Bede Aircraft
Gregory James
Monday August 01 1994 19:13, Brian Simon wrote to All:
: >>
: >> I'd like to know if anyone has any thoughts on the BD line of aircraft?
: >> I am very interested in the BD-12/14 series and am anxiously awaiting
: >> the reviews after Oshkosh.
: >> Rich
: >>
BS> : A complicated issue ....
BS> < delete a paragraph >
BS> : The BD5 was another approach in the quest for "an airplane in every
BS> garage" : that has been the goal of many designers & dreamers in
aviation
BS> history. : Unlike the "low & slow" types such as the Cub & Kitfox, the 5
BS> was to be a : 200+ mph sportplane. The idea was to use the smallest
BS> airframe possible and : power it with a lightweight 2-stroke engine.
BS> Making it go fast meant extra
I have one of the orginal info packs from Bede Aviation on the BD-5.
I was very skeptical of Bede's claims of performance considering the engine
options at the time, despite it dimunative size.
BS> : The airplane was decent at an empty weight of <450 lbs. People with
no
BS> engine
BS> Well, got home from Oshkosh at midnight last night (thanks for the
BS> campsite Tim) and saw the BD 12/14 there. I didn't hang out and ask
alot
BS> of questions, but suffice it to say that Mr. Bede is still hooked on the
BS> slick pusher designs, but with conventional flying surfaces. One KEY
BS> point however, is the engine design.
BS> Mr Bede's company has a deal with an engine designer who is associated
BS> with a larger aerospace firm. The design is a compact, very powerful,
BS> heavy-fueled beast. They had a plexiglass mockup there to demonstrate
the
BS> internal workings of the machine. Its about the size of a watermellon,
BS> and is supposed to produce 400 (no typo, four hundred) horsepower,
BS> using diesel/kerosene fuels.
BS> Should the design work, it would be a VERY exciting advance in engine
BS> technologies. However, it reminds me of a design written up in Sport
BS> Aviation a few years ago that I haven't heard of since. In MY opinion
BS> (whoops, IMHO), one should be a bit skeptical of the kit for a few
years,
BS> until the engine at least runs on a test stand. Maybe some other
BS> attendees can produce some better details.
I hung around the BD-12 display area and caught Jim Bede's presentation
on
his latest venture. I was unaware though, that the engine you are referring
to
which was on display next to the BD-12, was being considered by Jim for
powering the BD-12. I did look over the display engine, and must admit it was
most interesting. I discussed it with some others there, most of us thought
that the vanes; each of which have both ends rubbing internal surfaces, would
have a lot of horspower lost due to internal friction. I am not an engineer
myself, so I really have nothing to base my opinion on other than it appears
there will be a lot of surface area friction ( both ends of each vane, forgot
how many there were now, and the sides of each vane were they pass through
their guides). There main reason for their presence was to get investors
interested in buying into their company that is trading OTC at the present
time.
Now this brings me back to Jim Bede. He too is looking for investors at
the rate of $250,000 a pop to be part of a nationwide network. I must admit it
appears that Jim has successfully developed the BD-10, but hell would freeze
over before I would put a dime in such a plan. I do like the concept of the
new series of aircraft, and think that there are number of engines that would
be an excellent choice for the mid-engine BD, the Subaru E-81 comes to mind.
But you can't forget what happened to the BD-5 and all the owners left
holding
the bag. I questioned Jim which engine he had in mind for the BD-12A, which
according to his handouts lists the engine as being 80 H.P.. I mentioned that
at the price of $18,900 including engine this couldn't be the Rotax 912 and
Jim said " No , that would not be the engine "( IMHO ) Jim says " The engine
will be a Zenoah " Okay, maybe I am missing something here, but he lists the
fuel comsumption at 3.2 gph. , So I went to the Zenoah people there and ask to
see their 80 hp. 2 cycle engine no less....that gets 3.2 gph. I was informed
that they don't make a 80 h.p. engine. So perhaps Jim misunderstood the
question or perhaps I misunderstood Jim, either way one should take his specs
for the plane with a grain of salt. Jim is the consumate optimist.
Gregory
SidLloyd
Gregor...@f15.n294.z1.fidonet.org (Gregory James) writes:
>>>>snip<<<<
>So perhaps Jim misunderstood the
>question or perhaps I misunderstood Jim, either way one should take his
specs
>for the plane with a grain of salt. Jim is the consumate optimist.
I noticed a large map at the BD-12/14 display showing what I thought was
the Bede dealer network. Under closer inspection, it showed "potential"
dealer locations. Essentially, it meant nothing.
Richard Lanning
say that they are not considering it at this time. It was merely a
coincidence that the Bede booth was next to this display and a lot of
people have erroneously assumed that the engine was part of the Bede
display.
I too am concerned about the specs and claims being made by the Bede
people. One thing they have done is anyone who gives a deposit will
get a full refund if the aircraft does not attain the stated specifications.
Having not seen the actual contract I would certainly look it over very
carefully to make sure there are no loopholes.
JEFFRY STETSON
>In article <1994Aug22....@knight.vf.ge.com> lan...@acc211.vf.ge.com writes:
>>...<snip>
>>
>>I too am concerned about the specs and claims being made by the Bede
>>people. One thing they have done is anyone who gives a deposit will
>>get a full refund if the aircraft does not attain the stated specifications.
>>Having not seen the actual contract I would certainly look it over very
>>carefully to make sure there are no loopholes.
>>
>
>bankruptcy (like they did on the BD-5) and the money is gone, such
>offers of "refund" are virtually worthless.
>
Not true. The BD12/14 deposit money (a grand sum of $100) will be held in
escrow. Bede only gets the money when they deliver the kit. You get the
money back if you have second thoughts within 30 days. You also can get the
money back if the kit is not delivered within 18 months of when you make the
deposit, or if the performance projections are not met.
In conversations with Bede, he told me the following:
1) The deposits are only to 'test' the waters as to the marketability of the
design. They do not finance the development of it in any way.
2) If you have any reservations about the contract, make your own contract
and send it in for *their* signature. Specifically, I asked that if could
put conditions on acceptance of delivery like availability of financing or
dealer assistance.
3) That most of the people that were still 'mad' at him for the BD5 bankruptcy
had not personally lost any money on it or had any personal involvement with
it.
4) The BD5 bankruptcy was not fun experience for Jim Bede. He would
understand if people were upset with him for losing the company if (a) they
had personally lost money or (b) he had made money. If fact, he said that he
lost his house, his car, the BD2, and his own savings.
5) I stated that over the years it was clear to me that he had learned much
as an engineer and that his designs showed that learning. I asked, then, "Can
I say that you have learned from the BD5 experience in the business sense too?"
He looked at me rather strangely and said something to the effect - 'yes
of course, i certainly don't want to go through that again.'
Who knows the future? Not me.
But, the contract sent out in the info packs says
you do not pay for the kit until it's ready for delivery, that you don't have
to accept it if it doesn't meet the performance projections, and additionally,
he says you can write your own contract if you don't like the one they wrote.
Too, the price for the kit is fixed. I don't know what kind of guarentees
beyond this one could offer.
Does he have my $100? No, at least not yet. I have a (old) cross-country
machine and would have to get a BD14 to replace it. At $35000 + avionics,
it's a bargain for a new plane, but I don't have that kind of money. A VFR
BD12 is within reason, but I don't *need* it. It would be cheap flying an
minimal maintenence compared to a 30 year old factory-built though ...
Jeffry Stetson ... Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane
EAA #124158, MAPA #10921, AOPA #552326
7 Young Eagles Flown
Mooney M20E "Super 21"
Richard Lanning
I have the info pack from Bede on the BD-12/14. There are a lot of things
not mentioned that could have a significant impact on someone's decision
to purchase. The most obvious being the specific engines he has chosen for
the aircraft. Naturally, it is still early in the development so I'm
certainly willing to give Jim Bede a chance. The literature doesn't really
say what is included in the purchase price such as basic VFR instruments,
interior, navigation lights, landing lights, etc. A lot of kits have a low
price until you start adding all the "necessary" accessories.
It would have been nice if they had included a copy of the sales/escrow
agreement in the information packet so you could see what the terms
really are. The literature clearly states that the prices are projected
though when I called they did say over the phone that if you place an order
now you will be guaranteed that projected price. I didn't see anything in
the info packet about being able to write your own contract but this might
have come up in conversations with Jim Bede. I know when I called they said
you could select one model and place a stipulation in the contract to be able
to choose a different model at a later date.
October should tell us a lot about the BD-12/14 since that is when flight
testing begins. If the plane meets its specs Jim might very well get my
$100.
JEFFRY STETSON
>
>
>I have the info pack from Bede on the BD-12/14. There are a lot of things
>not mentioned that could have a significant impact on someone's decision
>to purchase. The most obvious being the specific engines he has chosen for
>the aircraft. Naturally, it is still early in the development so I'm
>certainly willing to give Jim Bede a chance. The literature doesn't really
>say what is included in the purchase price such as basic VFR instruments,
>interior, navigation lights, landing lights, etc. A lot of kits have a low
>price until you start adding all the "necessary" accessories.
>
Agreed, the info pack is a bit skimpy. Again, verbally, I was told that the
kits would include electrical system up to the avionics buss, and day VFR
instruments. In other words, everything needed to fly the airplane, but
not much else.
>It would have been nice if they had included a copy of the sales/escrow
>agreement in the information packet so you could see what the terms
>really are. The literature clearly states that the prices are projected
>though when I called they did say over the phone that if you place an order
>now you will be guaranteed that projected price.
Somebody goofed! My info pack had the sales agreement included. The prices
are firm at the level stated in the brochure, if you sign up before Jan 1
>I didn't see anything in
>the info packet about being able to write your own contract but this might
>have come up in conversations with Jim Bede.
Yes, exactly.
>I know when I called they said
>you could select one model and place a stipulation in the contract to be able
>to choose a different model at a later date.
>
>October should tell us a lot about the BD-12/14 since that is when flight
>testing begins.
Agreed!
ShawnT2
see you guys have been talking about BD aircraft a bit. Seems like this
Jim Bede character is full of good ideas, but ones that don't make money
sense. Well, turns out I read the article about his BD-10 jet (on the
cover of Kitplanes) and thought what a stupid idea it was. How many
people would put that kind of money into a kit like that? To top it off,
who would risk (400 mph?) in a homebuilt jet. (Ok maybe 300 in a
Lancair).
Anyway the point of my story. A few weeks ago I'm out at the local strip.
(Weiker field in between Toledo & Cleveland, 1600 feet of grass, no real
mecca of aviation) Turns out some guy in Fostoria, Ohio (only 15 miles
away from where I live) not only has built one, but it's up and flying.
And I mean UP and flying. Sound like the thing flies completely vertical.
Neet stuff! Put me in my place. From what I hear though, the guy is
just about broke from the cost of the TurboJet (Pratt/Whitney?).
Anyway, thought I would pass that on.
I probably could get some detailed info, but you'll have to directly
e-mail me to let me know if you're interested.
Shawn Chaney
Fremont, OH.
PP-SEL- IA
Van's RV-6A in Progress.
Jeffry Stetson
says:
>
>I don't get to the internet very much (too many $$$ through AOL. But I
>see you guys have been talking about BD aircraft a bit. Seems like this
>Jim Bede character is full of good ideas, but ones that don't make money
>sense. Well, turns out I read the article about his BD-10 jet (on the
>cover of Kitplanes) and thought what a stupid idea it was. How many
>people would put that kind of money into a kit like that? To top it off,
>who would risk (400 mph?) in a homebuilt jet. (Ok maybe 300 in a
>Lancair).
Last I heard, about 70 kits sold, 20 delivered, at $250,000 per. 400 mph?
try 600 mph, eventually supersonic. Jim's BD-1 turned into the Yankee
and lead to the Grumman American line. They made money 'till the great
bust.
>
>Anyway the point of my story. A few weeks ago I'm out at the local
strip.
> (Weiker field in between Toledo & Cleveland, 1600 feet of grass, no real
>mecca of aviation) Turns out some guy in Fostoria, Ohio (only 15 miles
>away from where I live) not only has built one, but it's up and flying.
>And I mean UP and flying. Sound like the thing flies completely
vertical.
Very interesting; I had heard several kits were close to flying, looks
like one made it!
> Neet stuff! Put me in my place. From what I hear though, the guy is
>just about broke from the cost of the TurboJet (Pratt/Whitney?).
>
A good low time engine should be had for about $100k; pretty much in line
with the kit price.
>Anyway, thought I would pass that on.
>
Thanks!