Safety and Hot Wire Foam Cutting
flee...@comcast.net
and shaping polystyrene foam. My question is whether the fumes and
smoke from doing such carving are a safety/health hazard? Any
guidelines for using such a tool safely?
Thanks.
-Fleemo
MikeR
<flee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1109112353....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
YES! (Duh)
>Any guidelines for using such a tool safely?
Don't snort the fumes. Don't touch the hot parts.
You're welcome.
Dude
"MikeR" <Mi...@redman.com> wrote in message
news:111nlcl...@corp.supernews.com...
Welcome to Usenet, Fleemo!
Minus the 'tude, he is about right. I haven't seen or heard anything about
using a respirator to cut foam. Of course, they used to not worry about
asbestos either. If you are worried, use a respirator. You might as well
own a good one if you are going to be serious about building planes.
Jean-Paul Roy
Jean-Paul
"Dude" <du...@dude.com> wrote in message
news:yn0Td.37081$cW2....@fe2.texas.rr.com...
flee...@comcast.net
Thanks Dude, I appreciate the welcome.
> Minus the 'tude, he is about right. I haven't seen or heard anything
about
> using a respirator to cut foam. Of course, they used to not worry
about
> asbestos either. If you are worried, use a respirator. You might as
well
> own a good one if you are going to be serious about building planes.
I realize polysterene smoke is probably not something you want to
breathe in like the bouquet of a fine wine, but I was looking for input
on specifically how toxic it is and what steps need to be taken when
carving foam with a hot wire. Is working in a well-ventilated room
enough of a safety precaution, or is a respirator required?
>Where can I find a hot wire cutting tool?<
Jean-Paul, check out http://www.HotWireFoamFactory.com
-Fleemo
W P Dixon
Your best bet is to get a MSDS on the product you intend on hot cutting. The
product maker will send you one if you ask for it, and alot of them can be
viewed on different companies websites. The sheet will tell you what kinds
of protection you need, and what dangerous chemicals are involved, the
dangers of the product and will even tell you if your children will be born
with a arm sticking out of their forehead. Read the MSDS!
Just for safety sake, always wear a respirator when doing anything like
that. Make sure it is a proper respirator, remember a mask to keep wood dust
out of your lungs will not keep chemicals out! Make sure you have good
ventilation, and a fresh air system would be really nice.
Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech
Dude
<flee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1109178452.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Anyone telling you its safe is walking on thin ice. No one really knows, do
they?
I would not worry about it if I was going to build a plane or two. If I
were going to do it for a living, I would wear protection.
Ed Sullivan
As I recall, urethane foam is toxic and shouldn't be hot wire cut. You
can make a cutter with an electric train transformer and stainless
wire on a bow type device. We made one, but it has been a couple of
hundred years ago.
Ed Sullivan
fredf...@spamcop.net
Yes. Urethane foam releases cyanide gas when heated. If you use
urethane in your plane and catch on fire the release of cyanide is
either a problem or a feature depending on whether or not your
burns are survivable.
Hot-wiring of polystyrene should be done in a well-ventilated
room while wearing a respirator. The respirator protects you
while cutting, the ventilation protects you after you remove
the respirator. You should should 'organic vapor' cartridges.
Be careful where you set teh hot wire down while it is still hot.
Have fun.
--
FF
Rich S.
news:1109178452.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I realize polysterene smoke is probably not something you want to
> breathe in like the bouquet of a fine wine, but I was looking for input
> on specifically how toxic it is and what steps need to be taken when
> carving foam with a hot wire. Is working in a well-ventilated room
> enough of a safety precaution, or is a respirator required?
There is foam - and then there is foam. Polystyrene foam smoke ain't bad,
but polyurethane foam smoke will give you a dirt nap. Go to
http://www.info-central.org/construction_hotwire.shtml for a good primer on
building a cutter and using it. Most modelers build their own cutter for a
couple of bucks and use a 12 volt power supply. Even a battery charger will
work.
Rich S.
Morgans
"W P Dixon" <paddyd...@bridgenettn.com> wrote
> Just for safety sake, always wear a respirator when doing anything
like
> that. Make sure it is a proper respirator, remember a mask to keep wood
dust
> out of your lungs will not keep chemicals out! Make sure you have good
> ventilation, and a fresh air system would be really nice.
>
> Patrick
Unless you can show evidence to contradict this, I say phooey! Fresh air
system? You gotta be kidding!
OP, work in a well ventilated area. Set up with a fan behind you, blowing
the fumes away from you. If you see smoke rising, don't stick your nose in
it. Nuff said.
--
Jim in NC
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Good ventilation helps too.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Dude
>>
>>
> Good ventilation helps too.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Without a doubt, that is a must.
W P Dixon
use whatever then by all means don't!
But myself I would rather be safe than sorry. As for proof , GET THE MSDS!
See what it says. I have not read it but I am sure it can not be to good for
ya! Have not seen to many man made chemicals that were.
Patrick
"Morgans" <jsmo...@chJUarNKer.net> wrote in message
news:7g6Td.22144$X_6....@fe06.lga...
Morgans
"W P Dixon" <paddyd...@bridgenettn.com> wrote in message
news:GP6Td.23$Af7.6...@news.sisna.com...
> In case you did not notice I said for safety sake Jim, if you do not wish
to
> use whatever then by all means don't!
> But myself I would rather be safe than sorry. As for proof , GET THE MSDS!
> See what it says. I have not read it but I am sure it can not be to good
for
> ya! Have not seen to many man made chemicals that were.
>
> Patrick
Like others have said, polystyrene, no big deal; polyurethane foam, very
bad.
No need to read the MSDS, I have already done the research, long ago.
--
Jim in NC
W P Dixon
> No need to read the MSDS, I have already done the research, long ago.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>recheck those MSDS sheets. Info has been known to change on them as new
>info is gathered.
Patrick
fredf...@spamcop.net
Over at Wick's they say their polystyrene foam has a fire-retardant
added. They don't say what and it would be ironic if the retardant
increased the toxicity of the fumes when hot-wiring but I suppose
that is a possibility.
Long ago, said foam did not contain a fire-retardant additive.
--
FF
Blueskies
http://www.dansworkshop.com/Hot%20wire%20foam%20cutting.shtml
http://hotwirefoamfactory.com/products/customer/home.php
http://www.foamcutter.pl/Megaplot.htm
Polystyrene...no problem.
Polyurethane...bad
<flee...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:1109112353....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Jean-Paul Roy
<flee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1109178452.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Stealth Pilot
I have to agree with you jim. hot wire cutting of white bead
polystyrene is a no brainer. dont stick your nose in the fumes
(methylene chloride) and cease if you have a headache coming on.
no need for respirators, just do it with a fan or a gentle breeze
around.
my 20 year old wire is 0.5mm dia nicrome and 34 inches long. it is
driven by 12 volts from a battery charger (pulsed DC) and draws about
3 amps.
I use a miniature pulley like bobbin at each end of the bow and
tension one end with a spring to allow thermal expansion.
most nicrome wire breaks at any sharp kink in the attachment.
the nicrome is from an old style coiled immersion jug element.
for cutting the fine grained blue foam a 12 volt battery with
continuous DC will stop an annoying 50 hertz hum from scalloping the
surface. (only ever noticed it in blue foam)
it is easy stuff. as an aeromodeller.
Stealth (240 volts, 50 hz local power) Pilot
Australia
Stealth Pilot
<jsmo...@chJUarNKer.net> wrote:
>
>"W P Dixon" <paddyd...@bridgenettn.com> wrote in message
>news:GP6Td.23$Af7.6...@news.sisna.com...
>> In case you did not notice I said for safety sake Jim, if you do not wish
>to
>> use whatever then by all means don't!
>> But myself I would rather be safe than sorry. As for proof , GET THE MSDS!
>> See what it says. I have not read it but I am sure it can not be to good
>for
>> ya! Have not seen to many man made chemicals that were.
>>
>> Patrick
>
>Like others have said, polystyrene, no big deal;
>polyurethane foam, very bad.
polyurethane foam breaks down into phosgene gas under the heat of a
hotwire. dont hotwire it. use a knife and surform planer, or
sandpaper.
>
(for gawds sake you guys give the neophytes actual information. tell
them what is released so that they can be wise to the facts, not the
hearsay)
Stealth Pilot
W P Dixon
> (for gawds sake you guys give the neophytes actual information. tell
> them what is released so that they can be wise to the facts, not the
> hearsay)
> Stealth Pilot
Exactly Stealth Pilot!
The MSDS has all the info that one could need in order to make the proper
decision as to what he should wear for his protection or not,...and then of
course it will still be his/her decision as to if they want to follow what
the MSDS says. But the fact is , the MSDS has all that info, and it is not
guessing. So that is why my advice was to get the MSDS in the first place,
instead of opinions. My personal preference is I do not chance any of those
chemicals..I protect myself. To each his own.
Patrick
flybynightkarmarepair
this instance, misplaced.
The MSDS only covers the material when used as intended. The intended
use of polystyrene foam is building insulation. The MSDS is COMPLETELY
SILENT on precautions for hot wiring it, although some common sense
precautions can be inferred.
http://www.falconfoam.com/technical_data/msds.asp
Given the many sites devoted to hot wiring polystyrene foam, a common
practice in modeling for about 45 YEARS, I think we can rely on the
collective wisdom of the users - just this once.
W P Dixon
point. But as I said to each his own and shall leave it at that.
Patrick
PS Hi Ryan how are ya!?
"flybynightkarmarepair" <ryo...@lmi.net> wrote in message
news:1109266627....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
fredf...@spamcop.net
Stealth Pilot wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:00:28 -0500, "Morgans"
> <jsmo...@chJUarNKer.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Like others have said, polystyrene, no big deal;
>
> >polyurethane foam, very bad.
>
> polyurethane foam breaks down into phosgene gas under the heat of a
> hotwire. dont hotwire it. use a knife and surform planer, or
> sandpaper.
> >
>
> (for gawds sake you guys give the neophytes actual information. tell
> them what is released so that they can be wise to the facts, not the
> hearsay)
>
Speaking of facts, I thought it was cyanide not phosgene. I
remember that it is typical for victims of airline crashes who
survived the impact but succombed to smoke inhalation to have
cyanide in their bodies from the burning of the urethane foam
seat cushions. Urethane is fire resistant up to a point,
but when it goes, it really goes-- and it off gasses befor
it begins to burn per se.
--
FF
Ernest Christley
>
> polyurethane foam breaks down into phosgene gas under the heat of a
> hotwire. dont hotwire it. use a knife and surform planer, or
> sandpaper.
>
>
> (for gawds sake you guys give the neophytes actual information. tell
> them what is released so that they can be wise to the facts, not the
> hearsay)
> Stealth Pilot
And you think that you've done that? Phosgene gas? Is that the gas that
comes from the jeans of queer guys with a lisp after they fawt.
I took college chemistry, but that means absolutely nothing to me. Big
technical words are not information.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Ignoring your filth I will answer thusly: dictionaries are our friends;
phos•gene (fos‚jŽn, foz‚-) n.a poisonous, colorless, very volatile
liquid or suffocating gas, COCl2, used as a chemical-warfare compound.
[1805–15; < Gk phôs light (contr. of pháos) + -gen s -GEN]
Jim Carriere
Come on, your sarcasm isn't very constructive. Go ahead and google
phosgene if you've never heard of it.
Stealth Pilot gave all of the relevant information with the words
"don't hotwire it" and "phosgene gas." You probably didn't learn
about phosgene in college chemistry, but you might have in high
school history or current events. It's one of the poison gases used
in the trenches in WWI, and by Iraq against Iran in the 1980s.
fredf...@spamcop.net
Jim Carriere wrote:
>
> ...
>
> Stealth Pilot gave all of the relevant information with the words
> "don't hotwire it" and "phosgene gas." You probably didn't learn
> about phosgene in college chemistry, but you might have in high
> school history or current events. It's one of the poison gases used
> in the trenches in WWI, and by Iraq against Iran in the 1980s.
It is (or was) also a common byproduct of some paint manufacturing.
I wonder if Phosgene produces cyanide when metabolized because I
am quite sure that I've read about cyanide poising being the
problem with hot urethane from multiple sources.
--
FF
Roger
<echri...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>Stealth Pilot wrote:
>
>>
>> polyurethane foam breaks down into phosgene gas under the heat of a
>> hotwire. dont hotwire it. use a knife and surform planer, or
>> sandpaper.
OK, so who uses polyurethane foam? The blue stuff I see hot wired is
polystyrene foam (Styrofoam (TM)) It gives off styrene which is not
healthy, but you have to get the wire way hotter than necessary to
cause it to break down into the nasty stuff.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Stealth Pilot
<Delete-Invalli...@tm.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 02:13:30 GMT, Ernest Christley
><echri...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> polyurethane foam breaks down into phosgene gas under the heat of a
>>> hotwire. dont hotwire it. use a knife and surform planer, or
>>> sandpaper.
>
>OK, so who uses polyurethane foam? The blue stuff I see hot wired is
>polystyrene foam (Styrofoam (TM)) It gives off styrene which is not
>healthy, but you have to get the wire way hotter than necessary to
>cause it to break down into the nasty stuff.
>
>Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>www.rogerhalstead.com
>
polystyrene just gives off the expander gas trapped within each bead.
polyurethane is/was specified in mouldless construction for the more
structural areas of an aircraft.
afaik polystyrene doesnt break down in the way ascribed to
polyurethane foams.
Stealth Pilot
fredf...@spamcop.net
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired wrote:
> ...
>
> phos·gene (fos,jŽn, foz,-) n.a poisonous, colorless, very
volatile
> liquid or suffocating gas, COCl2, used as a chemical-warfare
compound.
> [1805-15; < Gk phôs light (contr. of pháos) + -gen s -GEN]
>
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Therfore you cannot get phosgene from hot-wiring polyurethane
since there is no Clorine in urethane (C3H7NO2).
It helps to look up the right thing:
http://www.asiapacific.noveoninc.com/html/msds/tpu/58238.htm
Hazardous Decomposition Products
Volatiles may be evolved during overheating, combustion,
ormdecomposition. These potential decomposition gases
have not been fullymdetermined but may include CO, CO2,
and small amounts of hydrogen CYANIDE,
oxides of nitrogen, hydrocarbons, isocyanates, water vapor
and/or combinations of the previous, and smoke. ...
(emphasis mine.)
http://electriccoop.apogee.net/res/reinure.asp
Urethane Insulation
Urethane insulation is made of plastic polymers and contains 80
to 90 percent closed cells containing refrigerant gas rather
than air. It is one of the most effective insulators, but is
flammable. When it burns it emits cyanide gas and is therefore
banned in some areas of the country.
(Note 'flammible' may be inappropriate as the autoignition
temperature for Urethane foams is well above the flashpoint
threshold for flammible _liquids_. 'Combustible' may be the
proper term but I don't know if those terms are used the same
way for solids as for liquids.)
Whereas phsogene kills you slowly cyanide is quite fast.
--
FF
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
fredf...@spamcop.net
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired wrote:
>
> I never said you could. I was answering a rather crude question.
>
Duly noted.
--
FF