Legend and Thunder Mustang?

[Roger Halstead]

I hate to break the levity of the holiday season and start the new year off
with a serious question so I apologize ahead of time and:

What's the status of the Legend? The last I knew they were working on
opening up the envelope. Also how is the big 620 V-8 with the chain drive
holding up?

Thunder Mustang. I heard that it had come through vibration analysis with
flying colors, but what about the flight envelope? How about the 620 cu in
V-12? Any problems, or outstanding characteristics. You know, such as 600
HP on 8 gallons per hour??

Hay, when you are wishing you don't have to follow the laws of physics.

And finally: are there any of either other than the prototypes.
If I had a spare 170 grand I'd sure like that Thunder Mustang, but I really
think the bark from the V-8 sounds nicer. Then again I fly out of one of
those airports with a "noise sensitive area" right off the end of a runway.

I always thought that anyone who could afford a house that cost from 300 to
500 thousand would be smart enough to know that once in a while there is a
little noise around an airport. Particularly when you build right off the
end of a runway.<sigh>
--
Roger Halstead K8RI and EAA Chapter 1093 Historian
N833R World's oldest Debonair? S# CD-2
http://members.tm.net/rdhalste

[Bill Lattimer]

On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 01:05:42 -0500, "Roger Halstead" <rdha...@tm.net>
wrote:

>Thunder Mustang. I heard that it had come through vibration analysis with
>flying colors, but what about the flight envelope? How about the 620 cu in
>V-12? Any problems, or outstanding characteristics. You know, such as 600
>HP on 8 gallons per hour??
>

You can get more detail on the Thunder at:
http://www.thundermustang.com/

The flutter analysis yielded no measurable flutter to 600 kts. The
V-12 is a proven design by Ryan Falconer, one of the world's leading
racing engine designers/manufacturers. The outstanding characteristic
is a solid, reliable engine with a gear drive (just like the original
P-51) that drives the Thunder Mustang to outperform the original P-51
at < 10,000'. Fuel usage is about 22 GPH at ~275 in cruise. The
Thunder qualified 28th at the Reno Air Races at 338 MPH!

>And finally: are there any of either other than the prototypes.
>

The second Thunder Mustang is under construction and should be ready
for the Sun and Fun. The second kit is being built at Papa51 to flesh
out the assembly manuals, and the work there has already significantly
reduced the build time.

>If I had a spare 170 grand I'd sure like that Thunder Mustang, but I really
>think the bark from the V-8 sounds nicer.
>

That's 195 grand :). Papa51 now sells seperate wing/fuselage kits to
reduce the threshold of pain. :). I'd have to completely disagree on
the V8 vs the V12. The V8 sounds like a car engine. The V12 sounds
like a Mustang! The other issue is that (IMHO) a V8 with a chain
drive will never be as powerful, reliable or smooth as a V12 with a
gear drive.

[Charles Scott]

In article <34ac0961....@news.skypoint.com>
m...@skypoint.com (Bill Lattimer) writes:

> That's 195 grand :). Papa51 now sells seperate wing/fuselage kits to
> reduce the threshold of pain. :). I'd have to completely disagree on
> the V8 vs the V12. The V8 sounds like a car engine. The V12 sounds
> like a Mustang! The other issue is that (IMHO) a V8 with a chain
> drive will never be as powerful, reliable or smooth as a V12 with a
> gear drive.

Have to agree with Bill here. No V-8 can match a V-12 for smoothness.
More cylinders equals more power impulses per crank revolution which
translates to a smoother engine. On the other hand, V-8's are well
known for their smooth operation. The power produced from an engine
depends on the amount of fuel drawn in, compression ratio and rpms,
among other factors. The AA fuel dragsters (using V-8's exclusively)
can manage 3,000 + horsepower with over 600 cid @ 10,000 or more rpms
for aproximately 5 seconds. They are rebuilt after every run. 3,000
horsepower is significantly more than any V-12 (which displaced over
1600 cid) ever made during WWII. But do you want that kind of hand
grenade in your airplane?

As far as which one (of the Legend or Thunder Mustang) ends up being
the most powerful, that's just a matter of how much fuel, manifold
pressure and rpms each engine is allowed.

As far as sounds go, either makes for a lovely sonata on takeoff or
flyby.

Corky Scott

[Roger Halstead]

Bill Lattimer wrote in message <34ac0961....@news.skypoint.com>...

>
>
>On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 01:05:42 -0500, "Roger Halstead" <rdha...@tm.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Thunder Mustang. I heard that it had come through vibration analysis with
>>flying colors, but what about the flight envelope? How about the 620 cu
in
>>V-12? Any problems, or outstanding characteristics. You know, such as 600
>>HP on 8 gallons per hour??
>>
>You can get more detail on the Thunder at:
>http://www.thundermustang.com/

First thanks for the URL..

>
>The flutter analysis yielded no measurable flutter to 600 kts. The
>V-12 is a proven design by Ryan Falconer, one of the world's leading
>racing engine designers/manufacturers. The outstanding characteristic
>is a solid, reliable engine with a gear drive (just like the original
>P-51) that drives the Thunder Mustang to outperform the original P-51
>at < 10,000'. Fuel usage is about 22 GPH at ~275 in cruise. The
>Thunder qualified 28th at the Reno Air Races at 338 MPH!

That qualification was normally aspirated against a fleet of supercharge,
fuel burning monsters too.<G>

I was under the impression that there might be some plans to supercharge the
engine for racing.
I talked with them about the engine (over at the test stand at Oshkosh) last
year and was told the engine could sustain around 1,100 HP or a little more
continuously. That should make it get right out. It'd be interesting to
see how it'd qualify that way.

>
>>And finally: are there any of either other than the prototypes.
>>
>The second Thunder Mustang is under construction and should be ready
>for the Sun and Fun. The second kit is being built at Papa51 to flesh
>out the assembly manuals, and the work there has already significantly
>reduced the build time.

I'd like to see them sell a bunch? I wonder if there are any under
construction by builders yet, or are they just taking orders an as you
mentioned above, still working out the manuals.

It is, I believe, the most complete kit available fora high performance
aircraft.

>
>>If I had a spare 170 grand I'd sure like that Thunder Mustang, but I
really
>>think the bark from the V-8 sounds nicer.
>>

>That's 195 grand :). Papa51 now sells seperate wing/fuselage kits to
>reduce the threshold of pain. :). I'd have to completely disagree on
>the V8 vs the V12. The V8 sounds like a car engine. The V12 sounds
>like a Mustang!

After listening to them at Oshkosh I still think the Legend and Stewart
sound more like a real mustang, but that's pretty subjective. The legend
has larger displacement per cylinder (same over all displacement as the
V-12, but only 8 clyinders)
which gives it a healthy bark. The timing change on the Stewart also gives
it a different sound.

> The other issue is that (IMHO) a V8 with a chain
>drive will never be as powerful, reliable or smooth as a V12 with a
>gear drive.

Also IMHO the V-12 with the gear drive is a better way to go, but as I
recall the TBO on the big V-12s durring war time was only a couple of
hundred hours. They were getting more HP per cu in than the Falconer
engine, but with the more conservative rateing
I'd hope that the Falconer would do quite well.

Price wise I guess I'll just have to keep going on my Glasair III project,
but that's not exactly an inexpensive aircraft either.

[Charles K. Scott]

I had a communication from an e-mail acquaintence out on the west coast
who said: "The first S-51 Customer built plane flew about a month ago.
They had
over 5 hrs on it a week ago, The only change was the addition of a 9"
stall strip on the left wing to provide a little more warning before a
stall. They have had it out to 330mph+ in cruise. This is with the
Chevy 502.

There is also 3 more that are on the cusp of flying. Look for the
Stewart booth (#52) for Sun & Fun. Gonna be there for the
excitement!!"

Nice to see the customer airplanes finally getting off the ground.

Corky Scott