Epoxy Aluminum
RobertR237
(John Reil) writes:
>
>Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and so
>eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
>
>
The Grumman Tiger was an example of just that. The problem is that the
materials must be prepared correctly and the adheasives have to be carefully
controlled.
Bob Reed http://robertr237.virtualave.net/
KIS Cruiser in progress...Oshkosh 2000 by Gosh! or a 2001 Oshkosh Odessy ;-)
"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and Slide on the
Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)
bkuy...@my-deja.com
>Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and
>so eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
As Bob Reed poins out, the most common example of bonded aluminum in the
general aviation fleet is the Grumman AA-1 and AA-5 aircraft. These
aircraft use high-strength adhesives that require ovens and autoclaves
and other heavy-duty machinery. That makes it a bit hard for even the
Resourceful Builder to use Grumman's bonding techniques in the home
workshop. Not impossible, mind you; I believe that there are shops that
repair these aircraft using the original processes. Just hard.
One other rather common example of bonded-aluminum aircraft are the
HP-16, HP-18, and RS-15 sailplanes designed by Dick Schreder. These
aircraft were designed to be constructed in the home workshop, and do
not require the use of troublesome autoclavery-type machinery.
The wings of these sailplanes use closely-spaced PVC foam ribs that are
bonded to the aluminum wing spar and aluminum wing skins with Hysol
EA9430 (new) or Hysol EA9410 (old) epoxy. The closely-spaced foam ribs
support the skin very well, resulting in a very smooth wing. Collisions
with fence posts, phone poles, a flag pole, and one
drunk/naked/PCP-crazed driver have demonstated this construction
technique to be excellent at localizing damage to small,
easily-repairable sections.
For more information about the HP- and RS-series sailplanes, see Wayne
Paul's Schreder Designs web site at:
http://stimpy.acofi.edu/~wpaul/
Regards
RK
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Frank van der Hulst
> >Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and
> >so eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
I dunno about *most* rivets, but I'm sure many could be eliminated.
> As Bob Reed poins out, the most common example of bonded aluminum in the
> general aviation fleet is the Grumman AA-1 and AA-5 aircraft. These
> aircraft use high-strength adhesives that require ovens and autoclaves
> and other heavy-duty machinery. That makes it a bit hard for even the
> Resourceful Builder to use Grumman's bonding techniques in the home
> workshop. Not impossible, mind you; I believe that there are shops that
> repair these aircraft using the original processes. Just hard.
It might be worth asking the question on the RV-list, or checking the
RV-list archives.
Back when I started building my RV-6, someone in the USA (don't recall
his name) announced his intention of bonding the elevator, rudder, and
aileron stiffeners on with some new-fangled adhesive. I thought about it
too, but decided to let him be the prototype tester.
Given my speed of construction, he's probably already flown off his 25.
Frank.
--
fra...@ee.cit.ac.nz Frank van der Hulst
My home page is http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~frankvdh
fc
But aluminium foam bonding are known technics.
In france, the MC15 Cri Cri (Criket in US i think) has wings built like
that. foam ribs glued to a alu wing spar, and alu skin glued to the ribs.
the skin is one part.
And this since the seventies.
The MC100 (ban bi) bigger evolution (two seats, rotax 80 hp), has the same
kind of wings. the wing size is limited to the size of a alu sheet. 8 feet
long, 2 feet cord. the span is extented by composite winglets. the cord is
extented by a full span flaperon. BTW, the flaperon ,the vertical and
horizontal tail is also built with foam ribs.
The procress is partially extented to the frame.
the aft part of the frame has foam members glued to the skin.
But this does not seem to shorten building time.
The building time from plans of the MC100 is rumored between 2000 and 10000
hours. 3000 to 5000 being the norm. The plane is in the class of the zenith
601, sonex, KR2. with one slight diff. the cruise speed is a verified 160
mph. max speed is a verified 190 mph stall speed is 50 mph.
ft.
John Reil a écrit dans le message
<12375-38...@newsd-291.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Wayne Paul
>Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and so
>eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
The RS-15, HP-16 and HP-18 sailplanes designed by Richard Schreder in the
70s used this technique in their wing construction. Details and associated
tip can be found in the in the 'Homebuilders' Hall' article found on the
"Construction Tips" link of http://stimpy.acofi.edu/~wpaul.
The main advantage in this technique is the smoothness of the wings which is
very important in laminar flow airfoils.
Wayne
Mike
>Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and so
>eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
>
As several others have already mentioned, adhesivly bonding aluminum
can be done, but only with proper surface preperation.
Andrew C. Marshall authored an excellant book entitled "Compisite
Basics" , in which he devotes one chapter to "Adhesives and Bonding".
This is a very detailed chapter which explaines the many steps needed
to ensure a safe bond. My 3rd edition of this book also contains a
copy of a paper writen in 1984 by Otis Holt, entitled "No Nore
Riviets", which also covers the subject of adhesive bonding of
aluminum for homebuilt aircraft.
I believe you can still purchase this book through:
Marshall Consulting
720 Appaloosa Drive
Walnut Creek, CA 94596
I don't recall what I paid for my copy, but it's been valuable
resourse to me.
Good Luck,
Mike
highflyer
>
> Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and so
> eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
Of course it is. The Grumman American did exactly that. I had the
opportunity to consult on some production problems with American
Aviation
back in the late sixties.
To do so with the reliability and safety that you need for aircraft
structures WILL require some processes and inspections that are NOT
practical for home building.
While it can, indeed be done, for home construction you are really much
better advised to use rivets. It is pretty hard to beat the ease of
construction and the quality of the finished product of a properly
designed, riveted airframe such as the RV series. That is assuming,
of course, that you wish to build in aluminum. :-)
--
HighFlyer "If god had meant man to fly aluminum airplanes, there would
be
aluminum trees!"
Highflight Aviation Services
highflyer
>
> Betcha pro-seal would work. I believe Boeing uses a lot of it!
>
Having sealed and resealed more than a few fuel tanks using variants
of "pro-seal" there is NO WAY I would fly in an airplane held together
with "pro-seal." Besides, it would be MUCH easier to just rivet the
darn thing. Not to mention a LOT less expensive.
--
HighFlyer
Highflight Aviation Services
KernHend
>Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and
>so eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
_____________________
Let's see now: The problem for the homebuilder would be closing the joint
until the epoxy adhesive sets. Since most aircraft seams are "blind" meaning
you can't practically put a clamp on them; you'd have to find a way to hold the
seams together until the adhesive cured. In all likelyhood this would involve
some type of process where holes were drilled along the seamline and self
tapping screws were used to pull the edges together. These could be removed
after the glue set but then one would have a problem with the holes that
remained. A solution might be to drive a flush rivet into the hole and then
use a little epoxy/microballoon mixture to cover the rivet and "fair" the area
in. So there you are! A riveted and glued airplane weighing far more than
rivets alone.
Rather than go through all this one might be better off building a composite
(epoxy, vinylester, etc.) airplane in the first place.
Kern
Glasair N33KH (few rivets used in its construction)
S07 (Bend, OR)
Orval Fairbairn
> Betcha pro-seal would work. I believe Boeing uses a lot of it!
>
> Shelly
>
> John Reil wrote:
> >
> > Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and so
> > eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
ProSeal is not a structural adhesive. It is only a sealant. If you build
using ProSeal as an adhesive, it is about like using bubble gum.
bru...@spacestar.net
easy to work wity, self-hardening synthetic clays that mimic what
epoxies do. Super strong and adhesive, 0% shrinkage, waterproof, can be
tooled and painted, etc. More info at www.avesstudio.com
Good luck...Chuck
In article <380BB7A6...@ee.cit.ac.nz>,
Frank van der Hulst <fra...@ee.cit.ac.nz> wrote:
> bkuy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >Is it posible to build aluminum aircraft using epoxy adhesives and
> > >so eliminate most rivets? Any thqghts much apreciated.
>