Guage/Thickness of Auto Body Steel?
Bernard O'Dell
thickness or guage of auto body steel-ref "Honda quality",-
where I mentioned that the thickness or guage of steel used in
the manufacture of my 85 GLI was ?? a certain guage-a lot thicker
than the example used, a Subaru.
A dealer suggested that I poke my finger into a fender or hood of
the GLI, and try the same thing with a Subaru, -I did, and there
was a considerable difference--someone on the net said the same
thing with his GLI- he said "he had to sit on the roof to
install the antenna----whereas the roof of the honda "collapsed"--
The point of this discussion is
Do any of you engineers out there know what guages of auto body steel
that various manufactures use??--
Is there a significant difference between American, Japanese, German,
and other manufacturers?
I also used the example that my 32 Ford Fender were so thick, that
you could roller skate on them. I also realize that the 32 Ford
would not "gradually crumple", and therby cushion the occupants, from
possible injury.
There are obviously pros and cons to this.
Like metal should "crumple" give way progressively, to protect
the occupants etc.---
I've noticed a lot of accidents where it appeared that Hondas, Toyotas,
and especially Datsun/Nissan cars just seemed they were made of tin, and
collapsed--kinda of scary.
It would be interesting if American, or German cars were made of
thicker steel, as opposed to Japanese cars.
I would also assume that you could save a helluva lot of money by
building cars with "thinner" guages of steel. That would make the unit
costs of each a lot "cheaper" in more ways than one.
Most consumers certainly are not aware of this, if in fact, it is significant.
I wonder if there is any correlation between the safety of passengers,
and the quality of steel (guage/thickness) that is used in its
manufacture to protect them?
Is there any truth to this?
Graham Sewell
>Is there a significant difference between American, Japanese, German,
>and other manufacturers?
>There are obviously pros and cons to this.
>Like metal should "crumple" give way progressively, to protect
>the occupants etc.---
>I've noticed a lot of accidents where it appeared that Hondas, Toyotas,
>and especially Datsun/Nissan cars just seemed they were made of tin, and
>collapsed--kinda of scary.
>It would be interesting if American, or German cars were made of
>thicker steel, as opposed to Japanese cars.
>I would also assume that you could save a helluva lot of money by
>building cars with "thinner" guages of steel. That would make the unit
>costs of each a lot "cheaper" in more ways than one.
As well as being cheaper to produce these lighter, thinner cars, they
are also more economic to run because they use less fuel. However,
because aerodynamics are not brilliant on production cars, they suffer
more from cross-winds and the like (again because of the lower mass).
So all in all, the lighter cars are certainly cheaper to produce,
cheaper to run (or so theory goes), but likely to suffer far more damage
in an impact which is more in turn more probable due to greater
instability.
The exception to the damage theory is if collision bars are installed in
suitable places like doors. Personally, I would like to see roll-cages
installed properly in cars, so that the occupant are protected from all
angles. I do realise that this makes getting into and out of the car a
little more awkward, but that would be a suitable price for safety.
Mart Molle
[Speculation about relative thickness of steel panels in Hondas, Toyotas
and Datsun/Nissan cars versus other manufacturers, based on a "finger poke
test", and relative levels of collision damage deleted for brevity...]
>Is there a significant difference between American, Japanese, German,
>and other manufacturers?
>I also used the example that my 32 Ford Fender were so thick, that
>you could roller skate on them. I also realize that the 32 Ford
>would not "gradually crumple", and therby cushion the occupants, from
>possible injury.
>There are obviously pros and cons to this.
>Like metal should "crumple" give way progressively, to protect
>the occupants etc.---
There is more to this steel issue than just thinner guage => cheaper to
build. Of course, thinner certainly means lighter, which is A Good Thing
in these fuel efficiency concious times.
However, you've entirely missed another degree of freedom here, namely
the steel *alloy* used. I remember discussions back in the 70s (in Car
and Driver, or Road & Track, or similar magazine) about the superior panel
fits in typical Japanese cars in comparison to American cars, which told of
the stiffness of the metal alloys used. Evidently, the Japanese chose a
much softer alloy, which is easier to bend to a precise shape (and hence
gives more consistent joints around the hood and doors) but produced a
weaker, more flexible structure. My wife's first generation Accord hatchback
certainly fits this hypothesis, since the doors are always wiggling around
in their openings as you drive -- and have since the car was new. (The
rubber door seals slide around on the door pillars so much that they've
rubbed all the paint off the pillars where they touch, and make really
distracting rubbing noice next to your ears, especially when we foolishly
tried Armor-All'ing them...)
Another area that was pioneered by American manufactures is the use of
high-strength steel alloys (instead of more expensive aluminum) to save
weight. In particular, one of the big claims to fame of the GM X-cars
(Chevy Citation, etc.) when they came out in 1980 was the first application
of high-strength steel in a big way. (No flames, please, about the crummy
brakes because of a last minute marketing decision to change the handbrake
design...)
Mart L. Molle
Computer Systems Research Institute
University of Toronto
Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
(416)978-4928
John Davison
panels) adds greatly to the stiffness in the panel....
A cylinder is much stronger than the same sheet laid out flat.
A currugated cylinder is even stronger.
The design of the panel has a lot to do with whether or not it resists the
pressure of a finger or someone sitting on it....
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John_D...@ncsu.edu | "Give me six lines written by the most honorable
NCSU College of Textiles | of men and I will find in them an excuse
Student Computing Lab | to hang him." -- Cardinal Richelieu
DoD # 0476 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romuald Krzywanski
1991 or 1992 Festiva or 1992 Colt 100 ?
I'm thinking of buying one of them and I wonder
what their owners think of them.
Thanks!
Alan Edward Petrillo
Speaking of thick sheetmetal... a 120 pound girl walked up the hood of my 1973
Imperial without the metal "giving" at all. Credit has to go equally to
the really thick steel, the two layers of thick steel, and its dome-like
shape.
Try that on your Honda!
Bob Blackshaw
>Previous discussions have been discussed with regard to the
>thickness or guage of auto body steel-ref "Honda quality",-
>where I mentioned that the thickness or guage of steel used in
>the manufacture of my 85 GLI was ?? a certain guage-a lot thicker
>than the example used, a Subaru.
>A dealer suggested that I poke my finger into a fender or hood of
>the GLI, and try the same thing with a Subaru, -I did, and there
>was a considerable difference--someone on the net said the same
>thing with his GLI- he said "he had to sit on the roof to
>install the antenna----whereas the roof of the honda "collapsed"--
>The point of this discussion is
>Do any of you engineers out there know what guages of auto body steel
>that various manufactures use??--
>Is there a significant difference between American, Japanese, German,
>and other manufacturers?
Well, here is an example or case history. Last friday night my 89
Probe was rear-ended by a 91 Honda Civic LX. Typical Maryland driver
test, we were coming up on a light that had just gone green. However,
no one leaves fast because too many people run the red. We slowed as
the six or seven cars ahead came up behind those waiting at the
light, then everyone started accelerating quite quickly. Suddenly,
some bloody-minded idiot up front jammed on the brakes. Lots of
rubber left on the pavement, but everyone stopped - except the
poor soul behind me and BANG!
Just got off the phone with this poor lady. Estimate on the Probe
- $264.00, estimate on the Honda - $1400.00 and they still are not
certain about the radiator. The Probe had scratches on the rear
bumper and a ding in the spare wheel well. The Honda had its hood
pushed back - sticking up 4-5 inches in the middle, grill gone, etc.
What of course I would really like to do is find the a**hole who
caused the whole affair and wring his/her neck, or run the Probe
over it, I'm not particular. I have never met so many incompetent
drivers in my life as this region has. 85% of them do not even
qualify to drive a tricycle, let alone a car. The politics must
be at the heart of it. Slow Democrats stay to the left - slow
republicans stay to the right - and undecided voters are like
horse manure - all over the road.
Oh yeah - the seat back did not give way.
Case history #zxy999
REB
James W. Swonger
tail comes up, rear car nose goes down under heavy braking - so the rear
car gets the bumper (or gas tank, if front car is a Pinto) jammed into the
radiator and stylework. It's not surprising to see that sort of damage
difference.
Even leaving out Honda's propensity to gouge on parts.
--
##########################################################################
#Irresponsible rantings of the author alone. Any resemblance to persons #
#living or dead then yer bummin. May cause drowsiness. Alcohol may inten-#
#sify this effect. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Billy!#
Jeff Chilton
> In <15...@oasys.dt.navy.mil> od...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'Dell) writes:
> Well, here is an example or case history. Last friday night my 89
> Probe was rear-ended by a 91 Honda Civic LX. Typical Maryland driver
> Just got off the phone with this poor lady. Estimate on the Probe
> - $264.00, estimate on the Honda - $1400.00 and they still are not
This is not a fair comparison. Generally speaking, the car in the
rear will eat the bumper of a swiftly decelerating vehicle ahead.
If you want a real test, find a 91 Honda Civic LX slowing down for a
lite, and center punch him from the rear. You'll probably find a
pretty good difference in repair costs, with yours being higher.
Especially with the way the front of the Probe is designed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
~ JEFFREY K. CHILTON -- (just blowin' smoke) :8^}
~ RICOH CRC 2882 SAND HILL RD #115 MENLO PARK, CA 94025
~ disclaimer: My employer doesn't even know what I think
~ So, how could they condone this?
Graham Sewell
> rear will eat the bumper of a swiftly decelerating vehicle ahead.
> If you want a real test, find a 91 Honda Civic LX slowing down for a
> lite, and center punch him from the rear. You'll probably find a
> pretty good difference in repair costs, with yours being higher.
> Especially with the way the front of the Probe is designed.
Just a counter example, I witnessed a head on cllision at low speed
between a Range Rover and a Japanese saloon (can't remeber what type).
The damage to the Range Rover was a couple of scratches a a broken
headlight, the damage to the Japanese car was front wing, bonnet,
grille, headlamp, indicators, probably radiator. There was obviously a
difference in the way that the fronts of these cars were build.
Just my thoughts....
Graham Sewell Tel +44 71 728 4851
Unix TP and Database Unit Fax +44 71 728 4883
PP506, Lion House, 72-75 Red Lion St, LONDON. WC1R 4RT
g...@btcase.bt.co.uk
--
Graham Sewell Tel +44 71 728 4851
Unix TP and Database Unit Fax +44 71 728 4883
PP506, Lion House, 72-75 Red Lion St, LONDON. WC1R 4RT
g...@btcase.bt.co.uk
Michael A. Shaffer
> rear will eat the bumper of a swiftly decelerating vehicle ahead.
I'll say. I had my F350 for a week when a guy in a Honda decided that
I should have made a right turn on red even though there was traffic
comming. So he tried to give me a push. You should have seen what my
step bumper did to the front of his car.
So I got out and looked at my bumper, turned and looked at the remains
of his hood, grill, headlights. I sure didn't report it.
mike
Bob Schneider
>"Walking on the Hood"---Don't try that on a Subaru--
No kidding! I leaned on my (now previous) Suburu with one hand to
balance myself as I reached up for something. I dented the hood
(BTW, I'm only 160lbs).
While were on the subject of Japanese steel, has anyone noticed
that the Japanese tend to get a little cheap on steel for brake
rotors? I've seen more Japanese cars with warped brake rotors!
I hardly ever see American cars with that problem.
Bob Schneider r...@fc.hp.com
Gregory M Charland
>> This is not a fair comparison. Generally speaking, the car in the
>> rear will eat the bumper of a swiftly decelerating vehicle ahead.
>> If you want a real test, find a 91 Honda Civic LX slowing down for a
>> lite, and center punch him from the rear. You'll probably find a
>> pretty good difference in repair costs, with yours being higher.
>> Especially with the way the front of the Probe is designed.
>
>Just a counter example, I witnessed a head on cllision at low speed
>between a Range Rover and a Japanese saloon (can't remeber what type).
>The damage to the Range Rover was a couple of scratches a a broken
>headlight, the damage to the Japanese car was front wing, bonnet,
>grille, headlamp, indicators, probably radiator. There was obviously a
>difference in the way that the fronts of these cars were build.
>Just my thoughts....
>Graham Sewell Tel +44 71 728 4851
>Unix TP and Database Unit Fax +44 71 728 4883
>PP506, Lion House, 72-75 Red Lion St, LONDON. WC1R 4RT
>g...@btcase.bt.co.uk
Another: My mother was driving my '84 Toyota 4Runner on a snowy road,
and a Honda Accord (oncoming) began to lose control. The Honda crossed
lanes, and slid into the truck (which was itself still moving).
The truck obviously "won." But it this crash (truck at ~30mph, car at
~35) the Accord(ion) literally wrapped itself around the truck.
The other driver died.
In a ~35mph crash.
Something's wrong here.
--
---------------------------------------------
Gregory M. Charland-----> gr...@wpi.wpi.edu
---------------------------------------------
P. J. Remner
In a previous article, gregc@jacobi (Gregory M Charland) says:
>
> Another: My mother was driving my '84 Toyota 4Runner on a snowy road,
>and a Honda Accord (oncoming) began to lose control. The Honda crossed
>lanes, and slid into the truck (which was itself still moving).
> The truck obviously "won." But it this crash (truck at ~30mph, car at
>~35) the Accord(ion) literally wrapped itself around the truck.
> The other driver died.
> In a ~35mph crash.
> Something's wrong here.
>
Greg, greg, greg, (can I call you Greg?) I see nothing wrong.
Your mom is at about 30. The guy in the car is at 35. That's like driving
into a brick wall at 65. Ooh. Your mom lived because the 4Runner probably
has a full frame, so that it's won't do its own impression of a, well,
accordion upon impact.
The accord, of course, is made of a gauge of steel slightly thinner than
aluminum foil.
--
aj...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Peter "Lizard King" Remner)
I bought me an illusion and I put it on the wall
I let it fill my head with dreams and I had to have them all...
Po Sum Chung ACF
>Greg, greg, greg, (can I call you Greg?) I see nothing wrong.
>
>Your mom is at about 30. The guy in the car is at 35. That's like driving
>into a brick wall at 65. Ooh. Your mom lived because the 4Runner probably
>has a full frame, so that it's won't do its own impression of a, well,
>accordion upon impact.
Pete, Pete, Pete, (if you allow me to call you Pete). Hitting a brick wall
at 65 is like a head on collision which require both cars (of equal weight)
going at 65 at each other. Forgot your physic already?
Po Sum Chung email: ch...@ames.arc.nasa.gov
P. J. Remner
Whut's Fysix? :-) :-)
Ronald Bense
>In <15...@oasys.dt.navy.mil> od...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'Dell) writes:
>Well, here is an example or case history. Last friday night my 89
>Probe was rear-ended by a 91 Honda Civic LX. Typical Maryland driver
>test, we were coming up on a light that had just gone green. However,
>no one leaves fast because too many people run the red. We slowed as
>the six or seven cars ahead came up behind those waiting at the
>light, then everyone started accelerating quite quickly. Suddenly,
>some bloody-minded idiot up front jammed on the brakes. Lots of
>rubber left on the pavement, but everyone stopped - except the
>poor soul behind me and BANG!
>
>Just got off the phone with this poor lady. Estimate on the Probe
>- $264.00, estimate on the Honda - $1400.00 and they still are not
>certain about the radiator. The Probe had scratches on the rear
>bumper and a ding in the spare wheel well. The Honda had its hood
>pushed back - sticking up 4-5 inches in the middle, grill gone, etc.
her since that probably would have totaled her car (bent frame, etc.)
My dad hit a Honda Civic at less than five miles an hour. Knocked the
bumper loose... repair costs to the Civic - $1400 for a new bumper (the
paint was not even scratched. Chevy truck - 1 "one" new fog light.
When a bumper costs $1400 dollars to replace and can't even take an
impact under five miles an hour, who cares if the car is made of tin
or anything else.
- I DON'T WANT IT!!!!.
Addendum - an old roommate's girlfriend was killed in a 82 Honda Prelude.
She was not wearing a seat belt when she broadsided a pickup at what
police estimate was approximately 40 miles per hour. The pickup's driver
walked away. She was impaled on the steering wheel and died at the scene.
I went and looked at the car afterward and deduced that she would have
at the very leaast suffered a crushed chest even with a seat belt since
the passenger compartment caved in. No structural integrity.
That great Honda gas milage comes from lack of structural support (weight).
Andrew Lavigne
I've hit a very sturdy steel pole at 5mph in my Civic and had no damage.
0$.
Next you'll say I was lucky or that I wasn't going 5mph. I don't think
Hondas are any more "bump-damage" prone than a Probe or any other car that
is roughly the same size. Same for structural integrity. As I recall, the
Accord does quite well in crash tests.
Funny, you bash the tinnyness of japanese cars... the Probe isn't so far
off from a mazda, you know...
This whole thread in the last two months makes me uneasy, even mad.
Seems very irrational at times (most times). And yes, I probably *will* buy
another Japanese car.
P.S. I am Canadian. Japanese AND American cars are both foreign to me. period.
Andrew Lavigne
alav...@bnr.ca
John Steczkowski
writes:
> In rec.autos, bo...@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes:
> >In <15...@oasys.dt.navy.mil> od...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bernard O'Dell)
writes:
> >Well, here is an example or case history. Last friday night my 89
> >Probe was rear-ended by a 91 Honda Civic LX. Typical Maryland driver
> >Just got off the phone with this poor lady. Estimate on the Probe
> >- $264.00, estimate on the Honda - $1400.00 and they still are not
> >certain about the radiator. The Probe had scratches on the rear
> >bumper and a ding in the spare wheel well. The Honda had its hood
> >pushed back - sticking up 4-5 inches in the middle, grill gone, etc.
> Sounds to me like your bumpers missed each other - very fortunate for
> her since that probably would have totaled her car (bent frame, etc.)
Actually the reason it cost so much to repair the honda is that fact that it
didn't hit the bumpers, think about it...the headlights and grill are not
designed to absorb an impact on any car, for example, I used to have a '75
Nissan Pickup, one night a Firbird drove under the rear end, my bumper got a
few scratches, but the firebirds lights(pop-ups) were wasted along with the
hood.
> My dad hit a Honda Civic at less than five miles an hour. Knocked the
> bumper loose... repair costs to the Civic - $1400 for a new bumper (the
> paint was not even scratched. Chevy truck - 1 "one" new fog light.
>
Did your dad hit the car from the side? Bumpers are designed for that. Even
if he didn't, this is only one data point.
> Addendum - an old roommate's girlfriend was killed in a 82 Honda Prelude.
> She was not wearing a seat belt when she broadsided a pickup at what
> police estimate was approximately 40 miles per hour. The pickup's driver
> walked away. She was impaled on the steering wheel and died at the scene.
> I went and looked at the car afterward and deduced that she would have
> at the very leaast suffered a crushed chest even with a seat belt since
> the passenger compartment caved in. No structural integrity.
>
> That great Honda gas milage comes from lack of structural support (weight).
My sister in law was driving in a Honda Accord one day. She stopped at a light
behind a Volvo 240. A guy in a Suburban was coming up to the red light behind
the Accord and wasn't paying attention. He plowed into the back of my sister
in law's Accord at about 45 mph, which then hit the Volvo. The lady in the
Volvo went to the hospital with back pain, but my sister in law walked away.
She was completely unhurt. She wasn't even sore the next day. Needless to say
the Accord was totaled, but it did its job, it sacrificed itself by compressing
to protect my sister in law. I don't think that since the lady in the Volvo
had to go to the hospital that Volvo's are junk, she was just unlucky. I don't
know how much damage the Suburban had, but it certainly wasn't totaled. The
point is, just because one person you know of in one Honda was killed, it
doesn't mean that all Honda's are junk, it just means one person was unlucky.
--
John Steczkowski st...@pencom.com
65mph: it's not a good idea, it just the law.
Grant Erickson
>>Just got off the phone with this poor lady. Estimate on the Probe
>>- $264.00, estimate on the Honda - $1400.00 and they still are not
>>certain about the radiator. The Probe had scratches on the rear
>>bumper and a ding in the spare wheel well. The Honda had its hood
>>pushed back - sticking up 4-5 inches in the middle, grill gone, etc.
>Sounds to me like your bumpers missed each other - very fortunate for
>her since that probably would have totaled her car (bent frame, etc.)
>bumper loose... repair costs to the Civic - $1400 for a new bumper (the
>paint was not even scratched. Chevy truck - 1 "one" new fog light.
>
>impact under five miles an hour, who cares if the car is made of tin
>or anything else.
>- I DON'T WANT IT!!!!.
>
Last June, as I was leaving my high school, my 1985 LeBaron GTS Turbo struck a
1987 Volkswagen Rabbit Cabriolet from behind. There are RR tracks about 200m
from the school and buses have to stop there. There was a 5 car line after th
buses, with me in back. After the buses took off, so did we 5. Suddenly the
front car slammed on the brakes for a "Chinese Fire Drill" (stop, run around
the car, get back in). To make a long story short, I did not stop in time. The
Volkswagen suffered <$100 damage from my apprx. 15-20 mhp impact. The LeBaron
suffered $3500. This included crumpled hood, totaled out fiberglass facia and
bumper, new headlight assemblies, new left front fender, accompanying
hardware, and a repainting of the front end. She got some new rubber moulding
on the back bumper and a little paint and happily went on her way. That
LeBaron had thick steel (I could sit on the roof without a flex), it must say
something for Chrysler engineering.
Gregory M Charland
>
>Greg, greg, greg, (can I call you Greg?) I see nothing wrong.
Actually, I prefer Greg. Thanks.
>Your mom is at about 30. The guy in the car is at 35. That's like driving
>into a brick wall at 65. Ooh. Your mom lived because the 4Runner probably
>has a full frame, so that it's won't do its own impression of a, well,
>accordion upon impact.
>
>The accord, of course, is made of a gauge of steel slightly thinner than
>aluminum foil.
>
>--
>aj...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Peter "Lizard King" Remner)
>
>I bought me an illusion and I put it on the wall
>I let it fill my head with dreams and I had to have them all...
Sorry. I guess I missed the point I was trying to make. The side-impact
standards destined for 1997 most likely would have saved this woman. She
wasn't killed instantly. Had she gotten to a decent trauma center in time,
she would still be alive.
I think it's sad that automakers are so adept at foot-dragging.
Len DePalma
In article <1992Mar4.1...@pencom.com>, st...@pencom.com (John
Steczkowski) writes:
|> My sister in law was driving in a Honda Accord one day. She stopped
at a light
|> behind a Volvo 240. A guy in a Suburban was coming up to the red
light behind
|> the Accord and wasn't paying attention. He plowed into the back of
my sister
|> in law's Accord at about 45 mph, which then hit the Volvo. The lady
in the
|> Volvo went to the hospital with back pain, but my sister in law
walked away.
|> She was completely unhurt. She wasn't even sore the next day.
Needless to say
|> the Accord was totaled, but it did its job, it sacrificed itself by
compressing
|> to protect my sister in law. I don't think that since the lady in
the Volvo
|> had to go to the hospital that Volvo's are junk, she was just
unlucky. I don't
|> know how much damage the Suburban had, but it certainly wasn't
totaled. The
|> point is, just because one person you know of in one Honda was killed, it
|> doesn't mean that all Honda's are junk, it just means one person was
unlucky.
Actually, I've read many times that the solid, high strength (not to
mention HEAVY) design of the Volvo is actually a safety *problem*.
Basically, as pointed out above, instead of the car being destroyed
(and in the process, absorbing a significant percentage of the impact)
the occupants end up getting it. Course, as usual, their are
exceptions... if I was in a rollover, I'm quite sure I would prefer
the strength of the Volvo - depending on how fast I was travelling
beforehand of course.
But, the million dollar question still remains... do they (Volvos) still
whistle!?!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET: le...@bnr.ca Any opinions expressed above are mine.
"To blindly stumble where others have fallen before..." ST-TLastG
Andrew Scott Beals, KC6SSS
>In a previous article, gregc@jacobi (Gregory M Charland) says:
[mom going 30 in 4runner, other guy in accord going 35, head-on crash,
other guy dies]
>Greg, greg, greg, (can I call you Greg?) I see nothing wrong.
>Your mom is at about 30. The guy in the car is at 35. That's like driving
>into a brick wall at 65. Ooh. Your mom lived because the 4Runner probably
>has a full frame, so that it's won't do its own impression of a, well,
>accordion upon impact.
THe problem here is that the 4Runner doesn't have DIN height bumpers so
when someone smacks into it [or into my '83 toy 4x4 pu], other cars tend to
go *underneath* and really get eaten. I was rear-ended at a stop light by
a woman going 35mph in her chevy citation. Folded *under* my rear bumper,
did a minor minor amount of body damage, nothing else wrong. Her car was
totaled. Good thing she was wearing her seat belt.
>The accord, of course, is made of a gauge of steel slightly thinner than
>aluminum foil.
Ah, but what is underneath the thin steel?
--
Andrew Scott Beals abe...@autodesk.com, kc6sss@n6eeg.#nocal.ca.usa.na
147.300MHz+, 440.900MHz+ [ctcss 114.8Hz]
Vivu libere a>u mortu!
Jonas Grumpy
>aj...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner) writes:
>
>
>>In a previous article, gregc@jacobi (Gregory M Charland) says:
>
>[mom going 30 in 4runner, other guy in accord going 35, head-on crash,
>other guy dies]
>
>>Greg, greg, greg, (can I call you Greg?) I see nothing wrong.
>
>>Your mom is at about 30. The guy in the car is at 35. That's like driving
>>into a brick wall at 65. Ooh. Your mom lived because the 4Runner probably
>>has a full frame, so that it's won't do its own impression of a, well,
>>accordion upon impact.
>
>
>
>>aluminum foil.
>
in accidents. Many japanese manufacturers know about the term "crumple zone"
unfortuanetley they extend it to the whole car..including the passenger
compartment. Its sad how most of them have not even grasped the simple
concept of a centralized fuel tank to minimize explosion or fire. I have
seen so many toyotas with their fuel tanks practically CONNECTED to the
rear bumper. And we thought pintos were bad.
--
Drive fast and live long!! The above is worth what you paid for it.
Thomas H. Song
thunderbird hit me from the rear while we were both stopped. That large
car made quite an impact even though it was going less than 10 miles per hour.
No damage was done to my car.
On the other hand, when someone SAT on the Honda's front quarter panel, it
caved in to my horror. I really thought it was some sort of plastic beause
of the sheer flexibility.
Oh well...
Chinnappa Ganapathy
>Last summer with about 200 miles on my new Honda CRX, some lady in cougar or
>thunderbird hit me from the rear while we were both stopped.
Hmmm ... I wonder how that can happen ...
Were you moving stopped or stopped stopped? 8-)
Chinna
--
Chinnappa Ganapathy | People who claim they don't let little
gana...@qualcomm.com | things bother them have never slept
QUALCO/\/\/\/\ | in a room with a single mosquito.
Derek 'Enzo' Small
> Do any of you engineers out there know what guages of auto body steel
> that various manufactures use??--
I think most outer body panels these days are around 22 to 24 gauge.
> I also used the example that my 32 Ford Fender were so thick, that
> you could roller skate on them. I also realize that the 32 Ford
> would not "gradually crumple", and therby cushion the occupants, from
> possible injury.
>
> There are obviously pros and cons to this.
> Like metal should "crumple" give way progressively, to protect
> the occupants etc.---
That's the problem with mandatory crash testing. A crush zone designed to
deform up to the passenger compartment at a 35 mph collision with a brick
wall, will not necessarily protect the occupants in a 55 or 65 mph collision
with a Tactor-trailer, or even another car.
>
> I've noticed a lot of accidents where it appeared that Hondas, Toyotas,
> and especially Datsun/Nissan cars just seemed they were made of tin, and
> collapsed--kinda of scary.
> I would also assume that you could save a helluva lot of money by
> building cars with "thinner" guages of steel. That would make the unit
> costs of each a lot "cheaper" in more ways than one.
Saves a helluva lot of weight also, as well as gas, performance, associated
gas hog taxes, etc....
> I wonder if there is any correlation between the safety of passengers,
> and the quality of steel (guage/thickness) that is used in its
> manufacture to protect them?
Yes, of course the more steel you have immediately arround you (in the form
of some type of confinement cage) the less likely that something else will
squash you, ie the ground, another car, parts of your car.... Keep in mind
that although a manuafacturer may use thinner outer body panels it allows
them to use heavier gauge metal in structural members. This doesn't mean
that a manufacturer will use this policy, but don't judge a book by it's
cover.
>
> Is there any truth to this?
--
*******************************************************************************
* Derek "Enzo" Small [san.dwsmall]@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu *
* Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45056 *
*******************************************************************************
* *
* "Life is a piece o shit, when you look at it. *
* unknown drunkard *
*******************************************************************************
Chris O'Neill
>
>> Another: My mother was driving my '84 Toyota 4Runner on a snowy road,
>>and a Honda Accord (oncoming) began to lose control. The Honda crossed
>>lanes, and slid into the truck (which was itself still moving).
>> The truck obviously "won." But it this crash (truck at ~30mph, car at
>>~35) the Accord(ion) literally wrapped itself around the truck.
>> The other driver died.
>> In a ~35mph crash.
>> Something's wrong here.
>
>Greg, greg, greg, (can I call you Greg?) I see nothing wrong.
>
>Your mom is at about 30. The guy in the car is at 35. That's like driving
>into a brick wall at 65.
No, that's like the Accord driving at 65 into a stationary 4Runner. When two
objects collide, the energy dissipated depends on the objects and their
relative velocity. If you want to replace one of the objects with a brick wall
then the relative velocity for the same energy dissipation is different.
Chris O'Neill
Telecom Australia Research Labs