Alternate for SNS
Marty Ross
my DE has assigned me Salinas (SNS), and I'm looking for an alternate, just
in case the weather on Wednesday requires one.
Since I'm not very experienced at this, I'll relate my logic:
(1) I'd like a place close to SNS
(2) It should have a good chance of way-above-minimums or even VFR at my
ETA; that's why I look eastward (presumably drier, less chance of advection
fog?)
(3) It should have an instrument approach
The first place that comes into view on my WAC is Hollister (3O7), however
it doesn't appear to have an instrument approach I can use. I could choose
it if it's forecast to be solid VFR conditions at my ETA, which I consider
to be a significant restriction at this stage of my planning.
Next, I see Watsonville (WVI) and it has two approaches I can do, however it
appears much closer to the ocean and more likely of having bad weather.
It really would be nice if there was a website from which I could forecast
the probabilities of VFR/MVFR/IFR weather at a given airport (or would show
me group of airports within a given area) to help me with this!
For now, judging from the approaches and from what I found on "weather.com"
and TAFs, I'll choose Watsonville in this preliminary version of my Flight
Plan.
Also -- regarding route -- I've currently chosen to fly V25 instead of the
more direct route of V107 V137 because of the lower MEAs.
Any helpful ideas or real-life experiences flying this trip (or a variant of
it) will be appreciated!
Heber Ferraz-Leite
> (1) I'd like a place close to SNS
>
> (2) It should have a good chance of way-above-minimums or even VFR at my
> ETA; that's why I look eastward (presumably drier, less chance of
advection
> fog?)
>
> (3) It should have an instrument approach
>
How about:
Hayward (HWD) ?
Monterey (MRY) ?
San Jose (SJC) ?
Watsonville (WVI) ?
OK, I admit they are all not eastward ... but I couldn't find any good
suggestion eastward, unless you want to go as far as Fresno.
Good luck,
Heber
Hilton
It's safe to assume that MRY, SNS, and WVI will all have the same weather.
The valley (SFO down to 3O7) can be VFR or IFR (check the TAFs) - the fog
usually/often/sometimes burns off in the late morning.
I would suggest making PRB an alternate - it's on your way and if ATC et al
tell you SNS is socked in, land there. Of course, there is always Harris
Ranch - you might just wish SNS was socked in. ;)
BTW: You have three areas up here: 1: MRY, SNS, WVI (ocean), 2: SJC, 3O7,
Q99, RHV, PAO, OAK (Silicon Valley etc), and 3: MOD, MER, SAC (The Big
Valley :)). Each of these gets fogged in at times, sometimes all at the
same time, sometimes none, and sometimes a combination. So play it by ear
and listen carefully to the briefer and make your decision on the morning
since the nightly forecast although most often correct, can be quite wrong.
Hope this helps, fly well on the checkride...
Hilton
"Marty Ross" <nood...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:iGyHa.2440$iG6.2...@news3.news.adelphia.net...
Craig Prouse
> (1) I'd like a place close to SNS
>
> (2) It should have a good chance of way-above-minimums or even VFR at my
> ETA; that's why I look eastward (presumably drier, less chance of advection
> fog?)
>
> (3) It should have an instrument approach
Good. While considering your aircraft range, don't get too hung up on the
"close" part. You really want an airport that is not even subject to the
same weather patterns as your filed destination. Personally, I try to make
sure that my required alternate has an ILS.
> The first place that comes into view on my WAC is Hollister (3O7), however
> it doesn't appear to have an instrument approach I can use. I could choose
> it if it's forecast to be solid VFR conditions at my ETA, which I consider
> to be a significant restriction at this stage of my planning.
> Next, I see Watsonville (WVI) and it has two approaches I can do, however it
> appears much closer to the ocean and more likely of having bad weather.
You are correct, sir. WVI would be a poor choice for an alternate. I've
shot approaches at WVI where I wasn't even down to the tops of the clouds
yet at MDA.
When CFIIs want to show their students what it's like to fly all the way
down to MDA or DH and have to miss because everything is still gray, these
are the airports to use (MRY, SNS, WVI). All three of them can be very,
very low, and all three of them can go low together.
> It really would be nice if there was a website from which I could forecast
> the probabilities of VFR/MVFR/IFR weather at a given airport (or would show
> me group of airports within a given area) to help me with this!
Granted.
http://aviationweather.gov/awc/taf/taf-menu.html
> For now, judging from the approaches and from what I found on "weather.com"
> and TAFs, I'll choose Watsonville in this preliminary version of my Flight
> Plan.
Oops. Well, I would suggest SJC. It's really not that far from SNS, maybe
45 NM. The weather is usually completely different. SJC has an ILS, and
it's in a big metropolitan area, so you'll be able to find transportation to
a hotel and something to eat while you wait out the weather. If you divert
into WVI you may end up sleeping in your airplane.
Keep in mind that you don't have to go to your declared alternate under any
circumstances. It's really just for fuel planning. But if you plan to be
able to make it to SJC, you get a TAF and many small reliever airports in
the same vicinity. You're really giving yourself a number of options.
> Also -- regarding route -- I've currently chosen to fly V25 instead of the
> more direct route of V107 V137 because of the lower MEAs.
>
> Any helpful ideas or real-life experiences flying this trip (or a variant of
> it) will be appreciated!
No matter what route you fly, you'll probably need to fly at least part of
it at 10,000. I usually file and fly the whole trip at 10,000. I may get a
little punchy by the end of a long flight at that altitude unless I use my
portable O2. Between the altitude and the distance with IFR reserves
(against the prevailing wind), you start to see the limitations of the C172
and Archer for IFR travel.
For a long time, the SNS ILS Rwy 31 approach was NOTAMed out of service.
Double check. Note that if you have to fly the LOC/DME Rwy 31 approach
instead that it has (count 'em) five stepdowns. I flew that one for
currency just a couple days ago and it's a busy approach.
Snowbird
> my DE has assigned me Salinas (SNS), and I'm looking for an alternate, just
> in case the weather on Wednesday requires one.
> It really would be nice if there was a website from which I could forecast
> the probabilities of VFR/MVFR/IFR weather at a given airport (or would show
> me group of airports within a given area) to help me with this!
Try this:
http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/tafs/java/
On the day of the flight, at the same site, try also the java METAR
tool. The icing forecasts are also useful -- generally very useful
site.
WRT alternates, that's not my neck of the woods and I can't
help you w/ specifics.
However, I'll share $0.02 anyway.
Be aware of the fact that choosing an alternate airport which
meets the FAA criteria is neither necessary nor sufficient for
safe IFR flight planning. :( :(.
For example, you can choose an airport where the weather appears
to be a safe bet but lower than will allow descent from the MIA
under VFR, which has only a GPS approach. This might be safe
flight planning -- even w/out RAIM in a pinch perhaps you could
maintain terrain clearance while you descend out of the clouds,
fly along and land under VFR -- but it's not FAA legal.
OTOH, you can choose a nearby airport which has a forecast for
> 600-1 and an ILS and thus meets FAA criteria -- but which
lies or potentially lies w/in the same wx system thus if your
destination goes sock-o your alternate might not do you
a bit of good because every airport w/ in that system can
sock down at the same time.
Be aware that there have been several fuel exhaustion accidents
where the pilot followed FAA-mandated flight planning procedures
to the "t" and couldn't get in at either his destination or
alternate.
What I suspect the examiner wants to see from you here, is
awareness of weather systems and the idea of choosing an
alternate which is in a different weather system. He may
also want to see awareness of where the nearest ILS is (if
your destination isn't served by one). And of course
satisfying the fuel requirements.
We have a tendency to choose the nearest airport with an ILS
as our FAA-approved alternate, if the forecast meets the
criteria. If our destination has an ILS, we have a tendency
to choose the nearest airport with a bigger honking ALS.
It's legal, but it's far from sufficient to our planning,
and has little to do with our real intentions in most
scenarios.
Our non-FAA mandated flight planning is often quite
different: we will be thinking about places where we could
bail along the route if the forecast goes to heck, and
we will know where the nearest stable VFR weather is before
we take off. Enroute, we will monitor the weather and ask
if our destination still looks good and whether we can still
reach that VFR wx comfortably at maximum-range airspeed.
If the answer to either question turns to "maybe" or "no",
it's time to at least think about landing for fuel and
maybe about looking for a nice motel with an indoor pool
and jacuzzi.
Off the path of what you asked for, I know.
Cheers,
Sydney
Mike Rapoport
will likely be lower are WVI. I have flown the approach at WVI and was
*above* the clouds at MDA! SJC would be a much better alternate. It is one
ridgeline inland and has an ILS.
Mike
MU-2
"Marty Ross" <nood...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:iGyHa.2440$iG6.2...@news3.news.adelphia.net...
Sriram Narayan
Without an ILS, it is unlikely you will land if there is a deep marine
layer around. One time I had to divert to SNS when I couldn't land at
WVI. Most of the more inland airports will be tend to be VFR at this
time of the year, but might not be convenient for you. SJC is your
best bet if you must get in to the SF Bay area.
Sriram/LVK, CA
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:37:02 GMT, "Marty Ross" <nood...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Marty Ross
back to the table in just a bit and consider using SJC or PRB (according to
fuel/weather) as my alternate.
Another question that's come up is the strange feeder/transition to the
initial segment of the SNS ILS RWY 31 approach. The best I can deduce from
looking at the plate is that I'm supposed to intercept the SNS DME 22 arc
from V25 by making some sort of a quick left 90 degree turn followed by a
quick right into what looks like it's published as a standard rate turn to
intercept the localizer. This sounds really strange, so I'm not sure that's
the right transition. Can someone set me straight about how to transition
to the approach from V25, or describe what that transition is really like
while flying it?
Also, for my flight plan, should the last items be "V25 SNS" or should I
include the IAF in there, e.g.: "V25 CHUALAR SNS"... ?
Strange stuff, I think I'll go practice it on my sim...
:-?
"Marty Ross" <nood...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:iGyHa.2440$iG6.2...@news3.news.adelphia.net...
Craig Prouse
> Another question that's come up is the strange feeder/transition to the
> initial segment of the SNS ILS RWY 31 approach. The best I can deduce from
> looking at the plate is that I'm supposed to intercept the SNS DME 22 arc
> from V25 by making some sort of a quick left 90 degree turn followed by a
> quick right into what looks like it's published as a standard rate turn to
> intercept the localizer. This sounds really strange, so I'm not sure that's
> the right transition. Can someone set me straight about how to transition
> to the approach from V25, or describe what that transition is really like
> while flying it?
Realistically, you can expect clearances to descend and radar vectors to the
final approach course. Practical IFR is often disappointingly simple
compared to your training flights and the complexity of what is published on
the approach plate. (Just when you get complacent, you'll go into some
nonradar airport like Bend, Oregon, and the loneliness is amazing.)
There is a lot of IFR training at SNS and they'd be more than happy to let
you fly the DME arc if you really want to do that. If I were NORDO coming
up V25, what I would do is just turn left heading 280 at 22 DME and
intercept the localizer. That is safe, it's easy, it approximates the DME
arc, and it's pretty close to the vector you'd get from ATC.
There's another way to become established on the approach other than the DME
arc. You can fly V25 all the way to SNS, reverse course, track the
localizer outbound for a procedure turn, and then back to the airport.
> Also, for my flight plan, should the last items be "V25 SNS" or should I
> include the IAF in there, e.g.: "V25 CHUALAR SNS"... ?
For many reasons, I'd file V25 SNS (direct) KSNS.
These are my top four reasons:
1. CHUALAR (UAD) is not on V25.
2. UAD is not your IAF; your IAF is where V25 crosses the DME arc.
3. If you fly to SNS, there is a published feeder route back to UAD.
4. If you file obscure intersections/LOMs, you'll just confuse your FSS
briefer and the ATC computer.
Jim Weir
consider PRB as your alternate.
How do the RULES read? 91.167 paraphrased: "...fuel to the airport of intended
landing, plus fuel to the alternate, plus a 45 minute reserve...". The
suggestion was to use PRB as the alternate, and if SNS was clobbered, simply
divert to PRB without ever going to SNS. That's not the way the rule reads. TO
the intended, thence TO the alternate, thence 45 minutes. Landing early is not
an alternative when calculating fuel.
The real world works just like the suggestion. Why take a shot at something so
far below minimums that you are just turning gasoline into noise and wasted
speed? Just land at the alternate directly.
Jim
"Marty Ross" <nood...@hotmail.com>
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
->Thanks everyone for the great replies to this thread! Indeed, I will go
->back to the table in just a bit and consider using SJC or PRB (according to
->fuel/weather) as my alternate.
Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com j...@rst-engr.com
Jerry Kaidor
> As others have said, WVI will have invariably worse weather than SNS.
> Without an ILS, it is unlikely you will land if there is a deep marine
> layer around. One time I had to divert to SNS when I couldn't land at
> WVI. Most of the more inland airports will be tend to be VFR at this
> time of the year, but might not be convenient for you. SJC is your
> best bet if you must get in to the SF Bay area.
*** Unless you have to actually land. If you do, SJC can be harmful
to your wallet. I seem to remember a tiedown fee of $40 if you stay
1/2 hour or longer. Probably higher by now. They also have the
highest avgas prices in the Bay Area. SJC has become GA-unfriendly.
True, they have an ILS, but
*guess what*? They'll make you sidestep so as not to sully the
airline runway -
so you don't get to use the good low minimums....
I would go for RHV - don't they have at least a GPS approach? If
you must have an ILS, there's OAK.
- Jerry Kaidor ( je...@tr2.com )
Craig Prouse
> I would go for RHV - don't they have at least a GPS approach?
A GPS approach is all they have at RHV, which limits its usefulness as a
filed alternate. The minimums on the GPS approach are 400 feet above TPA,
which limits its usefulness when you actually need an instrument approach.
John Harper
on the couple of occasions I've flown in there IFR, I've landed on
30L with the jets. (Normally for me SJC is a 12 minute VFR hop from PAO
to the avionics shop :-( ).
In normal south Bay IMC (1200'+ ceilings) you could make a low approach
at SJC and scud run to the airport of your choice - RHV, PAO, SQL or
even HWD. And if the weather really closes in, well $40 is a good deal
for staying alive if you ask me.
John
"Jerry Kaidor" <je...@tr2.com> wrote in message
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Al
Then, if you actually NEED an alternate, you can go wherever you want. No
rule says that you HAVE to go to your alternate if your radio works.
More than likely you'll need a different plan than whatever you come up with
beforehand if things go to crap. At least in the real world.
--
remove underscores to email
"Craig Prouse" <cra...@apple.com> wrote in message
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