Most Challenging Instrument Approaches in Western US?
Angus Davis
instrument approaches in the Western US. Perhaps this not the best way
to phrase the question, because I am planning a trip with a fellow
instrument student and our instructor around the Western US this winter,
similar to those organized by outfits such as IFR West. So, I am
looking for challenging approaches that will be a good learning
opportunity for the instrument student. I fly in the Bay Area, so I'm
no stranger to ATC. We will probably do the trip in an all-glass SR-20,
so no ADF. I consider "Western US" to be anything where radio stations
begin with a "K" Thanks in advance for your suggestions,
-angus
Mike Rapoport
Mike
MU-2
"Angus Davis" <an...@tellme.com> wrote in message
news:3f591a3e$1...@news.meer.net...
Stan Gosnell
news:lW86b.645$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> Aspen, CO in real IMC..
That's the first one that comes to my mind, for sure. Mess up
on that one & you won't do it again.
--
Regards,
Stan
Ray Andraka
Mike Rapoport wrote:
--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email r...@andraka.com
http://www.andraka.com
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Dave S
Beat the Widowmaker". It refers to the ILS 21. Looks complicated and
busy, but from what I've heard, Aspen takes the cake with regards to
danger factor.
Dave
Tom S.
"Mike Rapoport" <rapopor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:lW86b.645$Yt....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Aspen, CO in real IMC..
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
They still have that microwave landing system there?
Phil Verghese
fly the full procedure starting at the FFU IAF. I haven't flown it in real
life, but it was a handful in a simulator.
Phil
www.pfactor.com
Lynne Miller
We have our instrument rating. There comes a time when approaches are
approaches. Some are higher workload than others, but none are
"challenging."
Yes, I've been to Aspen. I've been to Hong Kong. I've been to Taipei.
Been there done that, and it's just a normal approach with some
special issues.
Lynne
Angus Davis <an...@tellme.com> wrote in message news:<3f591a3e$1...@news.meer.net>...
Mick Ruthven
Monterey LOC DME 28L approach. It has several step downs and a some
important terrain issues. This is an approach where the safety
pilot/instructor should have the pilot remove the hood a couple of times to
see the consequences of making a mistake.
1. If you're getting vectors to final, just before interception take a look
at the terrain ahead to see where you'd be going if you didn't receive a
clearance to intercept and just kept flying through the locallizer on the
vector heading.
2. As you reach the minimum altitude for each stopdown, take a look outside
to your left. I'll bet you've never seen terrain and houses so close before.
After seeing where the terrain is on final, I added 500' to the minimum
step-down altitudes for this approach...
Mick Ruthven
"Angus Davis" <an...@tellme.com> wrote in message
news:3f591a3e$1...@news.meer.net...
Angus Davis
> Good question, but there are no challenging approaches in the WORLD.
> We have our instrument rating. There comes a time when approaches are
> approaches. Some are higher workload than others, but none are
> "challenging."
>
> Yes, I've been to Aspen. I've been to Hong Kong. I've been to Taipei.
> Been there done that, and it's just a normal approach with some
> special issues.
Lynne,
I am glad to hear your opinion that challenging instrument approaches do
not exist. Given your extensive experience, perhaps you could expand on
your reply by noting those approaches you've flown over the years that
would yield the greatest learning opportunity for instrument students.
Thanks,
-angus
John Harper
up".
That's a fair definition but if you go by difficulty of execution then the
NDB
to Siskiyou County, CA, (SIY iirc) looks like fun. I've never flown it but
it involves
a substantial dogleg at the NDB (particularly good if there's a crosswind)
as well as a death-defying descent rate on final.
John
"Angus Davis" <an...@tellme.com> wrote in message
news:3f591a3e$1...@news.meer.net...
hnelson
> Lynne Miller wrote:
>
> > Good question, but there are no challenging approaches in the WORLD.
> > We have our instrument rating. There comes a time when approaches are
> > approaches. Some are higher workload than others, but none are
> > "challenging."
> >
> > Yes, I've been to Aspen. I've been to Hong Kong. I've been to Taipei.
> > Been there done that, and it's just a normal approach with some
> > special issues.
Not to put words in the mouth of the original poster but I took it to mean
"least forgiving of error when making the approach for the first time
without an instrument rated copilot and programmed flight director".
For Lance Armstrong there are no challenging bike rides only those with
higher workload.
Howard
Lou Ramsay
>
> The answers so far seem to define challenging as "greatest risk if you mess
> up".
> That's a fair definition but if you go by difficulty of execution then the
> NDB
> to Siskiyou County, CA, (SIY iirc) looks like fun. I've never flown it but
> it involves
> a substantial dogleg at the NDB (particularly good if there's a crosswind)
> as well as a death-defying descent rate on final.
Juneau, Alaska is no "bowl of peaches" either.
A fellow controller was riding jumpseat on a 727 a
number of years ago on a flight from Anchorage to
Seattle with intermediate stop at Juneau. The pilot
was enthused that this would be his first flight into
Juneau with VFR conditions.
There is a rather large dogleg to turn final and a
hill just slides under as you are, or just before,
making the dogleg. The Captain said that was the LAST
time he wanted to make the approach to Juneau in VFR
conditions.
Lou.
Craig Prouse
> Yes, I've been to Aspen. I've been to Hong Kong. I've been to Taipei.
> Been there done that, and it's just a normal approach with some
> special issues.
Compulsive liar.
Brad Z
approach minimums are lower than the LDA?
"Lou Ramsay" <l.a...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3F5A5DA5...@ix.netcom.com...
Mike Rapoport
"Brad Z" <bra...@com.attbi> wrote in message
news:SOw6b.378145$Ho3.57420@sccrnsc03...
> Regarding Juneau (JNU) approaches: Can anyone venture to guess why the NDB
> approach minimums are lower than the LDA?
>
I don't know but it is hard to see the airport from the missed approach
point even if visibility is unrestricted.
Mike
MU-2
Michelle P
OR:
North Bend, NDB 4 in actual!
CO:
Aspen, VOR DME-C slam dunk!
Telluride, VOR-DME-A box canyon!
Pueblo, NDB 8L from Stano int 14000+ to 7000 in a few short miles
CA:
Lompoc, NDB-B complicated
San Luis Obisbo, LOC 11 complicated
AZ:
Grand Canyon, ILS DME 3 The pressure to finish is high from the Tour operators!
WY:
Jackson Hole, ILS 18 hard to concentrate due to the beautiful scenery
MT:
Missoula, Any approach!
Some of these may no longer be in service since it has been a few years since I flew them....
Michelle
Angus Davis wrote:
I am curious to hear this group's thoughts on the most challenging instrument approaches in the Western US. Perhaps this not the best way to phrase the question, because I am planning a trip with a fellow instrument student and our instructor around the Western US this winter, similar to those organized by outfits such as IFR West. So, I am looking for challenging approaches that will be a good learning opportunity for the instrument student. I fly in the Bay Area, so I'm no stranger to ATC. We will probably do the trip in an all-glass SR-20, so no ADF. I consider "Western US" to be anything where radio stations begin with a "K" Thanks in advance for your suggestions,
-angus
Michelle P CP-ASMEL-IA, and AMT-A&P
"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)
Volunteer Pilot, AirLifeLine
Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity
Stan Gosnell
At DWH, Houston Hooks, the NDB minimums are lower than the
localizer, to the same runway. I've never understood that one,
and it has been that way for a long, long time. Otherwise the
approaches are normal, and there is nothing difficult about
seeing the airport.
--
Regards,
Stan
papenfus...@juneaudotmedotvt.edu
got to be close to the worst conditions possible for flying. It's often
described as "landing in a fishbowl," since there's water on all sides,
and 3500' mountains within 5-10 miles on 3 sides, and within 20 miles on
the 4th side. I wasn't into private flying at the time, but did enough
missed approaches as a passenger in 737's to know it was a bitch. The
weather can move in there so even the commercial guys won't fly in for a
week or more.
Lou Ramsay <l.a...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: Juneau, Alaska is no "bowl of peaches" either.
<snip>
: hill just slides under as you are, or just before,
: making the dogleg.
They call it "Engineer's cutoff" in Juneau, since they cut the trees off
the top of the hill to help forward visibility on short final. That's
how close the whole approach is.
-Cory
--
*************************************************************************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
*************************************************************************
J. Hansen
the same as the MDA (i.e., the plan view was flat, perhaps due to rising
terrain). Unfortunately I can not remember which approach this was. Does
anyone know which approach I am talking about. I am trying to find it again.
I think it was in MT or WY but I am not sure.
Peter R.
Awhile back I discovered this NDB/DME or GPS-A approach at Hailey/Friedman
Memorial (KSUN), UT.
Not sure if it the one to which you refer but it does have similar
features:
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/NorthWest/SUN_nd_gA.pdf
--
Peter
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Peter R.
> Awhile back I discovered this NDB/DME or GPS-A approach at Hailey/Friedman
> Memorial (KSUN), UT.
Sorry, this airport is in Idaho, not Utah.
Ron Natalie
"Peter R." <prgr...@twcny.rrX.com> wrote in message news:MPG.19d106968fc7815c989800@text-
> Not sure if it the one to which you refer but it does have similar
> features:
>
> http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/NorthWest/SUN_nd_gA.pdf
>
John R. Copeland
---JRC---
"Ron Natalie" <r...@sensor.com> wrote in message news:3f673d40$0$51855$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
J. Hansen
> J. Hansen (jha...@stargate.net) wrote:
>
> > I remember once seeing an approach in which the altitude for the FAF was
> > the same as the MDA (i.e., the plan view was flat, perhaps due to rising
> > terrain). Unfortunately I can not remember which approach this was. Does
> > anyone know which approach I am talking about. I am trying to find it again.
> > I think it was in MT or WY but I am not sure.
>
> Awhile back I discovered this NDB/DME or GPS-A approach at Hailey/Friedman
> Memorial (KSUN), UT.
>
> Not sure if it the one to which you refer but it does have similar
> features:
>
> http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/NorthWest/SUN_nd_gA.pdf
Thanks. I'm not sure if this is the same one I saw, but this one is
pretty good too.
Jeff
Everett M. Greene
> Peter R. <prgr...@twcny.rrX.com> wrote
> > J. Hansen (jha...@stargate.net) wrote:
> >
> > > I remember once seeing an approach in which the altitude for the FAF was
> > > the same as the MDA (i.e., the plan view was flat, perhaps due to rising
> > > terrain). Unfortunately I can not remember which approach this was. Does
> > > anyone know which approach I am talking about. I am trying to find it again.
> > > I think it was in MT or WY but I am not sure.
> >
> > Awhile back I discovered this NDB/DME or GPS-A approach at Hailey/Friedman
> > Memorial (KSUN), UT.
> >
> > Not sure if it the one to which you refer but it does have similar
> > features:
> >
> > http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/NorthWest/SUN_nd_gA.pdf
>
> Thanks. I'm not sure if this is the same one I saw, but this one is
> pretty good too.
I recall that the VOR approach to Jefferson County Airport in the
Denver area has minimums higher than VFR minimums. Probably has
something to do with the rocks to the west of the airport...
Peter Gibbons
> Good question, but there are no challenging approaches in the WORLD.
> We have our instrument rating. There comes a time when approaches are
> approaches. Some are higher workload than others, but none are
> "challenging."
>
> Yes, I've been to Aspen. I've been to Hong Kong. I've been to Taipei.
> Been there done that, and it's just a normal approach with some
> special issues.
>
> Lynne
>
Lynne - What exactly are your credentials (hours/ratings/etc)?
Robert Moore
>> (Lynne Miller) wrote
>> Yes, I've been to Aspen. I've been to Hong Kong. I've been to
>> Taipei. Been there done that, and it's just a normal approach
>> with some special issues.
> Lynne - What exactly are your credentials (hours/ratings/etc)?
Everything.......:-) Copied from Google for your amusement.
From: Lynne Miller (mill...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Throw out that checklist
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Date: 2003-06-19 11:56:52 PST
How many of you actually use a checklist?
The method I use when I fly (Cessna Citation VII) is a flow check.
If
you have a good flowcheck for the various phases of flight, I feel
a
checklist is not necessary. I am curious what others do?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lynne Miller (mill...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Almost ready to tattoo
Newsgroups: rec.arts.bodyart
Date: 2002-03-10 19:35:26 PST
Hello .. I am 21 years old and have thought about tattoos (and been
fascinated by them) since I was 13. I am finally ready to get one,
and
I have some ideas of the "topic" of the tattoo I want, but no idea
what it is I want. I figure I'll wait six months or so once I get
the
exact picture I want to be sure that is what I want on me forever.
Any
advice for me on how to proceed?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lynne Miller (mill...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Palo Alto 3, Reid Hillview 0
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.ifr
Date: 2001-08-08 09:13:21 PST
I am not going to argue with you. But, I can just tell you this. I
bought N550B (the airplane) from Jim Lafferty last year so I could
use the tail number on my airplane. (550-0941)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lynne Miller (mill...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Got my wings
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Date: 2001-05-29 08:25:51 PST
I passed my PVT checkride last night!!! Pretty much the "standard"
ride. 1.5 oral, 1.2 flight time. I did the best I'd ever done.
I got a tattoo of wings on my ankle last night to celebrate. :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lynne Miller (mill...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: AST-300
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.ifr
Date: 2003-08-20 07:32:43 PST
Yes, I am familiar with the PTS.
During my ATP checkride, I used a checklist after my flowcheck. I
use
a checklist during 299 rides, etc. after the flowcheck but in the
real
world, I don't use a checklist.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Gibbons
> (Peter Gibbons) wrote
>
> >> (Lynne Miller) wrote
> >> Yes, I've been to Aspen. I've been to Hong Kong. I've been to
> >> Taipei. Been there done that, and it's just a normal approach
> >> with some special issues.
>
> > Lynne - What exactly are your credentials (hours/ratings/etc)?
>
> Everything.......:-) Copied from Google for your amusement.
>
>
Thanks Robert - I actually found alot of that myself. Just wanted to
see if he'd set himself up again :)
Robert M. Gary
http://www.avweb.com/newspics/181561ksc_mls_33_large.jpg
Angus Davis <an...@tellme.com> wrote in message news:<3f591a3e$1...@news.meer.net>...
Rich Ahrens
> Having live in Juneau for 6 years in a former life, I can say it's
> got to be close to the worst conditions possible for flying. It's often
> described as "landing in a fishbowl," since there's water on all sides,
> and 3500' mountains within 5-10 miles on 3 sides, and within 20 miles on
> the 4th side. I wasn't into private flying at the time, but did enough
> missed approaches as a passenger in 737's to know it was a bitch. The
> weather can move in there so even the commercial guys won't fly in for a
> week or more.
> They call it "Engineer's cutoff" in Juneau, since they cut the trees off
> the top of the hill to help forward visibility on short final. That's
> how close the whole approach is.
As an illustration of Cory's description, here's a photo of the general
vicinity from several miles out on the extended centerline of RWY 8.
Engineer's Cutoff is in the foreground:
http://www.visi.com/~rma/jnu_approach/Image2.jpg
The actual approach course is off to the right in that photo, resulting in
the previously mentioned dogleg to final. Here's a shot pretty much on the
course, just before making that turn. Actually, we were a little to the
left and low. The resolution is poor, but you might be able to make out the
offset VASI (red on red in this shot...). It's more or less aligned with
the divided highway in distance.
http://www.visi.com/~rma/jnu_approach/Image4.jpg
Here's what short final looks like:
http://www.visi.com/~rma/jnu_approach/Image6.jpg
Nice prospect for a missed, huh?
Rich Ahrens
Ketchikan, AK, ILS/DME-1 RWY 11 is almost as interesting. No turns
permitted past 8 DME inbound. The MAP is 2.7 miles from the threshold.
Notes include "CAUTION: Do not permit full scale CDI deflection. Rising
terrain both sides of final approach. Strong winds may cause severe
turbulence. During VMC watch for opposing traffic on localizer course." And
"Any go-around commenced after passing the missed approach point will not
provide standard obstruction clearance."
Aloft
first place! :-)
"Robert M. Gary" <rm...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:4252c371.03091...@posting.google.com...