Plane crash at Oshkosh- Is EAA the last to know?
warhawkmcdaniel
the event and I see they don't mention it on their website.
Has anyone seen EAA write an article on the plane crash?
Am I wrong about this?
Jim Weir
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
Well, since you don't see fit to put your real name with your postings, do you
really expect an answer?
->Oshkosh plane crashes were never published in their EAA daily news
EAA does not publish the daily news. It is a consortium of the news agencies at
the event. Bitch to the publisher or editor.
during
->the event and I see they don't mention it on their website.
Why should they? Or are you simply interested in the lurid details about how
mangled the bodies really were?
->
->Has anyone seen EAA write an article on the plane crash?
Which particular plane incident, you rubbernecker? We had fourteen of them this
year. Two of them were my personal close friends.
->
->
->Am I wrong about this?
-
Oh, why not just show up at our place at Oshkosh next year and I'll explain it
to you with a baseball bat.
Jim
Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com j...@rst-engr.com
Richard Lamb
Who did yo lose, Jim?
Dave O
Jim Weir <j...@rst-engr.com> wrote:
>Oh, why not just show up at our place at Oshkosh next year and I'll explain it
>to you with a baseball bat.
Just because your lost a couple of friends doesn't justify being such
an ass. I am also interested in the causes of air fatalities at
Oshkosh as well as those involving planes flying to and from the show.
And no, I am not a 'rubbernecker' as you so arrogantly called the
poster. You noted in another recent post that such information could
be instructional and might even save lives next year, and now you go
ballistic on this guy. Climb off your high horse, it doesn't impress.
Dave "I hate newsgroup bullies" O
Jim Weir
->Just because your lost a couple of friends doesn't justify being such
->an ass.
Yeah, well, I just heard about Dick half an hour ago when I was pushing the
airplane back into the hangar. Hearing that they had to pick him up with a
shovel and a spoon sort of put my mind into a warp. Sorry if I came off as
insensitive.
Tom C
"Jim Weir" <j...@rst-engr.com> wrote in message
news:j94gmtcl0b6oqp7fi...@4ax.com...
>
> ->Just because your lost a couple of friends doesn't justify being such
> ->an ass.
>
> Yeah, well, I just heard about Dick half an hour ago when I was pushing
the
> airplane back into the hangar. Hearing that they had to pick him up with
a
> shovel and a spoon sort of put my mind into a warp. Sorry if I came off
as
> insensitive.
>
that want details, photos etc. of the victims. They've even prevented me
from getting to patients on scenes. They have no concern with the other
victims - friends and families who need time to grieve. You have every right
to be angry at someone seeking details of things that should be private. I'm
sorry for your loss. Don't let anyone bully you it.
Tom Cooper
Dave O
>You didn't to me. I get sick beyond belief of reporters and other ghouls
>that want details, photos etc. of the victims. They've even prevented me
>from getting to patients on scenes. They have no concern with the other
>victims - friends and families who need time to grieve. You have every right
>to be angry at someone seeking details of things that should be private. I'm
>sorry for your loss. Don't let anyone bully you it.
>
>Tom Cooper
Bull, pure unmitigated bull. The preliminary reports are up on the
NTSB site. Nobody was 'seeking details of things that should be
private'. There is NOTHING private about this information. Those
inquiring about such public information in a public forum have every
right to NOT be blasted by someone with a short fuse, especially when
that someone just moments earlier took the EAA to task in the same
public forum for NOT publishing the information.
Nobody was 'asking for photos of victims' and you damn well know it.
Indeed, there was nothing remotely macabre about the poster's query,
assuming you even bothered to read it. He and others, including me,
want to know the hows and whys and it is the NTSB's job to publish it.
I already knew where to look.
Sunday morning at Oshkosh the controllers were sending VFR pilots out
into a morning sun with ATIS reporting 2.5 miles visibility and 1,200'
ceiling -- yes, 2.5 miles visibility. The planes were departing 18R
and heading due south, single file, at or below 1,300' until clear of
class D as per the NOTAM. They were departing at approximately 30
second intervals -- Ercoupes followed by Lancairs, Cubs followed by
Long Ezs. Shortly after the reports of a downed plane began
circulating, the field went 'officially' IFR at 2.5 miles and 600'
broken. The VFR departures were stopped. It stayed that way for
about 45 minutes. So, yes I want to know if Sunday morning's rumor of
a plane down was true. Your suggestion that there is something morbid
or inappropriate about such an interest is pure unmitigated bull shit.
Dave O
Kyle Boatright
>into a morning sun with ATIS reporting 2.5 miles visibility and 1,200'
>ceiling -- yes, 2.5 miles visibility. The planes were departing 18R
>and heading due south, single file, at or below 1,300' until clear of
>class D as per the NOTAM. They were departing at approximately 30
>second intervals -- Ercoupes followed by Lancairs, Cubs followed by
>Long Ezs. Shortly after the reports of a downed plane began
>circulating, the field went 'officially' IFR at 2.5 miles and 600'
>broken. The VFR departures were stopped. It stayed that way for
>about 45 minutes.
>
I was probably in the first half dozen aircraft to launch Sunday A.M. It was
by far the worst "VFR" weather I've ever encountered. Low ceilings and
extremely poor visibility below the ceiling. A few miles to the south, the
ceilings dropped even further and we put the airplane down at a nearby airport.
Add that to a very high level of VFR traffic and it was a very dangerous
situation.
As we headed towards the field where we put down temporarily, it was
disconcerting to see a very tall tower pass by a mile or two off the left wing,
knowing that there were probably a hundred or more VFR aircraft launching in
that direction, with rotten conditions.
Of course, VFR pilots (including myself) did choose to launch into the mess,
but it was a bad decision, in hindsight.
KB
Kevin O'Brien
You're not wrong, Mac. But I don't think that's their job. In a world where the
media tries to tear down aviation, we have organisations which lobby for and
promote aviation.
So whose job is it? The independent aviation media. And those of us in the
informal av network, like RAH.
I wouldn't expect EAA to dwell on the fatalities at OSH any more that I would
expect Toyota to run an ad praising Fords.
cheers
-=K=-
Rule #3: Faith can move mountains. Your aeroplane cannot.
Kevin O'Brien
says...
>I get sick beyond belief of reporters and other ghouls
>that want details, photos etc. of the victims.
Tom, this is no shit. The day the Glasair crashed I was in the media pavilion
filing some story (probably something about some of the people there -- the most
interesting part to me -- I have a lot of latitude in what I write). There was a
TV crew in there filing their video over the net (and hogging all the bandwidth)
from a Fox affiliate.
The reporter/producer was a twentysomething blonde bimbo who was positively
GLEEFUL over the crash. In shaking hands I wrote down some of the crap she said
and, somewhat censored, filed it later. After a long thought I did not ID the
channel she worked for in the public report seen by 100k plus, but it was Fox
News 55 -- wherever that is.
Meanwhile, I'm writing her shit in my notebook with my left hand and typing
emails with my right... that evening Tim Kern was glad to see me. Based on the
content of my email he thought he might be getting a phone call from jail where
I was being held for murdering the [anatomically explicit pejorative].
Apparently I sent him five really apeshit emails.
My Stranglin' Thumbs were twitching. And I didn't even know the guy.
One of the show accidents was a guy who volunteered thousands of hours with
Angel Flight. And his epitaph might have been "Crash? Oh good! Get a truck over
there now... get some good visuals! It's still burning? Oh, COOL... we got a
lead story," or words to that effect.
Dave O
kboat...@aol.comnobs (Kyle Boatright) wrote:
>I was probably in the first half dozen aircraft to launch Sunday A.M. It was
>by far the worst "VFR" weather I've ever encountered. Low ceilings and
>extremely poor visibility below the ceiling. A few miles to the south, the
>ceilings dropped even further and we put the airplane down at a nearby airport.
> Add that to a very high level of VFR traffic and it was a very dangerous
>situation.
>
>As we headed towards the field where we put down temporarily, it was
>disconcerting to see a very tall tower pass by a mile or two off the left wing,
>knowing that there were probably a hundred or more VFR aircraft launching in
>that direction, with rotten conditions.
>
>Of course, VFR pilots (including myself) did choose to launch into the mess,
>but it was a bad decision, in hindsight.
>
>KB
Kyle,
I'm left to wonder whether I would have launched into that mess. The
consensus among the observers in Showplane camping was that the
conditions could be quite dangerous, especially for low time VFR
pilots who are used to picking their fair weather days to fly. I was
listening to the tower at the time and I didn't hear any requests to
taxi back to wait for better weather. I'm sure many of the pilots
felt some pressure (whether real, imagined, or self-imposed) to go
with the program and not gum up the works. It should be noted that
the pilots weren't even supposed to key the mic unless specifically
asked to do so. The mission was to launch and to launch quickly.
Perhaps there was also a bit of rationalization going on as well. One
might have rationalized that everyone else was launching VFR into the
muck so it must not be that bad. I suppose I would have launched as
well. I'll file this one away in the lesson learned department.
Regards,
Dave O
Alan Staats
<ke...@useorganisationasdomainname.com> wrote:
actually, you're BOTH wrong.
in one of their daily updates, they id'd the pilot of the G-202.
"AirVenture-bound pilot killed in crash
Robert Conrad Payne, 56, of Pecatonica, Ill., was killed on Tuesday
when the Giles G-202 homebuilt he was flying impacted the ground on
approach to Wittman Field. Payne was not the owner, who asked not to
be named. The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating."
here's the url:
http://www.airventure.org/2001/thursday26/inbrief.html
...and here's their bit on the Glasair crash:
"EAA member killed in plane crash
Bennett Moyle, 55, of Minneapolis, died Thursday afternoon when his
1989 Glasair III homebuilt went down in an area between two industrial
park businesses just went of Highway 41 and Wittman Field. He was the
sole occupant of the plane. The National Transportation Safety Board
is investigating.
Moyle was an EAA member since 1984 and was active in EAA Chapter 178
in the Twin Cities."
here's that url:
http://www.airventure.org/2001/saturday28/inbrief.html
the job of a journalist, mr. o'brien, is the dissemination of facts.
get yours straight before you make pronouncements about what you think
that job is, and how well you think you, and more importantly,
everyone else, is doing it.
alan staats
www.flightleveldesign.com
Ron Natalie
Jim Weir wrote:
>
> ->Oshkosh plane crashes were never published in their EAA daily news
>
> EAA does not publish the daily news. It is a consortium of the news agencies at
> the event. Bitch to the publisher or editor.
EAA does most certainly publish the AirVenture Today. They used to invite
a guest organization (such as GANews) to come in and print up an on-field
newspaper, but they took this over a couple of years ago.
Alan Staats
<ke...@useorganisationasdomainname.com> wrote:
>
>The reporter/producer was a twentysomething blonde bimbo who was positively
>GLEEFUL over the crash. In shaking hands I wrote down some of the crap she said
>and, somewhat censored, filed it later. After a long thought I did not ID the
>channel she worked for in the public report seen by 100k plus, but it was Fox
>News 55 -- wherever that is.
>
fort wayne, indiana. an awfully long way to go to do a simple hit
piece. on the one hand, i am glad for you that you showed restraint
in not id'ing the station in the story published on ann. i do feel
that you should have shown the same restraint here, though, especially
since you are linking these comments to a story seen by "100K plus"
readers, and i hope that these facts are more accurate than those you
shared regarding the EAA publishing airventure accident data on their
website and taxiing EZs on grass.
if they're not, i hope you have a good libel/defamation lawyer just in
case wfft decides to press the issue.
alan staats
www.flightleveldesign.com
Jim Weir
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
->Sunday morning at Oshkosh the controllers were sending VFR pilots out
->into a morning sun with ATIS reporting 2.5 miles visibility and 1,200'
->ceiling -- yes, 2.5 miles visibility.
To quote from your prior post, "...pure unmitigated bull shit...". Not a
single VFR airplane left the field until the ATIS (Information Echo if you want
to look up the tape) reported 1300' ceiling and 3 miles visibility. I was in
the line, Charlie, were you?
The planes were departing 18R
->and heading due south, single file, at or below 1,300' until clear of
->class D as per the NOTAM.
The instructions were "heading 130°". You are chock full of misinformation,
aren't you?
They were departing at approximately 30
->second intervals -- Ercoupes followed by Lancairs, Cubs followed by
->Long Ezs.
15 second intervals at MOST. The only "holds" in the first hour of departures
were for the stupid Ford Trimotor to grub a few more dollars hopping rides and
for some "memorial flyby" that never materialized.
Jim Weir
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
->EAA does most certainly publish the AirVenture Today. They used to invite
->a guest organization (such as GANews) to come in and print up an on-field
->newspaper, but they took this over a couple of years ago.
I stand corrected. Last time I looked, the paper was published by a consortium
of GAN and Flying. My error in not examining the masthead this year.
Ron Natalie
> 15 second intervals at MOST. The only "holds" in the first hour of departures
> were for the stupid Ford Trimotor to grub a few more dollars hopping rides and
> for some "memorial flyby" that never materialized.
Hey Jim, I was getting my money grubbed. I was in the trimotor and saw you
in about the #2 position in line as we taxied in.
Kevin O'Brien
FLD51@[REMOVE_THIS_SPAMBLOCK]pacbell.net says...
>the job of a journalist, mr. o'brien, is the dissemination of facts.
I am a columnist... my job is the dissemination of my opinion, actually. I did
do some straight reporting during the show (and there are more reports to come)
because there was more news than the correspondents can handle, especially when
one of them is paws up in Mercy Hospital. But if you have followed my bylines
you will see that by and large I write about the people, not so much the events.
I did have journalism classes in college, back when colleges actually taught
stuff. But I'd rather tell a story than write a pyramidal "just the facts ma'am"
news setpiece. If you don't like it, something else to read is a click away.
Thank you for the correction on EAA's reporting of these mishaps. These EAA
reports are factual and accurate. As were, by the way, ours at the time. I
didn't think that EAA had this in their daily update because at the time they
didn't know anything about the accidents. They were getting what they were
getting from the local TV stations.
>get yours straight before you make pronouncements about what you think
>that job is, and how well you think you, and more importantly,
>everyone else, is doing it.
My, Alan, did someone pee in your Post Toasties this morning?
I still don't think it's EAA's job to be all over the news. In the final
analysis they are an advocacy organisation, and I like them like that. I do
think that Dick Knapinsky and the EAA media crew did a great job, FWIW. You
should have seen some of the things they struggled with, particularlt w/r/t
foreign journos and the TV creeps.
If you don't like the way I write, write yourself. Everyone out there needs good
content. Word on the ramp was that Dave Martin is looking still for a good
associate editor. Why don't you apply? You take excellent photographs, which
should give you an edge, I would think.
Alan Staats
<ke...@useorganisationasdomainname.com> wrote:
>In article <3b6949fc....@news.pacbell.net>,
>FLD51@[REMOVE_THIS_SPAMBLOCK]pacbell.net says...
>
>>the job of a journalist, mr. o'brien, is the dissemination of facts.
>
>I am a columnist... my job is the dissemination of my opinion, actually.
...yes i know what your job is. most columnists that i am familiar
with, however, base their opinions, and therefore the credibility of
those opinions, on a solid background of fact. you, in this case, do
not possess that solid background, which two minutes of research would
have provided you.
> I did
>do some straight reporting during the show (and there are more reports to come)
>because there was more news than the correspondents can handle, especially when
>one of them is paws up in Mercy Hospital. But if you have followed my bylines
>you will see that by and large I write about the people, not so much the events.
>I did have journalism classes in college, back when colleges actually taught
>stuff.
>But I'd rather tell a story than write a pyramidal "just the facts ma'am"
>news setpiece. If you don't like it, something else to read is a click away.
>
>Thank you for the correction on EAA's reporting of these mishaps. These EAA
>reports are factual and accurate. As were, by the way, ours at the time. I
>didn't think that EAA had this in their daily update because at the time they
>didn't know anything about the accidents. They were getting what they were
>getting from the local TV stations.
THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE ACCIDENTS? AIRCRAFT THAT WENT DOWN ON
APPROACH TO THEIR FACILITY, AND YOU'RE TELLING ME (AND THE WORLD) THEY
DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THEM? BULLSHIT. THEY DIDN'T TELL YOU ABOUT THEM,
BUT THEY KNEW ABOUT IT LONG BEFORE, AND THE REST OF THE WORLD YOU DID.
>
>>get yours straight before you make pronouncements about what you think
>>that job is, and how well you think you, and more importantly,
>>everyone else, is doing it.
>
>My, Alan, did someone pee in your Post Toasties this morning?
no. an amateur used by a psychotic was enough to get me going.
>
>I still don't think it's EAA's job to be all over the news.
ummmm.... mr. o'brien, have you ever heard of a publication called
"sport aviation?" how about "vintage airplane?" "warbirds?" i'm
sure budd davisson will be pleased to know he doesn't work in the news
business. do you read this stuff before you hit the "send" button?
>In the final
>analysis they are an advocacy organisation, and I like them like that. I do
>think that Dick Knapinsky and the EAA media crew did a great job, FWIW. You
>should have seen some of the things they struggled with, particularlt w/r/t
>foreign journos and the TV creeps.
>
>If you don't like the way I write, write yourself. Everyone out there needs good
>content. Word on the ramp was that Dave Martin is looking still for a good
>associate editor. Why don't you apply? You take excellent photographs, which
>should give you an edge, I would think.
mr. o'brien, on the editorial byline count, we're at about 500:1, in
favor of me. but thanks for the career advice.
>
>cheers
>
>-=K=-
>
>Rule #3: Faith can move mountains. Your aeroplane cannot.
>
alan staats
www.flightleveldesign.com
Kevin O'Brien
FLD51@[REMOVE_THIS_SPAMBLOCK]pacbell.net says...
>
>THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE ACCIDENTS? AIRCRAFT THAT WENT DOWN ON
>APPROACH TO THEIR FACILITY, AND YOU'RE TELLING ME (AND THE WORLD) THEY
>DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THEM?
Yes, you ignorant, childish, screaming infant, when the planes went in (both
times) no one in authority at EAA knew or was able to tell Knapinsky who had
gone in, what the types were, or a clear report of the circumstances of the
crashes for over an hour. EAA got THEIR information from the television and from
the Oshkosh Northwestern. I was there. Where were you? In Mater & Pater's spare
room? Do they know you're using their computer?
> BULLSHIT.
Go chew on the rug some more, will you? Caps lock key is between Shift and Tab.
> THEY DIDN'T TELL YOU ABOUT THEM,
>BUT THEY KNEW ABOUT IT LONG BEFORE, AND THE REST OF THE WORLD YOU DID.
Someone did indeed pee in your Post Toasties. Maybe it was me, enjoy. Is that
sentence English? What is your native language?
>>I still don't think it's EAA's job to be all over the news.
>
>ummmm.... mr. o'brien, have you ever heard of a publication called
>"sport aviation?" how about "vintage airplane?" "warbirds?" i'm
>sure budd davisson will be pleased to know he doesn't work in the news
>business. do you read this stuff before you hit the "send" button?
Duh, no. I never heard of 250 copies of SA that are in this study. They just
showed up here. Should I read them? You clewless berk. And no, it's not news.
Information yes, not news. I would think Budd Davisson would be astounded to
find he's in the news business -- he seems to think he's a pilot who writes to
share his knowledge with others. What a concept. But I will not presume to speak
for him, or for you, wheras you seem to have no difficulty speaking for him or
putting words in my mouth.
Alan, you are a vicious, insecure, mean little twerp who would be a bully if
only he had some weight behind him. I'm through being polite to you. At least
until you finish puberty, or the terrible twos, or whatever arrested phase of
development you find yourself in. Good day.
Joe Norris
> >
>
> fort wayne, indiana.
Even closer than that, Alan. Wausau Wisconsin has a Fox 55 these days.
Joe
Dave O
Jim Weir <j...@rst-engr.com> wrote:
>To quote from your prior post, "...pure unmitigated bull shit...". Not a
>single VFR airplane left the field until the ATIS (Information Echo if you want
>to look up the tape) reported 1300' ceiling and 3 miles visibility. I was in
>the line, Charlie, were you?
My name is not Charlie. Where was I? I was in Showplane camping next
to taxiway Papa with my ICOM A4 listening to departure ATIS (128.75)
reporting 2.5 miles visibility WHILE THE CONTROLLERS WERE DISPATCHING
VFR TRAFFIC. This went on for at least another 15 minutes until the
field went 'officially' IFR at 2.5 miles and 600' broken. That is a
FACT. If you were indeed in line at the same time that I was making
these observations then you too would have known this FACT if you had
bothered to recheck the departure ATIS.
> The planes were departing 18R
>->and heading due south, single file, at or below 1,300' until clear of
>->class D as per the NOTAM.
>
>The instructions were "heading 130°". You are chock full of misinformation,
>aren't you?
No, I am not chock full of misinformation. The departure instructions
were exactly as I noted -- perhaps you should review the relevant
parts of the NOTAM. I am also accurately reporting what I saw and
heard. The planes were departing 18R (note the R) and heading due
south AS PER THE NOTAM. They were disappearing into the mist heading
due south.
Dave O (not 'Charlie')
Kyle Boatright
>>->and heading due south, single file, at or below 1,300' until clear of
>>->class D as per the NOTAM.
>>
>>The instructions were "heading 130°". You are chock full of misinformation,
>>aren't you?
>
>No, I am not chock full of misinformation. The departure instructions
>were exactly as I noted -- perhaps you should review the relevant
>parts of the NOTAM. I am also accurately reporting what I saw and
>heard. The planes were departing 18R (note the R) and heading due
>south AS PER THE NOTAM. They were disappearing into the mist heading
>due south.
>
>Dave O (not 'Charlie')
Gentlemen,
Regarding direction of flight for the departing traffic, both of you are right
(and wrong). The tower gave instructions for 130 and 180 degree departures,
and <may> have been alternating these two headings (I assumed it was to
increase aircraft spacing.) I definitely got a 130 heading, and ended up at
the lake in short fashion, but I definitely heard 180 degree departure
instructions given to other a/c.
KB
Dave O
kboat...@aol.comnobs (Kyle Boatright) wrote:
>The tower gave instructions for 130 and 180 degree departures,
>and <may> have been alternating these two headings (I assumed it was to
>increase aircraft spacing.) I definitely got a 130 heading, and ended up at
>the lake in short fashion, but I definitely heard 180 degree departure
>instructions given to other a/c.
>
>KB
Yes I saw a few head off SE as well. At the time I was observing the
departures, however, which was just prior to the field going
officially IFR, the vast majority of the planes were being dispatched
due south exactly per the NOTAM and exactly as I noted in the post
that Mr. Weir contentiously and quite erroneously labeled "chock full
of misinformation".
David O
Alan Staats
<ke...@useorganisationasdomainname.com> wrote:
thanks, o'brien. i wanted to see if i could prove that you were a
clueless, biased, uninformed moron, and you did it for me.
yes. you should read them.
thanks again for playing, and welcome to captain zippy's publically
certified idiot club.
>Duh, no. I never heard of 250 copies of SA that are in this study. They just
>showed up here. Should I read them? You clewless berk. And no, it's not news.
>Information yes, not news. I would think Budd Davisson would be astounded to
>find he's in the news business -- he seems to think he's a pilot who writes to
>share his knowledge with others. What a concept. But I will not presume to speak
>for him, or for you, wheras you seem to have no difficulty speaking for him or
>putting words in my mouth.
>
>Alan, you are a vicious, insecure, mean little twerp who would be a bully if
>only he had some weight behind him. I'm through being polite to you. At least
>until you finish puberty, or the terrible twos, or whatever arrested phase of
>development you find yourself in. Good day.
>
>cheers
>
>-=K=-
>
>Rule #3: Faith can move mountains. Your aeroplane cannot.
>
alan staats
www.flightleveldesign.com
Morgans
> Bull, pure unmitigated bull. The preliminary reports are up on the
> NTSB site. Nobody was 'seeking details of things that should be
> private'. There is NOTHING private about this information.
Strange, altough I have not looked again since I got back, the wen, (or
thurs) cessna crash off the end of 9 was not up on it.
Do us a favor. Until you have something to CONTRIBUTE, bug off.
Jim in NC
Dave O
"Morgans" <jsmo...@twave.junk.net> wrote:
>Strange, altough I have not looked again since I got back, the wen, (or
>thurs) cessna crash off the end of 9 was not up on it.
You are picking nits.
>Do us a favor. Until you have something to CONTRIBUTE, bug off.
I do contribute here if you bother to look. And no, I will not bug
any more than I will remain silent in the face of online bullies or
their defenders. This isn't an exclusive club pal, so you can take
your rude invitation, fold it five ways and..., well you know the
rest.
Dave O