IFR flight plan is required
John Clonts
When is an IFR flight plan required?
A) In Class E airspace when IMC exists or in Class A airspace.
B) When less than VFR conditions exist in either Class E or Class G
airspace and in Class A airspace.
C) In all Class E airspace when conditions are below VFR, in Class A
airspace, and in defense zone airspace
Webexams.com says the answer is (A). I can buy that because I can eliminate
the other two, but I'm still puzzled as to the implications for B, C, and D
airspace. Does this hinge around Special VFR? I.e. the statement "An IFR
flight plan is always required in controlled airspace when IMC exists" is
false because SVFR is available in B, C, and D airspace?
Thanks for any help,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
Max T, CFI
an IFR flight plan is required. It just asks you to discriminate between some
examples where one is required, and where it's not required. For example
if visibility is less than 1 mile, you still need an IFR clearance in Class B,C and D--
special VFR wouldn't help you in that situation.
Max T, CFII
John Clonts <jcl...@hot.rr.com> wrote in message news:aa1m5...@enews1.newsguy.com...
Robert Moore
> Actual FAA question:
>
> When is an IFR flight plan required?
> A) In Class E airspace when IMC exists or in Class A airspace.
> B) When less than VFR conditions exist in either Class E or Class G
> airspace and in Class A airspace.
> C) In all Class E airspace when conditions are below VFR, in Class
> A airspace, and in defense zone airspace
"Class G" makes answer B) incorrect.
"ADIZ" makes answer C) incorrect
Bob Moore
ATP ASMEL
CFI ASE-IA
Roy Smith, CFI
This is a typical stupid FAA test question. A is the right answer only
because it's the least wrong.
While it is true that you need to be IFR in Class E in IMC, or Class A
anytime, you also need to be IFR under a whole lot of other conditions
(basicly, below VFR in B, C, or D airspace, ignoring for the moment the
possibility of SVFR). So, it's not technically wrong, but it sure is
incomplete and misleading.
C is wrong because there is no such thing as "defense zone airspace". The
FAA considers that kind of answer a "distractor". I consider it a trick
question. The goal of this question is to ascertain if you understand the
requirements for filing an IFR flight plan. The question as presented
really just tests to see how well you can puzzle your way out of trick
questions, which is only a useful skill if you're a contestant on a TV game
show.
--
Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA
les_I...@waitforit.com
wrote:
>"John Clonts" <jcl...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
>> When is an IFR flight plan required?
>> A) In Class E airspace when IMC exists or in Class A airspace.
>> B) When less than VFR conditions exist in either Class E or Class G
>> airspace and in Class A airspace.
>> C) In all Class E airspace when conditions are below VFR, in Class A
>> airspace, and in defense zone airspace
>>
>> Webexams.com says the answer is (A). I can buy that because I can eliminate
>> the other two, but I'm still puzzled as to the implications for B, C, and D
>> airspace. Does this hinge around Special VFR? I.e. the statement "An IFR
>> flight plan is always required in controlled airspace when IMC exists" is
>> false because SVFR is available in B, C, and D airspace?
>
>This is a typical stupid FAA test question. A is the right answer only
>because it's the least wrong.
>
>While it is true that you need to be IFR in Class E in IMC, or Class A
>anytime, you also need to be IFR under a whole lot of other conditions
>(basicly, below VFR in B, C, or D airspace, ignoring for the moment the
>possibility of SVFR). So, it's not technically wrong, but it sure is
>incomplete and misleading.
B is clearly wrong. IFR flight plans are not required in Class G.
C is also clearly worng,
What's misleading??
Julian Scarfe
>>> A) In Class E airspace when IMC exists or in Class A airspace.
On 23/4/02 12:29, in article 3cc54472...@netnews.att.net,
"les_I...@waitforit.com" <les_I...@waitforit.com> wrote:
> B is clearly wrong. IFR flight plans are not required in Class G.
>
> C is also clearly worng,
>
> What's misleading??
It ignores special VFR, which allows you to be in IMC without a flight plan.
Julian Scarfe
william adams
penetrating or operating in the ADIZ.
les_I...@waitforit.com
Oh, come on.
It gives three choices and asks for the correct answer from among the
three.
The fact that it might ignore 20 other possibilities is irrelevant.
Ryan Ferguson
> The fact that it might ignore 20 other possibilities is irrelevant.
... and the FAA agrees with you! And we get silly questions like these which
serve no purpose.
-Ryan
les_I...@waitforit.com
wrote:
The issue was whether the existence of other possibilities was
relevant to the answer choices, and had nothing at all to do with
whether the question was silly or served any useful purpose, (which
could undoubtedly support another whole thread.)
I would be the first to agree with you that many of the questions on
the written serve no useful purpose, while meaningful areas are
totally overlooked.
The calculation of cross-country ETE to the hearest minute or so is
an example of the former, and the fact that there is not one question
concerning obstacle DP's is an example of the latter.
Newps
Julian Scarfe wrote:
>
> It ignores special VFR, which allows you to be in IMC without a flight plan.
Ah, no. "In IMC" means that you are actually in the clouds.
John R. Copeland
It's merely for lower VFR conditions than would otherwise be authorized in that airspace.
---JRC---
"Julian Scarfe" <julian...@innoviatech.com> wrote in message news:B8EB191F.8E70%julian...@innoviatech.com...
Steven P. McNicoll
"Newps" <scn...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CC57716...@attbi.com...
>
> Ah, no. "In IMC" means that you are actually in the clouds.
>
Ah, no. "In IMC" means that you're in meteorological conditions less than
the minima specified for Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC).
Gary L. Drescher
Not according to the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary, which defines IMC as any
meteorological conditions that fall short of the VMC minima. So, for
instance, having 2-mile visibility in controlled airspace consitutes IMC.
Newps
"Gary L. Drescher" wrote:
> >
> > Ah, no. "In IMC" means that you are actually in the clouds.
>
> Not according to the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary, which defines IMC as any
> meteorological conditions that fall short of the VMC minima. So, for
> instance, having 2-mile visibility in controlled airspace consitutes IMC.
When you state you "are IMC" that means you are in the clouds.
Gary L. Drescher
Well, not according to the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary. Isn't that
glossary the standard that pilots and controllers in the US are supposed to
follow when communicating with one another?
Dave G.
conditions. Just because you're required to have 3 mi vis and you have 2 or
1 that does it mean you're IMC...it just means you're not LEGAL for that
airspace...unless of course you meet SVFR minima with permission before
takeoff or entering specific airspace. Also stated below that you must
always remain clear of clouds while even SVFR. Don't sound like IMC to me
yet.
Now as far as the definition of IMC it states conditions expressed in terms
of visibility, distance from cloud, and ceiling less than the minima
specified for visual meteorological conditions. Now if you are cleared into
controlled airspace under SVFR then you are not IMC IFR. Now did I
contridict my first sentence? Maybe!!! ( with a smile )
To be honest with you, the stupid definitions are actually pretty vauge. At
least I think so. I fully agree with the statement of the definition of IMC,
but think the example is lacking. Not to argue. Like everything else related
to aviation there are circumstances for everything that can make once answer
right and another wrong. Although knowing what the actual definition states,
I would still tend to think in my own mind, that if someone stated they were
IMC, that they were in the clouds.
>>So, for
instance, having 2-mile visibility in controlled airspace consitutes IMC.<<
That being said, that fact is I am in the military so I am required to file
a VFR or IFR plan whenever I leave the ground so the point is really moot
for me! The actual rule was pasted below. As well as the definition of IMC
in the above post. This is how I understand the rules. I claim no status as
an expert. The sad fact is I fly SVFR more often then not. We fly looking up
at trees in some cases, so I guess we can get away with it. Either way I do
not look foward to entering IIMC which is another conversation all in
itself. Be safe!
Now as to the answer to FAA tests...well, we all know the answer to that!
Now I will finally shut my trap.
RLTW
Dave
>>4-4-5. Special VFR Clearances
a. An ATC clearance must be obtained prior to operating within a Class B,
Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area when the weather is less than that
required for VFR flight. A VFR pilot may request and be given a clearance to
enter, leave, or operate within most Class D and Class E surface areas and
some Class B and Class C surface areas in special VFR conditions, traffic
permitting, and providing such flight will not delay IFR operations. All
special VFR flights must remain clear of clouds. The visibility requirements
for special VFR aircraft (other than helicopters) are:
1. At least 1 statute mile flight visibility for operations within Class B,
Class C, Class D, and Class E surface areas.
2. At least 1 statute mile ground visibility if taking off or landing. If
ground visibility is not reported at that airport, the flight visibility
must be at least 1 statute mile.
3. The restrictions in subparagraphs 1 and 2 do not apply to helicopters.
Helicopters must remain clear of clouds and may operate in Class B, Class C,
Class D, and Class E surface areas with less than 1 statute mile visibility.
b. When a control tower is located within the Class B, Class C, or Class D
surface area, requests for clearances should be to the tower. In a Class E
surface area, a clearance may be obtained from the nearest tower, FSS, or
center.
c. It is not necessary to file a complete flight plan with the request for
clearance, but pilots should state their intentions in sufficient detail to
permit ATC to fit their flight into the traffic flow. The clearance will not
contain a specific altitude as the pilot must remain clear of clouds. The
controller may require the pilot to fly at or below a certain altitude due
to other traffic, but the altitude specified will permit flight at or above
the minimum safe altitude. In addition, at radar locations, flights may be
vectored if necessary for control purposes or on pilot request.
NOTE-
The pilot is responsible for obstacle or terrain clearance. <<
Newps
"Gary L. Drescher" wrote:
>
> >
> > When you state you "are IMC" that means you are in the clouds.
>
> Well, not according to the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary. Isn't that
> glossary the standard that pilots and controllers in the US are supposed to
> follow when communicating with one another?
Listen on any enroute or approach frequency during times of bad weather. The
controller will ask a pilot for his flight conditions. Pilot will respond..."
We're IMC." Same if you issue traffic and the pilot responds "We're IMC." That
means today and has always meant that the aircraft is in the clouds. If you
think the pilot is going to sit there and figure out which airspace he is in and
then what constitutes VFR wx for that airspace to determine if he is IMC or not
you are nuts. Likewise any controller who asks something stupid like "what's
your flight visibility?" after a pilot says he is IMC would be laughed off the
frequency. Stick with the PCG answer if you want but in the system saying you
are IMC means you are in the clouds.
Stan Gosnell
news:3CC55FFE...@bellsouth.net:
> from my experience you do no have to have an IFR flight plan
> when penetrating or operating in the ADIZ.
From mine, you might. We operate IFR there routinely. We also
operate VFR, so IME it's the same as anywhere else, you can be
VFR or IFR, depending on the plan you filed. Being in the ADIZ
has nothing to do with it.
--
Regards,
Stan
Newps
"Dave G." wrote:
> The sad fact is I fly SVFR more often then not. We fly looking up
> at trees in some cases, so I guess we can get away with it. Either way I do
> not look foward to entering IIMC which is another conversation all in
> itself. Be safe!
If you are on a SVFR clearance and the controller asks your flight conditions
and you respond "I'm IMC", you have just about declared an emergency.
Dave G.
statement...That's why I avoid going IMC unless on a IFR flight plan. In
fact it is considered an emergency if you go IMC. If on a VFR training
flight, I utter the words "I'm IMC" I will be in a whole lot of trouble.
That's what we call Inadvertent IMC (IIMC) and have emergency procedures in
our SOP's for that situation. During the daytime it is usually not a
problem, but at night while under goggles you can go IMC under marginal
conditions before you know it because the goggles themselves are able to see
thru light obscurations.
While the SVFR here in the states at my home airfield are a little higher,
while in Korea we were expected to be able to fly in conditions VFR down to
500 and 1/2 in some circumstances...Happy...no....do it...maybe...but the
great thing about a helo is the ability to go really slow especially if you
know the conditions are way crappy. Super way off topic...I apologize.
Although I spend much of my time flying at night under goggles at low level
I am expected to be IFR proficient. I enjoy learning from this newsgroup as
always!
RLTW
Dave
Newps <scn...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CC6056F...@attbi.com...
Julian Scarfe
> > > It ignores special VFR, which allows you to be in IMC without a flight
> plan.
> "Newps" <scn...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:3CC57716...@attbi.com...
> > Ah, no. "In IMC" means that you are actually in the clouds.
"Gary L. Drescher" <GLDre...@deja.com> wrote in message
news:r%fx8.42790$%s3.17...@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net...
> Not according to the AIM Pilot/Controller Glossary, which defines IMC as
any
> meteorological conditions that fall short of the VMC minima. So, for
> instance, having 2-mile visibility in controlled airspace consitutes IMC.
Exactly. There are only two, mutually exclusive, options for flight
conditions. You're either in conditions that meet VFR minima, called "VMC",
or you're not, which is "IMC".
> Listen on any enroute or approach frequency during times of bad weather.
The
> controller will ask a pilot for his flight conditions. Pilot will
respond..."
> We're IMC." Same if you issue traffic and the pilot responds "We're IMC."
That
> means today and has always meant that the aircraft is in the clouds. If
you
> think the pilot is going to sit there and figure out which airspace he is
in and
> then what constitutes VFR wx for that airspace to determine if he is IMC
or not
> you are nuts.
I don't think any pilot is going to get the measuring tape out, but there
are circumstances in which "we're IMC" would be an appropriate response for
an aircraft out of clouds. What you're really asking when you inquire about
flight conditions is "Are the conditions good enough for you to see and
avoid other aircraft close by?" I'd be quite happy to respond to your
traffic advisory with "we're IMC" in any conditions where I thought I had a
lousy chance of spotting the other aircraft. In cloud is one such
condition, but there are other conditions involving visibility and cloud
clearance where it would be pretty clear that I couldn't separate myself
from the traffic visually.
Julian Scarfe
Julian Scarfe
news:3cc55d70...@netnews.att.net...
> What's misleading??
I wrote:
> >It ignores special VFR, which allows you to be in IMC without a flight
plan.
> Oh, come on.
>
> It gives three choices and asks for the correct answer from among the
> three.
>
> The fact that it might ignore 20 other possibilities is irrelevant.
What is relevant to it being misleading is not the other possibilities for
requiring an IFR flightplan, but rather that an IFR flightplan is not
required for all flight in IMC in class E. Thus it is not "correct". If
the question is "which answer would you pick?" I'd pick A, just like you.
It wouldn't be difficult to change answer A to make it correct, rather than
just least incorrect.
Julian Scarfe
les_I...@waitforit.com
Class E without a flight plan?
les_I...@waitforit.com
>How do you fly in IMC in
>Class E without a flight plan?
>
>
OOps forgot about Class E surface areas.
Newps
Julian Scarfe wrote:
>
>
> I don't think any pilot is going to get the measuring tape out,
Obviously not.
> but there
> are circumstances in which "we're IMC" would be an appropriate response for
> an aircraft out of clouds. What you're really asking when you inquire about
> flight conditions is "Are the conditions good enough for you to see and
> avoid other aircraft close by?"
No that's not what the controller is asking. He is asking about the weather.
What's your vis? What about the bases, etc. Is it raining, snowing, etc.? If
the weather is much less than clear and 10 miles the controller won't be asking
you to maintain visual sep with another a/c.
> I'd be quite happy to respond to your
> traffic advisory with "we're IMC" in any conditions where I thought I had a
> lousy chance of spotting the other aircraft.
If you answer that you're IMC that is universally understood to mean you are in
the clouds.
> In cloud is one such
> condition, but there are other conditions involving visibility and cloud
> clearance where it would be pretty clear that I couldn't separate myself
> from the traffic visually.
Then you can always decline the visual separation that the controller wants to
give you.
Newps
"Dave G." wrote:
> If I go out SVFR it is for a good reason so I agree with that
> statement...That's why I avoid going IMC unless on a IFR flight plan.
I hope so, it's illegal.
> In
> fact it is considered an emergency if you go IMC. If on a VFR training
> flight, I utter the words "I'm IMC" I will be in a whole lot of trouble.
And it is universally understood that you are at that point in the clouds.
>
> That's what we call Inadvertent IMC (IIMC) and have emergency procedures in
> our SOP's for that situation. During the daytime it is usually not a
> problem, but at night while under goggles you can go IMC under marginal
> conditions before you know it because the goggles themselves are able to see
> thru light obscurations.
I didn't realize we were throwing night vision equipment into the mix here.
Maybe different rules should come into play if you can turn night into day.
>
> While the SVFR here in the states at my home airfield are a little higher,
> while in Korea we were expected to be able to fly in conditions VFR down to
> 500 and 1/2 in some circumstances...Happy...no....do it...maybe...but the
> great thing about a helo is the ability to go really slow especially if you
> know the conditions are way crappy.
Ah, helicopter SVFR. A whole new set of rules.
> Super way off topic...I apologize.
> Although I spend much of my time flying at night under goggles at low level
> I am expected to be IFR proficient. I enjoy learning from this newsgroup as
> always!
Hey, bring the goggles over to my hangar and I'll teach you everything you want
to know.
Julian Scarfe
> > but there
> > are circumstances in which "we're IMC" would be an appropriate response
for
> > an aircraft out of clouds. What you're really asking when you inquire
about
> > flight conditions is "Are the conditions good enough for you to see and
> > avoid other aircraft close by?"
"Newps" <scn...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CC6CA53...@attbi.com...
> No that's not what the controller is asking. He is asking about the
weather.
> What's your vis? What about the bases, etc. Is it raining, snowing,
etc.? If
> the weather is much less than clear and 10 miles the controller won't be
asking
> you to maintain visual sep with another a/c.
>
> > I'd be quite happy to respond to your
> > traffic advisory with "we're IMC" in any conditions where I thought I
had a
> > lousy chance of spotting the other aircraft.
>
> If you answer that you're IMC that is universally understood to mean you
are in
> the clouds.
So how does "we're IMC" (with your meaning, "in the clouds") or "we're VMC"
(meaning "out of the clouds") convey any information on vis, bases, rain,
snow, and what is the controller going to do with the information that I'm
either "in the clouds" or not.
Julian Scarfe
Stan Gosnell
news:3cc69388...@netnews.att.net:
> How do you fly in IMC in
> Class E without a flight plan?
Don't need a flight plan, necessarily, but you do need a
clearance. SVFR is legal, you don't have to have an IFR
clearance.
--
Regards,
Stan
Stan Gosnell
news:7fpx8.402768$2J2.25...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com:
> While the SVFR here in the states at my home
> airfield are a little higher, while in Korea we were
> expected to be able to fly in conditions VFR down to 500 and
> 1/2 in some circumstances.
Must have gone up lately. When I was there, & in Germany, we
flew VFR down to 300/.5. Did it regularly, & now we fly VFR in
the Gulf of Mexico at 300/1 all the time, 700/3 at night. No
goggles, just our eyes. I much prefer IFR, but with the current
FAR's & customer load requirements, we have to scud-run much of
the time, at least in the daytime. At night, I file IFR most of
the time.
--
Regards,
Stan
Dave G.
me. If you are close to Ft. Bragg I would be happy to give you a tour of
KFBG!
RLTW
Dave
Newps <scn...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CC6CB91...@attbi.com...
Dave G.
I would love to hear some specifics of how flying for the oil companys are
and flying in the gulf. Let me know when you get some time!
RLTW
Dave
Stan Gosnell <bh412ni...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91FABA7D819B2bh...@204.52.135.10...
Newps
les_I...@waitforit.com
Well, one could reasonably question that if you are SVFR whether you
could possibly be IMC.
Dave G.
know if you get this way!
Dave
Newps <scn...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CC74D41...@attbi.com...
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> If you answer that you're IMC that is universally understood to mean you
> are in the clouds.
>
Not even close. In the US, IMC means meteorological conditions less than
the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions. You do not have
to be in cloud to be IMC.
Steven P. McNicoll
>
> And it is universally understood that you are at that point in the clouds.
>
Wrong. You do not have to be in clouds to be in IMC.