Auto Engine Prices
David Bael
engine that they did some clean up on.. But paid virtually nothing for
the thing and put in a plane w/ redrive for some insanely low amount
of money.
Just wondering -- how? What's the source of cheap engines? Cause I've
never seen any reman of recent vintage for much less than $1000..
Anyone got some #s for comparison? Bruce, If I wanted a 3.8L to
rebuild, what should I expect to pay for the engine? What about a
13B? Vortech V6?
Oldsfolks
and talked to several people who tried car engines in planes . All he got was
confirmation that he should put a Lycoming in his Glasaire.
Bob Olds
Charles K. Scott
David Bael <ro...@microsoft.com> writes:
$150 for a used Ford 3.8L. That's not a guess, that's what I paid...
for two of them. Want a deal on two Ford 3.8's?
Corky Scott
David Bael
Scott) wrote:
Gee Corky .. I'll have to think it over.. <smirk>
But, why so inexpensive?
Charles K. Scott
David Bael <ro...@microsoft.com> writes:
> Gee Corky .. I'll have to think it over.. <smirk>
>
> But, why so inexpensive?
I did not say exactly what I meant to say, I meant to say that I paid
$150 for each of the engines (total $300).
They were cheap because I found a company that deals with LOTS of used
engines through a friend of mine who rebuilds engines for racers for a
living.
My friend told me to call this person and he would ship the engines for
the purchase price. When I called and found out that this guy wanted
only $150 for each, and "how many did I want?" I talked it over with
my wife and SHE said to me "For that price we should get two, just in
case one turns out to be damaged."
So I have two engines that the guy told me were undamaged albiet high
milage. They came out of trucks.
Corky Scott
mpj
vehicles in-country. My understanding is that a cars engine must be changed
out for a new one when the car raches 30,000 miles. A good source for these
engines is a place called Midwest Engine Sales
http://www.midwest-engine.com/ They have a good selection and their prices
might amaze you. I'm very pleased with the service and product I received
from them. In my case it was a Subaru EA-81 a little while back. Another
good link is this one http://www.flygyro.com/links.htm#anchor80647 where
you'll find all kinds of information. Good luck and good flying. ;^)
Bruce A. Frank
Ford V-6 from a salvage yard, complete with accessories for $600 or so.
High mileage, 80,000+, for $100 to $300. A new crate engine, long block
3.8L for about $2500. I have seen the 4.3L GM V-6 new in the crate for
$1600-$1750(cast iron heads and intake must be less expensive to build).
Don't know about the Volvo.
THe Ford is inexpensive because there are millions out there and
contrary to your experience they just keep going. There is very little
market for the salvage yard replacement because of the very low failure
rate. Some salvage yards periodically scrap truckloads of the Fords
because of the lack of market.
--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8L Engine and V-6 STOL
BAF...@worldnet.att.net Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|
*------------------------------**----*
\(-o-)/ AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.
\___/ Manufacturing parts & pieces
/ \ for homebuilt aircraft, TIG
welding
0 0
David Bael
<baf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Last I looked you could buy a low mileage, fewer than 20,000 miles, 3.8L
>Ford V-6 from a salvage yard, complete with accessories for $600 or so.
>High mileage, 80,000+, for $100 to $300. A new crate engine, long block
>3.8L for about $2500. I have seen the 4.3L GM V-6 new in the crate for
>$1600-$1750(cast iron heads and intake must be less expensive to build).
>Don't know about the Volvo.
If I believed they were reliable -- they would be the greatest deal on
earth..
>THe Ford is inexpensive because there are millions out there and
>contrary to your experience they just keep going. There is very little
>market for the salvage yard replacement because of the very low failure
>rate. Some salvage yards periodically scrap truckloads of the Fords
>because of the lack of market.
They must be excellent engines, they consistantly outlast the vehicles
they are placed in.. Your tranny may die. Your power windows not
open, but at least the engine will turn over assuming the fuel pump
still works.. (I've had all these problems and more..)
My experiences with Fords have been bad for several reasons.
1. Awful support
2. Stupid people who can't do their jobs
3. Overall part quality was/is an unknown
My experience with Acura has been good for the exact opposite
1. Excellent support
2. People who do their jobs consistantly and correctly.
3. Overall part quality was consistatly good from the engines to the
plastic parts.
I may someday get to fly an Acura.. It could be fun...
assa9
"David Bael" <ro...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:f0s2qto89jq149lq4...@4ax.com...
yep, why don't you build a Pond Racer??
assa9
Drew and Jan
<snip>
>My experience with Acura has been good for the exact opposite
>1. Excellent support
>2. People who do their jobs consistantly and correctly.
>3. Overall part quality was consistatly good from the engines to the
>plastic parts.
>I may someday get to fly an Acura.. It could be fun...
I enjoy my honda powered acura too. People are already flying them check out .
http://www.aero-engines.bc.ca/
I'm hoping they do the V6 accord.
Drew Dalgleish
Murphy Rebel C-FYHO
BOb U
My son's Honda Prelude died on the street, recently....
The distributor rotor MELTED.
Seems the bearings in the distributor are prone to run out of grease,
and create enough heat to melt the rotor. There also was collateral
damage that required a new distributor... $313 over the counter.
There are all kinds of 'GOTCHAS' waiting to upset the best laid of plans.
Let this be just one lesson for REDUNDENCY...
if you're going to stuff a car engine in an airplane.
BTW...
Good luck on coolant redundancy.
BOb U
Bob Esser
> Good luck on coolant redundancy.
>
> BOb U
... ditto for oil cooled lycs, conts, etc.
(also) Bob
Anton Elron
> The deal is that Japan has some interesting laws pertaining to their
> vehicles in-country. My understanding is that a cars engine must be changed
> out for a new one when the car raches 30,000 miles.
This is not true, although there is a strict inspection system which
starts when the car is three or four years old and gets progressively
more expensive and detailed. No rust holes are allowed: you'd have to
have them welded up and finished to factory standards, for instance. I
think the entire brake system must be demated and flushed, all rubber
replaced,at year seven: all fuel lines:et al. It is openly designed to
get people to export or scrap their old cars which benefits the auto
industry and eliminates junkers.
The days of really good engine deals are waning because the heavy
resale market of Japanese cars to the British Commonwealth RHD markets
and to other Asian markets means they tend to die in NZ or
Australia..run out to the bone.
AINut
Coupe with the 2.7 liter engine. Engine and tranny are bulletproof, but
the body isn't, thanks to some custom body work by an uninsured drunk
(aren't they ALL uninsured???)
Anyway, any clue as to how much they weigh, with necessary accessories?
Thanks,
AI Nut
Anton Elron
> contrary to your experience they just keep going. There is very little
> market for the salvage yard replacement because of the very low failure
> rate. Some salvage yards periodically scrap truckloads of the Fords
> because of the lack of market.
>
Had lunch over at a Waffle House today and in the next booth were the
guys from a Volvo-only parts store. We discussed the phenomenon of the
bad engines and transmissions being worth more than the good ones. The
diesel VW-built engine used in Volvos needs rings at around 150K miles
and most people,they said, scrap the car.
Several swaps, Volvo and otherwise, are possible- but only for the
do-it-yourselfer. It would not be economic to pay a shop to do it and
,he said, no shop in the area would.
I said I thought the thing to do was to put in a 3.8 Ford...if a SB
Chev will fit, it certainly will. And there is a book sold on the
internet for just that swap.
Around these parts, most people who are capable and willing to do an
engine swap tend to pronounce the word "Volvo" slightly differently.
BOb U
>I've been thinking of that very thing. I have a 1988 Acura Legend LS
>Coupe with the 2.7 liter engine.
>Engine and tranny are bulletproof,
>Thanks,
>AI Nut
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mistake #1.
BOb U
Bruce A. Frank
run for 20 minutes or more with no coolant. When disassembled after that
20 minute coolant free operation a couple of engines were found to have
absolutely no damage.
Bruce A. Frank
BOb U
>It has been found several times that the aero-conversion Ford 3.8L will
>run for 20 minutes or more with no coolant. When disassembled after that
>20 minute coolant free operation a couple of engines were found to have
>absolutely no damage.
>
>Bruce A. Frank
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WoWee !
Maybe you could do an infomercial on late nite TV....
just like those guys that run with no oil.
With 20 minutes OR MORE being a piece of cake.....
Is the next accident, err, demo goal for 2000 air cooled hours? ;o)
BOb U
David Bael
<baf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>It has been found several times that the aero-conversion Ford 3.8L will
>run for 20 minutes or more with no coolant. When disassembled after that
>20 minute coolant free operation a couple of engines were found to have
>absolutely no damage.
It did me no good when my Ford was in the middle of an intersection
unable to complete the journey because it could no longer send power
to the wheels via the transmission.. (But y'all already knew that..)
I'm just glad it happened about 1/2 mile from home.. The engine
didn't stop. In fact, I remember in frustration flooring thing
hoping to get somewhere so I didn't have to push the thing.. The
Taurus is kind of heavy and I'm not that big. It didn't work.
Ok Bruce, so now I'm convinced. I have unfairly maligned the Ford
3.8L conversion.. Where do I get more information. I bought a
Kitplanes (which I no longer subscribe to cuz their too busy writing
glowing reviews of everything they see and no longer publishes hard
tech or development info..) and saw no ads for anything Ford
conversion related in the classifieds..
The other thing that cost Kitplanes me as a subscriber... They found
someone to write an article to give the Mini-500 an "Eh, with the new
modificiations, it ain't all that bad," But I'll leave that thread
to BWB or others more qualified to lead it...
Was chatting with a family member the other day.. And in god knows
how many years/cars/etc.. For the most part, the engines outlasted
the cars.. The floor would rust out, (hate it when foot goes through)
the transmission goes, then there were the loud rattles nobody could
ever fix.. But by and large, the engines (even in American cars) did
run... My parents had a 1978 Chevy Caprice.. We wondered if there
was ever a bigger piece of crap made.. (Ford proved me wrong a little
later..) But it ran and was sold for a couple of thousand dollars a
few years later.
If you can separate the engine from the car itself -- I'll accept that
most engines are fairly sturdy on their own. But who just takes an
engine and puts it in a plane? I fully admit to not being an
automotive expert and having never seen a Ford conversion or a Ford
conversion manual/kit I have no idea whether or not they really are
suitable.
Ok, done ranting.
David Bael
You're wrong. I had an 1989 Legend L.. The engine and transmission
are BULLETPROOF.
Fine automobile.
Bruce A. Frank
Why does anyone think a properly buttoned up coolant system is likely to
spring a leak and loose all the coolant? We are not being shot at by
Messerschmitts. Loss of coolant in these water cooled auto-conversions
is no more likely than loss of oil in a aero engine.
The correct assemble of an auto-conversion engine with its attending
liquid cooling system is no more or less complicated than methods used
to assemble an aero certified type. These auto-conversion coolant
systems are not on the ragged edge of experimentation. Standard methods
used for automobile coolant systems work just as well on the
conversions. There are little things done such as two clamps on each
radiator hose connection, but there are no extraordinary measures needed
to make a water cooled engine work in an airplane.
--
David Bael
<baf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>(sigh)
>
>Why does anyone think a properly buttoned up coolant system is likely to
>spring a leak and loose all the coolant? We are not being shot at by
>Messerschmitts. Loss of coolant in these water cooled auto-conversions
>is no more likely than loss of oil in a aero engine.
Previous vehicle ownership experience which necessitated pulling over,
having gas station replace a hose and refull coolant. Tough to do at
16000 feet over the rockies.
Hoses break and leak.. It' s not Ford specific..
>The correct assemble of an auto-conversion engine with its attending
>liquid cooling system is no more or less complicated than methods used
>to assemble an aero certified type. These auto-conversion coolant
>systems are not on the ragged edge of experimentation. Standard methods
>used for automobile coolant systems work just as well on the
>conversions. There are little things done such as two clamps on each
>radiator hose connection, but there are no extraordinary measures needed
>to make a water cooled engine work in an airplane.
All good points.. Two clamps are better than one and careful
observation of the condition of the hoses (if they're cracking,
replace them) is a good thing too..
There is one extrordinary measure needed to make a water cooled engine
work in an aircraft, the coolant can't be spraying out everywhere...
It's not an inherent problem, but something that is bit tough to deal
with if you can't set down somewhere.. But with the price of the
Ford, I guess it's ok if the core warps... :-)
BOb U
"Bruce A. Frank" <baf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>(sigh)
>
>Why does anyone think a properly buttoned up coolant system is likely to
>spring a leak and loose all the coolant? We are not being shot at by
>Messerschmitts. Loss of coolant in these water cooled auto-conversions
>is no more likely than loss of oil in a aero engine.
>
>The correct assemble of an auto-conversion engine with its attending
>liquid cooling system is no more or less complicated than methods used
>to assemble an aero certified type. These auto-conversion coolant
>systems are not on the ragged edge of experimentation. Standard methods
>used for automobile coolant systems work just as well on the
>conversions. There are little things done such as two clamps on each
>radiator hose connection, but there are no extraordinary measures needed
>to make a water cooled engine work in an airplane.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
(double sigh)
Sorry Bruce.
Your coolant system aero dog won't hunt.
By nature, it is an ADDITIONAL point for failure.
By nature it subtracts from useful load.
By nature it is ADDITIONAL point of maintenance.
By nature, it carries increased risk.
By nature, it is something I can factually be contrary about. <g>
Certified water cooled aero engines are as popular as CHICKEN LIPS.
Make water cooled engines popular if you will, but...
Do not look for any acceptance or approval from those that are in
agreement with the mountain of sound aero engineering data & practices.
Murphy's Laws
1.If anything can go wrong, it will.
2.If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will
cause the most damage will be the first one to go wrong.
3.If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway.
4.If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which something can go
wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way, unprepared for, will promptly
develop.
5.Left to themselves, things tend to go from bad to worse.
6.If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked
something.
7.Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
8.Mother nature is a bitch.
BOb - In case of doubt, make it sound convincing - U
assa9
"BOb U" <N86...@hotmail.net> wrote in message
news:ajs8qtk5ea6r2ta92...@4ax.com...
I thought it had been de-bugged over the last 50 years or so.
Maybe I don't agree with you all the way, But I will certainly be the first
to defend your right to do what you will.
Seems moot now, anyway.
assa9
Bruce A. Frank
Lycoming. The rest of your "what if?" scenario probably keeps you from
getting out of bed in the morning. <G>
Bruce A. Frank
David Bael
On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:05:26 GMT, "Bruce A. Frank"
<baf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>An auto conversion in the 200 hp range will give up 100-150 lbs to a
>Lycoming. The rest of your "what if?" scenario probably keeps you from
>getting out of bed in the morning. <G>
Ok -- we've gotten way off topic here and the conversion has now
lowered itself to jabbing at each other.. (Have y'all met each other
at Oshkosh and theres all sortza bad blood? Y'all get drunk and start
something one night..)
The topic was and still is the cost effectiveness of automobile
engines in aircraft.
Some guy is selling a remanned Ford 3.8L that he never put in his car
for $600 on eBay. Let's say I bought this engine.. What would my
total cost to put it in an RV-6 using the Blanton conversion? Now,
having never seen a converted Ford or seen prices on the conversion.
I'm gonna make estimates on a few things.. (Y'all, feel free to
add/modify/change my estimates)
Engine: $600
Redrive: $2400
Custom Mount: $500
Alternator: $250
Starter: $250
Radiator: $300
New Cam: $200
What'd I miss?
Total: $4500?
The remanufactured 200 HP Lycoming costs: ???
Lycoming minus Ford Converted Saves You: ???
BOb U
>An auto conversion in the 200 hp range will give up 100-150 lbs to a
>Lycoming. The rest of your "what if?" scenario probably keeps you from
>getting out of bed in the morning. <G>
>
>Bruce A. Frank
Ho, ho, ho, Mr. Frank.
PROBABLY, keep me in bed????
You can bet the farm on it, sir !!!!!
If you had Lycoming power, you too, could stay in bed until blastoff time.
Sadly, your....
F ix
O r
R epair
D aily
will give you little chance of living my kind of CLEAN FINGERNAIL lifestyle.
BOb - traveling 1st class with Lycoming - U
Bruce A. Frank
I wasn't jabbing at Bob. Bob will tell me if his feelings are hurt.
Please note there was a big grin emoticon at the end of that line.
Bruce
Bruce A. Frank
--
Bruce A. Frank
just a clear capital <G> for a big grin.
--
David Bael
A homebuilder who is afraid to get his hands dirty.. Bob, I think
you're in the wrong group...
>BOb - traveling 1st class with Lycoming - U
Bullshit. I don't recall the loud, vibrating, overpriced, piece of
shit Lycoming in every plane I've ever flown as being 1st class
anything. All Ford cars in my family have been pretty crappy as
well.. Which is precisely why we have this thread.. Promote
discussion on better alternatives..
So you tell me if Lycomings are so damn great why doesn't Textron sell
a billion of them? I mean really, they'd be used everywhere if they
were such great engines.. They're not.. They are reliable because
they very unstressed for their displacement, people take care not to
expose them to thermal shock, and are meticulously maintained and
inspected by trained mechanics at regular intervals..
I believe nearly every auto engine made post 1980-something is vastly
superior to any Lycoming.. The reason you don't see Fords and Chevys
most GA planes boils down to not having consistant configurations, no
certifications (harder to insure, can't use commercially), and most of
the engineering has been the back yard variety.
If GM mass produced a certified 4.3L "Aircraft Crate Engine" (based on
the 4.3L core) , Lycoming would be hard pressed to compete. All
mechanically powered devices need to be based on a cheap common core
in order to be economically viable and then modified for the
application like is done for boats. I suspect the only reason GM
wants nothing to do with airplanes is the liability risk outweighs any
possible financial gain.
Lycomings are crap.. They are in use because there are no other
approved choices. If the EAA actually gave a shit about homebuilders
and aviation, and they don't, they'd work to change the rules about
what qualifies as certified and the liability implications. If you
ever look at Sport Aviation, the stories aren't about engineering
topics or relevant legistlation, they are about pilot trips, Young
Eagles, warbirds, completions, and other useless topics I don't care
about..
EAA's Sport Aviation is kind of like Playboy, I don't really read it
for the articles. I'm still staring at the renewal notice from the
EAA and trying to decide whether they deserve my $40 for next year..
I'm not sure..
Morgans
> Some guy is selling a remanned Ford 3.8L that he never put in his car
> for $600 on eBay. Let's say I bought this engine.. What would my
> total cost to put it in an RV-6 using the Blanton conversion? Now,
> having never seen a converted Ford or seen prices on the conversion.
> I'm gonna make estimates on a few things.. (Y'all, feel free to
> add/modify/change my estimates)
>
> Engine: $600
> Redrive: $2400
> Custom Mount: $500
> Alternator: $250
> Starter: $250
> Radiator: $300
> New Cam: $200
> What'd I miss?
>
> Total: $4500?
>
> The remanufactured 200 HP Lycoming costs: ???
> Lycoming minus Ford Converted Saves You: ???
>
>
Induction, ya know, carb vs. injection, low profile intake, perhaps. Also,
what about the spark.
Going to stay stock computer, or go to mechanical redundancy? Back up fuel
pump, since it does not have a mechanical one. If you go with stock
computer, or electric fuel pump, got to have a redundant or emergency
electric supply.
To get the most out of the engine, a different cam would be nice. How about
exhaust system, and the heat guards, if it is closely cowled.
There is more to consider, but that will get you started.
Jim in NC
BOb U
>Dave,
>
>I wasn't jabbing at Bob. Bob will tell me if his feelings are hurt.
>Please note there was a big grin emoticon at the end of that line.
>
>Bruce
My feelings are hurt.
What now...
A ban on GA cyber hangar flying?
BOb U
RobertR237
<baf...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>I always thought it was Found On Road Dead. <G>
>
It is if you don't follow the
Fix
Or
Repair
Daily
routine.
Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
RobertR237
assa9
"RobertR237" <rober...@aol.compost> wrote in message
news:20010916225829...@nso-fe.aol.com...
I'm glad you didn't get to the PONTIAC thing
assa9
Holger Stephan
(All ATMK) the Blanton redrive is no longer sold, but a good (better?)
alternative is offered by Northwest Aero (http://northwest-aero.com),
according to the web site they no longer support the Ford 3.8 but do the
Chevy 4.3 instead. They have redrives for the Ford on sale (kindof like
last-years-model), $3200. A used Ford including all you need is listed on
http://www.bd-4.org/classifieds.shtml, $6000.
Holger
Russell
wrote:
>In article <3BA52496...@worldnet.att.net>, "Bruce A. Frank"
><baf...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>>
>>I always thought it was Found On Road Dead. <G>
>>
>
>It is if you don't follow the
>
>Fix
>Or
>Repair
>Daily
>
>routine.
>
>
But if you do it becomes
First
On
Race
Day
Cheers
Russell
RobertR237
writes:
>>
>>>
>>>I always thought it was Found On Road Dead. <G>
>>>
>>
>>It is if you don't follow the
>>
>>Fix
>>Or
>>Repair
>>Daily
>>
>>routine.
>>
>>
>But if you do it becomes
>
>First
>On
>Race
>Day
>
>Cheers
>Russell
>
>
Is that the Destruction Derby?
Victor J. Osborne, Jr.
Driver Returns On Foot
AINut
know how to find him, though. I happen to have a copy of the plans for
the 1.6/1.9L and the larger one, too. If there are no legal issues...
AI Nut
Holger Stephan
David L. Blanton
14 Hawthorne Rd.
Valley Center, KS 67147
I only know he sells the manual which is from 1998.
- Holger
Anton Elron
> Bullshit. I don't recall the loud, vibrating, overpriced, piece of
> shit Lycoming in every plane I've ever flown as being 1st class
> anything. All Ford cars in my family have been pretty crappy as
> well.. Which is precisely why we have this thread.. Promote
> discussion on better alternatives..
>
> So you tell me if Lycomings are so damn great why doesn't Textron sell
> a billion of them? I mean really, they'd be used everywhere if they
> were such great engines.. They're not.. They are reliable because
> they very unstressed for their displacement, people take care not to
> expose them to thermal shock, and are meticulously maintained and
> inspected by trained mechanics at regular intervals..
It's more accurate to state that the Lycoming and Continental
engines, as with many other engines people really love (outside this
newsgroup)such as the Harley Davidson V twin, the XJ Jag six, the
Colombo "short block" Ferrari V12, two cycle Detroit Diesels, et al...
were appropriate technology at one time and no longer are. Technology
has eclipsed them.
For example magneto ignition made sense once-when electrical systems
were crude. Free air cooling worked great in aircraft that had limited
speed ranges and, in normally aspirated form, were operated under
10,000 feet usually,and when people thought a cylinder didn't need to
live that long anyway. Direct drive using a porn star like crankshaft
and front bearing design was simple, and on the old C85 Continental
turning a wood fixed pitch prop it was fine.
Then they started expanding the basic design,adding jugs and
hairdryers and upping the compression as used on the 1 1/2 engine
greats like the Cessna and Piper "cabin twins" that made a lot of
money until the liability premiums got outrageous. (I call them
one-and-a-half engine because they won't do as well as a DC-3 with one
feathered on takeoff..they're pretty good airplanes when flown empty.)
Now you needed, but didn't have, a flight engineer to run the engines
to make single pilot IFR safe.