he would go and "who
|> ever looks at the ASI when at altitude anyway." An old timer who was
|> sitting around the airport told my instructor that if he would cancel a
|> flight because of lack of pitot heat that he wouldn't fly with him.
|>
|> I was very upset by this attitude. It seemed like a macho contest (the
|> old timer even then went on to regale the crowd with stories about
|> picking up huge amounts of ice).
|>
|> What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
|> on an IFR flight?
I think your instructor showed the only professional attitude
evident at that FBO. I would be loathe to fly with that "old
timer" or any other instructor that had such a cavalier attitude
toward flight safety. Sure, a frozen pitot tube is not all that
critical on its own, but what if others things happened to fail as
well?
Also, it is an instructor's job to instill an appropriate sense of
responsibility and good judgment in his/her students. And when it
comes time for the Commercial checkride, most DEs value *judgment*
more highly than *perfectly polished flying skills*. At least in
*my* experience!
Congratulations on making the correct decision and sticking with
it despite the obvious peer pressure to take an unnecessary risk.
********************************************************************
* . *
* John Stephens ._______|_______. Montgomery County Airpark *
* COMM-ASEL \(*)/ ( GAI ) *
* C-172P N51078 o/ \o Gaithersburg, Maryland *
* *
********************************************************************
William W. Plummer
>Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
>on an IFR flight?
ASI is.
--Bill
----
William W. Plummer C, MASM, dBASE to your spec.
7 Country Club Dr. plu...@altamira.theme.com
Chelmsford, MA 01824 PP-ASEL, N1NGK, MA RE Broker
Home: 508-256-9570 (leave msg.) @TALL FASHIONS: 508-251-8844
Eric Hazen
>
[story about cancelled instruction due to dead pito heat]
> What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
> on an IFR flight?
>
I agree wholeheartedly with the majority... you and your instructor
were 100% right! I would NEVER take off into the clouds (especially
known icing) without pitot heat.
I think you should find a new FBO, if possible.
Garner R. Miller
(Brian Margolin) wrote:
> When we went inside our decision was immediately questioned by a number
> of people. The previous instructor said that he would go and "who
> ever looks at the ASI when at altitude anyway."
Ridiculous. While that may or may not be true, it obviously didn't cross
his mind that if you've got an iced-up pitot tube and cold temperatures,
it's very likely that you'll have ice (and a dead ASI) all the way down to
touchdown.
> An old timer who was
> sitting around the airport told my instructor that if he would cancel a
> flight because of lack of pitot heat that he wouldn't fly with him.
That old-timer takes more risks than I'm willing to.
> What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
> on an IFR flight?
When there's been REPORTED pitot icing? Unquestionably. With visible
moisture and low temperatures like that, deliberately flying into that ice
would be irresponsible IMHO. I think you made the right decision.
--
Garner R. Miller, CFI
System Operator of The Macintosh Network BBS
Palm Bay, FL - 407/984-3737 (HST/V32bis)
Q: What's another name for the "Intel Inside" sticker they put on Pentiums?
A: The warning label.
Bob Noel
> This afternoon I had a somewhat disturbing experience when getting ready
> for an IFR training flight and I wanted to get the nets opinion about it. I
> was going to fly the C172 that I have been using all along through my
> instrument training on a short x-country (about 55nm) to practice
> approaches before my check ride next Sat. There was another IFR training
> flight scheduled before me in the plane with a different CFII. When the
> plane returned the CFII told us that the pitot had iced up in the clouds
> at 5000'. They were just at the freezing level and not picking up any
> airframe ice. It turns out that the pitot heat was not working. The FBO
> owner attempted to fix it but could not fix it without parts. He told us
> to just fly without it.
>
[snip
>
> What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
> on an IFR flight?
>
1) Pitot heat is not required by US FAR for IFR flight.
2) The previous renter reported icing. Although it wasn't airframe
icing, "just" the pitot, that still makes it known icing in my book.
Since the 172 was no doubt NOT approved for flight into known icing,
I think you made a decision that was compliant with FAR, never
mind common sense.
--
Bob Noel aka Kobyashi Maru
I'd rather be flying.......
My views are my own, not MITRE's
(why use a disclaimer when people are
too ---------- to understand it?)
David Cristol
> What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
> on an IFR flight?
Never question a descision not to go. You did the right thing!
Just remember, it is you they will scrape off the ground for
a poor decision.
Earl Brabandt
>What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
>on an IFR flight?
For a flight in IMC in near freezing air? Definitely. Although the
airspeed indicator provides an important piece of information under
normal circumstances, it becomes even more important with the
relatively likely occurrence of a gyro instrument failure. It
provides the "A" in "ball-needle-airspeed." I think you'll
get plenty of assurances that you guys did the right thing by
staying on the ground. On the one occasion that I had a pitot
heat/ASI system failure after an hour in some pretty snowy IMC,
I got an immediate descent to VMC conditions at the MVA below.
After a landing and some delay waiting for weather to improve,
I concluded the flight VFR. Sure, I could have continued to
my destination. But I would have lost a very important instrument
if partial panel flight had become necessary.
Earl Brabandt ATP:SMEL, SES; CFI: ASMI
Henry Wong
writes:
>When we went inside our decision was immediately questioned by a number
>of people. The previous instructor said that he would go and "who
>ever looks at the ASI when at altitude anyway." An old timer who was
>sitting around the airport told my instructor that if he would cancel a
>flight because of lack of pitot heat that he wouldn't fly with him.
>
>I was very upset by this attitude. It seemed like a macho contest (the
>old timer even then went on to regale the crowd with stories about
>picking up huge amounts of ice).
>
>What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
>on an IFR flight?
>
Well, this is only *my* opinion, but I would make a no-go decision with a fail
pitot heater, and there is a good chance I would be IMC in freezing conditions.
Having actually lost the pitot heater in IMC, in severe icing conditions, I
can state that in my case, I didn't just lose the ASI, it drifted very
slowly, I keep cutting the power and triming the plane nose up because the
plane was going faster than I expected.
It took a long while before it was realize that there is no way she can go
that fast with the power setting she was on. (If it wasn't noticed, I might
have stalled it)
Besides, the ASI may not be neccessary at altitude, but try landing with
an airplane full of ice, no ASI, and unreliable altimeter. It is not fun...
Henry
Javier Henderson
I'd like to add that on some planes, such as Cherokees, the pitot tube and the
static port are all on the same post, so without pitot heat you're liable to
lose both the ASI as well as the VSI and the altitude indicator.
I agree with John: the only one displaying a professional attitude was your
instructor.
--
Javier Henderson (JH21)
hend...@mln.com
William W. Plummer
>that the pitot heat couldn't be fixed without new parts, did he
>remove the pitot heat system or otherwise disable it and placard
>the system as inop? If not, I don't believe that the plane was
>technically airworthy.
Good point, Bruce. I'll bet there is an FAR that says something like,
if the plane is equiped with an X , then X must either work to specs
or be labeled INOP. Is it the owner's responsibility to implement this
or the FBO which is in a lease for the plane and operates it? Or the
A&P guy who did the 100-hr inspection?
Tom G. Brusehaver/Consultant Euler Solutions
B> My instructor and I discussed it and decided that it would be
B> unwise to go without pitot heat because we would be in the clouds
B> and the temp would definately be below 40F. On top of the pitot
B> heat prob there were a couple of other little probs and a pilot
B> report of severe turbulence at lower altitudes in our area. We
B> felt that all of these things added up to a definate no-go
B> decision.
Up here in Minnesota, my instructor won't fly IFR without working
pitot heat. We have cancelled many times.
B> I was very upset by this attitude. It seemed like a macho contest
B> (the old timer even then went on to regale the crowd with stories
B> about picking up huge amounts of ice).
I agree. When I was doing PP-SEL training, A guy in a Bonanza got
fuel at the FBO where I was training, and while the tanks were filling
up, the pilot was breaking huge collections of ice off the plane, my
instructor called it tampering with evidence.
B> What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go
B> decision on an IFR flight?
We switched planes on Saturday because there was no pitot heat on the
plane we were supposed to fly. Everyone in the FBO agreed.
Turns out the other plane we went up in had other problems. When I
went to start it, it only turned half a prop, and stopped (hint#1).
Turned the key a second time and it fired right up. Taxied out to the
edge of the taxiway, called ground (on tower freq, oops), asked for
local IFR clearance for practice approaches. (ceilings were 3300
locally, but coming down, vis ~5 miles).
On our way to our first airport, approach called us telling us our
transponder wasn't working (hint#2). Looking at the light, it wasn't
blinking. We figured it was cold (~30deg F). We are at 3000MSL, and
in and out the clouds.
Approach was asking is what we wanted to do after our first approach,
and the instructor was talking about doing holds, differently.
Approach was getting scratchier and scratchier (hint#3). I said I
didn't like the way the radio sounded, so I took a look at the
ammeter, it is registering -20Amps (really, 1 2 and 3 make the total
here, oof!). I start shutting things off, pitot, lights, DME, I turn
off the transponder, but the instructor turns it back on, says it
might start working.
Now we are maybe -5Amps, so things are mostly under control. We call
approach, and ask if we can go back, and relate our situation, they
say do a 180, and descend to 2500MSL. This gets us out of the clouds,
and on our way back. Things were getting calm, I decide to play with
the alternator switch. Off, on the ammeter goes off scale for about 5
seconds, then back to -5. I tell the instructor (he saw me do it the
first time), off, on, off scale, but this time it stays there. The
ammeter slowly is coming down to 20A, and I am starting to recognize
landmarks. Approach has us do an approach back into our airport, and
the whole time, they are sending other traffic around us (we are low,
but without a transponder, they can't verify anything, the sky isn't
crowded, so there is room).
We land uneventfully, and I think we made the right descision. If the
alternator was intermittent, it could go out again, and who knows
where we would have been at that time.
I have to say it was fun, and glad it happened under those
circumstances. I think it gives a big boost to my confidence. Things
happen, I know it, but without the happening for real, there is some
doubt as to how you will react. I know this is a minor problem, but,
I felt like I was putting things together, could have been worse if we
had let it go any further.
--
---
t...@bnr.com home bnu002.uucp!tommyb!t...@bnu002.cncc.bnr.com
PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC)
!for an IFR training flight and I wanted to get the nets opinion about it. I
!was going to fly the C172 that I have been using all along through my
!instrument training on a short x-country (about 55nm) to practice
!approaches before my check ride next Sat. There was another IFR training
!flight scheduled before me in the plane with a different CFII. When the
!plane returned the CFII told us that the pitot had iced up in the clouds
!at 5000'. They were just at the freezing level and not picking up any
!airframe ice. It turns out that the pitot heat was not working. The FBO
!owner attempted to fix it but could not fix it without parts. He told us
!to just fly without it.
!
!My instructor and I discussed it and decided that it would be unwise to
!go without pitot heat because we would be in the clouds and the temp
!would definately be below 40F. On top of the pitot heat prob there were
!a couple of other little probs and a pilot report of severe turbulence at
!lower altitudes in our area. We felt that all of these things added up
!to a definate no-go decision.
!
!When we went inside our decision was immediately questioned by a number
!of people. The previous instructor said that he would go and "who
!ever looks at the ASI when at altitude anyway." An old timer who was
!sitting around the airport told my instructor that if he would cancel a
!flight because of lack of pitot heat that he wouldn't fly with him.
YOU did the right thing. YOU did not want to go. YOU did not like
the condition of the aircraft. YOU did not like the weather
conditions. YOU were PIC and it was YOUR decision. To hell with
the rest of the world you can't help it if they are WRONG.
I hope YOU never decide to fly with that old timer. HE is unsafe.
!I was very upset by this attitude. It seemed like a macho contest (the
!old timer even then went on to regale the crowd with stories about
!picking up huge amounts of ice).
!
!What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
!on an IFR flight?
In the winter, in visible moisture with temperatures below 40 degrees F,
YES.
In the summer, with clear skies, at low altitude where the temperature
is predicted to be above 40 degrees F probably not.
These are all judgement calls, based on conditions, your experience
level etc. Listen to advice and then YOU make the decision. Further
YOU do not have to even explain your reason for not making a flight.
YOU are PIC. It is YOUR call.
Dave Rogers
Roy Smith
do you do it? The checklist I use for the C-172 says something like
"alternator, check with flaps or pitot heat". When I jog the flaps, I see
the alternator needle flick. But, the last few times I've flown, I've tried
to check the pitot heat by flipping it on and off with the engine running
and I can't discern any movement of the alternator needle at all.
My instructor says the way to check the pitot heat is to put your hand on
the pitot while somebody turns the heat on and you should feel it get warm
in a few seconds. Is that really the only way? Kind of inconvenient to do
with the engine running, and after once almost not being able to crank the
motor after some profligate use of cabin lights, I've become very cautious
about using battery juice before starting up in the winter.
Should I be seeing the alternator needle move when I turn the pitot on with
the engine running at idle (1000 RPM)?
BTW, I think I might be starting to get the hang of holds. The other night
I finally got the CDI to center just as I finished rolling out of my turn
inbound. Kind of neat. Then, I forgot to click the airport lights on
during the approach. "Take the foggles off, the airport is right there."
"Where? I don't see anything." "There, that dark area between the other
dark areas...." click-click-click-click-click. "Oh, that airport!" :-)
--
Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Jerry Samsen
I believe your decision was a wise one. Accidents are usually a result of
a series of events and if there were other small "problems", your decision
to abort was a good one. Even with just an inop pitot heat, a functional ASI
is required by regs -- ice would make it inop.
good luck with your training, sounds like you have a good instructor..
Jerry Samsen, CFII
PAO
jsa...@ix.netcom.com
Bruce Bateman
>
>When we went inside our decision was immediately questioned by a number
>of people. The previous instructor said that he would go and "who
>ever looks at the ASI when at altitude anyway." An old timer who was
>sitting around the airport told my instructor that if he would cancel a
>flight because of lack of pitot heat that he wouldn't fly with him.
>
>I was very upset by this attitude. It seemed like a macho contest (the
>old timer even then went on to regale the crowd with stories about
>picking up huge amounts of ice).
>
>What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
>on an IFR flight?
>
I think the world is full of fools that are willing to risk your neck
for you and that you shouldn't worry about them. The only opinion in
that discussion that had any significant value was your own. If YOU
weren't comfortable flying, you shouldn't go...period!
Incidentally, inspite of the opinion of all those experts and
old farts, it may not have been LEGAL for you to go. Go check
the FARs on inoperative equipment. When the FBO owner determined
that the pitot heat couldn't be fixed without new parts, did he
remove the pitot heat system or otherwise disable it and placard
the system as inop? If not, I don't believe that the plane was
technically airworthy.
Bruce Bateman
Ed Falk
>In article <3cgr5s$7...@pith.uoregon.edu>,
>Brian Margolin <marg...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>
>>What do others out there think? Is lack of pitot heat a no-go decision
>>on an IFR flight?
>
Seconded. I had a pitot freeze up on me once during training. Maybe
only a 4 on the sphincter scale, but still very unsettling when you
suddenly don't know how fast you're going. If something else fails
on you, things could get very unpleasant very fast.
--
-ed falk, sun microsystems
fa...@sun.com
"Towards the end, the smell of their air began to change"
Lars-Henrik Eriksson
OK, so checking pitot heat is part of the required checks for IFR, but how
do you do it? The checklist I use for the C-172 says something like
"alternator, check with flaps or pitot heat". When I jog the flaps, I see
the alternator needle flick. But, the last few times I've flown, I've tried
to check the pitot heat by flipping it on and off with the engine running
and I can't discern any movement of the alternator needle at all.
My instructor says the way to check the pitot heat is to put your hand on
the pitot while somebody turns the heat on and you should feel it get warm
in a few seconds. Is that really the only way? Kind of inconvenient to do
with the engine running, and after once almost not being able to crank the
motor after some profligate use of cabin lights, I've become very cautious
about using battery juice before starting up in the winter.
I have always checked the pitot head during *preflight* by turning it
on with battery power and feeling with the hand if it gets hot.
This has never caused me any battery problems. It takes less than half
a minute to make this check. If your battery can't take that load, it
most likely wouldn't have been able to crank the engine in any case.
Tom Jackson
Noel) wrote:
> I check pitot heat as part of the walk around. Turn on half the master,
> turn on the nav lights (and pitot heat), and quickly run around to make
> sure the lights and heat work. Just be careful, it gets hot very quickly.
I'd like to second how hot it gets. I was helping our mechanic work on
our Aztec one day, and turned on the pitot heat to test the electrical
system. Since it was only ground operation, and we weren't going to fly
it, I hadn't removed the pitot tube cover! This is the standard fake
leather boot with the orange warning flag you get from Sporty's.
About five minutes later, I smelled hot plastic! That was all it took. I
scraped off the gooey remains, and have been careful to keep my pitot
naked while in use.
--
Tom Jackson Medical College of Georgia
Aztec N888SB Geriatric Service
DNL Augusta, GA 30912
Bob Noel
wrote:
> OK, so checking pitot heat is part of the required checks for IFR, but how
> do you do it? The checklist I use for the C-172 says something like
> "alternator, check with flaps or pitot heat". When I jog the flaps, I see
> the alternator needle flick. But, the last few times I've flown, I've tried
> to check the pitot heat by flipping it on and off with the engine running
> and I can't discern any movement of the alternator needle at all.
>
I check pitot heat as part of the walk around. Turn on half the master,
turn on the nav lights (and pitot heat), and quickly run around to make
sure the lights and heat work. Just be careful, it gets hot very quickly.
--
Bob Noel aka Kobyashi Maru
ok, so I can't type...
Leo Massarani
> motor after some profligate use of cabin lights, I've become very cautious
> about using battery juice before starting up in the winter.
You mean to say you takeoff IFR with a batery that can barelly crank your engine?
That's much worse than not checking pitot heat. If your batery is so depleted, it will
take a few hours for it to be recharged by the alternator. Now, if you loose your
alternator in flight, you'll have only a few seconds or very few minutes before
you lose all com and nav capabilities (assuming you don't have redundant alternators).
For single alternator planes (most singles) a good charged batery is good insurance
in any IFR flight. A good charged batery, with proper power management, can keep your
nave equipment going for up to an hour, allowing you to complete an instrument
approach after alternator failure with ease.
George Photakis
>In article <3cgr5s$7...@pith.uoregon.edu> marg...@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Brian
>Margolin) writes:
>Dave Rogers
I concur wholeheartedly with the above comments..
Last XMAS, I had a trip planned in my Tobago that went:
Columbus, Ohio OSU(homebase) to Youngstown, Ohio
Spend Xmas with in-laws..
YNG to Sarrasota-Brenenton
4 days in sunny florida
Sarrasota to Atlanta
3 days in rainy atlanta
Atlanta to Columbus (home sweet home)
Before the approach to Youngstown I switched on the pitot heat before
decending into the clouds but no yellow light on the panel and no familiar
alternator buzz change in my headphones. Pitot Heat was out.. I flew the
approach with no difficulty and landed without incident..
I had the FBO staff Fed-Ex in another pitot tube over XMAS and install it
(BIG BUCKS) before I would even consider making the rest of the trip.
On the ILS approach back to OSU airport on New Years Day, I decended from
9000' and picked up a load of ice that still makes me shiver!! If I had not
insisted on replacing the pitot before continuing my trip it would have frozen
up for sure. I would be in deep doo-doo trying to maintain my airspeed in
those icing conditions. The thickness of the clouds were from 9000' MSL to
800' AGL.
You absolutely did the correct thing! Congratulations, good decision.
George Photakis
Tobago N106F
STUART M. TOMARES
Leo Massarani <le...@carfax.ims.advantis.com> wrote:
>> and after once almost not being able to crank the
>> motor after some profligate use of cabin lights, I've become very cautious
>> about using battery juice before starting up in the winter.
>
>You mean to say you takeoff IFR with a batery that can barelly crank your engine?
>That's much worse than not checking pitot heat. If your batery is so depleted, it will
>take a few hours for it to be recharged by the alternator. Now, if you loose your
>alternator in flight, you'll have only a few seconds or very few minutes before
>you lose all com and nav capabilities (assuming you don't have redundant alternators).
I agree. Had my first scare IFR (fortunately with my CFII) the other
day. We flew up to Harrisburg PA and shot the ILS at Capital City with
forecast W4 X 1F. We got in ok there (the ceiling was actually a bit
higher), and prepared to fly back to Baltimore. Everything checked out
fine on my pre-takeoff checklist (including the alternator). We got
clearance and were off. Just before entering the soup at 500ft. I
glanced at the alternator and saw the needle all the way left (major
discharge) and my heart started racing. We quickly shut down nearly
everything electrical, and were, I guess, mentally preparing for total
nav/com loss. The needles of the VOR were just starting to act funny
(2-3 minutes later) when I noticed out of the corner of my eye that the
breaker labeled ALT had blown. Of course we were back in shape in no
time, and ATC just thought we were late calling them up.
I learned a lot. Check the breakers! Heavy loads like landing lights on
the takeoff roll can trip the breaker. FLY THE PLANE -- keep control
even when things are piling up on you. Don't fly with a worn down
battery (we had drained it quite a bit due to winter slow start
problems). Finally, a good, well charged handheld NAV/COM radio is a
must (preferably with extra AA battery pack as well).
Incidentally, I had a well charged Icom A21 in my flight bag, but during
the 3 minutes of "excitement" I forgot it was even there! My first time
I was "up there wishing I was down here". Our next flight all went well
-- of course we were in VFR :)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stuart Tomares, M.D. (PP-ASEL) Office: (410) 955-2035
Johns Hopkins Children's Center Fax: (410) 955-1030
Internet: stom...@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
Bruce Bateman
>>When the FBO owner determined
>>that the pitot heat couldn't be fixed without new parts, did he
>>remove the pitot heat system or otherwise disable it and placard
>>the system as inop? If not, I don't believe that the plane was
>>technically airworthy.
>
>Good point, Bruce. I'll bet there is an FAR that says something like,
>if the plane is equiped with an X , then X must either work to specs
>or be labeled INOP. Is it the owner's responsibility to implement this
>or the FBO which is in a lease for the plane and operates it? Or the
>A&P guy who did the 100-hr inspection?
>--Bill
>
Yes, there is such an FAR, the one to which I was refering. Sorry, don't
have my FARs here so I can't quote chapter and verse, but its the FAR
that deals with in-operative equipment and MELs (Minimum Equipment Lists).
The FAR essentially states that unless an MEL exists for the specific
airframe, then the aircraft cannot be flown if any piece of equipment
is inoperative UNLESS it is either removed from the aircraft OR otherwise
disabled (such as by pulling and securing the circuit breaker) and
placarded as inoperative. I don't recall how nit-picky the FAR is -
i.e., if an airvent is stuck open, I don't think that qualifies as
a piece of INOP equipment.)
As to who's responsible, I believe that the OPERATOR is resonsible
for maintaining the aircraft in an airworthy condition - in this
case this would be the FBO. The pilot is responsible for determining
that the aircraft is airworthy before he flies it. In this specific
case, if the pilot and his instructor had actually choosen to fly the
plane, I think both the FBO and the pilot could have been on the hook
because both knew the pitot heat was INOP and thus the FBO/OPERATOR
was failing to maintain airworthiness and the pilot would have
knowingly flown a non-airworthy aircraft.
Bruce Bateman
Roy Smith
> Just before entering the soup at 500ft. I glanced at the alternator and
> saw the needle all the way left (major discharge) and my heart started
> racing.
Wow. What a coincidence. I just had an electrical failure too. Had an
instrument lesson tonight. I was under the hood, but it was severe clear,
so we really were never in any trouble, but it did make me think.
We were just climbing out of Caldwell, NJ when I called up NY Approach for
VFR flight following and got a squawk code. The first thing I noticed was
the VOR I was tracking kept flicking from "TO" to "NAV". My instructor
suggested I just try the other radio, and that one worked fine. Then, NY
Approach says he's not getting our xponder code and suggests recycling,
which we do. Soon after that, NYApp comes back and says he's still not
getting our xponder. That's about when my instructor says, "Uh, did you do
anything to the lights?", and we notice the "Low voltage" lamp is lit. I
didn't notice the alternator needle doing anything strange, but the panel
lights were certainly getting dim!
We told NYApp that we're having problems and we're heading back to Caldwell.
Recycled the alternator, which didn't help. Started turning things off
(ADF, one NAV/COM, strobes (still had a rotating beacon), landing light).
To make a long story short, we got to make use of my brand-new handheld (a
present for passing my PP-ASEL checkride). My instructor gave me vectors
back to the airport (I had taken the foggles off when things started looking
exciting, but put them back on once we sort of got things organized), called
up the Tower on the handheld and we got landing clearance over the radio.
Tower said they would give us light signals too, but I never saw any. By
the time we landed, I had just about enough panel lights to just barely read
the DG and ASI (I had a flashlight in the map pocket, but it never occurred
to me to use it, duh!)
Some observations. In good VMC, this was not a serious problem. Even at
night, the lack of good panel lights was more an annoyance than anything
else, and had we lost them completely, we still had flashlights (I have 3 in
my flight bag). The guy who invented the magneto ignition system deserves a
Nobel Prize, however. Same for the guy who invented pitot-static and vacuum
instrument systems. In IMC, I'm sure it would have been a lot more
exciting.
We never lost the turn coordinator, BTW. I guess that doesn't take much
juice to keep it running. We also had enough power to get the flaps down
for the approach (and back up after landing, as it turned out). I remember
reading recently on the net to only use 10 flaps, in case you need a
go-around, and my instructor said the same thing. We ended up coming in
high and fast (my fault, I got so absorbed with other stuff, I flew a
horrible pattern) so I dumped in full flaps eventually, but only once we
were over the threshold. In retrospect, maybe that was dumb, but that's
what I did. We used up about 2800-3000 feet of runway (out of 4000 and a
few hundred available). At Andover, we would have probably survived but
broken the airplane pretty good (2000 foot runway).
One sort of eye-opener was what would have happened if we didn't have the
handheld and lost the aircraft power completely? Land at an uncontrolled
field? This is at night. With no radio to turn the runway lights on, no
thank you. OK, be careful, look around, and come into Caldwell's Class D
NORDO and look for light signals? With no lights on in the plane, what's
the chance the guy in the tower is even going to see us before we call him
up on the telephone after parking the plane? I guess I could just sort of
buzz the tower and hope he spots us, but once I'm in the immediate vicinity
of the airport, with no lights on, landing clearance or not, I suspect the
smartest thing would be to just get on the ground as soon as possible.
I did get to land the airplane with no landing lights. Wasn't as hard as I
thought it might be, but Caldwell's pretty well lit on the ground, and there
was a fair amount of moonlight.
Oh, did I mention the other random excitement? Just before all this
started, my instructor says "I've got the airplane, you can take off your
foggles". I'm not sure what he's got in mind, but I do as he says. Then he
says, "Your door's not latched". Huh? So, I futz with that for a while,
make it worse (still not latched, but now the locking lever is sticking
straight up into my side and won't move), and eventually give up. It is a
strange feeling to be trying to open a door at 2200 AGL! Anyway, latched or
no, it doesn't budge until we're almost stopped after landing. Next time I
notice an open door, I think I'm just going to leave well enough alone and
let it be until I land.
David Cristol
> reading recently on the net to only use 10 flaps, in case you need a
> go-around, and my instructor said the same thing. We ended up coming in
> high and fast (my fault, I got so absorbed with other stuff, I flew a
> horrible pattern) so I dumped in full flaps eventually, but only once we
> were over the threshold. In retrospect, maybe that was dumb, but that's
> what I did. We used up about 2800-3000 feet of runway (out of 4000 and a
> few hundred available). At Andover, we would have probably survived but
> broken the airplane pretty good (2000 foot runway).
Your high and fast approach was probably caused by two common problems.
At night we all tend to fly faster without the normal visual clues. You
also are a lot less draggy with 10 degrees of flaps than you are used to.
A go around would not have been a bad idea, also I am sure you would have
gone around at the shorter field. One other point to ponder, why go into
a short field at night with now power, go to a bigger runway and worry
about getting the plane to base during the day.
>
> One sort of eye-opener was what would have happened if we didn't have the
> handheld and lost the aircraft power completely? Land at an uncontrolled
> field? This is at night. With no radio to turn the runway lights on, no
> thank you. OK, be careful, look around, and come into Caldwell's Class D
> NORDO and look for light signals? With no lights on in the plane, what's
> the chance the guy in the tower is even going to see us before we call him
> up on the telephone after parking the plane? I guess I could just sort of
> buzz the tower and hope he spots us, but once I'm in the immediate vicinity
> of the airport, with no lights on, landing clearance or not, I suspect the
> smartest thing would be to just get on the ground as soon as possible.
>
At night, I would use the see and avoid concept. Other traffic should be easy to spot.
If the tower cannot see you land. Remeber it is okay to break the rules in
an emergancy. I would not try to land at an unlit field. I would rather
go to a field with lights even if I had to call the tower and explain.
(note: if you are really blacked out, you may be able to get in without being noticed
:-;)
> I did get to land the airplane with no landing lights. Wasn't as hard as I
> thought it might be, but Caldwell's pretty well lit on the ground, and there
> was a fair amount of moonlight.
>
I always practice several no landing light landings when I bone up on
night flying. Those 30 cent bulbs, for which we pay $40 :-; , tend to
quit at the darndest times.
Javier Henderson
>
> I check pitot heat as part of the walk around. Turn on half the master,
> turn on the nav lights (and pitot heat), and quickly run around to make
> sure the lights and heat work. Just be careful, it gets hot very quickly.
Just curious...
When do you all turn on your pitot heater? I turn it on as I roll onto the
runway, right before the xpndr goes to "ALT". I do it for every flight, not
just those in IMC, just so I don't forget to turn it on when I really need it.
It goes off right after the xpndr goes to stand, during the after landing
checklist.
I used to turn it on right after turning on the tail beacon, but a CFII once
suggested the above procedure. His reasoning was that the heating element will
get way too hot on the ground and will fail prematurely.
Roy Sardina
stom...@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu (STUART M. TOMARES) writes:
> Just before entering the soup at 500ft. I glanced at the alternator and
> saw the needle all the way left (major discharge) and my heart started
> racing.
Wow. What a coincidence. I just had an electrical failure too. Had an
instrument lesson tonight. I was under the hood, but it was severe clear,
so we really were never in any trouble, but it did make me think.
We were just climbing out of Caldwell, NJ when I called up NY Approach for
VFR flight following and got a squawk code. The first thing I noticed was
the VOR I was tracking kept flicking from "TO" to "NAV". My instructor
suggested I just try the other radio, and that one worked fine. Then, NY
Approach says he's not getting our xponder code and suggests recycling,
which we do. Soon after that, NYApp comes back and says he's still not
getting our xponder. That's about when my instructor says, "Uh, did you do
anything to the lights?", and we notice the "Low voltage" lamp is lit. I
didn't notice the alternator needle doing anything strange, but the panel
lights were certainly getting dim!
--------- Begin Reply ---------
I had a similar problem when flying back from Mendicino CA. I was
tooling along in my PA28-235, and my Bose Headset started fluttering a
little, then I noticed later my transponder light was a "little dim", and
Oakland Center asked me to recycle before I got into the SFO TCA.
FINALLY I looked at the alternator and realized I had very little time
left on the battery. Turned everything I could off and landed at Gnoss
Field(Marin County) with NOTHING working. The alternator cable had come
off.
What embarassed me the most was that I never looked at ALL my gauges in
my scan (I think I've improved now), and not figuring it out when the
headsets gave me trouble. I also placed an order for a hand held the
next morning. My wife who never loved the money I spent on the airplane,
was more than happy for me to spend the money on a handheld after that.
I was glad I caught the problem before entering the SFO TCA, there is
alot of traffic there to not have a functioning radio.
Roy Sardina
Bonanza A36 N4600S
sardina@iberia
Roy Smith
> Wow. What a coincidence. I just had an electrical failure too.
BTW, I spoke to the maintenance guys in the FBO the next day and asked what
it was. He said a bad battery. My first reaction was "Huh? That's nuts,
the battery was the only thing still working". But, thinking about it, I
wonder if it could have been a shorted cell. That would give, I would
think, the same symptoms.
John Stephens
|> When do you all turn on your pitot heater? I turn it on as I roll onto the
|> runway, right before the xpndr goes to "ALT". I do it for every flight, not
|> just those in IMC, just so I don't forget to turn it on when I really need it.
|> It goes off right after the xpndr goes to stand, during the after landing
|> checklist.
|>
|> I used to turn it on right after turning on the tail beacon, but a CFII once
|> suggested the above procedure. His reasoning was that the heating element will
|> get way too hot on the ground and will fail prematurely.
I don't turn the pitot heat on (for flight) unless I am going to
be flying in visible moisture below 40 degrees F. Just as I don't
leave my outside lights on at home during the daytime. I believe
that the extra usage of the pitot heater is more likely to cause
an in-flight failure than I am likely to forget it during IMC
below 40 degrees. I will do a pre-flight check of it before any
flight where there is *any chance* of needing it, and as my plane
is on leaseback, I also check it before most flights, just in case
it has failed and not been squawked.
If I expect to need pitot heat during the flight, then I will turn
it on when I activate the transponder, just before taking the
active. If I encounter unexpected clouds enroute (filed IFR of
course) then I will turn it on prior to entering IMC.
I believe each pilot should work out a consistent strategy for
remembering things like pitot heat, nav lights, transponder
activation, strobes, or anything else that is not used all the
time from engine start to shutdown. Consistency is the key, not
uniformity among pilots. To each, his (her) own.
********************************************************************
* . *
* John Stephens ._______|_______. Montgomery County Airpark *
* COMM-ASEL \(*)/ ( GAI ) *
* C-172P N51078 o/ \o Gaithersburg, Maryland *
* *
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