Can a noncurrent pilot log PIC time as an instrument safety pilot??
Brandon Wood
I'm getting back into flying after almost a 10 year hiatus. It's going to
take some real effort to pass a BFR at this point. I wonder if I can get
some useful insight/exposure/experience as a safety pilot for a hooded IFR
student. I want to use every kind of learning opportunity available (read:
if someone else is paying, I want to do it!). I am also considering
purchasing a PA-28 sometime in the near future, so I am motivated to
increase my logged time to reduce insurance costs. I also have aspirations
for the IFR rating after I feel more comfortable as a VFR pilot.
BTW, this would be at a DC area airport (HEF or otherwise) sometime after
July.
Cheers!
Brandon
C J Campbell
FAR 61.56 (c): ...."no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft
unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in
which the person acts as pilot in command, that person has --
(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot
is rated by an authorized instructor; and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review
certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review."
The idea is that the safety pilot should be competent to fly the plane in
the event of trouble. So until you pass your BFR, you are out of luck. Bet
you are surprised, though, by how quickly you pick it up again.
Section 61.57 also comes into play: you cannot act as pilot in command of an
aircraft carrying passengers unless you have had three takeoffs and landings
within the last 90 days. The pilot you are acting as safety pilot for is not
a passenger, but anyone else going along for the ride is.
"Brandon Wood" <bwood...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:IGqF6.2706$j%2.17...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Brandon Wood
I understand I can only log dual with a CFI until I pass the BFR, after
which I'm fair game to be a safety pilot.
"C J Campbell" <christopherc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jisF6.54961$xN4.4...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Timothy M. Metzinger
Wood" <bwood...@mit.edu> writes:
>Thanks for the help.
>
>I understand I can only log dual with a CFI until I pass the BFR, after
>which I'm fair game to be a safety pilot
Actually, you could probably be a safety pilot now. you couldn't log PIC,
since you are not qualified to ACT as PIC. But you only have to be rated in
category and class to be a safety pilot. The reg does not say you have to be
current or even hold a medical. You could log the time as SIC.
Timothy Metzinger
Commercial Pilot - ASMEL - IA AOPA Project Pilot Mentor
'98 M20J - N1067W
Pipers, Cessnas, Tampicos, Tobagos, and Trinidads at FDK
Ron Rosenfeld
wrote:
There is a difference between LOGGGING PIC and ACTING as PIC.
You cannot log PIC time as a safety pilot if you are non-current.
You may ACT as safety pilot, and log SIC time, so long as you are rated in
the aircraft (category, class, and type rating if required), and have a
current medical.
You may LOG PIC time if a current pilot is ACTING as PIC, and you are the
sole manipulator of the controls, even if you are not current.
HTH,
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
macho...@nosoup4u.com
Kevin Hourihane
If you're an AOPA member, here's a helpful article on this very subject
(including several real world examples that clearly describes who can and
cannot LOG PIC time) http://www.aopa.org/members/files/avfax/4432.html
BTW - I'm based at JYO (Leesburg, VA). So if you're ever looking for some
safety pilot time feel free to contact me directly.
Good luck!
Kevin Hourihane
Brandon Wood <bwood...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:IGqF6.2706$j%2.17...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Ron Natalie
Brandon Wood wrote:
>
> Subject says it all.
>
> I'm getting back into flying after almost a 10 year hiatus. It's going to
> take some real effort to pass a BFR at this point. I wonder if I can get
> some useful insight/exposure/experience as a safety pilot for a hooded IFR
> student. I want to use every kind of learning opportunity available (read:
> if someone else is paying, I want to do it!). I am also considering
> purchasing a PA-28 sometime in the near future, so I am motivated to
> increase my logged time to reduce insurance costs. I also have aspirations
> for the IFR rating after I feel more comfortable as a VFR pilot.
No, if you're not current, you can't be PIC and since you aren't sole
manipulator of the controls, there is no option to log it.
>
> BTW, this would be at a DC area airport (HEF or otherwise) sometime after
> July.
>
Do you know about www.dcpilots.org?
Ron Natalie
C J Campbell wrote:
>
Explanation right up to this point.
>
> The idea is that the safety pilot should be competent to fly the plane in
> the event of trouble. So until you pass your BFR, you are out of luck. Bet
> you are surprised, though, by how quickly you pick it up again.
He can still be safety pilot, he just can't be pilot in command (which means
he can't log his safety pilot time as such). The safety pilot only requires
a medical and rating in category and clas.
>
> Section 61.57 also comes into play: you cannot act as pilot in command of an
> aircraft carrying passengers unless you have had three takeoffs and landings
> within the last 90 days. The pilot you are acting as safety pilot for is not
> a passenger, but anyone else going along for the ride is.
If he is not PIC 61.57 doesn't apply
Brandon Wood
> >
> > BTW, this would be at a DC area airport (HEF or otherwise) sometime
after
> > July.
> >
>
> Do you know about www.dcpilots.org?
>
I just signed to the list last night--looks a great community for area
pilots!
Brandon
Brandon Wood
(http://www.best.com/~williams/ftp/avsig/pic.txt):
"In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots log their
flight time when one pilot is under the hood for simulated instrument time
and the other pilot acts as safety pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is
under the hood may log PIC time for that flight time in which he is the sole
manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that
aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as
second in command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot.
The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that the
safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the
aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log
all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot
under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he
is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR
61.51(c)(2)(i)."
(Note: these words are from Donald Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, FAA
Regulations Division)
So my take on this is:
I can log SIC time and act as a safety pilot when:
1) I am "appropriately rated" (category, class, and type rating if
required)
2) I have a current medical.
I can log PIC time and act as a satefy pilot when:
1) #1 and #2 from above are fullfiled
2) I am current (I pass my BFR)
3) The hooded pilot and I agree "prior to initiating the flight that the
safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the
aircraft during the flight."
Some relavent links I've found include:
http://www.avweb.com/articles/eyeofexp/eoe0030.html
http://www.rideguide.com/fedregs.htm
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/avfax/4432.html (AOPA members only)
A follow-up question comes to mind (if I don't get ousted for diverging OT
for rec.aviation.ifr)... For someone not making a career out of flying,
what's the benefit of logging SIC time? (Does it help insurance or count
towards other experience requirements??)
Thank you for such a quick response--this newsgroup is great!
Brandon
PP ASEL (to be rejuvenated)
"Brandon Wood" <bwood...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:IGqF6.2706$j%2.17...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Robert M. Gary
> The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that the
> safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the
> aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log
> all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 ...
I'm going to be anal and point out that its actually
61.51(e)(iii)
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of
an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft ==>>or the regulations under which the
flight is
conducted<<==.
Hood work requires 2 pilots by regulation.
Timothy M. Metzinger
<pat...@DONTSPAMME.snet.net> writes:
>
>He needs the medical to be a non-PIC safety pilot. The
>medical rules require a medical for every required
>crewmember. A safety pilot is a required crewmember. Other
>than that, I agree, he cn act as safety and log SIC, but not
>PIC.
You are correct, I forgot about the reference to required crewmembers in the
rewrite. Thanks for the good catch.
Timothy M. Metzinger
to the list sometime in May when the question comes up again. Also, welcome to
the area, and I'll keep you in mind when I need a safety pilot.
In article <GqBF6.4366$G04.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Brandon
Wood" <bwood...@mit.edu> writes:
>Note: these words are from Donald Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, FAA
>Regulations Division)
>
>So my take on this is:
>
>I can log SIC time and act as a safety pilot when:
> 1) I am "appropriately rated" (category, class, and type rating if
>required)
> 2) I have a current medical.
>
>I can log PIC time and act as a satefy pilot when:
> 1) #1 and #2 from above are fullfiled
> 2) I am current (I pass my BFR)
> 3) The hooded pilot and I agree "prior to initiating the flight that the
>safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the
>aircraft during the flight."
Rick Cremer
Here's some guidance from the FAA's Part 61 FAQs:
QUESTION 1: According to § 91.109(b), a safety pilot must possess at least a
private certificate with appropriate category & class ratings. Is it
necessary for that safety pilot to be "current" in the aircraft (landings,
etc.)? Requirements of 61.55 specifically exempt safety pilots [§
61.55(d)(4)], but where are the safety pilot criteria actually spelled out.
Section 61.57 refers to pilot-in-command requirements, but a safety pilot is
not PIC, only a required crew member. Further, has there ever been an
interpretation that the safety pilot must be Instrument Rated for that type
of VFR operation?
ANSWER 1: Ref. § 61.31(d)(1); § 61.51(e)(1)(iii), § 61.51(f)(2), § 61.3(c); §
61.56(c), § 61.57(c); A safety pilot is a "required crewmember" and must hold
at least a valid private pilot certificate with category and class ratings
appropriate to the aircraft being flown per § 91.109(b) and a valid medical
certificate per § 61.3(c). That person who is serving as a safety pilot may
choose to act as the legal pilot-in-command (per 14 CFR part 1) and log the
time as PIC [per § 61.51(e)(1)(iii)], or otherwise log the time as SIC time
[per § 61.51(f)(2)], but is not even required to log the time at all.
However, the safety pilot's name must be logged by the person practicing
instrument flight [per § 61.51(g)(3)(ii)]. If the safety pilot is going to
act as the legal PIC for the flight that person must ". . . Hold the
appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type
rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;" [per § 61.31(d)(1)]. ).
And if the flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel,
etc. aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC that pilot must
have the appropriate endorsements that are required by § 61.31(e), (f) and/or
(i), as appropriate. This could be a reason why a safety pilot might only be
able to serve as an SIC and log it as SIC time.
And assuming the operation is a simulated instrument flight (as in the case
the flight is performed in VMC conditions under VFR), the safety pilot would
not need to hold an instrument rating. If any portion of the flight were
conducted on an IFR flight plan (e.g., in and out of the clouds and/or even
on an IFR flight plan) at least one of the pilots must have an instrument
rating and the § 1.1 PIC must be instrument current in accordance with §
61.57(c) and be Flight Review current in accordance with § 61.56(c).
QUESTION 2: Another scenario, two pilots are out flying with one of the
pilots serving as a safety pilot and that person has agreed to act as the PIC
(i.e., § 1.1) and log PIC while the other pilot uses a view limiting device.
The other pilot is under the "hood" and is the sole manipulator of the
controls while performing instrument tasks. No passengers are being carried.
Which pilot has to be § 61.57(a)(1) takeoff and landing current?
ANSWER 2: Ref. § 61.57(a)(1); and § 61.31(e), (f) and (i), as appropriate; I
noticed you said no passengers are being carried. So the answer would be: at
least one of the pilots has to be § 61.57(a)(1) takeoff and landing current.
As per § 61.57(a)(1), it states, in pertinent part, ". . . no person may act
as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft
certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has
made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days,
and" Emphasis added ". . . of an aircraft carrying passengers . . ." In this
scenario, you said no passengers are being carried. It is just two pilots out
flying with one pilot under the "hood" performing instrument tasks and the
other pilot is a crewmember acting as safety pilot. This safety pilot may act
as the PIC and log PIC even if he does not have the § 61.57(a)(1) takeoff and
landing currency. (This may or may not be prudent in today's litigation
environment.) But, if a passenger were also on board, then the safety pilot
must have the § 61.57(a)(1) takeoff and landing currency and also be Flight
Review current in accordance with § 61.56(c) in order to be PIC and log PIC.
{q&a-377}
-------------
Best
Rick Cremer
"Brandon Wood" <bwood...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:IGqF6.2706$j%2.17...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Robert M. Gary
that "one of the pilots" must be instrument rated and the legal PIC
must be instrument current. I believe this is wrong. In fact its
the legal PIC (not necessarily the flying pilot) that must be
both instrument rated and instrument current when operating
on an IFR flight plan (or in IMC in class G).
Todd Pattist wrote:
>
> Rick,
>
> Do you understand Answer 2 below? I don't. It seems to
> agree that there are no passengers on this flight. That
> makes a kind of sense, since the safety pilot is a required
> crewmember, so I cn believe he's not a "passenger." But if
> there are no passengers, then why does anyone have to be §
> 61.57(a)(1) takeoff and landing current?
>
> The answer says the safety pilot can act as PIC and does not
> have to be § 61.57(a)(1) takeoff and landing current. Why
> would the sole manipulator pilot have to be § 61.57(a)(1)
> takeoff and landing current if he's not acting as PIC?
> After all, 61.57 prohibits a pilot from acting as PIC under
> certain circumstances, but the sole manipulator isn't acting
> as PIC.
>
> I hate to say it, but this seems to be another one of the
> answers by Mr. Lynch that I think is very poor. It may be
> true that one of the pilots needs to be § 61.57(a)(1)
> takeoff and landing current, but if so, it's got to be the
> person acting as PIC, and then only if the other pilot is a
> "passenger." If there's no passenger, I can't see how
> anyone has to be § 61.57(a)(1) takeoff and landing current
> in an aircraft that is not certificated for more than one
> pilot flight crewmember.
Rick Cremer
as PIC) if he does not have a high perf signoff. Lynch
said no, he can't log the time. <
Based on my letter (and personal visit) to Mr. Lynch that answer was changed
in a subsequent FAQ. The sole manipulator of the controls on a 61.31 airplane
may, without an endorsement, log PIC time if rated in category and class.
See FAQ #288 for the correct guidance.
--
Best Regards
Rick Cremer
FAA Aviation Safety Inspector (Ops & Aws)
ATP DC-9,MD-80/90
Flight Instructor
Ground Instructor
A&P Mechanic
Aircraft Dispatcher
Air Traffic Controller
"Todd Pattist" <pat...@DONTSPAMME.snet.net> wrote in message
news:jrpiet8hh0bl9eac0...@4ax.com...
| "Robert M. Gary" <rober...@agilent.com> wrote:
|
| >He also says that if the flight is done under IFR (in VMC we assume)
| >that "one of the pilots" must be instrument rated and the legal PIC
| >must be instrument current. I believe this is wrong. In fact its
| >the legal PIC (not necessarily the flying pilot) that must be
| >both instrument rated and instrument current when operating
| >on an IFR flight plan (or in IMC in class G).
|
| I didn't see that one, but 2 years ago I read Mr. Lynch's
| FAQ and found his answer to this question - can a sole
| manipulator of a high performance aircraft log PIC time (not
| act as PIC) if he does not have a high perf signoff. Lynch
| said no, he can't log the time. This was wrong, clearly
| wrong to me, and it's been wrong for years. It's one of
| those basic FAR gotchas that I couldn't believe the
| "official" FAQ could be so wrong. Someone else wrote the
| FAA's Chief Counsel,they confirmed this was wrong, and Mr.
| Lynch changed his answer.
|
| I've got two more where I think Mr. Lynch has interpreted
| the "spirit" of the FAR's rather than the letter, so that
| they mean what he thinks they should mean, rather than what
| they say. His explanation on these two is just about as bad
| as his reasoning on this one. In these two cases, I agree
| with him that they *should* mean what he says they mean, but
| I don't agree that's what they actually say.
|
| Consequently,. I take what is in that FAQ with a grain of
| salt. You can rely on written interpretations of the FAR's
| by the FAA's Chief Counsel. You can't really rely on
| Lynch's comments, despite the fact that he was principally
| involved in the rewrite. (In light of the really basic
| interpretation error above, I find it kind of scary that he
| did the last Part 61 rewrite. It may be that he was trying
| to assert the power of his branch of the FAA to interpret
| the FAR's)
|
| Todd Pattist
| (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to reply.)
Rick Cremer
It is confusing in my opinion. I think I understand it, and I think I
understand what he told me, in person, the day before yesterday when I
visited him. He's going to revisit the issue and try to get something in
Change 15 to the FAQs.
Best
Rick Cremer
"Todd Pattist" <pat...@DONTSPAMME.snet.net> wrote in message
news:s3uietcrb5cut3jk0...@4ax.com...
| "Rick Cremer" <rcr...@compuserve.com> wrote:
|
| >>>can a sole manipulator of a high performance aircraft log PIC time (not
act
| >as PIC) if he does not have a high perf signoff. Lynch
| >said no, he can't log the time. <
| >
| >Based on my letter (and personal visit) to Mr. Lynch that answer was
changed
| >in a subsequent FAQ. The sole manipulator of the controls on a 61.31
airplane
| >may, without an endorsement, log PIC time if rated in category and class.
| >See FAQ #288 for the correct guidance.
|
| I know. Perhaps I didn't make it clear that I knew that
| answer had been changed. I don't mean to attacck the FAQ or
| Mr. Lynch. I truly think it is an excellent aid to
| understanding the FAR's. Too often those in charge of
| enforcing regulations are afraid to tell you what they think
| they mean for fear of being wrong. They'd rather wait for a
| situation, read the rules and only *then* tell you what they
| think you should have known they meant. :-)
|
| I'd ask again, though. Do you understand Lynch's answer
| Rick? I couldn't even tell for sure if Lynch thought there
| were any passengers on board when you have a safety pilot.