Derringer Aircraft Company LLC ?
Kitepilot
http://www.derringeraircraft.com/ (no porn):
It's sad when you have to make that remark...
Not that I will be buying one anytime soon, but wondering how I had never
heard of this airplane before.
Gee, so many things to learn...
Enrique A. Troconis
http://www.kitepilot.com/
http://www.kitepilot.com/viking
JerryK
museum condition. I have never seen the guy fly the plane, but it sure
looks like fun.
"Kitepilot" <kite...@DONTSPAMMEkitepilot.com> wrote in message
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Ron Wanttaja
> Has anybody heard of this people before?
> http://www.derringeraircraft.com/
>
> Not that I will be buying one anytime soon, but wondering how I had never
> heard of this airplane before.
> Gee, so many things to learn...
Like the History section of the site says, it's been around for about
thirty years. Used to be the Wing Derringer. Caught a lot of attention
back then, but I don't think the market was really there. With the
engines being the most expensive single portion of an aircraft, it's
kind of a waste to have two engines for a two seater (HF's Lancer
excepted :-).
Ron Wanttaja
r...@wanttaja.com
Mark S. Jennings
2-seat very light twin. I recall that the guy who designed the Cherokee was
involved in the design. A handful were produced (3?) and then they ran out
of money.
I'd surmise that this web site is for the company holds the type certificate
and is making some kind of stab at production again. I haven't heard
anything in the press, so they probably are just gauging interest.
The plane was supposedly very sexy and fun, although the market for a
2-place twin is small.
- Mark
Don Tuite
The Wing Derringer was developed at TOA (Torrance, now Zamperelli),
circa 1968, when I was getting primary training there. The Cook
Challenger[1] was being developed there around the same time. As I
recall, both planes had problems with the final phases of flight
testing. Two Challengers (unlucky name) crashed into Catalina Channel
during aft-CG spin tests, the second crash killing the test pilot when
the flat-spinning plane flew into his chute. I think there were one
or more crashes of the prototype Derringer, but memory is a little
rusty on that one. Up unil the project was abandoned, the Derringer
had a good PR effort; I recall a nice cover story in _Flying_.
Don
[1] Unlike the Derringer, the Challenger was an "everymans" airplane.
It looked just like a Cherokee, except for full-length leading-edge
slats that deployed automatically (bungee-powered) at low airspeeds.
In a pinch, it was supposed to mush into the ground with no more
kinetic energy than a parachute; sort of the Cirrus of its day.
>
Bob Gardner
Bob Gardner
"Kitepilot" <kite...@DONTSPAMMEkitepilot.com> wrote in message
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Northwest School of Aviation
fly the one that was in all the magazines (N644W) while I was at the Oshkosh
flyin in 1981. It had some nice amenities, and the one that I liked in
particular was the inflatable air seal around the canopy. After closing and
latching the canopy you would activate an air pump that inflated the seal
for a very quiet interior.
Performance was good because of the power to weight ratio. Being a two
place twin made it pretty light not having to carry around that extra
length. Single engine performance was good with a low Vmc and blue line. I
don't recall the exact numbers but I remember that it was better than the
Seminole and Duchess. The Cougar that was the other of the "little three"
was best with no Vmc as it would stall before turning.
All in all, a delightful bird to fly. I think that it's most noteworthy
accomplishment was that Ernest Gann had one for a while.
Dave Wheeler
www.NorthwestSchoolofAviation.com
--
"Don Tuite" <don_...@hotlink.com> wrote in message
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Dave Hyde
> Has anybody heard of this people before?
> http://www.derringeraircraft.com/
Others have covered the history of the design.
The guy who's trying to resurrect it is Sean Roberts,
the founder of the National Test Pilot School in Mojave.
I wish him luck.
Dave 'Dove bar' Hyde
na...@brick.net
David Munday
>
> > Has anybody heard of this people before?
> > http://www.derringeraircraft.com/
Very nice. I want one.
There's something wrong with the price and availability page though.
"If you have to ask..."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
David E. Munday E-mail: mun...@engr.uky.edu
Dept. of Mechanical Engineering Web: http://www.engr.uky.edu/~munday
521 CRMS Building Voice: +1 (859) 257-3263
University of Kentucky FAX: +1 (859) 257-3304
Lexington, KY 40506-0108 Office: 202 D. V. Terrell Bldg.
JDupre5762
>2-place twin is small.
George Wing was the designer of a particular type of specialty fastener used in
aviation though I can't remember which one. He surmised that since most twin
engined planes were usually flown with not more than two people on board a two
seat twin could be built more cheaply than a four seater. Then he ran into
that place where perception is more important than reality. People simply
expected a twin to have a minimum of four seats even if most owners rarely used
all of them. There were simply too few people who accepted the logic of the
design.
John Dupre'
Highflyer
The aircraft was designed some years ago by John Thorp. It was produced
by the Wing Aircraft Company as the Derringer. They made just a few
before they went out of business. The design and type certificate have
apparently been revived.
It is an absolutely delightful small twin, designed as a two place side
by side aircraft with ample baggage space. It was intended for business
transportation for businessmen who were competent to do their own flying
and didn't need a large expensive airplane for their transportation but
wanted the assurance of two engines for IFR flight.
I would love to own one, and came very near offering to trade the Red
Lady for one a couple of years ago. One came on the market down in
Florida. Then I decided I would rather have the Red Lady! :-)
--
Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Paul Sengupta
of me remember...
Bob Gardner wrote in message ...
Orval Fairbairn
jdupr...@aol.com (JDupre5762) wrote:
Another problem the Derringer had was corrosion. It seems that, after
the acid etch treatment prior to bonding, someone forgot to neutralize
the acids properly. The result was corrosion at the bond lines.
Apparently there are a couple of Derringer fuselages now serving as
planters somewhere in the California Central Valley.
Dan Thomas
> >The plane was supposedly very sexy and fun, although the market for a
> >2-place twin is small.
>
> George Wing was the designer of a particular type of specialty fastener used in aviation though I can't remember which one
Thw Wing nut? <g>
Dan
BD5ER
>the acid etch treatment prior to bonding, someone forgot to neutralize
>the acids properly. The result was corrosion at the bond lines.
>Apparently there are a couple of Derringer fuselages now serving as
>planters somewhere in the California Central Valley.
I'm kind of interested in structural aluminum bonding and would like to
know more. Do you know what kind of acid etch they used or any more details of
the bonding process? IIRC Mr. Wing was a dentist and got the idea to bond
together the originals from his dentistry experiences and his planes were some
of the first to use bonded aluminum.
There has been a great deal of advancment in aluminum bonding technology
since then and if the current company has adopted modern practices (which I'm
sure they have) the kind of corrosion you describe should not be a problem.
Orval Fairbairn
bd...@aol.comQQQ (BD5ER) wrote:
Unfortunately, I do not know what the processes were, only that they
had a major corrosion problem with some of the planes. I would think
that modern techniques would have solved that problem.
Also, I seem to recall that the performance wasn't as good as hoped for
-- something like 200 Kt., but that the plane is relly nice to fly.
Ryan Young
I don't recall them having a bonded fuselage, generally aluminum bonding in
that time was more common in wings (AA-1, Beech Musketeer), primarily for
skins to ribs, and was pretty well developed by the time the Derringer went
into limited production. Most structural applications used heat set epoxies
on etched and specially anodized parts - see the appendix to Andy Marshall's
Composite Basics book for a good discussion, although that article refers to
room temperature cure adhesives.
I don't know if George Wing was the fastener guy, or the money guy or what,
but Hi-Shear fasteners held the type certificate for at least a while, and
they had more money than God at the time. Swaged rivets were replacing
driven rivets, Douglas was pumping out DC-9s and -10s at a rapid clip,
Lockheed was building L-1011s, Northrup was making F-5's and fuselage
sections for 747's - the LA basin was hoping with factories using a metric
buttload of Hi-Shears every day, two shifts.
John Thorp was a consultant on the design.
Highflyer
As I recall one of the different and exciting things about the Derringer
was the extensive use of chemical milling on the skins. I recall seeing
one at an airport I was at once. It landed for fuel. My memory,
barring a "senior moment" tells me the pilot that day was John Thorp.
When you look at the airplane, John's hand in the design is very
evident.
Michael
> engined planes were usually flown with not more than two people on board a two
> seat twin could be built more cheaply than a four seater. Then he ran into
> that place where perception is more important than reality. People simply
> expected a twin to have a minimum of four seats even if most owners rarely used
> all of them. There were simply too few people who accepted the logic of the
> design.
Actually, the problem was that the plane simply came out too expensive
for not enough performance. It's powered by a pair of O-360's and
doesn't quite make 200 kts. At the time it was built (1970's) you
could buy a five year old Twin Comanche quite cheaply, and if you were
willing to upgrade it with the Miller STC to IO-360's, you would have
the same speed for less initial investment and the same operating
cost, and have two more seats. I suspect most people quickly figured
out which was cheaper.
Then there was the corrosion problem. Derringers had some corrosion
issues due to the bonding methods used. At the same time, Twin
Comanches were conventionally riveted with every part chromated, which
made them essentially lifetime airframes (or so people thought then).
Bottom line, it's a nice concept and now that the newest Twin Comanche
you can buy is over 30 years old, making new ones may make sense.
Back then, it was simply not competitive.
Michael