Phoenix Composites Unmasked (Crossposted from Glasair News)
Alhansen
of Dace Kirk and Phoenix Composites. It is however, a story that needs
to be told. If it saves just one poor dumb bastard like myself from the
frustration and unpleasantness that I'm now experiencing it will be
worth it.
The attached letter and e-mail are self explanatory if you have the
background:
After eight years and three months of very enjoyable building, my
Glasair IIS RG took to the skies on July 8, 2000. It flew beautifully.
Amazing! The euphoria was to come to an abrupt end on August 19th
however, when after landing and on rollout I realized that I had no
left
brake.Unfortunately I didn't discover that fact until I had applied
both
brakes. The right brake took me off the runway and toward the only
ditch on the field. It wasn't a deep ditch but was enough for the prop
(engine idling) to strike the far side and stop the engine instantly.
Absolutely heartbreaking. The damage was serious but seemed to be
limited to the right gear which was destroyed (strut kinked), the left
gear with a broken brace and the nose gear with several broken parts
including a broken axle and kinked gas spring. There was some
relatively minor fiberglass damage in several places including the left
wingtip, top cowl and right side fuselage closeout next to the flap
end.
I and the AVEMCO rep figured the real expense would be in the engine
teardown and prop replacement. As the plane was fully insured, I
decided that the claim would be easier to handle if I just let someone
else do the repairs. I had spent more than a year painting it myself
with
PPG basecoat/clearcoat but wasn't at all sure of my ability to properly
touchup the repaired areas. Another reason to let the pros do the job.
I talked with both Phoenix Composites and Aircrafter's (Watsonville,
CA). Aircrafter's came up to inspect and give me an estimate. I was
impressed and decided to give the job to them. Out of courtesy, I
called Dace Kirk to let him know of my decision. He was very unhappy
and talked at length about how sorry I would be if I gave the job to
Aircrafters as they had no experience (he claimed) on Glasairs. I
remember be very turned off by his willingness to criticize his
competition that way but obviously it worked as I changed my mind
again. In early October two of his employees arrived with a pickup and
trailer. We disassembled my pride and joy, loaded it on the trailer and
it
was taken to Phoenix. I finally got a call in early June from someone
there and was told my airplane was done and ready to bring home.
However I was then told that the cosmetic repairs had not been done
as they no longer had a paint shop available. That was the first I had
heard of that fact and if I had known, it certainly would have effected
my decision on who got the job.
Here's the letter I finally wrote a week or so ago and the e-mail that
followed. After faxing the letter to Dace, I found a message on my
answering machine from Dace asking that I call him. I sent an e-mail
immediately stating that I'd like to do our discussions in writing if
it was
all right with him. I guess he is somehow using that as justification
for
putting the whole matter behind him. His e-mail message attached is
the last (and only) response to my complaints. I have many witnesses
as well as pictures and will be glad to share.
Al Hansen
Quincy, CA
August 16, 2001
Dace Kirk
Phoenix Composites
Mesa, AZ
Dace,
I’ve been biting my tongue for several months now determined to avoid
a confrontation
but can do it no longer. I started a thorough inspection of my airplane
several days ago
after finally getting the 40 hours flown off. Each day since then there
have been new
discoveries that make it more and more difficult to maintain my
silence.
It didn’t start
with my recent inspection of course. It started early in June when I
came to your shop to
pick up my plane. I’ll list my complaints in chronological order as
best I
can:
1. On only a cursory inspection in your shop I immediately noticed that
there were
several areas on the left wing above the flap that appeared to be
crushed. I would suppose
that the damage was done while trailering it to your location. It was
either then or while in
your shop. The worst damage location had been roughly repaired but
the others hadn’t.
When I asked one of your guys about it, all I got was a shrug. I think
it
was Stewart who
had warned me on the phone before I came down that my plane was
still “in primer”. I
asked why as I thought from the time that I agreed to let you do the
job that it would be
complete when I got it back. It was explained that you no longer had a
paint shop on the
field. I certainly expected a little more complete repairs than I ended
up
with though.
Besides the crushed trailing edge on the wing, I found an actual chunk
of fiberglass
missing on the fuselage fairing above the left wing flap. Also a
triangular chunk missing
from the front top cowl. None of these were a result of the accident. I
know that for sure
as I took close up digital pictures of the entire plane immediately
after
the accident.
AVEMCO’s rep came up, took pictures and noted all the damage in
detail as well.
2. The second obvious squawk was the fact that my built in fire
extinguisher operating
knob was laying in the luggage compartment. The cable was obviously
broken off at the
knob. When I asked about it, I got another shrug.
3. Next obvious thing was the broken fiberglass around the master
switch on the
instrument panel. I can’t imagine how that damage occurred but the
entire panel will have
to be removed to repair it.
4. While doing a test flight with Jim Karr, we quickly discovered that
my
intercom was
no longer working. After getting the plane home and troubleshooting
the problem, I found
a couple of bad solder connections on two of the headset jacks as well
as one broken wire
that had just been folded back and crudely taped with black electrical
tape.
5. Before departing on the four hour non-stop flight to my home with
only about 18
hours TT on the plane, I decided it would be a good idea to remove the
cowl and have a
look. Upon doing this I found few of the cable bundles secured and just
floating in the air.
One on the left side was actually routed closely between the intake
tube and exhaust
stack. It was actually touching the exhaust and whoever did this
apparently realized that
that could be a problem. Their solution was to wrap a piece of
firesleeve (secured by
plastic cable ties) around the bundle where it contacted the exhaust. I
did insist that this
bundle (which included the plug wires, EGT and cylinder temp probe
wires) be
relocated. This was done though not to the original and proper location
along the bottom
of the heads. Something else for me to do when I get a chance.
6. Fortunately, I noticed too that the grommet in the rear baffling
where the fuel line goes
between the servo and spider was not in place. It was around the fuel
hose but not in the
baffling. The fuel line was laying on the bare metal and free to rub. I
of
course, insisted
that this also be fixed before I left.
7. The next morning after taxiing out and doing my pre-takeoff checks,
I quickly
discovered that I had no navigational avionics working. My KNS 80
wouldn’t power on.
My GPS wouldn’t capture any satellites. My HSI was dead. I taxied
back to your shop.
Heath quickly found that someone had cleanly cut in two the GPS
antenna cable. By the
time that was repaired I decided it would be a good idea to postpone
the trip a day. I was
not enthused about departing in 100+ degree temps and by waiting I
could then let Heath
work on some of the other problems. I took the KNS 80 over to the
local avionics shop.
They found a blown fuse (charge was $49.76). Heath was unable to fix
any of the other
problems but I decided to go the next morning anyway. I suppose an
argument might be
made that some of these problems might be a result of the accident. I
don’t think so.
Everything on my panel had been working with the exception of my
Argus moving map
at the time of the accident. My g-meter registered only 2 1/2 g’s as a
result of the impact.
At any rate, it doesn’t seem to me to be too much to expect that the
avionics be checked
out before calling me and telling me that my plane was ready to fly.
8. After departure the next morning and leveling off, I found that my
STEC 50 AP was
not working either. It would power on but not operate. Altitude hold
indicator wouldn’t
even come on. I later found that there was a wire on the wrong
terminal block position
under the pilot’s seat and two broken wires on the connector between
the pilot’s stick and
under-seat terminal blocks. In addition the 12 wires going from the
terminal block to the
connector were not bundled or tied down in any way. Perhaps that’s
the reason for the
two broken wires. Actually it looked more like the terminals had not
been crimped
properly. I did not install the connector. I had hardwired the stick to
the terminal block.
Someone in your shop added the connector. I have a detailed close up
picture of the mess
if you’d like to see it.
9. After arriving home, I did a walk around and found three of the four
screws that hold
top cowl to bottom cowl behind the prop were missing. I know they
were in place when I
left your shop. The one screw that was still in place was held by only
a
couple threads.
Obviously the screws used were too short.
10. Soon after resuming my test flights, I found that my landing gear
lamp test switch
and my hydraulic pump override switch were both inop. The hydraulic
pump override
switch did however turn the landing gear lamps on. After removing
bulkheads and control
tunnel, I discovered much new wiring back to the hydraulic pump area.
I couldn’t make
sense of most of it so removed it and rewired it to the way I had it
originally. I would
have wondered if maybe your guys knew better than I what they were
doing but one look
at the mess convinced me otherwise. Again the wiring was not bundled
or tied down. A
couple wires were too short causing them to be stretched tightly
around the end of the
control tunnel. I know how abrasive fiberglass is especially on a sharp
corner like this.
The wire already showed signs of wear. Again I have pictures if you are
interested.
11. I am embarrassed to admit that it took so long for me to find it
but
while under the
plane one day I discovered the fact that both screws holding the rear
corners of the belly
panel in place were missing. It seems that the nutplates are missing or
stripped. I haven’t
pulled the belly panel yet to find out which it is. Anyway your
solution
to the problem
was to use aluminum tape to hold the corners in place. Sounds like a
real professional fix,
doesn’t it?
12. At the same time I discovered that the fuselage closeout at the
end of the right flap
was broken loose and barely hanging in place. That was one of the few
things actually
broken in the accident and something you were going to fix. I suspect
you did, just not
very well. It just occurred to me that I don’t have a picture of that
yet. I’ll take care of that
today.
13. I sent my HSI remote gyro to STEC for repair as that’s where the
problem seemed to
be. The gyro was obviously not turning. They returned it after
replacing
a fuse ($235). It
worked for about 15 minutes before blowing again. I expect to spend a
whole bunch of
time wringing all HSI wiring looking for a short before spending more
money on it. After
seeing the quality of your shop’s work to this point, I can guess what
I
might find.
14. When I had the copilot’s seat pan out, I discovered one of the long
screws holding the
belly panel in place had missed the nutplate. Someone had to push
pretty hard to force the
screw past. The threads were actually running on the edge of the
nutplate instead of
through it.
15. Both screws holding the bottom instrument panel to the wing were
missing totally.
16. Two of the small allen head screws holding the VM display to the
panel were/are
missing.
17. Both screws that hold the baffling to the rear cylinders and use
the
special barrel nuts
were/ are missing.
18. My Angle of Attack indicator while never calibrated would go
successfully through
it’s self test. It won’t now. Haven’t got around to troubleshooting it
yet.
19. Panel dimmer system no longer working. It was before.
20. Perhaps this is the discovery that tipped me over the edge
yesterday when I did an
inspection of the rear inside fuselage area. I couldn’t believe my eyes
when I discovered
that someone had ripped the copper ground plane strips for my ELT
antenna from the
fuselage floor. I had not only been flying around carrying a useless
fire
extinguisher
system but an ELT with a range of 10 yards at best. If your guys
couldn’t understand what
the tapes were for, couldn’t they have called me and asked?
21. Today I found that the rubber grommet that protects the two wires
as they pass
through the fibreglass baffling behind the alternator was not in place.
At first I was
willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that it had come
out since the plane
left your shop. Then I realized that of the two wires, only one went
through the grommet.
Obviously the other (smaller) wire had been cut on engine removal and
spliced later. Not
only did the person doing the work not get the smaller wire through the
grommet, he
didn’t bother putting the grommet in the hole leaving both wires to rub
on the raw
fibreglass edge.
22. Also today I noticed that the crankcase vent hose that I had
installed was not
replaced. Mine was black. The new hose is blue. The problem is that
you must have
wanted to get rid of some scraps as the new hose was not long enough
so two pieces of
short hose were spliced together to do the job.
And so it goes and goes and goes.....I can only guess what I’ll find
tomorrow.
This all might not be quite so painful if it weren’t for the fact that
Aircrafters in
Watsonville bid just under $30,000 for the entire job including paint,
new prop and
engine teardown. Considering the damage, I thought that was high. I
paid you $42,492.08.
My airplane is in far worse condition cosmetically now than after the
accident and I
bought the new prop myself for another $6000 (approx). As you might
expect, AVEMCO
is very, very unhappy about this situation. When I told them I had
decided to let your
shop do the job, they said that that was fine but to ask you to do an
estimate as soon as the
plane arrived in your shop (last October). I passed this request on to
you personally a
couple times and Heath and Stewart a couple other times (verbally and
in writing). Well, I
and AVEMCO are still waiting. It would seem you had the blank check in
your hand and
weren’t about to let it go. Examples of the “blank check” attitude
might
be replacement of
my battery and hydraulic pump. Was that really necessary? The
battery wasn’t more than
a month old and it certainly wasn’t damaged in the accident. The same
is true of the
hydraulic pump. The plane only had about 15 hours on it so time on the
pump itself had
to be very low indeed. I had sent it to Stoddard Hamilton for a cleanup
and adjustment
just several months before the accident. It was holding pressure just
fine. The new one
isn’t. It comes on about every 45 seconds. Maybe you’d like to sell me
another new one?
Perhaps I’m a fool but I am concerned about the amount of money the
insurance
companies have to pay for claims like this. It’s easy for me to
visualize
a time when the
industry will decide that they just cannot afford to write policies on
this
type of airplane
any longer.
Any Comments?
By the way, I still haven’t received those two little screws for the VM
display you assured
me you’d send nearly four weeks ago. I sent another e-mail reminder a
couple weeks ago
and I called several days ago. Heath told John to tell me that he’d
call
me right back.
Haven’t heard from him either. Guess I’d better look elsewhere for the
screws now, right?
Al Hansen
Quincy, CA
Subject: Glasair status report
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:25:14 -0700
From: "Robert Dace Kirk"
To: "Alhansen"
Al: Well, sorry to hear that your so distressed that you can't talk to
me, it makes things much more
difficult to bring a satisfactory solution forward for you. I will
address
only one issue at this time and
that is of the estimate that was done by Air Crafters, it was that
only,
an estimate of the work and they
as I, had know idea of how extensive the damage truly was until
someone started to work the project.
So smoke and mirrors and TALK does not impress me one little bit, it
those who actually stand up
and accomplish something that is the true test of ones metal. As for
all
other issues that your fax
listed it is my opinion some have merit and others do not, but until
your
ready to work with me for a
positive resolution, I suppose your right there is no need to talk.
Until
then Dace Kirk
Fitzair4
they are to be between you and the repair shop, NOT the general public
E-Mail. Our bigest problems in the last 21 years has been with the Insurance
Co.
Larry
Alhansen
What if the shop won't talk to you? Maybe if some of the past victims of Phoenix
Composites had gone public, I wouldn't have gotten my damn airplane trashed by
them.
Al Hansen
Greg Siemon
Sorry to hear about the accident with you pride and joy. I did not build my
GIII and I know upset I would be of something happened to it. So I can only
imagine how you must feel after all the years of blood, sweat and tears.
As for Dace Kirk and Phoenix Composites I have had nothing but very good
experiences with Dace, his company and all his employees especially Heath.
I can imagine that Dace was not happy to get your letter (some strong
language). He did admit that some items had merit and I am sure that he
would have fixed them given a chance. After all Dace is a businessman and
he understands that one unhappy customer will out weigh 100 happy ones.
I am in Santa Barbara, CA. If you're ever in the neighborhood drop in, I
love to meet other Glasair owners. Especially the ones that have the
courage and talent to build their own.
--
Greg Siemon
gsi...@home.con
RobertR237
(Fitzair4) writes:
? If and when the repair shop does not respond to the customer it's sometimes
necessary to take your complaints public to get their attention. Keeping it
quiet does nothing to help your fellow aviator avoid the same pitfalls. Would
you have made the same comment if the post had been a positive review on your
work? I doubt it but you can't have it both ways.
Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
Kevin O'Brien
>
>Maybe if some of the past victims of Phoenix
>Composites had gone public, I wouldn't have gotten my damn airplane
trashed by
>them.
Al,
sounds like you and Dace Kirk are definitely on the outs. You might need
to consider an mediator or go-between -- someone you trust. Maybe
some luminary from the Glasair community who knows you both. There
is a wall of suspicion on both sides now that will interfere with the
possibility of either of you being satisfied.
In this message you refer to "past victims" and in the previous one you
imply that there is some history with Phoenix Composites. Has this
company been discussed at length in the Glasair group, and are there
other customers as furious as you? Or are you the Lone Ranger out
there?
From the list of squawks on your letter it sounds like you have been
wronged. Even Kirk admits that some of your beefs have merit.
But remember, you are where you are. There's no going back to where
you were before... you can only move on from this point. Calm down and
think about what you want. (I bet it's your plane restored to the status quo
ante, isn't it?) Now start to think about possible routes to do that. Then
figure out what each approach will cost you -- both in money, which is one
thing, but in time and grief or "aggro."
You have given Kirk a comprehensive punch list of squawks. I would say
the ball is in his court at this point and he really ought to give you a point
by point answer. Then you can synthesise points where you agree (maybe
he has a case on some things... maybe the battery wouldn't hold a charge
or had damage you didn't note, for instance. Maybe the paint shop closed
after he bid on your job -- can you hold him responsible for a third party
folding?). And narrow down the points where you disagree.
Finally, don't let the insurance Johnnies whip you into a frenzy. You have
enough problems without internalising the problems of Avemco too. If they
are owed something by Kirk it is between them and Kirk -- why take on
their load? It's not Al Hansen's problem, so don't let them fob their
problems off on you. Tell the Avemco adjuster the truth -- you are having a
hard time with Kirk and can't intercede for him, he's on his own. Avemco
are big boys and you will tie your guts in knots worrying about them for no
purpose.
It's hard to not be emotional about our planes but this is exactly the point
where you must not be emotional, you must be clear and focused on your
goals in this matter.
Hope you accept this in the spirit it's offered -- friendly advice.
cheers
-=K=-
Rule #3: Faith can move mountains. Your aeroplane cannot.
Dave O
fitz...@aol.com (Fitzair4) wrote:
>We have a shop that does work on composite aircraft. If you have any problems,
>they are to be between you and the repair shop, NOT the general public
LOL! I don't know which I find funnier, your message or the way you
phrased it. I'm sure that most shops would rather not have news of
their poor performance or poor service spread across Usenet and
archived for years in Deja/Google. One way to limit such bad
publicity is to do the job right the first time or do everything
within reason to make it right after the fact. If the original
poster's complaint is taken at face value, and I have not attempted to
verify the facts, then the shop in question failed on both counts and
then some. If that is indeed the case then the poster had every
justification to publish his experience.
It should be noted, though, that one shouldn't expect to necessarily
get a wholly accurate picture of a company's performance, or their
product's performance, by merely reading the published complaints of
dissatisfied customers -- especially when such complaints represent a
statistically insignificant portion of the company's customer base.
Dave O
James Lloyd
and also called to the attention of the proper gov. people.The way his
letter,thereis no excuse andthe company should be destroyed by any means
possible.The sooner we stop accepting this garbage,the sooner they will
change or just go away.
Alhansen
interest.
Let me respond to some of your points.
> sounds like you and Dace Kirk are definitely on the outs. You might need
> to consider an mediator or go-between -- someone you trust. Maybe
> some luminary from the Glasair community who knows you both. There
> is a wall of suspicion on both sides now that will interfere with the
> possibility of either of you being satisfied.
Forget about the mediator. I didn't post my message to get my airplane
fixed
properly by Phoenix Composites. That airplane will never see the inside
of that
shop again as long as I own it. Dace has refused to try in any way to
justify or
explain away even one of my complaints. Any discussions from this point
on are
likely to be between his attorney and the insurance company. And
hopefully between
Dace and the FAA.
>
> In this message you refer to "past victims" and in the previous one you
> imply that there is some history with Phoenix Composites. Has this
> company been discussed at length in the Glasair group, and are there
> other customers as furious as you? Or are you the Lone Ranger out
> there?
When I wrote the letter, I was convinced that I was the "Lone Ranger" as
you put
it though I was also convinced that any shop that did to my airplane
what it did
and then the owner take the attitude that he did had to have plenty of
other
dissatisfied customers. Since the posting, I am finding out that I
didn't know how
right I was in that assumption.
>
> . maybe the battery wouldn't hold a charge
> or had damage you didn't note, for instance. Maybe the paint shop closed
> after he bid on your job -- can you hold him responsible for a third party
> folding?). And narrow down the points where you disagree.
I understand that there is always two sides to every disagreement. It's
real hard
for me to imagine a legitimate defense for Phoenix Composites though in
this case.
Not once in the eight months did they call me to let me know of
unexpected repairs
needed or to let me know that they no longer had a paint shop. I listed
some 20
items, I think. If I had wanted to list the more trivial examples of
shoddy
workmanship, I could have listed another 20 or more...and I'm still
finding
things.
>
> Finally, don't let the insurance Johnnies whip you into a frenzy. You have
> enough problems without internalising the problems of Avemco too. If they
> are owed something by Kirk it is between them and Kirk -- why take on
> their load? It's not Al Hansen's problem, so don't let them fob their
> problems off on you. Tell the Avemco adjuster the truth -- you are having a
> hard time with Kirk and can't intercede for him, he's on his own. Avemco
> are big boys and you will tie your guts in knots worrying about them for no
> purpose.
With all due respect, the insurance company has not been whipping me
into a
frenzy. If I've had any complaint with AVEMCO, it's that they were too
willing to
just roll over and pay the bills. I was paying Kirk out of my own pocket
and then
submitting the bills to AVEMCO. They questioned almost nothing. I didn't
object
because I wanted my damn airplane back before things landed in court.
When this is
all settled it will be me trying to whip them into a frenzy and do
something about
the screw job they just got done to them.
Regards,
Al Hansen
>
>
>
wmbjk
"Alhansen" <alha...@jps.net> wrote in message news:3B87B2CD...@jps.net...
> I'm sure this posting will not be well received by some of the devotees
>
> of Dace Kirk and Phoenix Composites. It is however, a story that needs
> to be told. If it saves just one poor dumb bastard like myself from the
>
> frustration and unpleasantness that I'm now experiencing it will be
> worth it.
>
> The attached letter and e-mail are self explanatory if you have the
> background:
snipped long tale of poor workmanship
My sympathies on the accident and the ensuing repair saga Al. And thanks for
posting about your experience. With such a long list of squawks and poor
business practice, I'm amazed that Phoenix Composites was unable to agree that
future communications should be in writing. It would seem that at least some of
the problems you ran into were the result of a lack of communication, so moving
the discussion to e-mail would have been in the best interest of you both. I'm
also surprised that Dace hasn't shipped you the old battery and hydraulic pump.
If they were indeed scrap, then for the cost of shipping them he could prove to
you that they needed replacement. Did the bill include a charge for a totally
new pump, or just a rebuild? Hopefully things will go more smoothly with
Aircrafters. I've only had occasion to deal with them on one small item, but
their performance, and particularly their level of communication, was excellent.
Wayne