Good plans-built Light Sport Aircraft
Rob Schneider
get as a response to this post, but here goes:
I have a long term plan to get a PPL and build a plane for cross
country travel (from South Dakota to Idaho, so it would involve flying
over the Rockies). Maybe a Dyke Delta, but this part of the plan is
so far off, things could change between now and then (and all things
considered, it may end up making more sense to rent something, too,
but at this point I'm hoping to build a second plane).
My more immediate desire is to get a Sport Pilot license and get some
stick time in a Light Sport aircraft - I want a lot of flight time
under my belt before I take the family up.
So, what I am looking for is suggestions for a good choice for a plans
built LSA, preferably wood (I've already got the tools) but I'm not
absolutely set on that factor. Since this would be the first of two
planes, it needs to be as low cost as possible (Aviation Induced
Divorce Syndrome, you know.) I want something more substancial than
an ultralight - preferably an enclosed cabin. A kit probably isn't an
option, as I'm hoping to pay for it by spreading small costs out over
time rather than putting big lumps on the credit card (excluding the
engine, of course).
I seem to like the more unconventional designs (say the Ibis, or
Barnaby, how 'bout some plans for the FacetMobile?) but in the
interest of keeping this first plane as cheap as possible, I'm
guessing I'll end up with a traditional design. I'm expecting
something along the lines of a VW power plant. Single seat is fine,
assuming I'd be able to use this thing to stay current with my
evenutal PPL. I'm in my mid thirties and plan to keep this plane for
a long time, so resale isn't a big factor.
I saw somewhere somebody built a small version of the Dyke Delta, but
apparently the plans aren't available. Too bad, as that could
dovetail nicely with my long term plans for the full size plane
(assuming it qualified as an LSA).
At any rate, basically it needs to be cheap to build, cheap to own,
and fun to fly. Off the top of my head, I've heard good and bad
things about the Volksplane, next to nothing about the Afordaplane,
and generally good things about the Pietenpol. Any advice on those
three, and any suggestions for alternatives?
Thanks in advance.
Rob
Ron Wanttaja
Schneider) wrote:
>So, what I am looking for is suggestions for a good choice for a plans
>built LSA, preferably wood (I've already got the tools) but I'm not
>absolutely set on that factor. Since this would be the first of two
>planes, it needs to be as low cost as possible (Aviation Induced
>Divorce Syndrome, you know.) I want something more substancial than
>an ultralight - preferably an enclosed cabin. A kit probably isn't an
>option, as I'm hoping to pay for it by spreading small costs out over
>time rather than putting big lumps on the credit card (excluding the
>engine, of course).
Fly Baby, of course...assuming they ever start selling plans again. Too
big for a VW, but in some quarters, this is considered a plus. :-)
Ron Wanttaja
James R. Freeman
http://www.lightminiatureaircraft.com/
Their website is under an update at the moment but you can look at the
Yahoo group. Fred and Doc have been at this since the 80s and give great
support. They have 3 models of stick and rag models that meet L.S.A. .
The Evans VP-1 and VP-2 will do a good job. You can still get the VP-1
plans from Evans or a lot of folks on the VP (Yahoo again) have a spare
unused set. Evans stopped selling the VP-2 plans but again they are not hard
to find.
Jim
"Rob Schneider" <rob.sc...@riteresources.com> wrote in message
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Robert Loer
go to http://www.flysquirrel.net/
Robert
"Rob Schneider" <rob.sc...@riteresources.com> wrote in message
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Fred in Florida
Fred
"Rob Schneider" <rob.sc...@riteresources.com> wrote in message
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Rob Schneider
Ron,
I would qualify yours as a "predictable" response. LOL!
From the looks of it, this would have to be kept at an airport (not
trailerable) and what's the ballpark figure for an A-65?
This looks like a wonderful plane, perhaps on the high end of what I'm
searching for. I'm only about 5'7", and weigh about 200 lbs (really,
I've got wide shoulders!) so this plane looks might be a tad big for
my needs, but it's definitely worthy of consideration. Looks like
there are a lot of them out there. Is it really that cheap to
maintain?
Rob
Richard Lamb
>
> Having been a lurker on this site for a while, I'm not sure what I'll
> get as a response to this post, but here goes:
>
>
> and fun to fly. Off the top of my head, I've heard good and bad
> things about the Volksplane, next to nothing about the Afordaplane,
> and generally good things about the Pietenpol. Any advice on those
> three, and any suggestions for alternatives?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Rob
Cheap, simple, VW powered (or 2 stroke), and a nice flyer too.
Plans buolt, and we have a good email list for builders support.
http://home.earthlink.net/~n6228l/
Richard Lamb
Richard Lamb
Take a look at my parasol, Rob.
No problem building it a bit "wider"...
Rob Schneider
> Look at:
>
> http://www.lightminiatureaircraft.com/
>
> Their website is under an update at the moment but you can look at the
> Yahoo group. Fred and Doc have been at this since the 80s and give great
> support. They have 3 models of stick and rag models that meet L.S.A. .
>
> The Evans VP-1 and VP-2 will do a good job. You can still get the VP-1
> plans from Evans or a lot of folks on the VP (Yahoo again) have a spare
> unused set. Evans stopped selling the VP-2 plans but again they are not hard
> to find.
> Jim
>
Evans isn't selling them anymore makes me a bit hesitant. Evans web
site says they own the copyright for both planes, so I don't
understand why they wouldn't be selling both.
What are the differences between the VP-1 and VP-2, and does anybody
know why the VP-2 plans are off the market?
C.D.Damron
"Rob Schneider" <rob.sc...@riteresources.com> wrote in message
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> know why the VP-2 plans are off the market?
I've talked to a couple of builders and owners. They all seem to agree that
designs have evolved a bit in all areas. Compare the construction of a
Mini-Max to a VP-1. The Max seems pretty beefy, in comparison.
Ron Wanttaja
Schneider) wrote:
>> Fly Baby, of course...assuming they ever start selling plans again. Too
>> big for a VW, but in some quarters, this is considered a plus. :-)
>
>Ron,
>
>I would qualify yours as a "predictable" response. LOL!
Well, I *wuz* gonna recommend it on the 'Five Pax' thread, but... :-)
>
>From the looks of it, this would have to be kept at an airport (not
>trailerable)...
It's trailerable, but it's *awkward* trailerable. The usual empty weight
is about 700 pounds. It's a bit of a handful, but it *was* originally
designed to be towed on its own wheels. Pete Bowers even had a trailer
license for the Fly Baby prototype...and the only electrics ever installed
were trailer taillights in the wing roots (which face backwards when Pete
hooked his special tow bracket to the tailwheel).
The Fly Baby wing folding system is archaic. Folding wing airplanes today
generally just need to have a couple of pins removed and the wings swing
into the folded position. On the Fly Baby, you've got to pull four spar
pins, disconnect two aileron pushrod pins, slack off one turnbuckle, remove
the clevis pins from both ends of the turnbuckle, undo the clevis pins on
the wheel axle shackles, unbolt the pitot boom, and disconnect the pitot
and static lines in the cockpit. It can be done by one guy, but it's a
heck of a lot easier with two.
Consider, though, how many people actually keep their planes at home and
trailer them to the airport when they want to fly. I've personally only
known one guy who used to do that (with a Dyke Delta, no less!) and even he
gave it up after a year or two and got a hangar.
Having to tow the plane to the airport every time you want to fly *really*
is a hassle, especially if the plane is a "fun flyer". It pretty much
kills any spontaneous flight...you've got to load the thing up, take it to
the airport, go through the gate, unload it, park your car, unfold the
wings, preflight, fly, then repeat the whole process in reverse, whether
you take a nice long trip or just want to shoot some touch-and-goes on a
nice summer evening.
A better use for a folding wing system it to use it to fit into the corner
of someone else's hangar. Fit two planes in one hangar, and you've dropped
your hangar bill by 50%. That Dyke I mentioned above ended up sharing a
hangar with two other planes... a Volksplane and an Aeronca Chief.
>... and what's the ballpark figure for an A-65?
About two years ago, I found a buyer for a local woman with a Fly Baby
project for sale. It had all the parts, including an A-65. The entire
*project* sold for $1,200. I kick myself for not buying it...geeze, it had
two new cub-type wheels and brakes, including the master cylinders. You'd
probably have ~$3k in the engine by the time you're flying, but heck....
Though folks would probably be a bit happier with a bigger engine. The
ideal setup is an O-200 with no generator. Weighs only a bit more, but
with a good bit more HP.
>This looks like a wonderful plane, perhaps on the high end of what I'm
>searching for. I'm only about 5'7", and weigh about 200 lbs (really,
>I've got wide shoulders!) so this plane looks might be a tad big for
>my needs, but it's definitely worthy of consideration. Looks like
>there are a lot of them out there. Is it really that cheap to
>maintain?
I've got most of the stories on the web page. My own airplane has been
cheap, except for the electrical stuff. I hate electrical stuff.
Other than the stuff making/pushing/using 'trons, I had to get an exhaust
valve replaced (~$350), replace a gear leg ($5 for paint, got a free leg
from friend with an extra set), have a new tailwheel attach bracket made
($30), and do some rot-repair in the tail (couple of bucks for the wood, $4
for JB-Weld, $3 for small syringes to inject JB weld where I couldn't
reach, $2 for rudder gap seals at Lowe's Aerospace, etc.), made new brake
pads from a $20 scrap from the auto shop, etc. Had a batch of other stuff
I did basically as "elective surgery"... built a new seat, changed the
turtledeck, added a belly inspection panel, and so forth. None if it cost
more than a $20 bill or two (...or three) at a time.
But the electrical stuff? Geeze!
1. New Comm radio to replace old one that didn't meet the new frequency
standards ($300....hi, John, I'm still using it!).
2. Generator rebuild ($100 or so)
3. Starter clutch replacement (I count it as electrical 'cause it's a
starter part), $300
4. Two new batteries (the second one an Odyssey)
5. New transponder ($1500)
6. Battery cables, new fuse holders, etc.
None of this stuff is really needed...build a Fly Baby with a starter if
you must, but just install a battery and plan to keep it pumped up with an
external charger.
But...I have to admit, the above is true for just about *any* of the
simpler homebuilt designs. A Piet or Baby Ace should be just about as
cheap to maintain.
Gotta admit Richard's Texas Parasol looks like a good match for you....
Ron Wanttaja
Rob Schneider
(I wasn't kidding about the wide shoulders). I'm not quite sure what
to make of the wood, foam, and fiberglass construction, either. Seems
like overkill to have a wood frame and a fiberglass monocoque all in
the same body.
I'm also a little hesitant to play with fiberglass, as from what I've
read the resin volume is difficult to get right, and it can have
significant strength and/or weight penalties if you get it wrong.
I've played with RC planes over the years (none glass) and done a bit
of wood working, so I'm pretty comfortable with wood. I don't have
the tools for metal, and I can't see buying them just to build the
plane. I guess if I eventually build the Dyke Delta, I'll need some
experience with fiberglass, anyway.
I'll give this one some thought. I wonder how difficult it would be
to widen the cockpit four or five inches...
Thanks.
Rob
Leon McAtee
> So, what I am looking for is suggestions for a good choice for a plans
> built LSA, preferably wood (I've already got the tools) but I'm not
> absolutely set on that factor. Since this would be the first of two
> planes, it needs to be as low cost as possible (Aviation Induced
> Divorce Syndrome, you know.) I want something more substancial than
> an ultralight - preferably an enclosed cabin. A kit probably isn't an
> option, as I'm hoping to pay for it by spreading small costs out over
> time rather than putting big lumps on the credit card (excluding the
> engine, of course).
>
> I seem to like the more unconventional designs (say the Ibis, or
> Barnaby, how 'bout some plans for the FacetMobile?)
Cygnet? VW powered, wood, plans built, and kind of unconventional.
Not all wood but lots of it used.
http://www.airsport.com/kits/kcygnet.htm
============
Leon McAtee
Ryan Young
> So, what I am looking for is suggestions for a good choice for a plans
> built LSA, preferably wood
Some ideas for you at http://users.lmi.net/~ryoung/Sonerai/rant.html
You may want to think again about a kit. Both the Fisher and the JDT
designs are available as kits in bite sized chunks.
http://www.fisherflying.com/fleet/TheAvenger/prices.php
http://www.jdtmini-max.com/1550v.htm
The V-Max you can build from plans.
Other designs that meet your criteria include:
* Avions Pottier P-60, P - 180, P - 130
* Brandli Cherry or Swing
* Brugger MB2 Colibri
* Clutton FRED
* Cvjetkovic's CA-61(Mini Ace) <might be too fast>
* Druine Turbulent
* Falconair F-9
* Fisher Avenger, Youngster
* Flying Flea
* Flaglor Sky Scooter
* Jodel d-9, D17, D-18
* KR-1, -2 (wood fuselage, wooden wing spar) <Might be too fast>
* Stern ST-80, ST-85
* Taylor Monoplane
Ron Butterfield
http://members.shaw.ca/gnat/
Cost and performance look good.
I haven't seen any publicly posted progress for several months, but
that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. As far as I know, the prototype
is not yet finished.
Regards,
RonB
Lou Parker
Just for my 2 cents. I didn't know that you could take the family up
on a sport pilot license. Also most everything someone has mentioned
is a single seat. Here are some simple plans.
http://www.ragwingaircraftdesigns.com/home.php
Lou Parker
RobertR237
>
>Just for my 2 cents. I didn't know that you could take the family up
>on a sport pilot license. Also most everything someone has mentioned
>is a single seat. Here are some simple plans.
>http://www.ragwingaircraftdesigns.com/home.php
>
>
Depends on how you qualify taking your family up on the sport pilot license.
The limit on the sport pilot license and aircraft is a two (2) place aircraft.
That would imply that you could carry one passenger. As long as your family
consists of one other member, you could take your family up on the sport pilot
license. If your family consists of more than one member, you can still take
your family up but only one at a time.
Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
Rob Schneider
>
> Depends on how you qualify taking your family up on the sport pilot license.
Actually, the family includes two kids (currently 8 and 4). I'm
leaning towards a single seater, as I want to use it to get a lot of
experience before I even think about taking the family up. Long term
I want a PPL and perhaps to build a four place, but for now I'm just
hoping to get a Sport Pilot license and have something to putt around
in.
One of the local FBO's (in Tea, South Dakota) has already bought a
plane for use as a trainer, and they are working through all the
insurance matters, etc. and are trying to figure out exactly what
they'll need to do as far as instructors. I'll find out more when I
visit the EAA chapter this weekend. It's their monthly pancake feed
(open to the public), and as fate has it somebody from the FAA will be
there to talk about Sport Pilot.
From the sounds of it, the chapter has quite a few metal and a couple
of glass projects going on out there, and wood seems to be in the
minority. I'll find out more this weekend.
Thank you all for your suggestions. There are a lot of very nice
designs out there. I'm kind of taken by the Jodel (D-9 or Falconar's
F9 or F11E), and will be looking over some info on the CA-61 Mini Ace
as soon as it arrives in the mail.
Anybody have any experiece with the Mini Ace or the Jodel designs?
Rob
W.P. Dixon
I have been looking at the sport pilot license as well. As far as a
plane goes I think I am going to build the Hummel Ultra-Cruiser Plus from
Hummel Aviation. I like the metal construction. Not to mention it's a good
looking little plane.
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