Best Approach Speed in a Skylane
caju...@aol.com
I may be coming in too hot. I was taught to use a 100 knot approach
speed and over the past 14 months of flying easy to moderate IFR it
seemed to work fine. However, in my first ILS to actual real world
near minimums (300' and 3/4 mile) it struck me how little time there is
to get aircraft to a nice landing speed and not float down the runway.
When I was getting my IFR rating I tried 10 degrees of flaps and 90
knots, but the aircraft seemed really mushy on the ILS so I went up to
100 knots and no flaps and it is a lot more stable. When I took my
checkride the DE said that he used a 100 knot approach speed in his
Skylane.
What speed/power settings do the rest of you Skylane drivers use for
shooting an ILS to minimums?
Gene Cartier
PP-SEL IA
Skylane N2011X
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Russ
ILS are 5000+ ft. I like how the airplane handles on the ILS with no flaps
so that's what I use. I also dont like to make configuration changes on the
approach, especially if it is low IFR. Once I am visual I will dump flaps in
as needed and the plane will usually slow down pretty quick.
<caju...@aol.com> wrote in message news:7sr36l$k4o$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Brett Rabe
> What speed/power settings do the rest of you Skylane drivers use for
> shooting an ILS to minimums?
FWIW, I use 95 knots in a C182, similar to
what you've been doing.
I would suggest two things.
1) Make sure you aren't trying to force
yourself to land on the numbers. That's
not the right aiming point out of the
ILS. You've got plenty of runway. Don't
take that as license to land 4000' down
a 5000' runway that's covered with ice. :)
2) Brush up a bit -- fly a bunch of ILS
approaches to minimums under the hood
until you get comfortable with the
transition.
Brett
--
Brett Rabe br...@uswest.net / 612.664.3078
Indistinguished Fellow U S WEST - Internet Services
Do not disturb. Already disturbed.
Bill Buck
use 90 kts and it still wants to float on out.
The adjustment to visual is the key and on an ILS to minimums you have the
least time of all approaches to adjust. I agree with the concept of
practice. I take it you are from SE La. We had good IFR morning on
Monday, I couldnt get out in it.
---Bill Buck, PP-SEL, IA
caju...@aol.com wrote:
> After shooting an approach close to minimums yesteday I'm wondering if
> I may be coming in too hot. I was taught to use a 100 knot approach
> speed and over the past 14 months of flying easy to moderate IFR it
> seemed to work fine. However, in my first ILS to actual real world
> near minimums (300' and 3/4 mile) it struck me how little time there is
> to get aircraft to a nice landing speed and not float down the runway.
>
> When I was getting my IFR rating I tried 10 degrees of flaps and 90
> knots, but the aircraft seemed really mushy on the ILS so I went up to
> 100 knots and no flaps and it is a lot more stable. When I took my
> checkride the DE said that he used a 100 knot approach speed in his
> Skylane.
>
> What speed/power settings do the rest of you Skylane drivers use for
> shooting an ILS to minimums?
>
David Scott
>What speed/power settings do the rest of you Skylane drivers use for
>shooting an ILS to minimums?
My instructor taught me 90 kts and 10 degrees of flaps. In my '72
Skylane, that translates to about 100 MPH, which is what I actually
use (since my ASI shows MPH).
However, lately I've been skipping the flaps but still riding at 100
MPH (about 11-1/2" MP). I agree that no flaps seems to make for a
smoother ride. I also found my approaches were much more stable when
I (dare I say it?) started pitching for the GS and power for airspeed
(exactly the opposite of what my instructor taught). Not sure why it
works better but it keeps the plane much more stable, particularly at
the end when you're riding it all the way down to DH.
- David Scott
C182 - N20870
Raj Seth
I am a mooney driver, and fly my ILSs at 90 MPH, i.e. 78 Knots. The 90 Kts
published as Class A speed is a maximum, not a recommended speed. Why not
try to use 1.3 x Stall speed, as all the conventional wisdom seems to
recommend (allowances for weather/gusts etc additional)? May be a lot more
valuable in actual non-precision approaches too. Not really fair to expect
to fly all your practice, IFR in VMC approaches at a howling 100kts, and
expect to do a scud VOR approach to mins at 500' at 75 KTS. The plane will
totally feel new.
If I cross the fence at 100 Kts in my 201, I would land in the next county !
Being based in NY airspace, I do have to sometimes scream down the approach
to be nice to a Challenger, or whatever, that may be behind me, so I
practice that regularly too. But as a rule, if it is IMC, I WILL slow down
to < 100 mph by 800 AGL I dont care if the SR-71 is on my ass, and then
continuously reduce power to target over the numbers at 80 mph, and happily
touchdone in the zone (1000' down), The controller may not be ecstatic
about this, but I would rather be safe, fly the approach another time etc.
It has been my experience that if it is IMC, they wont turn you off the
approach to let someone else fly thru anyway. So, be courteous, but firm in
your safety practices.
Matthew Whiting
>
> Sometimes I have a hard time putting the 172 on the ground from an ILS. I
> use 90 kts and it still wants to float on out.
> The adjustment to visual is the key and on an ILS to minimums you have the
> least time of all approaches to adjust. I agree with the concept of
> practice. I take it you are from SE La. We had good IFR morning on
> Monday, I couldnt get out in it.
>
> ---Bill Buck, PP-SEL, IA
>
> caju...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > After shooting an approach close to minimums yesteday I'm wondering if
> > I may be coming in too hot. I was taught to use a 100 knot approach
> > speed and over the past 14 months of flying easy to moderate IFR it
> > seemed to work fine. However, in my first ILS to actual real world
> > near minimums (300' and 3/4 mile) it struck me how little time there is
> > to get aircraft to a nice landing speed and not float down the runway.
> >
> > When I was getting my IFR rating I tried 10 degrees of flaps and 90
> > knots, but the aircraft seemed really mushy on the ILS so I went up to
> > 100 knots and no flaps and it is a lot more stable. When I took my
> > checkride the DE said that he used a 100 knot approach speed in his
> > Skylane.
> >
> > shooting an ILS to minimums?
> >
> > PP-SEL IA
> > Skylane N2011X
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
100 knots in a Skylane is crazy unless you have a jet chewing at your
tail feathers. 90 is more than enough. At 90 knots down to 200', I
have no problem dropping 40 degrees of flaps (I have a '67) and slowing
to 70 knots across the threshold and then making a "normal" full-stall
landing.
Matt
Matthew Whiting
> >shooting an ILS to minimums?
>
> Skylane, that translates to about 100 MPH, which is what I actually
> use (since my ASI shows MPH).
>
> However, lately I've been skipping the flaps but still riding at 100
> MPH (about 11-1/2" MP). I agree that no flaps seems to make for a
> smoother ride. I also found my approaches were much more stable when
> I (dare I say it?) started pitching for the GS and power for airspeed
> (exactly the opposite of what my instructor taught). Not sure why it
> works better but it keeps the plane much more stable, particularly at
> the end when you're riding it all the way down to DH.
Well, if it works for you, far be it from me to argue with you.
However, if you get the airplane trimmed properly for 90 knots, you can
use power to maintain the glideslope and leave the pitch alone and the
airspeed will remain very close to constant. There is some airspeed
transient with power changes, but if you are changing more than 1" MP at
a time, something is wrong. Actually, you may find that your
"stability" will improve if you remove your hand from the yoke and use
the rudder for minor heading adjustments and use the throttle for
glideslope control! The pilot is usually the greatest source of
instability! Obviously, this isn't true in significant turbulence, but
give it a try on your next smooth air ILS. You may be surprised that
you can fly virtually to the runway this way with a high degree of
precision.
All the folks that want to jump on me about making skidding turns ...
have at it. For a 1-3 degree heading change, it is pretty near
impossible to make a coordinated turn.
Matt
Tom Elam
to caju...@aol.com
>
>What speed/power settings do the rest of you Skylane drivers use for
>shooting an ILS to minimums?
>
In a 182RG I use 10 degrees of flaps and 90 knots for all approaches. It's a
good speed that gives me a solid feel down the glideslope, and besides that the
speed is published on the charts too. At the MM I pull off 2 inches and cross
the runway end at 80.
---------------------------------------------
Tom Elam
The universe is not only stranger than we imagine,
it is stranger than we CAN imagine.
The family homepage is at:
http://members.iquest.net/~telam/default.htm
Brett Rabe
> 100 knots in a Skylane is crazy unless you have a jet chewing at your
> tail feathers.
Why is it crazy? I use 95 kts and have
not experienced any difficulty with that.
Brett
--
Brett Rabe br...@uswest.net / 612.664.3078
Bookworm U S WEST - Internet Services
He hadn't a single redeeming vice. -- Oscar Wilde
Matthew Whiting
>
> Matthew Whiting wrote:
>
> > 100 knots in a Skylane is crazy unless you have a jet chewing at your
> > tail feathers.
>
> Why is it crazy? I use 95 kts and have
> not experienced any difficulty with that.
Crazy in the sense of completely unnecessary. I fly at 90 only because
that is an entry in the MAP time chart and saves having to do a lot of
mental gymnastics - other than some adjustment for the headwind. 90
provides plenty of margin above the stall, yet makes slowing to landing
speed fairly easy. However, I'd probably use 80 knots if that was a
time chart entry.
Matt
Bob Noel
> Matthew Whiting wrote:
>
> > 100 knots in a Skylane is crazy unless you have a jet chewing at your
> > tail feathers.
>
> Why is it crazy? I use 95 kts and have
> not experienced any difficulty with that.
I even do that in my cherokee 140. I find it kind of neat
to just leave the cruise power setting in on approach.
It also lowers the workload a little bit.
--
Bob
(I think people can figure out how to email me...)
(replace ihatessppaamm with my name (rnoel) and hw1 with mediaone)
Andrew Boyd
> not float down the runway [after a 100K ils]
Well, you've got a choice:
1) leave the flaps up when you become visual at DH, and sure enough,
you're gonna chew up a lot of runway [usually not a problem with long
runways serviced by ILS's
2) when you get a few more hours, and more comfortable with the
aircraft, you can try dumping [40 deg is what I use] flaps when
you see the numbers.
Needless to say, for both of the above, be sure that the
throttle is all the way back, and feel free to sideslip, too.
Anything you can do to dissipate energy, is the point.
(2) is a bit ropey until you get used to it, but then again, so
is a night circling approach from a complicated, unfamiliar
non-precision approach [yuck].
The transition from IFR flying to VFR scud running [after the
IFR approach has completed] is not something that's covered very
well in instrument training.
--
ab...@igs.net ATP
Unknown
>caju...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> not float down the runway [after a 100K ils]
>
>Well, you've got a choice:
>
>1) leave the flaps up when you become visual at DH, and sure enough,
>you're gonna chew up a lot of runway [usually not a problem with long
>runways serviced by ILS's
I don't know what you are flying, but no GA light aircraft I have
flown in (including Skylanes) will make it much past the fixed
distance marker if you merely pull power at DH and glide to the runway
with no flaps. Add another 800 feet to roll to a stop and you have
used less than 2000 feet.
John Stephens
>On Sat, 02 Oct 1999 10:44:40 -0400, Andrew Boyd <ab...@igs.net> wrote:
>>
>>Well, you've got a choice:
>>
>>1) leave the flaps up when you become visual at DH, and sure enough,
>>you're gonna chew up a lot of runway [usually not a problem with long
>>runways serviced by ILS's
>>
>I don't know what you are flying, but no GA light aircraft I have
>flown in (including Skylanes) will make it much past the fixed
>distance marker if you merely pull power at DH and glide to the runway
>with no flaps. Add another 800 feet to roll to a stop and you have
>used less than 2000 feet.
>>
You seem to be assuming that you are flying at/near best-glide speed at DH.
If you are at the more normal 90 kts, then you should have NO trouble
"making" the runway if power is cut to idle. If you are already down to
60-70 kts at DH, then some power might be needed to make it.
Usually, the problem is getting the plane slowed down, rather than having to
stretch the glide from DH. Even in a "high drag" plane like a Cessna!
I'm with Andrew on this one!!!
--
John Stephens (remove spaces for legal email address)
s t e p h e n s @ p o b o x . c o m
Unknown
Am I missing something???
I am saying that if you arrive at DH at 90 knots and pull the power,
you will glide to just about the fixed distance marker and arrive at
just about touch down speed and will use up less than 2000 feet total
to come to a full stop, with light to moderate braking. Therefore
you do not need flaps.
With all due respect, I do not know what point you are trying to make.
John Stephens
>Am I missing something???
>
>I am saying that if you arrive at DH at 90 knots and pull the power,
>you will glide to just about the fixed distance marker and arrive at
>just about touch down speed and will use up less than 2000 feet total
>to come to a full stop, with light to moderate braking. Therefore
>you do not need flaps.
>
>With all due respect, I do not know what point you are trying to make.
Nope, you're not missing much -- i must have been half asleep when i read
your post. I "translated " fixed distance marker" as "inner marker" which
would be just short of the threshold (if you can ever find one :-) ).
However, dumping full flaps at 90 kias in a skyhawk still lets you get well
down the runway before touchdown. (yes, I know you have to let it slow to 85
before going past 20 degrees)
Chuck Forsberg
>>you will glide to just about the fixed distance marker and arrive at
>>just about touch down speed and will use up less than 2000 feet total
>>to come to a full stop, with light to moderate braking. Therefore
>>you do not need flaps.
Are we assuming a 200' DH???
And what is "fixed distance marker"?
--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX PP-ASEL/HP Skylane N2469R c...@omen.COM
Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software www.omen.com
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, RZ, SZ, Pro-YAM, ZCOMM, GSZ, and DSZ
TeleGodzilla BBS: 503-617-1698 FTP: ftp.cs.pdx.edu pub/zmodem
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Newps
Chuck Forsberg wrote:
>
> >>I am saying that if you arrive at DH at 90 knots and pull the power,
> >>you will glide to just about the fixed distance marker and arrive at
> >>just about touch down speed and will use up less than 2000 feet total
> >>to come to a full stop, with light to moderate braking. Therefore
> >>you do not need flaps.
>
> Are we assuming a 200' DH???
>
> And what is "fixed distance marker"?
That's the 1000' marks on the runway where the glideslope is leading
you down to.
Unknown
wrote:
>>>I am saying that if you arrive at DH at 90 knots and pull the power,
>>>you will glide to just about the fixed distance marker and arrive at
>>>just about touch down speed and will use up less than 2000 feet total
>>>to come to a full stop, with light to moderate braking. Therefore
>>>you do not need flaps.
>
>Are we assuming a 200' DH???
Yes
>
>And what is "fixed distance marker"?
The fixed distance marker (maybe it's 'fixed distance markings') is,
if I am not mistaken, 1000 feet down the runway, where the glideslope
meets the ground.
Howard T. Nelson
Howard
C182P
Fisch
<htne...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>90K with 10 degree flaps.
>
>Howard
>C182P
What power settings do you typically use? I'm trying to find a good M.P.
/RPM match that wouldn't cool my engine off too much in cold actual
conditions.
Thanks,
Fisch