Display Aircraft Pilots Have to Pay to Get into Copperstate?
Bruce A. Frank
Had a run-in with ATC again, right.
--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8L Engine and V-6 STOL
BAF...@worldnet.att.net Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
*---------------------------**----*
\(-o-)/ AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.
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O O
as-...@ix.netcom.com
Badwater Bill wrote:
> When he signs his name
> with GS-12 after it am I supposed to be impressed and go away. A
> GS-12 is a pion in the grand scheme of the goverment, and so is a
> GS-15 by the way! Jesus! Who put this guy in charge?
>
> Badwater Bill
Now, Bill, all those years of nuclear testing must have gotten to you.
The correct spelling is PEON, not pion. Pion sounds as if it is related
to "pious", which indeed that fellow's Email seems to be related to as
well. And pious is actually a little too close to pompous as far as I am
concerned, which also seems to be related to the Email. Now PEON, as it
were, implies a certain physical action that might be appropriate in
this case, for instance "Pee on their event". This is of course for the
purpose of illustrating the correct pronunciation of the word peon,
nothing else at all, I assure you.
As for the concept of paying for admission to their event, I have an
opinion (thanks for asking) based on my numerous involvements with
charitable and other public events similar to airshows. The main
attraction to any show is always either paid or welcomed as the guest of
the event. Whatever makes an event (whether it's a group of aging
scumbag heroin addicted musicians, a couple of light in their loafers
magicians wearing eyeliner in Vegas, or just a group of airplane
builders and pilots with exotic airplanes) THAT IS THE SHOW. All the
wonderful and heartfelt volunteer effort in the world cannot carry a
show without the main attraction. Likewise, the show cannot happen
without the staff, paid or volunteer, and so the staff gets in free too.
Oops, the fellow did say that the volunteers paid for their own
admission just like the pilots were supposed to, didn't he?
Bill Berle
wearing a Nomex suit and a Napalm tie
Badwater Bill
I wrote a short note to the Copperstate webpage asking why they were
charging pilots who flew display aircraft to get into Copperstate when
we are the show. This is what I got today and I responded to it with
a followup email. These people must think their fly-in is the
greatest thing sinced bottled water or something. I'm thinking I'm
not even going this year. It's always hot and miserable, there's no
airshow and the whole show is walking around and looking at airplanes
that the owners have spent hundreds of dollars to bring there plus
their gate-fee. Here's the email I got.
> Hasson R GS-12 355LG/AFETS wrote:
>
> ----------
>
> To: 'Bill Badwater'
> Subject: COPPERSTATE
>
>
>
> Bill,
> At this time we are not in a financial position to take the monetary
> loss. In addition, our gate fees are very reasonable. Our volunteers
> put in a tremendous number of hours each year planning and executing the
> COPPERSTATE. They also travel to meetings from all over the state each
> month at their expense. In addition to my travel expenses, I stay in
> Phoenix motels for 10 days during the fly-in. I have never figured it
> up but it is definitely cheaper for me to fly to Oshkosh or Sun 'n Fun
> than to work at our event. We do it because we love it, not because we
> get in free!!!!!
> Perhaps one day we can afford to do as you suggest. In the mean time, we
> have to pay the bills.
> Bob Hasson GS-12 355LG/AFETS
Bob: It's not that I can't afford to pay to get in. After all, I do
buy my own gas to even fly there. What gripes many of us is that to a
large degree, WE ARE THE SHOW with our homebuilts that we have spent
many years building and paying many tens of thousands of dollars for.
I went to the SFO EAA fly-in last Saturday at Hayward. I spent a few
hundred bucks getting there and staying in motels but the show was
FREE to pilots that brought display aircraft. They even had an
elaborate airshow which was FREE to us. They gave us VIP passes and
reduced prices on food and drinks and had a nice tent for us to sit in
and watch the airshow. I had a much better time there than I have
ever had at Copperstate. Maybe I should just stay home from your
event this year. The $7 is insignificant from an monetary point of
view. It just pisses me off to pay it because I think it's being
cheap on your part. My plans were to go to Copperstate for 3 days and
3 nights. That's about $500 bucks in fuel, food and gas no matter how
you slice it. You people grind another $7 bucks a day out of all of
us who make your show. It's just the principle that pisses me off.
I'm not cheap either, but I'd rather buy $100 bucks worth of beer and
give it away to my friends each day than pay your 7 buck admission fee
to stand in the heat and not even see a good airshow. I think your
fly-in is actually quite crumby and lacks entertainment. The Hayward
chapter has the right Idea! We had a great time there this last
weekend.
Bill Phillips GS-15 US Dept. of Energy (retired)
P.S. And it's Badwater Bill, not Bill Badwater
> End of email
Now! I don't give a damn if Bob wants to spend 10 nights in a motel at
his own expense or how many volunters there are to make Copperstate
go. What does that have to do with ME? And, I don't care if people
roar all over the place to attend meetings for the event at their own
expense. Maybe they don't have a life doing anything else. To top it
off, I don't care if Bob is a GS-12. That's the most pompous thing
I've seen on an email signature in years. I had GS-13's,14's and
Full Colonels working for me as technicians in the nuclear weapons
testing program, let alone a pittly little 12. When he signs his name
Dave Parrish
BWB... have you been taking those "Bitter" pills again???
----------> Dave (not a GS anything OR retired! Though I wanna be...)
Bob Moore
In article <340cb061...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, billphil*nospam*@ix.netcom.com (Badwater Bill) wrote:
>
>I wrote a short note to the Copperstate webpage asking why they were
>charging pilots who flew display aircraft to get into Copperstate when
>we are the show.
Bill,
Amen to your feelings about "just what IS the show anyhow"?
I no longer take my homebuilt to SnF or OSH for the same
reason.
Bob Moore
Badwater Bill
Yeah Dave! I've got a call into my doctor however. I think I need to
get on Zoloft, Prozac, or maybe Thorazine! I might come in here in a
week or two and say,
"Hi all. What a beautiful day. Gee I love people. How is everyone
else's day going? La-de-da-de-da!" I might even send Copperstate a
big donation since I feel sorry for them having to host a display in
such searing heat, and milk 7 bucks a day out of the people who make
their show! Hell I can fly into that field anytime and park for free,
all day long. But the EAA invites us all down for a weekend and it
costs us! Where's my doctor's number. Better yet, Gar, will you send
me some of those Doggy-Downers with the ant poison in them before by
bloodpressure hits 200/150.
Badwater Bill GS-Zero 6969/BWB
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
I have a different take on the subject of Copperstate charging pilots
of "display" aircraft. Badwater says that "we are the show". The
Copperstate people say that they cannot afford to let display aircraft
or any other aircraft in free.
Now we can either look at these airshows as a circus where we are the
performers, or as a place to fly in to meet other pilots and see other
aircraft. If Copperstate is not making enough money from the public to
cover costs then it is clearly not the first, so it must be the second.
It seems completely reasonable for a flyin to charge a moderate fee ($7!)
for the people attending. These are people attending because they want to
go to a fly-in, not because they think they are performers for a crowd!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Rauchfuss (Smokefoot) "I never knew I could change my life,
like the artist paints his dreams on
a canvas" - Minor Detail
John R. Johnson
When I take my airplane to a flyin it costs me a great deal to go.
Probably an average of at least $200.00. It really aggravates me when
they charge me admission on top of than and put my aircraft on display
so I have to stand around and protect it. I don't mind paying a reasonable
camping fee. The last flyin I went to, last weekend, they did charge a
camping fee of $25.00 for five days of camping. The provide hot showers,
bathrooms, and laundry facilitys. They also catered meals on the field
so I didn't have to finagle a ride to town to eat.
For a five day national fly in I spent $187 for fuel, $10.00 for oil,
$25.00 for camping and bought $100 worth of stuff at the fly market.
A parking fee for my airplane add insult to injury.
I solve the problem and avoid all fly ins where I get charged to attend.
John
Jim Root
Ed Sullivan wrote:
>
> I have seen a slow demise of great fly-ins such as Merced who did not charge
> their exhibitors.
> The general public has shown less interest in our type of fly-ins in later
> years, so they can not be depended upon for as great a share of the
> operating cost (which can be considerable).
Say it ain't so! I had the privilege to attend the Merced show a few
years ago while working in Cal. It was a Great Show! I was only able to
be there for one day but could have spend several just drooling on the
planes (Oh! did I type that out load?) Drooling by the planes, yeah
that's it, by the planes. I'm sorry to hear that it dying or dead as the
case may be.
:{) Jim
--
mailto:jar...@earthlink.net
If anyone cares I'm located about 20 miles north of Salt Lake City,
about 2 miles east of the Great Salt Lake. (On a bad day you can smell
it from here! ;{))
Badwater Bill
On 4 Sep 1997 22:01:26 GMT, "Ed Sullivan" <e...@qnis.net> wrote:
>
>I hope most of you are still willing to pay a little to enjoy gatherings of
>endangered species such as ours.
>
>Ed Sullivan and the long suffering Jungster II, "Miss Ely".
Dear Ed: I think you miss the point. Look at John Johnson's post
above. WE DO spend more than the pocket change they rip from us on a
daily basis. When I go to a fly-in and meet my buddies, it costs
fuel, food, motels etc. I never get off with less than a few hundred
bucks. And after this expense to go to an airport that would normally
be free , I am greeted by some mooch who wants another $7 bucks.
It's not the money, it's the principle. The $7 bucks means nothing
monetarily to me. It's simply the principle.
I respect your point of view but I strongly disagree.
Badwater Bill
vernon franklin
Why don' we foward the negative mail to Copperstate so the will have to
delete it on their hard drives. You know they
wouldn't take the time to read but a few. But they might get the point.
when we had the 1st annual Phoenix Air Race ( I forgot what the original
name was) it's kind of like the Reno Air Races.
The 1st year was great. Real Racing Aircraft. But the next year We found
out the race pilots didn't get paid enough to maintain the race planes. We
even lost a Corsair due to an oil fire. It crashed and that was terrible.
But what happened next year was unreal. The air race was to be a staged
event. Preplaned races with the winner of the race already determined. The
was fraud I thought. This was not a race but an airshow!! It was still fun
but we came to see a race.
John R. Johnson wrote in article ...
>On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Badwater Bill wrote:
><snip>
>> ever had at Copperstate. Maybe I should just stay home from your
>> event this year. The $7 is insignificant from an monetary point of
>> view. It just pisses me off to pay it because I think it's being
>> cheap on your part. My plans were to go to Copperstate for 3 days and
>> 3 nights. That's about $500 bucks in fuel, food and gas no matter how
>> you slice it. You people grind another $7 bucks a day out of all of
>> us who make your show. It's just the principle that pisses me off.
>> I'm not cheap either, but I'd rather buy $100 bucks worth of beer and
>> give it away to my friends each day than pay your 7 buck admission fee
>> to stand in the heat and not even see a good airshow. I think your
>> fly-in is actually quite crummy and lacks entertainment. The Hayward
>> chapter has the right Idea! We had a great time there this last
>> weekend.
>
>Go get 'em Badwater! Just for what it is worth guys, BWB DID spend
>$100 bucks to buy beer for everyone who attended the r.a.h. flyin in
>June. And we all had a blast. And we didn't charge ANYONE who flew
>in an admission or registration fee.
>
>I will admit that no one made any money of the fly in either. The only
>folks who showed a profit were the local motel where everyone stayed and
>the Pizza Place where Ray was flirting ( quite successfully ) with an
>exceptionally well endowed young waitress!
>
>John
>
EyeBLS
In article <34101d41....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
billphil*nospam*@ix.netcom.com (Badwater Bill) writes:
>It's not the money, it's the principle. The $7 bucks means nothing
>monetarily to me. It's simply the principle.
After reading this thread for the past few days I feel I must interject my
thoughts.
If a flyin needs the $7 from the homebuilt attendees (or thinks it does),
then you have the choice of attending and paying the $7 or not attending.
Comparing one flyin to another on the basis of admission fees and perks
just points out that there are differences. If the flyin is for the pilots
to see each others aircraft, have their aircraft be seen and for the pilots
to get together, then you are paying for a service.
On the other hand, if the whole purpose of the flyin is to get exhibits so
that the flyin makes money from non-pilot attendees, then charging the
attendees is crass. As long as the flyin is not making much of a profit of
you, why complain?
Eyeballs
almost a homebuilder
first flight within the month
I hope, I hope
Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
In article <34101d41....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
Badwater Bill <billphil*nospam*@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
:Dear Ed: I think you miss the point. Look at John Johnson's post
:above. WE DO spend more than the pocket change they rip from us on a
:daily basis. When I go to a fly-in and meet my buddies, it costs
:fuel, food, motels etc. I never get off with less than a few hundred
:bucks. And after this expense to go to an airport that would normally
:be free , I am greeted by some mooch who wants another $7 bucks.
I guess I don't understand your point. The fly-in doesn't see one red
cent from the fuel, food or motels (except maybe some money from on-field
food vendors). How is any of this going to keep them from going broke
putting on a fly-in?
:It's not the money, it's the principle. The $7 bucks means nothing
:monetarily to me. It's simply the principle.
A fly-in is put together for the pilots and builders, so that is where
the money should come from. I feel that we are not performers but
participants.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Rauchfuss (Smokefoot) "I never knew I could change my life,
brau...@pcocd2.intel.com like the artist paints his dreams on
alan staats
"vernon franklin" <vfra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Why don' we foward the negative mail to Copperstate so the will have to
>delete it on their hard drives. You know they
>wouldn't take the time to read but a few. But they might get the point.
you may rest assured that the copperstate people are aware of this
thread, and all of the posts made on it, and there are most definitely
some on the staff who agree with many of the points made here,
particularly those regarding showplane attendance fees. but
understand that copperstate, like many regionals, is NOT the cash cow
that sun n fun or oshkosh is, so a decision to allow 4 or 5 or 6
hundred people in for free is a substantial financial loss, but
nevertheless is something i believe they will probably look closely
at in time.
in that vein, understand that the staff of copperstate literally work
thousands of hours prior to and during the show as volunteers, and
most of them, believe it or not, pay their way in just like everybody
else does.
the long and the short of it is this: you may chafe at paying to
bring your showplane to copperstate, and you may indeed have a
legitimate point. but the fact of the matter is that copperstate is a
lot more than the magnificent showplanes that attend. it is forums,
fly bys, airshows, young eagle flights, camaraderie, and most
importantly the opportunity to share your love of aviation with others
who feel as you do. i'm so poor i can hardly pay attention, but i
will gladly pony up the seven bucks, if only for the opportunity to
meet some of you.
staats
Ed Sullivan
You're right, Bill I'm afraid your buddy's post says it all.
Ed Sullivan
Gary Lee
I paid my last "fee" at Arlington two years ago, I agree with B.Bill, we
are the show! where would they be without any planes, the warbird people
know---they don't show if they don't get gas-hotel-food-etc.. There are
plenty of airshows/flyins that appreciate any flying machine, and most will
feed you free, give you some souvenirs, even some gas. There are lots of
people that feel the same way, these so called "big shows" have gotten way
out of hand, I for one will not participate.
alan staats <sta...@primenet.com> wrote in article
<5uq7fo$m...@nntp02.primenet.com>...
Jerry Springer
Gary Lee wrote:
>
> I paid my last "fee" at Arlington two years ago,
Actually I don't think $10 for a week at Arlington is to much,
after all I do assume you use the potties which are cleaned
every day and probably the showers.
Jerry Springer RV-6 N906GS First flight July 14, 1989 :-) Hillsboro, OR
jsf...@ix.netcom.com
Bill Robie
[...]
>It's not the money, it's the principle. The $7 bucks means nothing
>monetarily to me. It's simply the principle.
I had to smile when I saw this. My grandfather used to tell me, "When
someone says that it's not the money, it's the principal. . .it's the
money!"
Well, I guess that "Pop" was wrong in Bill's case, because I have a feeling
that he's the sort who'd spring $7 to buy a drink for someone he just met.
Still, I think that I'd have to agree with those who say that many of these
fly-ins (not all, but many) are drawing less walk-in paying customers than
they used to. They are slowly becoming pilot events, moreso than spectator
events.
It used to be that everyone in town would load up the kids and come
out to look at the nifty airplanes, paying a buck a two per head for the
pleasure of doing so. In those days, the promoters not only asked you
to fly in, they'd often feed you a couple of pancakes, a cup of coffee,
and fill up the plane's tank for the return trip. (And in those days you
could get a Big Mac for 35 cents, didn't have to rent an army of port-o-pots
for the spectators, didn't have to carry a zillion bucks worth of liability
insurance, etc., etc..)
Now the pilots are still "the performers", but they are also a large part of
the audience. I really would doubt that greed plays much of a role in
decisions such as this one. I think that it is just the pressures of being
able to pay the bills. It would be smart, however, for the promoters to
do a better job of selling this concept to the participants -- I'll bet that
they could bring in about as much by asking for a donation, or by having
a $5-a-ticket raffle for some gotta-have-it flying goody.
Bill Robie
Badwater Bill
On 6 Sep 1997 08:02:43 -0400, ro...@umbc.edu (Bill Robie) wrote:
>
>Now the pilots are still "the performers", but they are also a large part of
>the audience. I really would doubt that greed plays much of a role in
>decisions such as this one. I think that it is just the pressures of being
>able to pay the bills. It would be smart, however, for the promoters to
>do a better job of selling this concept to the participants -- I'll bet that
>they could bring in about as much by asking for a donation, or by having
>a $5-a-ticket raffle for some gotta-have-it flying goody.
>
>Bill Robie
>
Bill:
You make some very good points here. I would be more willing to make
a donation or buy a raffle ticket. And, you are right that the
promotion people should tell you what's going on and communicate what
the money is going for. Maybe the EAA and the people who put on
Copperstate don't want to do that because they could reveal something
we don't like? Bobby O'Ring Seals told me a couple days ago he
thinks that a good percentage of the money at Copperstate probably
goes into the EAA national coffers since it's a sanctioned regional
fly-in. He thinks this is the real reason they need to charge pilots
who fly in, i.e. to feed the head of the octopus.
What do all of you think about that?
BWB
Badwater Bill
Here's another letter forwarded to me. This letter was written to Bob
Hasson GS-12 concerning this thread. The author wants to remain
anonymous.
Sir:
I see that on the related internet newsgroups that you have been
taking a lot of heat concerning registration fees for participants. I
think that this position is worth reconsideration; that is if you have
retained some degree of autonomy from the big wigs in WI. I first
attended what has now become Copperstate a long time ago in Casa
Grande. There are still a few EAA (chapter) events which present a
class act. Notably at Fla-Bob and Hayward, CA. If your registration
fees were voluntary, you might be pleased with the response. In any
event, if you cannot survive through the vendor fees and the gate you
have a problem. I am happy to display my aircraft throughout the
country without expectations of any compensation, but PLEASE this is a
PUBLIC airport and I feel it is unreasonable to try to squeeze a few
extra bucks out of us when we fly in. In actuality we can get
together at any airport we choose at any time - for free! Don't kill
the goose
..............
Reprinted by Badwater Bill GS-zero
O-Ring Seals
Thanks for the cover Billy, but I will claim that one. BTW, I still
have not had a response from the adressee. We will still have a fine
time at Copperstate.
Bobby 'O-ring' Seals
Jim Root
Maybe we (I say we though I haven't owned a plane in about seven years
and haven't started building one yet) ought to just think of the $7 as
the fee to see everybody else's plane and you get to park YOUR plane for
free!
:{) Jim
It's and expensive sport even if you are the star!
Bruce A. Frank
> After happily taking the money for tickets and providing
> shuttle transportation to the event, the announcement was made that no
> transportation was available back to the various motels.
I don't understand how anyone can allow a operation to run like that.
That in itself could be enough to sour ones experience to the point of
not coming back again.
Ed Sullivan
Sounds like Bar talk, but then I tend to discount conspiracies. Please
don't involve Santa Claus, my faith is already sufficiently shaken.
EBS
Tamela R. Germano
As per the subject line, I would like to meet you to put a face to your
name and writing style. If you need a line truck for your war-bird or
racer, my '43 MB jeep and I could be forced into helping :-) If any of you
will be in town drop me a note.
Dino in Reno
John R. Johnson
On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Jim Root wrote:
>
> Maybe we (I say we though I haven't owned a plane in about seven years
> and haven't started building one yet) ought to just think of the $7 as
> the fee to see everybody else's plane and you get to park YOUR plane for
> free!
>
We can think of it any way we want. However, I seriously avoid taking
my airplane to any flyin where I am charged admission. If someone else
chooses to pay the admission for me, I will accept that. That has been
the case everytime I have flown to OshKosh. I don't recall ever paying
an admission when I flew to the EAA National Flyin when it was at
Rockford.
I have no problem filling my flyin schedule with as many flyins as I can
possibly make it to. In fact, there are always several I would LOVE to
attend, that I cannot make it to for one reason or another. Frequently,
there are multiple "tour-de-force" flyins scheduled for the same weekend.
For example, this June both the annual Waco flyin and picnic at Dauster
Field and the r.a.h. flyin at Pinckneyville were the same weekend. Ray
Jarvis did manage to make it to both, because he stopped at Dauster Field
on his way to Pinckneyville. Neither charged admission for aircraft
flying in, particularly for SHOW aircraft flying in.
Many flyins pay for fuel for selected aircraft. I have a REAL problem
for flyins that buy fuel for some show aircraft and charge admission for
other show aircraft.
John
John R. Johnson
On Sat, 6 Sep 1997, Jerry Springer wrote:
> Gary Lee wrote:
> >
> > I paid my last "fee" at Arlington two years ago,
> *snip*
> Actually I don't think $10 for a week at Arlington is to much,
> after all I do assume you use the potties which are cleaned
> every day and probably the showers.
>
charged an "admission" fee to gain access to my own airplane.
John
John R. Johnson
On 5 Sep 1997, Brian Rauchfuss - PCD wrote:
> In article <34101d41....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
> Badwater Bill <billphil*nospam*@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> :Dear Ed: I think you miss the point. Look at John Johnson's post
> :above. WE DO spend more than the pocket change they rip from us on a
> :daily basis. When I go to a fly-in and meet my buddies, it costs
> :fuel, food, motels etc. I never get off with less than a few hundred
> :bucks. And after this expense to go to an airport that would normally
> :be free , I am greeted by some mooch who wants another $7 bucks.
>
> I guess I don't understand your point. The fly-in doesn't see one red
> cent from the fuel, food or motels (except maybe some money from on-field
> food vendors). How is any of this going to keep them from going broke
> putting on a fly-in?
>
> :It's not the money, it's the principle. The $7 bucks means nothing
> :monetarily to me. It's simply the principle.
>
> A fly-in is put together for the pilots and builders, so that is where
> the money should come from. I feel that we are not performers but
> participants.
>
The cost of a flyin is not really very much. The r.a.h. flyin cost the
airport authority a total of $110.00 for porta-potties. The food caterers
provided the food on the airport all day, each day, at reasonable prices
and paid their expenses with their $5.00 for all the roast beef and brats
you could eat lunchs. Badwater Bill personally purchased ALL of the
beverages for ALL of the attendees for the entire weekend out of the
goodness of his heart. He is the kind of person who will happily buy
a drink for someone he has just met and he proved that in spades at the
r.a.h flyin. It did take some work to put on the flyin and to organize
everything and make all the arrangements. All of the publicity was
donated by the organizers and their volunteers.
We had a first rate flyin and we didn't have to charge anyone a registration
fee. We were going to charge the general public to raise enough to cover
the special arrangements for the weekend, but the cities picked it up as
part of their civic publicity budget.
There will never be an agreement on whether people should have to pay
admission for a flyin even though they provide a show plane for the show.
There will never be an agreement on whether volunteers should have to pay
admission even though they perform essential tasks for the flyin. All I
can say, is any flyin I organize will NOT charge show planes or volunteers
admission.
If you organize a flyin you can do whatever you want. However, do NOT be
surprised if some showplanes fail to attend. The flyin season is really
quite full, and those of us who fly unusual airplanes to flyins really
do have a great deal of choice. If some flyins decline in popularity
and lose money ( what do they spend the money on anyway? ) that is the
way it goes. The free market decides.
John
Carl A. Johansson
as-...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Badwater Bill wrote:
> > When he signs his name
> > with GS-12 after it am I supposed to be impressed and go away. A
> > GS-12 is a pion in the grand scheme of the goverment, and so is a
> > GS-15 by the way! Jesus! Who put this guy in charge?
> >
> > Badwater Bill
>
> Now, Bill, all those years of nuclear testing must have gotten to you.
> The correct spelling is PEON, not pion. Pion sounds as if it is related
> to "pious", which indeed that fellow's Email seems to be related to as
> well. And pious is actually a little too close to pompous as far as I am
> concerned, which also seems to be related to the Email. Now PEON, as it
> were, implies a certain physical action that might be appropriate in
> this case, for instance "Pee on their event". This is of course for the
> purpose of illustrating the correct pronunciation of the word peon,
> nothing else at all, I assure you.
>
> As for the concept of paying for admission to their event, I have an
> opinion (thanks for asking) based on my numerous involvements with
> charitable and other public events similar to airshows. The main
> attraction to any show is always either paid or welcomed as the guest of
> the event. Whatever makes an event (whether it's a group of aging
> scumbag heroin addicted musicians, a couple of light in their loafers
> magicians wearing eyeliner in Vegas, or just a group of airplane
> builders and pilots with exotic airplanes) THAT IS THE SHOW. All the
> wonderful and heartfelt volunteer effort in the world cannot carry a
> show without the main attraction. Likewise, the show cannot happen
> without the staff, paid or volunteer, and so the staff gets in free too.
> Oops, the fellow did say that the volunteers paid for their own
> admission just like the pilots were supposed to, didn't he?
>
> Bill Berle
> wearing a Nomex suit and a Napalm tie
Where in the world did you find a napalm tie??? I want one!!!
Carl Johansson
Ann Sweeney
Hi,
Merced does "charge" display pilots, but the charge is optional and called
a donation. Most people pay it, and those that don't are labeled as
cheapos by their peers (at least while I was within earshot!). It is
expensive to insure and equip such an event and the donation request
really is the way to go, imho. There have been years I have driven to
Merced, remember the year it rained?, paid the gate and then gone and put
in the registration donation just because i really love that fly-in.
Hayward, I *believe*, has finished in the red in and a small number of
private individuals have been generous enough to pick up the slack. It is
my understanding that they have been trying to get the event self
sufficient but it is harder than it looks. Not sure how they did this
year. It is also a wonderful fly-in and if they ask for an optional
donation in the future, I will pay it.
In the case of Copperstate, they'd make a lot more friends with the
donation angle. After reading the response from the "GS-12" guy, I'd be a
little turned off on the event. "Holier than thou" is a real downer to
most pilots and has driven me from a number of events. Hopefully this is
just a matter of bad judgement that will be rectified next time around.
Ann Sweeney
Champ 4364E
Miss Bigfeet
Ed Sullivan
As I recall the Merced Fly-in had a budget in excess of $20,000 in its
earlier years and with beer being sold the insurance went way up. That in
addition to airshow acts cost them a bundle. Apparently when they cut out
the airshow for a couple of years, while the pilots seemed to care less,
the public didn't come out.
If one spread say $5 over the number of showplanes in attendance,
particularly if the "stars" who feel they make the show don"t contribute,
it doesn't add up to enough to make it.
Larger airshows are a different breed of cat from little get togethers and
the economics are not comparable.
EBS
ae...@mail.idt.net
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970908092603.430B-100000@reliant>,
"John R. Johnson" <jo...@siu.edu> wrote:
> I have no problem filling my flyin schedule with as many flyins as I can
> possibly make it to. In fact, there are always several I would LOVE to
> Many flyins pay for fuel for selected aircraft. I have a REAL problem
> for flyins that buy fuel for some show aircraft and charge admission for
> other show aircraft.
John:
One last comment and I'll shut up.
I spent probably $750 on parts and aviation gear at the Fly
Mart/AeroMart at Sun & Fun and probably $1000 at Oshkosh (I'm not
bragging, somebody please help me before I strike again! I'm the guy
dragging the little cart full of greasy stuff). Watching that 10% or
whatever they make being racked up made me realize that the volunteers in
there are probably the most lucrative for the fly-in of all.
Year before last at Copperstate (last time I went) I asked where the
Fly Mart was and the volunteer had to consult with three people before
learning that there wasn't one because the "guy who used to run it"
wasn't there that year.
They may have good financial reasons for charging display aircraft, but
I wonder just how much thought they've given to their financial planning.
Tony Pucillo
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
ae...@mail.idt.net
In article <01bcbd48$c5240b60$70beabce@default>,
But Ed --
As you say, Copperstate is a "Really Big Sh-o-o-o-o" and needs the
money.
BTW, I never knew the great Ed Sullivan was an aviation enthusiast as
well as a Beatles fan. Tony Pucillo
ae...@mail.idt.net
In article <340CF8...@ix.netcom.com>,
as-...@ix.netcom.com (Bill Berle) wrote:
> Now, Bill, all those years of nuclear testing must have gotten to you.
> The correct spelling is PEON, not pion. Pion sounds as if it is related
> to "pious", which indeed that fellow's Email seems to be related to as
> well. And pious is actually a little too close to pompous as far as I am
> concerned, which also seems to be related to the Email. Now PEON, as it
> were, implies a certain physical action that might be appropriate in
> this case, for instance "Pee on their event". This is of course for the
> purpose of illustrating the correct pronunciation of the word peon,
> nothing else at all, I assure you.
How about "Paeon" (physician to the Gods?) or "paeon" (something to do
with Greek literature -- Greek, not Geek)? Maybe "peony" would be
better, but it would wilt at Copperstate, especially after Bill pees on
it.
"Pion" sounds like a subatomic particle. In fact, the dictionary says
it's a a "Pi-meson." I don't have a clue what that is, but I bet BWB
does. I CAN tell you that it's not the same as a Master Mason (oops,
another secret conspiracy I'm not supposed to admit I know about). I
guess I was Pie-Mason because I always had a nice dinner before the
meetings.
Insofar as Copperstate is concerned, wouldn't a polite "I know it's
cheap, but we're broke, wanna contribute?" have been more persuasive?
Just a thought. Bill spends more than $7 a day on soft drinks, I assume.
On the other hand, if I were a Copperstate volunteer, I might be a bit
testy (especially after a couple days in the sun) but PR is part of the
game, isn't it?
Tony Pucillo
P.S. This whole thread never showed up on my Server. Hmm.
Badwater Bill
Badwater Bill
Ed Sullivan
Arrrgh!
EBS
Ed Sullivan
Just got back from Reno, I think I am!
EBS
Tony P.
Ed:
Let me guess: you've heard a few Ed sullivan jokes before, right? I
still think referring to Copperstate as "really big shoooo" was
clever. Maybe that speaks for itself. Hmm.
Tony Pucillo
[I speak only for myself unless I say otherwise. One personality is
quite enough, thank you.]
"Castigat ridendo mores" <laughter succeeds where lecturing won't>
Ronald James Wanttaja
In article <341E4B...@mail.idt.net>, Tony P. <ae...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>Ed:
>
> Let me guess: you've heard a few Ed sullivan jokes before, right? I
>still think referring to Copperstate as "really big shoooo" was
>clever. Maybe that speaks for itself. Hmm.
Sometimes I wonder if it's worse having a famous name like Ed's vs. a
name that sounds like someone gargling rocks, like mine. I've worked
with a "John Wayne" and a "Rhett Butler". The first man had an air of
tired defensiveness, the second still had a pretty good sense of humor about
it.
It was tough getting EITHER of them paged over a public address
system....
Ron Wanttaja
want...@halcyon.com
http://www.halcyon.com/wanttaja/
Jerry Springer
Ronald James Wanttaja wrote:
>
> Sometimes I wonder if it's worse having a famous name like Ed's vs. a
> name that sounds like someone gargling rocks, like mine. I've worked
> with a "John Wayne" and a "Rhett Butler". The first man had an air of
> tired defensiveness, the second still had a pretty good sense of humor about
> it.
>
> It was tough getting EITHER of them paged over a public address
> system....
>
> Ron Wanttaja
> want...@halcyon.com
> http://www.halcyon.com/wanttaja/
You wouldn't believe all of the private email I get telling me how
bad my tv show is.
Jerry(not the tv host) Springer
--
randy stiefer
Jerry Springer
> You wouldn't believe all of the private email I get telling me how
> bad my tv show is.
> Jerry(not the tv host) Springer
I guess the people who like his show aren't exactly computer
literate.
John R. Johnson
On 16 Sep 1997, Ronald James Wanttaja wrote:
>
> In article <341E4B...@mail.idt.net>, Tony P. <ae...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
> >Ed:
> >
> > Let me guess: you've heard a few Ed sullivan jokes before, right? I
> >still think referring to Copperstate as "really big shoooo" was
> >clever. Maybe that speaks for itself. Hmm.
>
> Sometimes I wonder if it's worse having a famous name like Ed's vs. a
> name that sounds like someone gargling rocks, like mine. I've worked
> with a "John Wayne" and a "Rhett Butler". The first man had an air of
> tired defensiveness, the second still had a pretty good sense of humor about
> it.
>
> It was tough getting EITHER of them paged over a public address
> system....
>
Actually, a name like John Johnson can have its own problems. When I
lived in Minneapolis there were seven pages of John Johnson's in the
phonebook with the same middle initial! My bank kept taking other John's
checks out of my account and putting my deposits into some other John's
account. If they did that to all of the John JOhnson accounts there were
squirreling away a fortune somewhere! :o)
John
Tony P.
Ron:
I know which is better. I just love it when somebody calls trying to
ge tthrough to me to sell zero-coupon bonds or something, pretending to
be an old friend, or to be returning my call on something we've been
working on, and asks for Mr. Petrocelli.
Names like Sullivan or Springer will never have the built-in B.S.
filter that Wanttaja or Pucillo or (oh no) Slusarczyk have. I can
imagine some of the things the two of you get to hear. My standard
greeting for years was ""this is he" (making a grammatical point I
guess) but I've given that up in favor of "that's close enough, yes?"
Badwater Bill
On Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:30:53 -0700, "Tony P." <ae...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
>Ron:
>
> I know which is better. I just love it when somebody calls trying to
>ge tthrough to me to sell zero-coupon bonds or something, pretending to
>be an old friend, or to be returning my call on something we've been
>working on, and asks for Mr. Petrocelli.
>
> Names like Sullivan or Springer will never have the built-in B.S.
>filter that Wanttaja or Pucillo or (oh no) Slusarczyk have. I can
>imagine some of the things the two of you get to hear. My standard
>greeting for years was ""this is he" (making a grammatical point I
>guess) but I've given that up in favor of "that's close enough, yes?"
>
> Tony Pucillo
Tony: I can't help myself because the Devil makes me do these things.
I have no problem with the pronounciation of your name, I just
pronounce it like: "Tony! P***y-low at your six o'clock and another
p***y-high at your two!"
I'm a nasty Boy! I'm going to run and hide now!
BWB