FAA Investigates American Flyers
SFM
FAA report rips DuPage flight school
Records falsified to pass students, investigator finds
By Jon Hilkevitch
Tribune transportation reporter
Published November 2, 2003
A DuPage County-based flight school, one of the largest in the country, has
falsified training records and issued pilot licenses to students who failed
written exams and final cockpit "check rides," according to a Federal
Aviation Administration report.
American Flyers Inc., which is headquartered at DuPage Airport in West
Chicago and has 14 other facilities nationwide, "abuses its authority and
constitutes an immediate threat to the public health and safety," said the
FAA's report.
The report, obtained by the Tribune, was written by a local inspector. The
FAA regional office is reviewing the investigation, which is still
considered open.
The flight school, which is contesting the FAA's findings, denied any
violations that would compromise safety.
The FAA report alleged more than 50 violations involving students awarded
private pilot licenses or commercial pilot licenses at American Flyers
schools at DuPage and Palwaukee Municipal Airport in Wheeling, as well as in
Ft. Worth and Addison, Texas; Morristown, N.J.; and Islip and White Plains
in N.Y.
The findings raise questions about the oversight of flight schools, which
are producing a growing number of the nation's airline pilots.
Until the downsizing of the military, 70 percent of airline pilots came from
the armed forces and 30 percent from general aviation.
The numbers are now reversed. And the FAA, concentrating most of its
resources on monitoring safety in the airline industry, has cut back its
oversight of general aviation.
The FAA investigation of American Flyers identified former personnel at the
school who signed statements saying "they have direct experience in seeing
... the manipulating of scores of those taking and failing knowledge tests."
Donald Harrington, American Flyers chairman, said the company may be
responsible for paperwork violations. But he blamed the company's problems
on "an overzealous, rogue FAA inspector."
"I am not going to say some of his allegations were not accurate. We are not
perfect, and we did not do all of our paperwork perfectly," said Harrington,
who is principal owner of the school, established more than 60 years ago.
"But it's totally impossible to change a failing grade to a passing grade,"
Harrington said.
"It just didn't happen. Our personnel have no vested interest in cheating."
No terrorism links
The investigation did not focus on possible terrorism links and uncovered
none, an official said.
The FAA probe alleged American Flyers provided incomplete training to
clients, manipulated records and allowed ill-prepared students to pass
flight exams.
American Flyers is one of a limited number of schools permitted to give its
students exams, an authority granted in the early 1990s.
Allowing a school to train, test and issue pilot licenses, officially called
airman certificates, has raised conflict of interest concerns by some.
Students who go to schools without that authority are tested by FAA
examiners or independent pilot examiners.
The FAA report gives several detailed descriptions of how the school
allegedly advanced unqualified student pilots.
A 40-year-old female flight student from Homewood received a private pilot
license from American Flyers on Feb. 17, 2002, even though the school's
assistant chief instructor who gave the test found the student's performance
unsatisfactory, the FAA report said.
Before the test, David Huser, American Flyers' vice president, instructed
the school's assistant chief instructor to pass the student "regardless of
the outcome," according to the FAA probe.
The student failed the test. But the instructor did as told and passed her,
according to the FAA investigation, which was based on statements of
American Flyers employees and students, as well as documents.
A source at the school said American Flyers' officials feared the woman
would stop paying for lessons if she failed.
"She was getting frustrated over her lack of progress in getting her private
[license] and threatened to pull out of the school," the source said.
Asked about the student's case Friday, Huser said: "I wouldn't have any
comment on that. There is no allegation to that effect that has been brought
to my attention or the company's attention."
No attendance records
In some cases, American Flyers students were given credit for courses for
which no attendance records existed, according to the investigation.
At the American Flyers' facility in Houston, there was no record that 30
students who took written tests attended required courses, the FAA found.
A similar failure to document required coursework for 23 students was found
at the school's DuPage center, the report said. "Issuing airmen certificates
after incomplete training calls into question the entire educational and
evaluation process," the report said. "American Flyers has, essentially, a
cash-for-license system."
During the summer of 2002, American Flyers graduated six flight instructor
applicants, although their training records show they did not complete
course requirements, the FAA report said.
In at least some cases, the students were not aware of the irregularities
until being contacted by the FAA.
"My particular class was awesome, though I saw other people who were not as
happy," said Scott Lystrup of Altoona, Wis.
Lystrup, 39, a lobster wholesaler, said he is not flying or instructing full
time now.
Lystrup said he first learned about problems with his training at American
Flyers after he received the second of two instructor ratings from the
school and the FAA contacted him asking for a copy of his logbook.
"Obviously I was very concerned because the FAA inspector said he was
checking into discrepancies," Lystrup said, adding he didn't hear again from
the FAA.
The FAA's flight standards district office at DuPage Airport conducted the
investigation. The FAA's regional office is now reviewing it.
"This is an open review, which means final decisions have not been made,"
said FAA spokeswoman Elizabeth Isham Cory.
Possible action against American Flyers includes fines, elimination of the
school's in-house testing authority, or even revocation of its operating
licenses.
The inspector general's office in the U.S. Department of Transportation has
entered the American Flyers investigation, in part to ensure the FAA probe
remains on track, according to a source.
Designated pilot examiners who tested American Flyers students cooperated
with the FAA investigation.
"All of us out here have been providing example after example to the FAA
investigators," said an examiner who requested anonymity.
"We got into this because the quality of American Flyers applicants has been
poor."
Another examiner said school officials summoned examiners to a meeting and
"screamed bloody murder about us being unfair. But the reality is that a lot
of American Flyers students, who pay premium prices, come out of there
thinking, `I am just great.' If you have someone who is bad and doesn't know
they are bad--like an inability to deal with wind or poor skills flying
instrument [landing] approaches--they generate a whole new series of
problems for everyone else."
After learning of the investigation, American Flyers complained to FAA
headquarters.
"We went to Washington and asked some friends at the FAA to intervene on our
side," Harrington said.
He said he made the request because the FAA inspector overseeing the school
was not treating the school fairly and was citing it for unwarranted
violations.
At American Flyers' request, the FAA took the inspector, Denis Caravella,
off the investigation in August after nine months of work and appointed
another inspector.
The move came only weeks after Luanne Wills-Merrell, manager of the FAA's
DuPage office, wrote to Harrington on July 25: "This office has received
information which leads us to believe that knowledge testing and practical
testing conducted by American Flyers Inc. ... may have been compromised."
Integrity concerns cited
David Hanley, who directs the FAA's flight standards offices in the Great
Lakes region, wrote to Harrington a week earlier citing "ongoing concerns
about the integrity of your written testing process."
Many of the cases the FAA investigated involved people working toward flight
instructor ratings that would enable them to teach beginners to fly.
Other American Flyers students were working toward their advanced pilot
licenses in the hope of landing jobs with airlines or corporations that
operate a fleet of planes.
On July 22, 2002, Senga A. Butts of River Forest received a commercial pilot
license from the flight school's Palwaukee facility in Wheeling.
He received the license despite a finding by an assistant chief instructor
that his performance was unsatisfactory, the investigation found.
The instructor's logbook contained the comment "no way" in describing Butts'
failing performance, according to the report.
The FAA review uncovered the situation and Butts, then 27, received
additional instruction.
He eventually earned his commercial pilot license.
"I was eventually found to be proficient, but the FAA wanted me retested
because the wrong person signed my logbook," he said.
Butts said the foul-up caused him to undergo unnecessary stress and he
blamed American Flyers.
"I thought the training I received from American Flyers was good, but the
school really dropped the ball with the paperwork they messed up on," he
said.
"When it came for them to find my records, they miraculously disappeared."
Some independent flight examiners said allowing a flight school to test its
own students creates a conflict of interest.
"There is obviously an inside interest when a staff member administers the
test," said E. Allan Englehardt, a designated pilot examiner and a Boeing
777 captain for United Airlines.
Harrington said his school is one of the few approved by the FAA to examine
its students.
"It's uncommon because you have to earn it by maintaining unbelievable
record-keeping systems and impeccable airplanes," he said.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
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MI-150972
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Maule Driver
Subject: Re: American Flyers
From: Bill W - MauleDriver
Date: Thu Jun 13 13:58:29 2002
My experience 7 years ago wasn't good. They only thing they do well is bill
you. They overbill if possible. Don't ever require a refund because that
will take time. Plenty of planes and CFIs but optimized for cash yield and
little else.
"Helen Woods" <hwo...@vims.edu> wrote in message
news:3D078A2F...@vims.edu...
> Anyone have any experience with American Flyers in FL? I'm looking for
> someplace to finish my instrument and do a commercial rating. I'm at
> wits end with broken planes, hard to find instructors, etc. at the local
> FBO.
>
> Helen
C J Campbell
to American Flyers to see if I would benefit from a different approach (so
to speak).
The instructor did not have a hood for me to wear, yet she claimed to be
giving me instrument instruction. We flew several approaches. She
demonstrated complete lack of understanding on how to fly an NDB approach.
She talked so much that we missed several radio calls. She did not know that
when flying a localizer approach that the CDI will work no matter what the
OBS is set to; she thought the CDI was broken!
I expected better of a CFII, so I stayed with SA and finished there. Since
SA was milking me (big time), I switched to AllATPs for the rest of my
ratings. AllATPs did exactly what was promised, no more and no less -- which
meant a lot of time spent on self study. AllATPs got me to the point where I
could pass the check ride, but that was about it. There is something to be
said for this approach, but the graduate has to understand that he has a lot
of work ahead of him. I believe that the depth of instrument training at SA
continues to benefit me to this day. The practical experience of AllATPs
long, multi-day cross country multi-engine training is equally valuable.
If I could construct a custom course, it would be a combination of SA's
ground schools with ATP's flying experience.
Tom S.
"Maule Driver" <MauleDriv...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8evpb.52279$v82.2...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> I wrote the following after my American Flyer experience some time ago:
>
> Subject: Re: American Flyers
> From: Bill W - MauleDriver
> Date: Thu Jun 13 13:58:29 2002
> My experience 7 years ago wasn't good. They only thing they do well is
bill
> you. They overbill if possible. Don't ever require a refund because that
> will take time.
That sounds like most every American company I've dealt with in the last ten
years -- Customer Service is open from 9:00 AM until 4:00PM, but the
Collections Dept. is open from 5:00 AM until midnight. Typical operation
when an MBA is running the show :~)
Maule Driver
> > My experience 7 years ago wasn't good. They only thing they do well is
> bill
> > you. They overbill if possible. Don't ever require a refund because that
> > will take time.
>
> That sounds like most every American company I've dealt with in the last
ten
> years -- Customer Service is open from 9:00 AM until 4:00PM, but the
> Collections Dept. is open from 5:00 AM until midnight. Typical operation
> when an MBA is running the show :~)
>
American Flyers smelled like "produce revenue while providing the absolute
mininum in service and value". Started with a manual with out of date FARs
and 10th generation unreadable copies. Three different CFIs on 3 trips
despite assurances of a single instructor. Ended when I finished with an
overpayment for unused flight time. Whatever the process was for getting a
refund, no one there could do it and surely it would require me to return
home and do it over the phone. 10 days minimum! When I made it clear that
I wasn't walking out the door without it and started to enlist other
students to help me figure out what was going on, a refund was made. There
was nothing in dispute.... just BS.
Anyway, making money is a fine thing -- I admire it. Making money by giving
people a high quality product/service, the way the want it, is most
admirable. ATP Inc. clearly knows how to close a sale and collect a bill.
But they offer a quality package of instructional services in quality planes
with well trained instructors working well designed sylabi (whatever). What
they sell is not for everyone and every situation but it is clearly
described, delivered as promised, and done with flexibility within a tightly
controlled program. I gladly pay for that.
I went into American Flyers (Florida) with a positive expectation but caught
the stench within 10 mins. Should have trusted my instincts. I have no
problem dissing them and hope the FAA takes them down. Sometimes 'market
forces' aren't enough.
Roy Smith
> Everything about American Flyers smelled like "produce revenue while
> providing the absolute mininum in service and value".
I only have one experience with AF. They took over the flight school
ops from Westair at White Plains a couple of years ago (I'm not sure
why, but I suspect what was going on was the airport squezed Westair
on rent when they tore down Westair's old building and put up a fancy
new one). I took a couple of hours of in their simulator.
When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
I didn't even think it was legal.
Larry Dighera
Message-Id: <bo8kms$1gr$1...@panix2.panix.com>:
>When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
>bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
>money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
>I didn't even think it was legal.
Since 1984, when a Truth in Lending law ban on surcharges expired,
some states have enacted laws prohibiting surcharges; see States
That Prohibit Credit Card Surcharges:
http://www.gofso.com/Premium/LE/06_le_ic/fg/fg-merchants.html#MORE:B
MRQB
if you have proof send them the recipe with the surcharge they will credit
you back for it. i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them ASAP. i
take credit cards in my business i pay 0.9% + $0.10 per transaction that is
a min cost that will get me another customer that wants to use a credit card
and it also is a business cost witch at tax time helps.
"Roy Smith" <r...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bo8kms$1gr$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Maule Driver
> > Everything about American Flyers smelled like "produce revenue while
> > providing the absolute mininum in service and value".
>
>
> When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
> bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
> money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
> I didn't even think it was legal.
hard to get a refund. I *never* pay by check. But given a transaction fee,
I would.
You know, I can't quite justify calling them scumbags....
Ron Natalie
"Roy Smith" <r...@panix.com> wrote in message news:bo8kms$1gr$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
> bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
> money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
> I didn't even think it was legal.
Whether they can pass on the credit card fees depends on what state you're
in. It's legal here (Virginia) but not in California.
G.R. Patterson III
MRQB wrote:
>
> i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
> taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them ASAP.
Really? And in your opinion, what is the difference between that and a discount
for paying by cash or check?
George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.
Maule Driver
"G.R. Patterson III" <grpp...@comcast.net> > >
> > i will not deal with any company that dose a surcharge for
> > taking credit card and if i find one that is charging i report them
ASAP.
>
> Really? And in your opinion, what is the difference between that and a
discount
> for paying by cash or check?
>
Peter Gottlieb
permissible to charge different amounts for cash vs. credit, so either way
was in violation of their agreement.
It is still done all the time; just about all ultra discount internet
electronics junk outfits do it. Perhaps the card issuers don't bother going
after merchants for that.
I am surprised that a supposedly reputable company tries that, it is
terrible customer relations.
After American Flyers took over Westair's training I was in the market for
training towards my instrument rating and decided to go to AF for my BFR. I
did it in just about the minimum required time for air and ground work and
the bill was a tad over $400. A friend had a nearly identical experience
with them so that must be what they charge for BFRs. Perhaps that was a
good thing, though, as that made me decide not to go there for my instrument
training.
Peter
"G.R. Patterson III" <grpp...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3FA80CA8...@comcast.net...
John Galban
That's interesting. Just about every FBO I ever visit offers a
lower "cash" price for the purchase of fuel (some even in California).
Is that the same thing as passing on credit card fees?
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
Dave Stadt
"Peter Gottlieb" <ng-repl...@icq.net> wrote in message
news:sJVpb.4405$U23.3...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> I asked that when I heard about that rule and the rep told me it was not
> permissible to charge different amounts for cash vs. credit, so either way
> was in violation of their agreement.
>
> It is still done all the time; just about all ultra discount internet
> electronics junk outfits do it. Perhaps the card issuers don't bother
going
> after merchants for that.
>
> I am surprised that a supposedly reputable company tries that, it is
> terrible customer relations.
>
> After American Flyers took over Westair's training I was in the market for
> training towards my instrument rating and decided to go to AF for my BFR.
I
> did it in just about the minimum required time for air and ground work and
> the bill was a tad over $400. A friend had a nearly identical experience
> with them so that must be what they charge for BFRs. Perhaps that was a
> good thing, though, as that made me decide not to go there for my
instrument
> training.
>
> Peter
$400 for an hour of flight time and two hours of CFI time? That's beyond
absured.
Roy Smith
> That's interesting. Just about every FBO I ever visit offers a
> lower "cash" price for the purchase of fuel (some even in California).
> Is that the same thing as passing on credit card fees?
The difference is representation. I had no idea I was going to be
paying a "transaction fee" until they handed me the credit slip to sign.
The sign on the wall says (figuratively), "Simulator: $100/hr, including
instructor. We accept Visa and Mastercard" (don't hold me to the actual
dollar amount, I don't remember exactly). At the end of the session,
the tach on the sim shows I used (for example) 1.5 hours, so I expect to
pay $150. I also expect to pay sales tax on top of that, even though
the sign doesn't say "plus tax".
If they hand me a charge slip for $150 sim time plus $5 "transaction
fee" plus tax, they've misrepresented the cost to me at the time I was
able to make an informed decision as to whether I wanted to buy what
they were selling. I've been cheated out of $5.
On the other hand, if they say to me at settlement time, "We offer a $5
discount if you pay by check", there's no deception (at least none that
harms me). I can decide I want to save the $5 and write them a check,
or I can just hand them my credit card and get the deal I was expecting.
If I didn't have my checkbook with me, I might be annoyed that I'm
missing out on an opportunity to save $5, but at least I'm not paying
any more than I contracted for.
It's possible they're violating the terms of their agreement with the
credit company, but that's no skin off my back.
Tom Fleischman
Gottlieb <ng-repl...@icq.net> wrote:
> I asked that when I heard about that rule and the rep told me it was not
> permissible to charge different amounts for cash vs. credit, so either way
> was in violation of their agreement.
What about all the gas stations that have a cash price and a credit
price?
I haven't seen as much of that in the past couple of years, but it was
common practice at most gas stations up until just recently.
MRQB
they give you a $5.00 cash discount should be $145.00 most reputable
business when figuring their profit add in the credit card fees in to their
expenses so that they can recoup their fees or they will just use it as a
business expense and get the tax benefits. on the other hand you get the
company's that like to make more profit from a transaction fee of $5.00 on a
$100.00 transaction costs them $2.20 + $0.40 = $2.60 they are making $2.40
then since it is a transaction fee they can still claim the $2.60 on their
taxes as a expense as they can say the fee is for something else rather than
credit card surcharge. now times that by 10 to 1000 transaction fees a day
then by 365.
Yes credit card merchant service will cancel any merchant that is charging a
surcharge unless that surcharge/fee is for all types of payment including
cash. it don't matter who the merchant account is through
Visa/Mastercard/Amex/ All of them state in their contract with you that is
if you have a surcharge it must apply to all forums of payment and any
violation of this could result in termination of contract and future
merchant services, charge back and or legal action. Yes some states may
allow it but Visa/Mastercard/Amex/ do not. Novus/Discover Allow it in my
contract.
If American Flyers gets probed hard enough from one federal agency they may
get probed by another that may expose the double dipping. I have merchant
accounts and have had legal council about applying a surcharge but decided
the tax benefits are a bit better than passing the costs on to the consumer.
But enough business talk lets get back to the fun stuff Flying.
"Roy Smith" <r...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:roy-9669E5.2...@reader2.panix.com...
Ron Natalie
"Roy Smith" <r...@panix.com> wrote in message news:roy-9669E5.2...@reader2.panix.com...
> If they hand me a charge slip for $150 sim time plus $5 "transaction
> fee" plus tax, they've misrepresented the cost to me at the time I was
> able to make an informed decision as to whether I wanted to buy what
> they were selling. I've been cheated out of $5.
This is precisely the reason for the law (when it was still a federal law).
Ron Natalie
"Tom Fleischman" <bodh...@DELETETHISPART.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:041120032206079021%bodh...@DELETETHISPART.earthlink.net...
> What about all the gas stations that have a cash price and a credit
> price?
>
> I haven't seen as much of that in the past couple of years, but it was
> common practice at most gas stations up until just recently
I haven't seen such a thing in decades and I've lived and travelled
through many states. I remember it briefly in the early eighties and
the stations allowed you to avoid it by using "their" credit card and
I had a bunch of gas cards as a result. I terminated all of them when
they went back to taking VISA/MC for the same price. Most of the
OIL cards now are logo'd VISA/MC/AMEX cards now anyhow.
G.R. Patterson III
Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> I haven't seen such a thing in decades and I've lived and travelled
> through many states.
Well, it isn't exactly a gas station, but Old Bridge airport gives a ten cent
per gallon discount if you pay with cash, check, or a Phillips card. There are
two prices posted on the pump.
Peter R.
>
> It is still done all the time; just about all ultra discount internet
> electronics junk outfits do it.
No doubt they do this so the unsuspecting consumer has no recourse after
s/he receives their order, assuming that even happens.
Stay far away from those e-tailers, or at least look here first:
--
Peter
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Tom S.
> I haven't seen such a thing in decades and I've lived and travelled
> through many states. I remember it briefly in the early eighties and
> the stations allowed you to avoid it by using "their" credit card and
> I had a bunch of gas cards as a result. I terminated all of them when
> they went back to taking VISA/MC for the same price. Most of the
> OIL cards now are logo'd VISA/MC/AMEX cards now anyhow.
>
about 25 cents for DEBIT transactions until it was widely pointed out that a
debit transaction cost much less (one cent) than processing a paper check.
The AM/PM gas stations (ARCO) around here kept the practice in place for
about two years after the other merchants went to doing it free. I stopped
going to those stations and don't know if they STILL do it.
Tarver Engineering
"Ron Natalie" <r...@sensor.com> wrote in message
news:3fa90f77$0$75640$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>
Diesel is nearly always double (cash/credit) priced at truck stops in
California.
>
Kevin McCue
merchants "won" (acutally the lawyers got money) the merchants can now stop
taking those Visa/Mastercard debit/check cards. ARCO stations get around it
by not taking credit cards at all. They have ATM's where you can get cash to
feed the pumps.
As for my business, we take cards. When asked if we take credit cards,
our response is, "We prefer cash or check." I have made a few sales that
entered "negotiations" (aka Let's make a deal). When I have given a
discounted price I have insisted on cash or check. I'm sure you all like to
get paid 100% of what you have worked for, Merchants are no exception.
--
Kevin McCue
KRYN
'47 Luscombe 8E
Rans S-17 (for sale)
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Newps
Kevin McCue wrote:
They have ATM's where you can get cash to
> feed the pumps.
At a buck and a half a transaction fee.
Ron Natalie
"Newps" <Now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:E4dqb.115094$e01.418574@attbi_s02...
Newps
Must be an eastern thing, never heard of that.
Ron Natalie
"Newps" <Now...@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:ygdqb.113585$Fm2.101748@attbi_s04...
>
>
> Must be an eastern thing, never heard of that.
>
Actually, it's an "internet bank" thing. Since these have no brick and mortar branches (and
hence ATM's), they will generally credit you the charges back for whatever ones you do use.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
>bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
>money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
>I didn't even think it was legal.
It's done but not a common practice. The University of Washington
(where I'm a student) charges $4 processing fees for payments below $250
and a $20+ (forget exact amount) fee for credit card payments above that.
Most busniess eat the fees (ie. pass it along in hidden costs) for
processing and eqp. Some don't. It's crap either way thou...
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>When Debit cards came out a few years back, many merchants were charging
>about 25 cents for DEBIT transactions until it was widely pointed out that a
>debit transaction cost much less (one cent) than processing a paper check.
>
>The AM/PM gas stations (ARCO) around here kept the practice in place for
>about two years after the other merchants went to doing it free. I stopped
>going to those stations and don't know if they STILL do it.
I've always wondered why I can use my debit card w/o a service charge
any place EXCEPT a bank :) I can even get cash back, but there's no extra
fee. But if I go to a cash machine...
Kevin McCue
Doug
get with the credit cards. Cash is going to be obsolete and so are
checks. Credit card and wire transfer are going to be King. It's just
the way it is, more convenient, faster for everyone. Your customer
loves them. It's what is happening.
"Kevin McCue" <kmc...@dakotaNocom.net> wrote in message news:<3fa95...@corp.newsgroups.com>...
Wizard of Draws
>
> Although I understand your frustration, I would throw in the towel and
> get with the credit cards. Cash is going to be obsolete and so are
> checks. Credit card and wire transfer are going to be King. It's just
> the way it is, more convenient, faster for everyone. Your customer
> loves them. It's what is happening.
>
Just like that 'paperless office' we keep hearing about, while
simultaneously being buried under an ever increasing avalanche of it?
Pardon the pun, but I don't buy it. <g>
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
"Cartoons with a Touch of Magic"
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com
Tom S.
Considering it costs about $100K for each ATM, plus periodic maintenance,
it's great business sense for the eBanks to use competitors machines (which
are in place, at great cost) and just refund the fees the ATM owner charges.
Their customers would have to use EACH SINGLE ATM machine 30,000 to 50,000
times to cover the cost of having their own.
Tom S.
"'Vejita' S. Cousin" <sco...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:bobrka$152c$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
Because the machines in place at merchants are paid for _by the merchant_.
The ATM machines you use from a competitor bank cost the competitor bank
around $100,000 to install and setup.
Tom S.
"Kevin McCue" <kmc...@dakotaNocom.net> wrote in message
> Compass Bank in AZ will rebate any bank's ATM fees.
>
>
Albertson's food stores).
Captain Wubba
Just a minor correction. It costs nowhere *near* $100,000 for an ATM.
Cash dispensers can cost as little as $10,000, while good full-service
ATMs can be had for $25,000. We just installed a new drive-through ATM
at one of our branches. Total costs for the ATM + installation came to
under $32,000. The ongoing costs are significant, but certainly not
outrageous. The breakeven numbers for cash dispensers in particular
are very low indeed.
Cheers,
Cap
Ron Natalie
"Tom S." <tom...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:fwoqb.14$nv.4...@news.uswest.net...
> Considering it costs about $100K for each ATM, plus periodic maintenance,
> it's great business sense for the eBanks to use competitors machines (which
> are in place, at great cost) and just refund the fees the ATM owner charges.
> Their customers would have to use EACH SINGLE ATM machine 30,000 to 50,000
> times to cover the cost of having their own.
The cost would also involve finding someplace to put it. Perhaps with some national
aliance with some place like 7-11 or Exxon stations could do it, but otherwise they'd
have to real scramble to arrange with people to allow them to install these things.
By the way, I only paid $20 for my ATM, and I think I bid too high.
gringo...@yahoo.com
> Although I understand your frustration, I would throw in the towel and
> get with the credit cards. Cash is going to be obsolete and so are
> checks. Credit card and wire transfer are going to be King. It's just
> the way it is, more convenient, faster for everyone. Your customer loves
> them. It's what is happening.
Maybe customers wouldn't love them as much if they knew how much they add
to the cost of their purchase. Credit card sales cost merchants a lot
more than most people realize. Of course, that comes out of the
merchant's pocket... but where do you think the merchant's money comes
from? All in all, cash is a much better deal for both customer &
merchant; the only ones who win when a credit card is used are those in
the business of issuing credit cards or processing transactions.
-Dan
Peter Gottlieb
<gringo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.SUN.4.56.03...@garcia.efn.org...
On significant purchases where I am going to use a credit card I ask if cash
would be preferrable and in 99.9% of the cases merchants say they prefer the
card.
Tom S.
"Captain Wubba" <captai...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:b846951e.03110...@posting.google.com...
> > Considering it costs about $100K for each ATM, plus periodic
maintenance,
> > it's great business sense for the eBanks to use competitors machines
(which
> > are in place, at great cost) and just refund the fees the ATM owner
charges.
> > Their customers would have to use EACH SINGLE ATM machine 30,000 to
50,000
> > times to cover the cost of having their own.
>
> Just a minor correction. It costs nowhere *near* $100,000 for an ATM.
> Cash dispensers can cost as little as $10,000, while good full-service
> ATMs can be had for $25,000.
Sorry...I was using early 1990's numbers. I'm sure the price has declined
since much of the early costs were often for the secure network which is now
ubiquitous.
Tom S.
Does it burn your fingers?
Ron Natalie
"Tom S." <tom...@qwest.net> wrote in message news:Mmyqb.1243$2B6....@news.uswest.net...
>
> >
> > By the way, I only paid $20 for my ATM, and I think I bid too high.
>
> Does it burn your fingers?
>
Nope, I obtained it legitmately. I picked it up at an RTC auction along with a
whole pile of office furniture.
Peter Gottlieb
The real cost is in moving it.
Ron Natalie
"Peter Gottlieb" <ng-repl...@icq.net> wrote in message news:ppzqb.23281$o96.3...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>
> The real cost is in moving it.
>
It had wheels. It wasn't anywhere near as heavy as the desk/credenza set I also
bought.
PaulaJay1
gringo...@yahoo.com writes:
>All in all, cash is a much better deal for both customer &
>merchant; the only ones who win when a credit card is used are those in
>the business of issuing credit cards or processing transactions.
Not true, Dan. I charge on my my credit card and my wife pays the bills. <G>
Seriously, It is a lot easier to contest a purchase if you have not yet payed
for it. You can contest a charge and go into arbitration. Not as easy with
cash payment.
Chuck
Ron Natalie
"PaulaJay1" <paul...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20031106172901...@mb-m14.aol.com...
>
> Not true, Dan. I charge on my my credit card and my wife pays the bills. <G>
> Seriously, It is a lot easier to contest a purchase if you have not yet payed
> for it. You can contest a charge and go into arbitration.
You can contest a credit card charge even if you have paid for it. I've contested
a handful over the years and have never had to go into arbitration yet. The worst
I've had to do was sign an affidavit saying that the charge was erroneous.
Peter Duniho
> to the cost of their purchase.
By "customers", you mean the same idiots that feed anywhere from $1.50 to
$3.00 or more to banks just for the privilege of saving those banks money?
Right. As if those customers really care.
That assumes, of course, that allowing credit cards is actually a net loss
for the merchant. Not a foregone conclusion at all, since many factors are
improved when a merchant allows credit cards, including reduced fraud and
more sales.
Pete
Roy Smith
> You can contest a credit card charge even if you have paid for it.
> I've contested a handful over the years and have never had to go into
> arbitration yet. The worst I've had to do was sign an affidavit
> saying that the charge was erroneous.
In many ways, the credit card companies are kinder to consumers than the
credit laws require them to be. They knowingly eat a certain amount of
loss because it makes good business sense. The loss is less than the
bad will it would generate if they didn't, not to mention the
administrative cost of haggling over it. They just factor it into the
cost of doing business.
Ron Natalie
"Roy Smith" <r...@panix.com> wrote in message news:roy-C08D8A.1...@reader2.panix.com...
> "Ron Natalie" <r...@sensor.com> wrote:
> > You can contest a credit card charge even if you have paid for it.
> > I've contested a handful over the years and have never had to go into
> > arbitration yet. The worst I've had to do was sign an affidavit
> > saying that the charge was erroneous.
>
> In many ways, the credit card companies are kinder to consumers than the
> credit laws require them to be. They knowingly eat a certain amount of
> loss because it makes good business sense.
They may eat the loss, but more often than that they just recoup the money
from the merchant and wait to see if he is going to fight it.
Bob Gardner
SOP.
Bob Gardner
"Ron Natalie" <r...@sensor.com> wrote in message
news:3fa90f77$0$75640$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
>
> "Tom Fleischman" <bodh...@DELETETHISPART.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:041120032206079021%bodh...@DELETETHISPART.earthlink.net...
>
> > What about all the gas stations that have a cash price and a credit
> > price?
> >
> > I haven't seen as much of that in the past couple of years, but it was
> > common practice at most gas stations up until just recently
>
> I haven't seen such a thing in decades and I've lived and travelled
> through many states. I remember it briefly in the early eighties and
> the stations allowed you to avoid it by using "their" credit card and
> I had a bunch of gas cards as a result. I terminated all of them when
> they went back to taking VISA/MC for the same price. Most of the
> OIL cards now are logo'd VISA/MC/AMEX cards now anyhow.
>
>
Jessica F
> "Roy Smith" <r...@panix.com> wrote in message news:bo8kms$1gr$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>
> > When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
> > bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
> > money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
> > I didn't even think it was legal.
>
> Whether they can pass on the credit card fees depends on what state you're
> in. It's legal here (Virginia) but not in California.
Regardless of what state you live in, both Mastercard and Visa prohibit surcharging.
(They do allow cash discounts subtracted from the price.) American Express prohibits
surcharging when other cards do (e.g. Mastercard or Visa). I believe Novus prohibits
it too, but am not sure.
By the way, they also prohibit minimum purchase amounts.
Mastercard and Visa DO enforce their merchant agreements, and will be happy to
investigate problems. You can contact them at their websites.
Mastercard Policy:
http://global.mastercard.com/my/consumer/cust_serv.html
Visa Policy:
http://usa.visa.com/media/business/ecomm_merch_guide.pdf
Jessica F
If they accept Visa or Mastercard, both would be VERY interested in hearing
this. It is a violation of their merchant agreements.
http://global.mastercard.com/my/consumer/cust_serv.html
http://usa.visa.com/media/business/ecomm_merch_guide.pdf
By the way, credit card fees generally range from 1-3 percent. The fees are less
if the card is presented and swiped in person and/or address verification is
used. Because PIN based debit transactions (online debit) cards have a very low
fixed fee (not based on price) stores hate when debit cards are used with a
signature (offline debit) as these use the credit card networks and have credit
card style fees involved. That is why supermarkets and the post office can give
you cash back at the register (and are happy to do so, because it reduces their
cash handling costs since they give it to you). Offline debit transactions have
very slightly less fees than pure credit cards, but the difference is
negligible.
This fee disparity is the genesis of the recently settled lawsuit between
Wal-mart, Sears, et al vs. Visa and Mastercard. As a result of the settlement,
the fees for offline debit are falling.
'Vejita' S. Cousin
>> It's done but not a common practice. The University of Washington
>> (where I'm a student) charges $4 processing fees for payments below $250
>> and a $20+ (forget exact amount) fee for credit card payments above that.
>> Most busniess eat the fees (ie. pass it along in hidden costs) for
>> processing and eqp. Some don't. It's crap either way thou...
>
>If they accept Visa or Mastercard, both would be VERY interested in hearing
>this. It is a violation of their merchant agreements.
Take a look at:
http://www.washington.edu/students/ugrad/advising/demo/ccpay.html
I was mistaken thou, it's a $4 fee for payments less than $150, and a
_$40_ fee for payments above $150. As I said it's BS, I'm not sure if
it's illegal or not thou. I pay by check or cash :)
>http://global.mastercard.com/my/consumer/cust_serv.html
>http://usa.visa.com/media/business/ecomm_merch_guide.pdf
Might have to look into this some more. It wouldn't be the first time
the university has illegally charged for services/fees. There was an
'electiriity' fee per credit that got overturn just a few qtrs back...
tscottme
I was an employee of AF in Ft Lauderdale. I also trained their, on
their dime, for my IFR. I found the training was good, but you had to
insist on working with a bare minimum of instructors. Otherwise you
would never see the same face twice. Their flight record keeping was
thorough. But I was there long enough to see how they handled refunds
to students. This was especially clear in the case of what was called
"academy students". That was a program where students would pay for
training in a class, as opposed to individual training. The student
would get a break on the hourly cost of ground instruction and maybe
some fees. If a refund was required, they would go back and bill the
student at the individual rate and take every opportunity to tack on
fees of every description. Then they would point out that it would take
time to get a refund. It took as much time as the student allowed. If
you refused to take any answer about your refund but "cut a check
today", that's what happened. If you played along with their excuses,
your delay would take as long as it took for the student to reach "cut a
check today."
I left after a "Director", fancy name for salesman, told me that I had
to administer a computerized knowledge to a student when the student had
improper authorization for that test. As I recall, the foreign student
required an FAA knowledge test specifically for foreign students, while
his CFII has signed him off for a plain old IFR written. When the
Director told me I should just administer the test and let him worry
about it. I objected. He told me "you're just an intern, that's not
your decision. I left, and was fired.
I graduated Embry-Riddle just before starting at Flyers, and Flyers was
the only place I had seen that charged a higher hourly rate for a 172
than Riddle. The AF 172s were almost all high-time leasebacks. The
CFIs were paid under $10 per hour of work (mid 1990s) and a bit more for
flight hours, maybe $12. But they would use CFIs to paint halls, run
errands, wash the boss' car, shuttle students, and then lecture new CFIs
about maintaining a professional image and attitude.
I knew some really top notch people in that company, most were
short-term employees. I believe I went to company orientation with Dave
Huser, mentioned in the story.
--
Scott
--------
"So far, fewer troops have been killed by hostile fire since the end of
major combat in Iraq than civilians were murdered in Washington, D.C.,
last year (239 deaths in Iraq compared to 262 murders in D.C.). How many
years has it been since we declared the end of major U.S. combat
operations against Marion Barry's regime? How long before we just give
up and pull out of that hellish quagmire known as Washington, D.C.?" Ann
Coulter
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/110503.htm
Tom S.
"tscottme" <blah...@blah.net> wrote in message
news:RLudnZxYB9p...@comcast.com...
>
> I was an employee of AF in Ft Lauderdale. I also trained their, on
> their dime, for my IFR. I found the training was good, but you had to
> insist on working with a bare minimum of instructors. Otherwise you
> would never see the same face twice. Their flight record keeping was
> thorough.
The issue isn't keeping records of flights, but the granting of ratings and
licenses to people that are not competent.
Maule Driver
setup as you described it after spending 30 mins in the lobby. Plenty of
fine CFIs there but AF has little to do with that.
Anyone who asks me gets a "go somewhere else"
"tscottme" <blah...@blah.net> wrote in message
news:RLudnZxYB9p...@comcast.com...
>