Is IFR flight any fun ?
Andrew M. Sarangan
Just a naiive question from a VFR pilot with low hours and no IFR
experience (except for the hood time I did for my Private)..
How much fun is it to fly IFR ? I mean, if you can't see anything
out your window, what difference does it make whether you are in an
airplane paying $60/hr or sitting in your living room in front of your tv ?
I know that all-weather-flying is important from a transportation point of
view, but what does it offer from a purely fun point of view ? What
do all you IFR pilots think ?
John Prickett
In article <5jeql5$9o...@musca.unm.edu>,
it's the most fun you'll love to hate. i mean, it's kind of like
the ultimate video game, where 'game over' means you're dead. i
don't know if i would actually refer to it as 'fun', more like
'satisfying', in that when you do it well, you feel 'accomplished'.
it can be gruelling, and sometimes you need to exercise your 'out'
(you _do_ have one, don't you?). but i would say it is rewarding.
mho,
john
--
'i'd rather be flying'
john.p...@amd.com
Manuel Casiano
In message <5jeql5$9o...@musca.unm.edu> - sara...@unm.edu (Andrew M.
Sarangan) writes:
:>How much fun is it to fly IFR ? I mean, if you can't see anything
:>out your window, what difference does it make whether you are in an
:>airplane paying $60/hr or sitting in your living room in front of your tv ?
It makes a *big* difference, Andrew -- you can't just change channels on
the ice/thunderstorms/fog/etc... <g>
:>
:>I know that all-weather-flying is important from a transportation point of
:>view, but what does it offer from a purely fun point of view ? What
:>do all you IFR pilots think ?
Instrument flying is probably more a utility thing than pure "fun". But
having said that, I personally look forward to days with a few hundred
foot ceiling to go out and fly -- it's very satisfying to fly precise
instrument procedures. Maybe not "fun" the way flying over the Chesapeake
on a beautiful clear day, but fun and satisfying in it's own way.
Actually, while the most "fun" I ever had was either my first solo or
acrobatics, my first approach in actual with low clouds, breaking out near
minimums, with the runway right there ahead, was probably the second best
moment I've had in flying...
Instrument flying appeals to different senses of "fun".
Manny.
Michael Richmann
Andrew M. Sarangan wrote:
>
> Just a naiive question from a VFR pilot with low hours and no IFR
> experience (except for the hood time I did for my Private)..
>
> out your window, what difference does it make whether you are in an
> airplane paying $60/hr or sitting in your living room in front of your tv ?
>
> view, but what does it offer from a purely fun point of view ? What
> do all you IFR pilots think ?
Depends on how you look at it. Droning along for hours on end through
zero/zero weather can get monotonous but on the flip side of the coin,
some of the most scenic flying I've done has been on an IFR flight
plan, skimming the cloud tops or passing between them.
--
Mike
My opinions, not Argonne's...
Doug Fields
>out your window, what difference does it make whether you are in an
>airplane paying $60/hr or sitting in your living room in front of your tv ?
I'd rather take a trip, especially a long trip, when the WX is bad.
I've taken off in 600RVR and landed in 1800RVR. I've diverted because
the weather was so bad. I've shot NDBs to minimums and made loc BCs
that 1900 drivers get all twisted up on. When the clouds are white
puffy ones, I ask for diversions into them.
I fly IFR. The only VFR flight I've taken recently was due to the
comet- I wanted to take advantage of the sights. Of course, sight-seeing
trips excepted.
The only reason I'd hope for VFR is when I want to fly aerobatics or
the aforementioned sight-seeing. There's just no challenge or fun in
CAVU. Like the one guy said, it's like playing a video game where
game over is... Game over. Except I never plan to lose. :)
Cheers,
Doug
--
_ Doug http://www.311wc.com
/ | Fields The Mooney Home Page
/ |_______ &
/ N311WC Mooney Mailing List
Bob Noel
>Just a naiive question from a VFR pilot with low hours and no IFR
>experience (except for the hood time I did for my Private)..
>
>How much fun is it to fly IFR ? I mean, if you can't see anything
>out your window, what difference does it make whether you are in an
>airplane paying $60/hr or sitting in your living room in front of your tv ?
>
>I know that all-weather-flying is important from a transportation point of
>view, but what does it offer from a purely fun point of view ? What
>do all you IFR pilots think ?
Popping in/out of the tops of some (non-icing) clouds is real pretty.
Dodging them can be fun too (within the limits of your clearance).
Flying along at 6000' over an overcast layer (with nothing but blue sky
above) is a lot more fun than sitting on the couch...or scud running
down low. It is especially nice when you know you can safely
get back down....
Bob
(I think people can figure out how to email me...)
(replace ihatessppaamm with my name (rnoel) and spell highway in hw1)
Peter Henry
If you turn your TV to an unused channel and get the kids
to jump around on the couch next to you, you've got most
of the experience right there...
Seriously, it is really cool to go into clouds, and come
out exactly where you thought you'd be. It amazes me to
see a runway right where it should be. The best part
is flying the tops of clouds, and the "cloud canyons."
If you're in an area of the country where there's
not much traffic, you can deviate all around your plan
to fly in the canyons and tops of the clouds (with ATC
permission.) Even if you're on a straight line, often
your altitude will be in & out of the clouds, and yes,
it's fun. Out in the western states, Utah, Nevada, I've
gotten block altitudes and just cruised the cloud tops.
What's not fun is when the clouds hold something unexpected
and unforecast. Be very careful of ice, especially at the
cloud tops. Also, if you're in clouds for more than a
short time, have an autopilot. If the turbulence lets
you use it, it's much less mind numbing than the "unused
channe; tv experience." It'll keep you less stressed for
the approach, too.
Also, even if you're not in the clouds, the IFR to VFR on top
lets you fly over the undercast layers, and that can be
truly beautiful, as can flying between closely spaced layers.
P.
nightjar
In article <5jeql5$9o...@musca.unm.edu>, sara...@unm.edu (Andrew M.
Sarangan) wrote:
>How much fun is it to fly IFR ? I mean, if you can't see anything
>out your window, what difference does it make whether you are in an
>airplane paying $60/hr or sitting in your living room in front of your tv
?
>
The difference is the aircraft could be taking me from a dismal South of
England to a sun drenched South of France. The TV wouldn't be :-)
Colin Bignell
(Nightjar)
O.Det
Andrew M. Sarangan wrote:
>
> Just a naiive question from a VFR pilot with low hours and no IFR
> experience (except for the hood time I did for my Private)..
>
> How much fun is it to fly IFR ? I mean, if you can't see anything
> out your window, what difference does it make whether you are in an
> airplane paying $60/hr or sitting in your living room in front of your tv ?
>
> I know that all-weather-flying is important from a transportation point of
> view, but what does it offer from a purely fun point of view ? What
> do all you IFR pilots think ?
First of all: All flying is fun -- if you're not having fun, you
should
probably land at the nearest airport and hang-out until your attitude
improves...
That said, the fact is: IFR can be very fun -- in & out of those big,
puffy clouds (provide they're not too bumpy, which they usually are)
is breathtakingly beautiful.
It's also challenging. It's also just amazingly great to see
demonstrated
that the system works -- to arrive at a destination after hours in
the soup
and see the airport just open up before you, just like the
instruments said
it would.
It can also be a royal pain -- what I call "hard IFR", when it's
bouncy,
and there are many up & down drafts, and it's raining hard and you're
just
inches from the freezing level (wing-ice = death, more-or-less), and
there's
a full moon and the clouds break and fill frequently, so your eyes
can never
quite adjust to the cockpit...
... it's still fun -- but it's fun in a more difficult way. At least
to me,
it is. Others might think differently.
--
To reply to this e-mail, remove the spam-stopper from the return
address. I will not patronize any business which uses bulk
address-collection mechanisms or that sends unsolicited e-mail of any
type.
Yin Lung Shih
>out your window, what difference does it make whether you are in an
>airplane paying $60/hr or sitting in your living room in front of your tv ?
Flying IFR can be very "satisfying" - as distinct from "fun". It is
a task that requires you to use your head, visualize your situation,
and constantly update it. When I fly VFR, I sometimes find myself
getting bored after the first few minutes of scenery, because there's
relatively little to do. When I fly IFR, the time goes by amazingly
fast, because I'm always on the next 2 or 3 piloting or navigation
tasks. Also, I would imagine it is a lot more "fun" than flying
through scud and praying the ceiling doesn't get even lower. It's
also more fun to be home or at your destination than to be waiting out
IMC at an FBO.
From another viewpoint, the first time my kids, 7 and 11 at the time,
flew in the plane in real IMC we flew into clouds for about 20 minutes
then popped out. As soon as we came out, they started pointing to
another layer ahead and said "Let's do that again, that was fun!"
So maybe it is "fun" :-).
Yin Shih, N9YS/6, PP-ASEL-IA, M20K
yls...@alumni.caltech.edu
Mark Klebanoff
:>
:> ... it's still fun -- but it's fun in a more difficult way. At least
:>to me,
:> it is. Others might think differently.
I agree completely. I rarely go up just to fly VFR. If the weather is
nice, I'll get another pilot and we'll fly an IFR cross country to get
lunch- one guy flys out and the other acts as safety pilot, then we
switch places- and we never use the autopilot (even on those rare
days when it's working). If you enjoy a hobby that requires intense
concentration, instead of just sitting there, you can't beat IFR flying,
whether actual or simulated.
mar...@syst.oregonian.com
I agree that IFR is lot of fun, takes concentration and is very satisfying
flying experience. However, even if staring at (usualy beat up and old)
instrument panel instead of the beautiful scenery is not your idea of fun,
the fact is instrument rating gives you the freedom to go VFR to all kinds
of remote, visually interesting places in the first place and get back on
some sort of a reasonable schedule. This may not be a factor somewhere in
Arizona, but here in the Pacific Northwest, long cross country trips are
always a gamble and therefore often not undertaken by VFR-only pilots for
fear of having to wait out the weather for several days. Weather in
western Oregon is IMC more than 50% of the time, where the eastern part of
the state is usually solid VFR. This weather isn't usually "bad" either,
just not VFR - we get lots of precipitation for and startus cloud layers
that hang over the region for days. So the ability to file IFR and get to
VFR conditions or come back from a nice VFR cross country knwoing I can
file should an instrument approach be necessary is very comforting.
The standard disclaimer that IFR doesn't mean "all weather" (especially
for light aircraft) of course applies, thinking you can fly every time
just because you are IFR can get you into *much* more serious trouble than
the prudent VFR pilot would ever face.
Martin
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Steve Cassidy
Two weeks ago I was ferrying my Grumman Tiger from Detroit to Wash DC
area
to show it to a prospective buyer. Hard IFR......2000 foot ceiling, tops
to 10,000, and
a 40 knot headwind with a lot of bumps. After an hour of slogging along
through moderate
rainshowers, I was thinking: gee......this really isnt much fun !
Just then the #2 cylinder
swallowed an intake valve, causing a drastic loss of power and shaking
the whole plane
as if part of the prop had come off. Now my thinking changes to : "Oh
F##K !"
I declared an emergency.....and the controller at Toledo told me that
Metcalf airport
was five miles behind me. He did a great job of helping me get turned
around and
down.....and when I came out of the clouds, there were three very pretty
runways
to choose from. I managed to get the plane on the ground in one piece.
(By the way....the
guy in Virginia bought it anyway....he's putting a new engine on now)
Although THAT flight wasn't much "fun", I've had lots of other IFR
flights that were
very enjoyable. For me, the "fun" is in taking on the challenge of
navigation, weather,
flight planning, and all the other things you have to do to fly IFR.
And, it doesn't always
look like a bowl of milk outside the window. Many times you'll find
yourself in between
layers, or punching through cumulus, and seeing beautiful sights that no
vfr only pilot can
experience. (Assuming he's not violating cloud clearance regs)
With an IFR ticket, you'll get a LOT more utility out of your plane. No
more cancelled
flights due to that 900 foot overcast that's only a thousand feet thick.
Of course the real
trick is learning when NOT to go....IFR or not.
Basically, I felt like a much more complete pilot once I got my IFR
endorsement. Get your
instructor to take you up for some actual IFR next time it's
cloudy....you may just LIKE IT !
Cheers,
Steve Cassidy
Paul Schoberg
Fun is in the opinion of the beholder. For me, there is no better
flying than an IFR flight. I like IFR not only for the utility it
offers, but also because it challenges me in a way I like to be
challenged.
I like:
-The precision flying
-The interaction with ATC
-To see cloud tops and other cloud formations
-Seeing the airport pop into view right at minimums
-That not everyone can be a good IFR pilot but I can
-Dealing with challenging weather situations
-Navigating the intricate web of regulations (I know, I'm a
sick man...)
Those things are ways in which I happen to like to be challenged.
----
Paul Schoberg, ATP, CFII, MEI
Bakersfield, California USA
----
E-mail: scho...@lightspeed.net
Webpage: http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~schoberg
Home of the "world famous" IFR quizzes
John Lynker
An IFR rating:
- Increases your piloting skills very much
- Increases your departure/arrival options
- Gives you an occassional spectacular experience,
only found in the IFR environment
It hard, dangerous, very demanding, always unforgiving.
If you like a challenge and are willing to exercise the
discipline required to be safe, the $60 / hr. isn't even considered.
If you can't afford it, even if you want it badly, please,
consider not spending the money. You'll probably:
- get half way there then quit because you go broke
- get the rating and fail to maintain proficiency ...
the 6-6-6 rule is 6 Hours in 6 Months
w/ 6 approaches. 3 can be simulated,
3 must be in category and class.
The IFR skills are very volitle and require practice.
On the other hand, if that's what you want as an
accomplishment in your life...forget the money,
- Buy a Jeppesen Approach Plate set ($20)
- Talk to a couple local CFII, hire a good one,
and go for a flight in hard actual.
- Make sure you're up on your emergency procedures.
Have Fun!
John Lynker
Stan March
Paul Schoberg <scho...@lightspeed.net> wrote:
>
>Fun is in the opinion of the beholder. For me, there is no better
>flying than an IFR flight. I like IFR not only for the utility it
>offers, but also because it challenges me in a way I like to be
>challenged.
>
>I like:
> -The precision flying
> -The interaction with ATC
> -To see cloud tops and other cloud formations
> -Seeing the airport pop into view right at minimums
> -That not everyone can be a good IFR pilot but I can
> -Dealing with challenging weather situations
> -Navigating the intricate web of regulations (I know, I'm a
> sick man...)
>
>Those things are ways in which I happen to like to be challenged.
>
>----
>Paul Schoberg, ATP, CFII, MEI
>Bakersfield, California USA
>----
Well you left out a little. I flew back on Monday. General Area was
500/1. Rain. Moderate Rain. Moderate Turbulance. Tops in the FL 230's.
55 knots on the nose. Yeah! 55 knots! at 6000'. ILS 6 circle to 10. 17 G
28 at the surface.
winds from 120. Bitchy day. Two hours IMC in bouncy conditions. Start
over again.
Stan
Roy Smith
"John Lynker" <jly...@usa.net> writes:
>An IFR rating:
>- Increases your departure/arrival options
I almost never fly hard IFR. Still, the knowledge that, even though I don't
consider my skills up to serious IFR snuff, I can do an instrument letdown
through a 1000 foot layer, or cruise in the clouds, means I have the freedom
to make trips I wouldn't dream of taking were VFR my only option. I don't
take on low IFR, or serious bad weather, but I still get a lot out of the
rating.
--
Roy Smith <r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu>
New York University School of Medicine
Copyright 1997 Roy Smith
For-profit redistribution prohibited
Stan March
>
>Those things are ways in which I happen to like to be challenged.
>
>----
>Paul Schoberg, ATP, CFII, MEI
>Bakersfield, California USA
>----
>Webpage: http://userzweb.lightspeed.net/~schoberg
> Home of the "world famous" IFR quizzes
>
>
Last Monday was fun for me. I took off into lingering winter clouds. It
was raining. Got up to 8000 and the turbulance was continuous. Dropped
back to 6. Smoother. Winds were from the oposite direction at 55 knots.
Albany approach told me that the ride further south was better at 8.
Groundspeed increased 40 knots climbing back up to 8. Moderate turbulance.
NY was kind, and didn't dump me early into the mixmaster clouds.
Approach was 500 and 1, LLWS, 17 G 28 knots. +rain.
Another day commuting.
Stan
(logged 2 hours IMC, one approach). Oh well, 4 hours IMC to go and 5
approaches. oops, forgot the new currency... Well I did track, did a hold,
so I'm current. )
Doug Taylor
Well IFR Flight is real fun but I had a real *&#$-ed up experience tonight.
It was my leg to fly during a flight from Des Moines to Milwaukee in a
BE-1900D with about 14 passengers. There were level 3+ storms we had to
pick our way through the entire flight, it was bumpy as hell and it all
ended with "Mr. Toads Wild Ride" down the ILS 1L approach into Milwaukee.
The airport was reporting 1800RVR with 40 kt winds and moderate rain. So
somehow after all of the wind and the turbulence on the way down, I had a
very smooth landing.
Then, deplaning passengers, one guy starts yelling about some "alarm" he
heard and that he thought that we were unsafe and threatened to write the
company about our outrageous actions.
The alarm he heard was "Minimums, Minimums" from the GPWS/Radar Altimeter.
IFR flying is very rewarding but the general flying (passenger) public can
really kick you in the teeth.
Doug Taylor
Stan March <BGS...@prodigy.com> wrote in article
<5k902o$h...@newssvr01-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Jack Cullen
In that respect, IFR is really just like VFR: there are times when it
can be the most mystical, spiritualy refreshing experience imaginable
and then there are those times when it can be the most terrifying,
emotionally battering experience this side of Hell. Any "fun" you get
out of it comes strictly from the degree of your mastery of machine,
conditions and procedures. There is no substitute for overcoming a
challenge that requires you to use all your skill and ability and that
afterwards leaves you a little more knowledgable about the subject and
your limits.
Jack Cullen
ATP, CFI
West Chatham, Cape Cod, MA
--
Please reply to: jcu...@capecod.net
Stan March
"Doug Taylor" <tay...@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>Well IFR Flight is real fun but I had a real *&#$-ed up experience
tonight.
> It was my leg to fly during a flight from Des Moines to Milwaukee in a
>BE-1900D with about 14 passengers. There were level 3+ storms we had
to
>pick our way through the entire flight, it was bumpy as hell and it all
>ended with "Mr. Toads Wild Ride" down the ILS 1L approach into Milwaukee.
>The airport was reporting 1800RVR with 40 kt winds and moderate rain.
So
>somehow after all of the wind and the turbulence on the way down, I had
a
>very smooth landing.
>
That is one hell of an approach. The 1900 is a lot heavier than my 2900#
grossed out Arrow, but to shoot an ILS to 1800RVR with 40 knots is really
fine piloting!
>Then, deplaning passengers, one guy starts yelling about some "alarm"
he
>heard and that he thought that we were unsafe and threatened to write
the
>company about our outrageous actions.
Yeah. Heard on the news today how some airlines are thinking of starting
a computer list on all the assholes that make problems in the air and
then banning them from flying. GOOD IDEA!
>
>The alarm he heard was "Minimums, Minimums" from the GPWS/Radar
Altimeter.
>
>IFR flying is very rewarding but the general flying (passenger) public
can
>really kick you in the teeth.
>
>Doug Taylor
Again, good job,
Stan
Phil Wolpe
In article <5k902o$h...@newssvr01-int.news.prodigy.com>,
BGS...@prodigy.com (Stan March) writes:
>(logged 2 hours IMC, one approach). Oh well, 4 hours IMC to go and 5
>approaches. oops, forgot the new currency... Well I did track, did a
hold,
> so I'm current. )
>
>
Well, new currency isn't for another month or two, although I guess we can
get started now.
For me, *fun* is when I do something a bit daring, albiet safe, and I feel
the excitement in my gut. Last Sunday was my first ACTUAL time in almost
twenty years and it WAS fun for me. I had been under teh hood, or Foggles
for so long, I started to think that was all there was. The satisfaction
of tracking a center line in IMV for two hours, doing an ILS to 500 & 3/4,
doing read backs error-free, and generally being "in the system" was fun.
I got my PP (SEL) in 1971 and instrument rating in 1972. Flew an average
of 5 hours per week, all reasonable conditions, until a heart attack in
1980. That took away my only passion for a long time. Cutting the story
short, in 1995 I got my third class special issuance medical, took two
days to pass the BFR (I said it was a passion) and about two months to
pass an ICC. I'm certainly not as proficient as someone who does this for
a living, or can afford to fly as often as I used to. Still, with PC
simulator time, reading, and regular practice, I do fly IFR safely,
legally, and enjoyably.
Phil Wolpe
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend
- Inside of a dog. it's too dark to read. -G. Marx
Inno...@worldnet.att.net
Hang in there. Practice, practice, practice. Good or bad, most of us
aren't as proficient as the professsionals. But, we're there because we
have to be.
BAP
Phil Wolpe
In article <336E82...@worldnet.att.net>, Inno...@worldnet.att.net
writes:
> Hang in there. Practice, practice, practice. Good or bad, most
of us
>aren't as proficient as the professsionals. But, we're there because we
>have to be.
> BAP
>
>
Actually, I'm there becasue I want to be. I feel like a "better" pilot
when I am reaasonable proficient fully within the system, holding course
and altitude, shooting good approaches, and keeping a clear head most of
the time.
Phil
Stan March
>Phil Wolpe
>
>Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend
> - Inside of a dog. it's too dark to read. -G. Marx
Hey, that's great! Glad you got your medical back! I've got my plans in
place in case I have any medical problems. My girlfriend is taking
lessons!
It's been a very large part of my life, especially over the last few
years, and I wouldn't know how to not fly.
Hope you keep on flying!
Stan
Doug Taylor
> Uhm, just curious, where did you get your training for ATP or what ever
> certificate you have to be a commercial airline pilot.
Went to school at ERAU in Prescott, AZ. Instructed, Charter, Corporate now
a commuterdog based in MKE.
Doug
Tom Boucher
Doug Taylor <tay...@execpc.com> wrote in article
<01bc55ee$52641780$7743...@taylord.execpc.com>...
> Well IFR Flight is real fun but I had a real *&#$-ed up experience
tonight.
> It was my leg to fly during a flight from Des Moines to Milwaukee in a
> BE-1900D with about 14 passengers. There were level 3+ storms we had to
> pick our way through the entire flight, it was bumpy as hell and it all
Uhm, just curious, where did you get your training for ATP or what ever
certificate you have to be a commercial airline pilot.
Thanks
Tom
Inno...@worldnet.att.net
Phil Wolpe wrote:
>
> In article <336E82...@worldnet.att.net>, Inno...@worldnet.att.net
> writes:
>
> > Hang in there. Practice, practice, practice. Good or bad, most
> of us
> >aren't as proficient as the professsionals. But, we're there because we
> >have to be.
> > BAP
> >
> >
>
> Actually, I'm there becasue I want to be. I feel like a "better" pilot
> when I am reaasonable proficient fully within the system, holding course
> and altitude, shooting good approaches, and keeping a clear head most of
> the time.
>
> Phil
>
> Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend
> - Inside of a dog. it's too dark to read. -G. Marx