Thinking about buying a Bulldog
karied4
suggestions about this plane?
Dave
years. What do you want to know?
If you are considering an ex-RAF one you need to be aware that they are
all high hours and have a fatigue limitation on the spar joint - that's
why they are cheap. A good Bulldog with reasonable hours, full avionics
and that hasn't been through the RAF is probably worth 50-60kGBP whereas
the ex-RAF ones were sold for 10-15k GBP and now seem to being
advertised on the UK register at 20-30kGBP.
What country are you in?
--
Dave S
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"karied4" <kar...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Cl3B8.231911$CH1.155131@sccrnsc02...
Jonathan Burke
karied4 wrote:
> I am thinking about buying a Scottish Aviation Bulldog, anyone have
> suggestions about this plane?
A friend of mine at my airport (KDVO) has one which he enjoys a great
deal. He does not use it for aerobatics, though, as he's concerned
about the fatigue limitations on the main spar. There is a strain gage
counter that apparently counts the number of times 2G's are exceeded as
when the plane was built there were defined limits on 'G' loading. The
number of cycles mentioned (originally) was absurdly low, in the 400
cycle range which the boys in the RAF apparently flew right through. The
cycle limit was then raised to 800, and then higher, I believe. The RAF
had someone design a spar fix for this problem but was thought to be
cheaper to buy brand new trainers instead- and subsequently put the
fleet up for sale in the 1997 - 1998 years. (This is where my friends
plane comes from- he bought his from the RAF and imported it into the US
in 2000.)
It's unclear whether this spar limitation is really necessary- but it is
a little more than alarming when one goes to pull the stick back and
being uncertain if the structure will follow you through the maneuver.
Neat little ship otherwise- but I'll stick to acro in my S1S, thank you.
- Jonathan Burke
karied4
I'm looking at has 8500+ hours on them. Here are the details provided by the
owners of the two I'm currently looking at. I don't want to buy a plane that
I can't do aerobatics in, if these are at the end of their life, then I'll
pass. I'm in the US. Thanks for the information, it's greatly appreciated.
My other option is a Zlin 242 but finding a used one in the US has been very
hard.
Plane 1
IO-360 Lycoming with fuel injection and inverted oil, high compression
pistons
TT: 8511, engine 1034, Fatigue Index 102.7
Condition rated: 8-9
Damage history: none
Certified: yes in UK, not yet in USA - we spoke about this
Any outstanding ADs: all ADs are cleared
Avionics:
Kollsman encoding altimeter
Magnavox ARC 164 UHF comms (not legal for use)
Narco ILS/VOR nav receiver type 825
Narco VOR/ILS/DME indicator
Narco SSR transponder AT150
Basically you have glideslope with DME and a single com
Prop condition: 200 hours remaining
Price: $65,000 including 5 hours training
Plane 2
THE PRICE IS; $57,500.
NO AD'S AND FRESH LICENSE 3 FLIGHT HRS. AGO. 900 HRS. SMOH , 500 SMOH PROP ,
9000 TT .
NO DAMAGE HISTORY , BENDIX 720 COM/ NARCO ENCODING TRANSPONDER , NARCO NAV.
WITH GS AND DME BUILT IN NAV HEAD. INTERCOM WITH TWO PA-11-80 HEADSETS.
CUSTOM FULL CANOPY COVER AND COWLING PLUGS.
CONDITION ; A STRONG EIGHT OR NINE FOR CONDITION RATING ; MINE WAS THE
VERY LAST ONE OF THE ONE HUNDRED SOLD AND THE BEST THEY HAD TO OFFER.SEE
ATTACHED PHOTO'S, THANKS , BOB VAN BUSKIRK
Thanks,
Karie
"Dave" <nom...@hursley.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:ab69vm$f6mes$1...@ID-79399.news.dfncis.de...
Dave
number) was imposed after British Aerospace (owners of the type
certificate) tested two airframes and had them both start to fail
"shortly after" 5000 hours.
The spar mod is a one-shot which extends the airframe life to 8760
hours, it was initially estimated to cost 20kGBP but I believe the price
has fallen slightly recently.
The RAF flew most of them to slightly over the BAe specified fatigue
index and then sold them.
--
Dave S
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the newsgroup)
"Jonathan Burke" <j...@argyle-design.com> wrote in message
news:3CD6C1D3...@argyle-design.com...
Jonathan Burke
a specific number of hours on the airframe. I believe the issue was the
'fatigue index' which had some kind of couter. It is this index to which
I'm refering- not hours flown.
-Jonathan Burke
karied4
all), I'm pretty sure that most of the current Bulldogs for sale are at the
end of their aerobatic life. I definitely want something that I feel
comfortable and safe when pulling back the stick. I thought the Bulldog
would be it but it just wouldn't be a prudent buy. I really want something
that will last for years to come.
I've looked at a ton of planes and I keep going back to the Zlin 242 but
these planes are rare in the US. Especially a slightly used one that has a
reasonable price tag.
Thanks,
Karie (still looking for a plane) Daniel
Seattle, WA
"Jonathan Burke" <j...@argyle-design.com> wrote in message
news:3CD88277...@argyle-design.com...
Dave
(www.pilotmag.co.uk), you could contact British Aerospace or you could
contact the "Beagle Pup and Bulldog Club" (arwr...@avnet.co.uk).
I don't have all the documentation handy but I think the ones with FI
meters were limited to FI 117 before the spar mod was required - but it
may have been lower.
It's a very pleasant aircraft to fly and aerobat and will do just about
any positive manouevre but isn't terribly good at the negative stuff
(other than hesitation rolls, slow rolls, ROT and rolling circles).
AFAIK it won't snap or spin inverted. It's spin resistant but will spin
if sufficiently abused, the spin recovery needs to be done correctly -
make sure you have a thorough check-out.
--
Dave S
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the newsgroup)
"karied4" <kar...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:9jIB8.241863$CH1.181600@sccrnsc02...
Dave
limitation relates primarily to those without fatigue meters (Hong Kong,
Botswana, Ghana, and ???).
BAe sent out several notices with the details and required mods, I'm
sorry I can't refer to the actual documents and be more precise but I
can't find them at the moment!
I'll put a pointer to this thread on uk.rec.aviation, maybe somebody
there has easy access to the docs and the facts rather than relying on
my poor memory.
--
Dave S
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the newsgroup)
"Jonathan Burke" <j...@argyle-design.com> wrote in message
news:3CD88277...@argyle-design.com...
Sajal Sengupta
The spar life is 5000 hours. Now, this is not "actual" hours. The RAF fitted
theirs
with fatigue meters. A life of 5000 hours is equivalent to a fatigue index
of 114.0.
Once the planes reach this on the UK civil register, they are effectively
grounded.
The RAF checked them and decided, contrary to British Aerospace, to run the
fatigue index to 116.0. The fatigue meter is in the centre console between
the two
seats. You need to take readings after every flight and every so often send
them off
to BAe who will calculate the new index. There are meters for -1.5g -0.5g
+0.25g
and so on up to 6g. My meters haven't moved since I've owned the aircraft
but I don't
do aeros or pull much g.
A fatigue index of 102.7 is fairly good. Mine had 110.7 when I bought it.
If the aircraft is not fitted with a fatigue meter (some non-RAF ones) then
the hours
life stands, as it is assumed that a fairly high proportion of their life is
taken up pulling
lots of g. Better safe than sorry as they say.
Anyway, on the US experimental register there is no necessity to ground them
when
a F.I. of 114 is reached. How much you trust your aircraft not to come apart
is then
up to you and your inspection schedule. My mechanic has never seen any
evidence
of cracking in the aircraft he's handled but I guess BAe (or ex Scottish
Aviation) did.
The spar modification mentioned is not currently available. The estimated
price for
this is about £24k including all labour. Two planes were done, XX515 in the
UK,
currently at Bourne Park, and a Malaysian one. BAe say they will put the
kits into
production if there is a demand of >10. This may take some time, and a
considerable
drop in price before people are willing to commit. I certainly don't have
that sort of
money lying around. The mod extends the fatigue life to 200.
The prices in the US are ridiculous, they go for about £26k-£28k in the UK,
and yes,
there are currently a couple for sale in the back of the UK GA mags (Pilot
or Flyer).
The RAF sold them from anything from £8.5k for a time expired one, to £20k
odd
for a fairly good hours one (all +VAT + auction fees if bought in auction).
Actually I know of a time expired one that the owner would possibly be
interested
in selling in the US! (F.I. of 114 expired that is, remember the RAF took
them to 116)
All the RAF ones have the inverted oil system fitted, which gives (if I
remember
correctly) 12 seconds of inverted flight.
It's a lovely aircraft to fly. As for spin resistant, well, hmm. They don't
particularly
drop a wing in the stall, but when they do spin, they do it quite well.
There's been a
fair bit of controversy lately in the UK GA press about this, with Alan
Cassidy, a
prominent competition aerobatics pilot stating that if the spin gets beyond
3 turns
and goes "accelerated" (?) then it might take a bit of power to recover. It
will
snap (flick) roll, and how to do it is in the POH (as are most of the other
aerobatic
manoevers) but the RAF prohibited it for fatigue life reasons.
The article in Pilot magazine was mentioned...it was March 2000, and the
aircraft
featured, XX638, the black and yellow one, is now mine! Now civil registered
as
G-DOGG, but with the RAF colour scheme and registration retained.
Picture here (not me flying, or my website):
http://wargame.com/images/air/image3.html
If anyone else knows any more, or if I've made an error in anything I've
said, please
post, I'm interested too, being an owner of such an aircraft!
Regards,
Paul