"Turn right heading 310, maintain 2000 until established..."
Roy Smith
pretty good crosswind and were holding a correction angle of about 20
degrees after we got established. We were given vectors to the approach,
and the last one was "3 from the marker, turn right heading 310, maintain
2000 until established, cleared ILS-34 approach".
Under normal conditions, the 30 degree intercept angle we were given would
have been fine, but with the big crosswind, we were almost paralleling the
course. I think the controller is used to vectoring guys flying at twice
our speed or more, so he misjudged the wind correction angle for our final
vector. The CDI was pegged full left and staying there. Eventually we
figured out what was going on and just turned another 20 degrees further
left, but by the time we got established we were already past the marker.
What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
--
Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
Peter Luthaus
: What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
: ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
: while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
: appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
Why did you not simply tell ATC? If you turn to another heading than
the one assigned to you without telling, you will never get
correct vectors after that.
Larry Stone
> What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
> ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
> while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
> appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
As a practical matter, approach probably won't know if you turn on your
own. But legally, you were told to fly 310, so that's what you're
supposed to do. Telling them you need 290 due to the wind serves two
purposes: 1) it keeps you legal and 2) it gives the controller
information about conditions so he can give the next plane a good
vector.
--
Larry Stone | United Airlines
VAX and HP-UX Systems Administrator | Maintenance Operations Center
sto...@eisner.decus.org | San Francisco, CA 415-634-4725
All opinions are mine, not United's.
Bruce Taylor
You obligated to do -exactly- what they say, UNLESS you inform them that you are
unable to comply and request something else or state your intentions.
They want you to be able to properly fly the approach, so they should not have
any problem with it.
Bruce
William Sherrard
>What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
>ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
>while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
>appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
>
>--
>Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
>Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
>NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
>"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
The book says that the 30 and 20 degree rules apply to an aircraft's
track over the ground.Since you had such a crosswind,an advisory to
the controller that a 290 heading would be the better option.
In my opinion,of course
William Sherrard
Richard R Uren~a
>What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
>ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
>while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
>appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
With 3 miles to go before the marker, there probably is no time
to negotiate a new vector.
In this particular situation, since you were given a final vector
and then turned loose (i.e., cleared for the approach) I
think it would have been all right to correct the
heading without tying up the frequency to tell ATC about it.
In my mind that's preferable to ending up inside the marker
with a pegged needle, in which case you should theoretically
go missed, right?
FrankNail
>
> Roy Smith (r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu) wrote:
>
> : What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
> : ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
> : while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
> : appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
This one is quite simple. The first thing to remember is what do you
have to read back??? If you said roger cleared for the _ _ _ _
approach you would have been correct. If they are going to give a vector
to the final and clear you for the approach they will always give the
vector first and then clear you for the approach, and you will notice
after being cleared for the approach unless they notice you getting
excess deviation you will get no more suggestions on intercept headings.
In other words you are cleared for the approach exercise your authority
as PIC and fly the approach. Remember you know more about the actual
winds and their effect on your course than ATC does, this is assuming
you have been paying attention to it during the portion of the flight
prior to being cleared for the approach, also at this point you have a
lot more important things to do than get in a spitting contest with ATC,
you have been cleared for the approach so do it. They don't tell you how
long to hold that heading, if you cross the loc before reaching that
heading would you continue that heading? NO you would fly the approach.
Daniel Taylor
>Peter Luthaus wrote:
>>
>> Roy Smith (r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu) wrote:
>>
>> : What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
>> : ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
>> : while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
>> : appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
>This one is quite simple. The first thing to remember is what do you
>have to read back???
>They don't tell you how long to hold that heading, if you cross the loc
>before reaching that heading would you continue that heading? NO you would
>fly the approach.
this is a great question Roy and I don't think the answer is so simple. With
a LOM it might be simple, due to having some idea on where they are vectoring
you to, but without this .. it really is a blind vector with the assumption
that you will intercept the localizer outside the approach gate. In Roy's
example however, there can certainly be meterological conditions that might
prevent an intercept to ever occur. Somehow you need to establish where you
are from the localizer, sans ADF or GPS, this could be a real problem. Actually
happened to me when my ADF quit working, winds were 60 knots on my wing during
the intercept vector, I was in a Seminole with one engine shut down for training,
and I didn't get to the localizer till way inside the LOM. Of course, the
clearance was to *not* descend until on the localizer, so as I recall ATC
actually questioned my intentions. If they had handed me off to the tower before
I was established we would have had a problem to contend with. I suspect they
are mandated to not let that happen, which is why they wanted verification of
localizer intercept whilst I was still on radar. Thinking about it now, the LOM
is required for the ILS so I should question the legality of my approach attempts
after the ADF failure. I reported the failure to ATC, but they punished me by
assigning me to a really ugly intersection hold in icing conditions. I received
little slack after announcing I was an 'instrument student' (grin).
dan
/\ Daniel Taylor email: d...@sd.com
/\/ \ Summit Design Inc. Tel: (503) 526-6341
/\/ \ \ Engineering Tel: (800) 642-9281
/ \ \ \ Beaverton, Oregon Fax: (503) 646-4954
Summit Design, Inc.
Kerry Kurasaki
Larry Stone <sto...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>In article <roy-270396...@mchip8.med.nyu.edu>, r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes:
>> ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
>> while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
>> appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
>
>own. But legally, you were told to fly 310, so that's what you're
>supposed to do. Telling them you need 290 due to the wind serves two
>purposes: 1) it keeps you legal and 2) it gives the controller
>information about conditions so he can give the next plane a good
>vector.
>
Since you were "cleared for the approach", no further communication is
required (assuming you are on a published route or segment).
-Kerry
CityNet File Manager
I suspect will leave you high on GS, perhaps very high. Talk to the
controller, it's a two way "street".
J. P.
Stan Boyd
: r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes:
: >What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
: >ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
: >while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
: >appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
A couple of months ago the same thing happened to me while shooting practice
approaches in IMC (except it was a 30 kt cross wind on approach and a 60 kt
headwind going back home :-(. After a couple of approaches and figuring out
what the problems was, we told approach and on the future approaches we and
the others out there practicing got 240 to intercept instead of 270. The
controller appologized and said she didn't realize how strong the winds were.
Stan.
--
Roy Smith
> In my mind that's preferable to ending up inside the marker with a pegged
> needle, in which case you should theoretically go missed, right?
Interesting point. With no DME, no LOM, and no cross-radials, how would I
actually ever know I was inside the marker if I flew past it far enough off
the loalizer course that I couldn't hear it?
J.Kushner
>As a practical matter, approach probably won't know if you turn on your
>own. But legally, you were told to fly 310, so that's what you're
>supposed to do. Telling them you need 290 due to the wind serves two
>purposes: 1) it keeps you legal and 2) it gives the controller
>information about conditions so he can give the next plane a good
>vector.
>Larry Stone | United Airlines
As a controller, I whole-heartedly agree. We have absolutely no way of
telling what the winds are at anything other than the airport surface.
And of course, the winds do different things to you at, say 2000 feet,
than they do to a B757 at 3000 feet. I try to watch the track of
aircraft on final, but am sometimes too busy to pay as close attention
as I would like to. I also see some pilots take their own corrections,
which is all right (I'd much prefer they do so, and land safely, than go
around and then we have to do this twice!), but just watching them
correct provides me with no information.
Janice
FrankNail
>
> In article <1996Mar28...@eisner.decus.org>,
> Larry Stone <sto...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
> >> What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
> >> ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
> >> while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
> >> appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
> >
> >own. But legally, you were told to fly 310, so that's what you're
> >supposed to do. Telling them you need 290 due to the wind serves two
> >purposes: 1) it keeps you legal and 2) it gives the controller
> >information about conditions so he can give the next plane a good
> >vector.
> >
>
> required (assuming you are on a published route or segment).
>
310 maintain 2500 till established cleared for the approach, they don't
say turn right 310 AND maintain 2500 until established.
Another way to look at it is, are you established on the localizer when
the "needle is alive" ??????, not really, but you start your turn at that
time or stand a very good chanch of going thur the localizer!
Frank
Larry Stone
> In article <1996Mar28...@eisner.decus.org>,
> Larry Stone <sto...@eisner.decus.org> wrote:
>>As a practical matter, approach probably won't know if you turn on your
>>own. But legally, you were told to fly 310, so that's what you're
>>supposed to do. Telling them you need 290 due to the wind serves two
>>purposes: 1) it keeps you legal and 2) it gives the controller
>>information about conditions so he can give the next plane a good
>>vector.
>>
>
> Since you were "cleared for the approach", no further communication is
> required (assuming you are on a published route or segment).
Yes, you were cleared for the approach but that clearance isn't
effective until you are established on the localizer. Until that
happens, strictly speaking, you must fly the assigned heading of 310.
Larry Stone
> With 3 miles to go before the marker, there probably is no time
> to negotiate a new vector.
Negotiate? Not enough time? 3 miles at 90 knots will take 2 minutes.
And you both have the same goal - localizer intercept outside the
marker. It's not like you want to do something different from what ATC
wants. Just say "Approach, Bugsmasher 1234A, 310 doesn't look like it
will work today due to the winds, how about 290." Almost any controller
will just come back with "Approved as requested" and will probably add
"thanks for letting me know about the winds."
Lee Cooprider
Roy Smith <r...@popmail.med.nyu.edu> wrote:
> We were given vectors to the approach, and the last one was "3 from the
> marker, turn right heading 310, maintain 2000 until established, cleared
> ILS-34 approach"....Is it OK to just ignore the final vector and crank in
> more wind correction on your own while the needle is still pegged, or should
> I have queried Approach, "It appears 310 won't get us established, how about
> 290?"
Yes, the first vector is for general guidance, then the "cleared for the
approach" turns over course navigation to you. After I turn to the suggested
vector, I immediately check how quickly the needle is swinging (given how far
I am from the LOM) and adjust the intercept angle accordingly; I'm the only
one with a view of the localizer needle, and I've found that the vector-to-
final is often not a very good one.
So, the vector to localizer is them saying "it's over there, go get on it".
It's really the pilot's job to intercept the localizer from then on.
--
Lee W. Cooprider PP-ASEL/IA, Skylane N2908F "Wiley"
Isis Distributed Systems voice: 508-460-2813
55 Fairbanks Blvd. fax: 508-481-9274
Marlboro, MA USA email: l...@isis.com
John Prickett
in that case you would be _above_ the glideslope instead of
below it. (i'm assuming a full ils, i missed the beginning
of the thread).
john
--
'this place is full of yahoos' -- jonathon swift
john.p...@amd.com
DRol...@connect.com
>
> What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
> ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction on your own
> while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
> appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
>
> Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
> Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
> NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
> "This never happened to Bart Simpson."
I agree with Richard's reply. That close to the marker, the controller
likely would think his vector was bringing you in (incorrectly, of course).
Most likely the controller is so used to the same heading day in and day out
he (she) did not think about a "little" wind. I know at PAE (Paine Field,
Everett WA) I always see what heading is working for downwind and plan that
for the turn to final. Historicly, however, our usual winds are so close to
rwy heading it doesn't matter much here. Guess it does elsewhere!! :)
Dan Rollins Seattle ARTCC Traffic Management Unit Auburn WA
Standard disclaimers apply!!!
Andrew Boyd
the localizer that just weren't working in the strong x/wind and
slow a/c:
>What's the right thing to do in a situation like that? Is it OK to just
>ignore the final vector and crank in more wind correction
I do.
>or should I have queried Approach?
this exact subject was discussed on the ATC mailing list a few months
back. The controllers didn't seem to feel strongly one way or another.
It's probably good to mention to ATC that you are on a new heading
so that your next vectored approach works out better :>
I've gotten static from ATC - "check your compass!" when the wind
is negligible on the ground, and strong at the procedure turn
altitude.
Curiously, this sort of [wind shear] situation tends to get the
big iron pilots excited. Wind shear in a light a/c really tends
to be a non-event, in my experience.
--
#include <std.disclaimer>
Ted Vinson
> >while the needle is still pegged, or should I have queried Approach, "It
> >appears 310 won't get us established, how about 290?"
>
> to negotiate a new vector.
>
> and then turned loose (i.e., cleared for the approach) I
> think it would have been all right to correct the
> heading without tying up the frequency to tell ATC about it.
>
> with a pegged needle, in which case you should theoretically
> go missed, right?
>
> --
> http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~urenaOnce you are cleared the approach nav is up to the pilot. If you can't
get established on course and glide slope then you should make a missed
and try again. Remember the pilot is flying the plane not the
controller. Ask for what you need and most controllers will try to help
you out.
Roy Smith
> Of course, the clearance was to *not* descend until on the localizer, so
> as I recall ATC actually questioned my intentions. If they had handed me
> off to the tower before I was established we would have had a problem to
> contend with. I suspect they are mandated to not let that happen
Is that really true? As I remember, in the case in question, we were handed
off to tower with the needle still pegged. Of course, this was a practice
approach while VFR; maybe they wouldn't have IFR?
Walter Murray
: Interesting point. With no DME, no LOM, and no cross-radials, how would I
: actually ever know I was inside the marker if I flew past it far enough off
: the loalizer course that I couldn't hear it?
ATC told you that you were "3 from the marker". You know about how long
it should take to go 3 miles. If your localizer needle is still pegged
after that length of time, you should be getting suspicious.
Walter
Andrew Boyd
>
>Interesting point. With no DME, no LOM, and no cross-radials, how would I
>actually ever know I was inside the marker if I flew past it far enough off
>the loalizer course that I couldn't hear it?
adf.
Also, with a loran or gps, you'd be foolish not to program it to
the airport, and use it as a pseudo-dme.
--
#include <std.disclaimer>
kelly_mcmullen
>> needle, in which case you should theoretically go missed, right?
>
>actually ever know I was inside the marker if I flew past it far enough off
>the loalizer course that I couldn't hear it?
>Roy Smith <r...@nyu.edu>
>Hippocrates Project, Department of Microbiology, Coles 202
>NYU School of Medicine, 550 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016
>"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
If you fly parallel to final offset by a mile or so, you will find that most
MB receivers will sound off loud and clear. All of this discussion has been
making the assumption that the controller can't tell your heading, and doesn't
watch you target after clearing you for the approach. While a busy controller
might miss it on one or two planes, I guarantee you that the first time a
pilot says something about the poor intercept article, the controller will pay
attention and get it right thereafter. It is the controller's responsibility
when they take over the position to note the weather and winds. The relieved
controller should advise of any unusual winds aloft. Of course if there is
a sudden shift, or hasn't been any traffic for a while they might not pick up
the difference right away. It is the controller's responsibility to watch your
track and make sure you are intercepting before turning you over to the tower.
If the controller is watching the scope, a poor vector is obvious and should be
corrected.
k._mcmullen
>
>Roy Smith <r...@mchip00.med.nyu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Interesting point. With no DME, no LOM, and no cross-radials, how would I
>>actually ever know I was inside the marker if I flew past it far enough off
>>the loalizer course that I couldn't hear it?
>
>
>Also, with a loran or gps, you'd be foolish not to program it to
>the airport, and use it as a pseudo-dme.
>
>--
>#include <std.disclaimer>
You read, but it didn't register--with no LOM, the ADF won't give you anything.
However, as I posted earlier, the point for no wind turn on isn't far enough
laterally distant from the localizer, that even with wind drift you are not likely
to miss the marker laterally by enough to not receive it, especially in the hi-sense mode
which you should use until it is too loud.