Seat/shoulder belts
Paul Lee
Are there recommendations for seat/shoulder belts for experimentals.
Are automotive seat/shoulder belts suitable for experimentals?
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Paul Lee .......
AL Mills
"Paul Lee" [asked] Are there recommendations for seat/shoulder belts for
All I can tell you, Paul, is that one day I departure stalled without the
benefit of a shoulder restraint system. I compression fractured my L3
vertebra when my (helmeted) head struck a structural tube and my seatbelt
held my hips firmly where they belonged. Anything is better than nothing.
They had some pretty fancy looking rigs on the Junkyard Wars episode our
beloved Chuck the Gearhead was on, and it probably saved Barnaby Wainfan
from broken bones or worse.
AL
Dan Thomas
I use automotive belts in my Jodel. Cut them out of a decent car
at the junkyard. If they're strong enough to hold you back in a 75 MPH
crash, they should be able to hold you back if you have a landing or
takeoff accident at 50. Anything else is going to be a pretty big bang
that you wouldn't survive anyway, I think...
Dan
Paul Lee
news:1a291bd5.02011...@posting.google.com:
>
> I use automotive belts in my Jodel. Cut them out of a decent car
> at the junkyard. If they're strong enough to hold you back in a 75 MPH
> crash, they should be able to hold you back if you have a landing or
> takeoff accident at 50. Anything else is going to be a pretty big bang
> that you wouldn't survive anyway, I think...
>
> Dan
Thanks,
So far I did not see any regulations about using autom. belts
in experimentals. They are quite strong - but may have a little
heavier buckles than official aviation ones.
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Paul Lee ......
Scrappman
Paul Lee wrote:
Most auto type also have a push button release, not to easy to release
inverted with your weight hanging on them..... Just a thought.
Scrappman
Ron Wanttaja
> So far I did not see any regulations about using autom. belts
> in experimentals. They are quite strong - but may have a little
> heavier buckles than official aviation ones.
There are no regulations regarding what you can put on a homebuilt. You
are required to comply with registration and marking regulations, but
the FAA can't deny you permission to fly with an automotive seat belt,
any more than they can refuse you an airworthiness certificate because
you've got an automotive engine.
Keep in mind, though, that the TSO requirements for aviation gear aren't
usually wrung out of thin air; they come about as the result of
engineering studies and analysis of actual accidents. Having a seat
belt that meets the same requirements as a certified belt is probably a
Very Good Thing.
According to the older copy of FAR 23 that I have (1994), the structure
(including the seat belts) of a certified aircraft must be designed to
protect the occupant for 3 Gs upward (4.5 Gs for aerobatic category), 9
Gs forward, and 1.5 G sideways.
So you can either find out the standards automotive seat belts are made
to and compare, or rig up a test system to check your belts out. Either
way, it's still not an FAA requirement, if they're for an
Experimental/Amateur-Built aircraft.
(However, DARs can sometimes impose restrictions intended to apply
pressure for you to use a more-proven system. Examples in the past have
included a very restricted test area and/or a long test period for
planes with poorly designed and built engine conversions.)
Ron Wanttaja
r...@wanttaja.com
Ed Wischmeyer
> > > I use automotive belts in my Jodel. Cut them out of a decent car
> > > at the junkyard.
I put dragster seatbelts in my RV-4. Only caveat was that they were not
necessarily as UV tolerant as airplane belts, but I kept the plane in a
hangar. Always things to think about if you don't go 100% by the book.
Ed Wischmeyer
Jim VanDervort
keep it airworthy.
A mag with the serial tag on it for example.
Must comply with all ADs and all else.
Same mag with no tag, nothing required.
assa9
Ron Wanttaja <ikv...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:3C4235E9...@gte.net...
BOb U
I ONCE had a set of dragster seatbelts in a Pawnee.
They literally fell apart one day while I was cinching up.
GULP.
BOb - fate is the hunter - U
Ray Leonard
Something strange about that. They usually issue identical
safety equipment to both teams and require them to use it -
yet team Chuck had what looked like a car lap belt, while
team Barnaby had a full harness. ????
Ray
Paul Lee
news:3C421630...@rconnect.com:
>......
> Most auto type also have a push button release, not to easy
> to release inverted with your weight hanging on them
> ..... Just a thought.
> Scrappman
Not the ones I got from J.C. Whitney. They release with
the buckle flap - very easily. They seem to be on the heavy
side - probably adding an extra pound.
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Paul Lee .......
Richard Lamb
if you intend to return the part to service on a
certificated airplane someday. Serial number or no.
If the part is never going back on a certified machine
OR
if it's modified at all
(!)
if _can't_ go back into a certified machine.
But as Ron pointed out, the AD's point out serious
known
defects that could cause a lot of problems if ignored.
The Experimental nature of our beasts gives us amazing
freedom to try different things. But the goal is still
(or at least should be) a safe machine.
My new parasol has a new automotive belt. It was $15.
Since I now know that its service life is likely less
that aircraft standards, I'll probably add that to the
conditional inspection list and change it evey couple of
years.
But I hadn't thought about that until it came up here.
Jim VanDervort wrote:
>
> If you do have something that is type certificated,
> and ID'd as so, you must keep it airworthy.
> A mag with the serial tag on it for example.
> Must comply with all ADs and all else.
> Same mag with no tag, nothing required.
>
> assa9
>
--
Richard Lamb
email: lam...@flash.net
Texas Parasol web page: http://www.flash.net/~lamb01
Leo Powning
the runway, and went inverted. He was left hanging in the straps with
a hot engine and fuel running from the aircraft, and he couldn't
release the auto type buckle. Fortunately we saw him do the deed,
rushed over and cut the straps to release him.
Cheers,
Leo
Scrappman <rap...@rconnect.com> wrote in message news:<3C421630...@rconnect.com>...
Jim Vandervort
Maybe just here at our FSDO :-)
assa9
Richard Lamb <lam...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3C436AE2...@flash.net...
Larry Smith
"Leo Powning" <leopo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d0dd6749.02011...@posting.google.com...
The Marquardt Charger I just saw had a 5-point harness nicely installed to
keep you from falling out when inverted. You can purchase a similar 5-point
belt which latches a little like the Schroth or the Davis belts you buy at
Wicks and Spruce. If I were building one of these aerobatic biplanes, I
would buy belts at J. C. Whitney. At 3" wide they look strong enough for
about 20 G's.
I've been following this thread with some fascination because I am busy
installing shoulder belts in an old taildragger from the 40's. Here is a
site or two which have helped me. The installation illustratons found in AC
43-13B are here too:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/news/harness/seatbeltmanlisting.htm
--harness suppliers
Also Wicks http://www.wicksaircraft.com has them, made by Davis Aircraft
Supply.
http://avstop.com/maint/alterations/f9-16.jpg
--shoulder harness attachment suggestions as shown in AC 43-13B
It seems FAA has loosened the rules a little to save lives because in the
past it has been difficult to install shoulder belts in these old planes.
We have been discussing in the Taylorcraft mail list about how many lives we
believe would have been saved if shoulder belts had been installed in
addition to seat belts. The shoulder belts I bought from Wicks are not
TSO'd, while the seat belts which go with them, and latch together at one
point at your waist, are. It seems from what I can read that the FAA has
not established standards yet for TSO's on shoulder belts. Any comments on
that?
Anyhow I have noticed quite a few of these old planes with owner-installed
shoulder belts, and the cleanest installations have a "Y" shoulder belt
(Wicks and Spruce carry the "H" too) with 2 female fittings which slide over
the male bayonet side of the belt latch when you buckle up.
If you want to go aerobatic, you just install the other belt attached under
the seat; and it also siameses at the latch as a fifth point to hold your
butt to the seat when you're upside down.
Bruce A. Frank
sunlight leading to rapid deterioration. Was the Pawnee tied down
outside?
Bruce A. Frank
Bruce A. Frank
I got the 404 error message with:
http://www.faa.gov/avr/news/harness/seatbeltmanlisting.htm
Is there some punctuation missing?
Bruce A. Frank
Larry Smith
"Bruce A. Frank" <baf...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3C45DFFC...@worldnet.att.net...
> Larry,
>
> I got the 404 error message with:
>
> http://www.faa.gov/avr/news/harness/seatbeltmanlisting.htm
>
> Is there some punctuation missing?
>
> Bruce A. Frank
>
> Larry Smith wrote:
> >
> > "Leo Powning" <leopo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:d0dd6749.02011...@posting.google.com...
I just tried it, Bruce. It works now.
Ron Natalie
"Bruce A. Frank" wrote:
>
> Larry,
>
> I got the 404 error message with:
>
> http://www.faa.gov/avr/news/harness/seatbeltmanlisting.htm
>
> Is there some punctuation missing?
>
Look here. There are several PDF files on this page with AC's in them as well.
Ron Natalie
Larry Smith wrote:
> I just tried it, Bruce. It works now.
It for some reason only loads in InternetExplorer for me.
Russell Kent
That's because the "gacomm.css" style sheet is missing. Netscape
squawks, IE just keeps barreling along...
Russell Kent
Bruce A. Frank
Bruce A. Frank
Collins
is that our damn government can't stay away from proprietary
Micro$oft shit.
Bob Collins
Skip Egdorf
>Of course, using Netscape is _not_ the problem. The problem
>is that our damn government can't stay away from proprietary
>Micro$oft shit.
>
Netscape IS a problem. Style Sheets are a standard. I read the page just
fine with
Mozilla on Linux. Upgrade. http://www.mozilla.org has both Windows and
Linux versions that beat IE six ways from Sunday.
Skip Egdorf
egd...@cybermesa.com
N8849W - PA28-235
N???SE - AcroSport-II under Construction
BOb U
>Could it be that the plexi canopy on the Pawnee passed much more
>sunlight leading to rapid deterioration. Was the Pawnee tied down
>outside?
>
>Bruce A. Frank
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You betcha.
The only time the Pawnees ever saw the inside of a hangar
was when they needed severe maintainance....
Like from a crash.
BTW..
Of course, that would be caused by the 'other' pilot.
When I crashed 'em they stayed crashed. <g>
BOb U
Bruce A. Frank
the sunlight coming through the skylight. I am well aware of the
deterioration of nylon in sunlight, but it had not really crossed my
mind that those belts exposed to sunlight through the Plexiglas windows
in the plane would degrade so completely.
Years ago while working for Granitville Mills in SC, we used polyester
web, similar in look to nylon seat belt material, as leader tape to pull
start the cloth through the processing machines. I took some of it and
refurbished one of my parents lawn chairs. Fifteen years later that
chair, which always sat outside, was still able to support my 240lbs. I
have wondered why this material was never used for belts and harnesses.
I have never researched it (and it appears that some company's experts
misinform me when I have). Does anyone know what is the durability of
polyester compared to nylon? Are belts ever made of Kevlar? Does Kevlar
stand up to sunlight?
Bruce A. Frank
--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8L Engine and V-6 STOL
BAF...@worldnet.att.net Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
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