Why American cars have two keys ?
Min Zhao
Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
Mart Molle
It is a security feature. If you need to give your keys to a parking
lot attendant, then what happens to the stuff in your trunk? Under a
one-key system, the attendant has full access to the trunk. Under a
two-key system, the trunk is still safe. Of course, a remote trunk
release may defeat the idea, which is why some cars put the trunk release
inside the glove box (locks using trunk key), or put a lock directly on
the remote trunk release.
Mart L. Molle
Computer Systems Research Institute
University of Toronto
Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
(416)978-4928
Sang-Yoon Oh
>It is a security feature. If you need to give your keys to a parking
>lot attendant, then what happens to the stuff in your trunk? Under a
>one-key system, the attendant has full access to the trunk. Under a
>two-key system, the trunk is still safe. Of course, a remote trunk
>release may defeat the idea, which is why some cars put the trunk release
>inside the glove box (locks using trunk key), or put a lock directly on
>the remote trunk release.
Well, all domestic automobile(I mean GM, Chrysler, and Ford) I have seen
so far has two key system. Door key opens trunk and glove compartment
of the car not the ignition key, just for the record...
--Sang
Min Zhao
>mz...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Min Zhao) writes:
>
>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>
>It is a security feature. If you need to give your keys to a parking
>lot attendant, then what happens to the stuff in your trunk? Under a
>one-key system, the attendant has full access to the trunk. Under a
>two-key system, the trunk is still safe. Of course, a remote trunk
>release may defeat the idea, which is why some cars put the trunk release
>inside the glove box (locks using trunk key), or put a lock directly on
>the remote trunk release.
>
Ford and Chrysler). The door key opens everything except the ignition.
Unless the reasoning is to prevent the attendant or his accomplice from
stealing the car, it doesn't make sense.
Louis C Lam
What if you give your ignition key to the attendant, but not the door key,
and then the attendant is so kind that he/she locks your car? You'll then
have to give your door key to the attendant and wait for the car for a
couple more minutes...
Ad absurdum per aspera
>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
Hmm. Most of the American cars I've driven use the same key for
the door and ignition, and a different key for the trunk and for
whatever storage compartments were provided with locks.
This approach (which I assume is what you had in mind) lets you give
the mechanic, valet, or whomever the ability to drive the car, but
not to get at the Uzis, cocaine, Pu-239, color xeroxes of Madonna's
book, or whatever else you've got in the trunk.
Conversely, you can give someone the ability to open the trunk and
fetch some item without giving him the ability to drive the car.
And on those really vexing family vacations, you can stash the kids
in the trunk without having to turn off the engine and therefore
the air conditioning.
As a practical matter, I've always been able to muddle through with
the Japanese single-key approach, which is especially attractive
now that American car makers have joined them in using these huge
nasty keys that stab you in an area of great pain and tenderness
whenever you sit down.
--Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
G.C.J. Timm
Once upon a time, in the motor city, Detroit, MI, USA,
there was two ways to key a car:
Commercial: One key for doors and trunk, separate key for
ignition. This allowed taxi drivers, cops etc. to start the
engine in the morning and shut it off at the end of shift,
while having a casual level of security on the auto while
gulping donuts, etc.
Personal: One key for door and ignition, one key for trunk
and glove box. This allowed the car to be given to untrustworthy
people, car service slime, parking lot attendants etc. while
having a casual level of security on the trunk and box.
Considering both were protected with 1/16" cardboard, the level
of security was LOW.
In modern times, GM / Ford / and rip-off motor corp. do whatever
they think is cheapest.
Jeff
Who thinks that the one key system is nice enough and secure
enough, until some car service slime on the road pops the
trunk and lifts the rear speakers and spare tire and tools.
;-<
Scott Coleman
>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>Hmm. Most of the American cars I've driven use the same key for
>the door and ignition, and a different key for the trunk and for
>whatever storage compartments were provided with locks.
This appears to be the way American cars USED to be. My '72 Ford Mustang was
like that. However, my '91 Mustang has one key for the ignition and the other
key for the doors (including the trunk/hatch). I, too, am at a loss for the
logic behind this change. The old way at least made some sense...
--
Scott Coleman tm...@uiuc.edu
Free Advice: It is inadvisable to read Bush's lips at an official banquet.
Mark Shaw
Probably the American ones are so you can take your car to a valet
parking place and not worry about the valet looking around in your
trunk. Valet parking is not that popular off-shore.
The problem is going away with the newer remote entry systems.
I think GM is the only one still using two keys? Any comments.
Mark
Craig L. Cole
You don't give the _door_ key to the attendant, you give the _ignition_
key to the attendent. After all, the attendent has to drive it back
out to you. The attendentdoesn't need the door key; since the car is
in a private lot, he has no reason to lock the car. Giving just the
ignition key to the attendent, the contents of the trunk are still safe.
I've always thought this was a smart idea, and never understood why
other major car manufacturers don't do it.
Craig Cole
V0P...@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
V071...@UBVMS.BITNET
Andrew A. Spencer
In a previous article, ma...@wdcwdc.sps.mot.com (Mark Shaw) says:
>German cars have also had one key for years.
>
>Probably the American ones are so you can take your car to a valet
>parking place and not worry about the valet looking around in your
>trunk. Valet parking is not that popular off-shore.
my VW has two keys, but not quite the same as what has been desribed.
it has one key called a "master key" which unlocks everything on the
car:trunk, ignition, glove box, doors..but then has another key , for
which i cannot recall the name, but supposedly unlocks the doors,and
will fit the ignition only..ie...much like the two key system for other
vehicles, but driver need only carry one key along unless they plan on
giving the car out to be serviced/parked/whatever..(don't ask how they
do this, i do not know)..unfortunaely, i do not know whether or not i like
this system, as i have only the master key, the person i bought the car
from did not have both!!:< oh well..just my story..
>The problem is going away with the newer remote entry systems.
>I think GM is the only one still using two keys? Any comments.
yes..see above.
>Mark
>
--
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
Jonathan Bruce Hacker
>>Probably the American ones are so you can take your car to a valet
>>parking place and not worry about the valet looking around in your
>>trunk. Valet parking is not that popular off-shore.
>my VW has two keys, but not quite the same as what has been desribed.
>it has one key called a "master key" which unlocks everything on the
>car:trunk, ignition, glove box, doors..but then has another key , for
>which i cannot recall the name, but supposedly unlocks the doors,and
>will fit the ignition only..ie...much like the two key system for other
>vehicles, but driver need only carry one key along unless they plan on
>giving the car out to be serviced/parked/whatever..(don't ask how they
>do this, i do not know)..unfortunaely, i do not know whether or not i like
>this system, as i have only the master key, the person i bought the car
>from did not have both!!:< oh well..just my story..
>>The problem is going away with the newer remote entry systems.
>>I think GM is the only one still using two keys? Any comments.
>yes..see above.
My Toyota Supra has this arrangement too. The 'valet' key is missing
a groove that the 'master' key has, so it cannot fit into all the
locks, just the door and ignition.
--
Jon Hacker
Caltech, Pasadena CA
hac...@tumbler-ridge.caltech.edu
William Nau
When it's 30 below outside, you like to let the car warm up for a few
minutes. Start the car with one key. Lock it with the other. This
let's met watch my running car from my nice warm apartment. Sure, you
could have two keys, but whatever. OK, it let's you run out and unlock
the trunk (for those of us without releases inside) without turning
the car off. Granted these are minor reasons, but my new car has only
one key and I miss having seperate keys.
--
William R. Nau
Supercomputer Systems Engineering and Services Company (SSESCO)
511 11th Avenue South, Suite 216
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55415-1536
(612) 342-0003
n...@SSESCO.com
Jim Grey
>jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>
>>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>
>>Hmm. Most of the American cars I've driven use the same key for
>>the door and ignition, and a different key for the trunk and for
>>whatever storage compartments were provided with locks.
>
>This appears to be the way American cars USED to be. My '72 Ford Mustang was
>like that. However, my '91 Mustang has one key for the ignition and the other
>key for the doors (including the trunk/hatch). I, too, am at a loss for the
>logic behind this change. The old way at least made some sense...
>
I thought only Ford did the ignition/door key - trunk key combo back in the
70s. Seems like my dad's old 71 Impala had the igntion key - door/trunk key
combo.
jim grey
j...@acd4.acd.com
Guy McConnell
>
>>>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
My American car, built in our neighboring state of Georgia, has
only one key that fits the doors, trunk, glove box, and ignition.
The only lock it doesn't fit is the add-on locking gas cap.
--
Guy McConnell g...@mspe5.b11.ingr.com or ...uunet!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy
Les Bartel
duplicate the two ignition keys onto one blank. One side of the blank
was cut for one vehicle, and the other side for the other vehicle. I
made a small notch in the handle so that I could tell which side was
which - notch up meant car a, notch down meant car b. I did the same
with the trunk key. Pretty handy to not have to stuff four keys in a
pocket when two would do.
- les
--
Les Bartel les...@naomi.b23b.ingr.com
Intergraph Corporation Huntsville, AL
Electronics Division (205) 730-8537
65% of all statistics are incorrect.
Wes Fujii
other key works the glove box, tailgate and storage compartment.
Looks like a pretty straightforward security design to me. Made in
America and designed the "right way".
Wes Fujii
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Wes Fujii * JAPANESE BUSINESS MOTTO *
* Boise, Idaho * You can buy anything you want *
* we...@hpdmm12.boi.hp.com * with a lot of money *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
David Brady
so...@andrew.cmu.edu writes:
>Well, all domestic automobile(I mean GM, Chrysler, and Ford) I have seen
>so far has two key system. Door key opens trunk and glove compartment
>of the car not the ignition key, just for the record...
>
My Honda has two keys - one for everything and one for everything except
the glove box and trunk. My VW Fox had something similiar.
BUT...
Sequeing this thread into the "GM Sickness" thread:
I can handle two keys doing two different things (although I have a bit
of trouble with my door key not being an ignition key.) What I can't
handle - and one of the reasons (minor) that GM hasn't got my money - is
their locks which require you to insert the key in ONE orientation only.
I like the ability to put the key in without looking at it and making
sure that the 'right' side is up. As nice as the car might be, this one
thing makes the car seem cheaper than it really is.
I know this was a 'feature' on GM's 90' cars and before - have they
changed recently? (Actually, I recently rented a '92 Olds Cierra and
remember the keys being the same ol' GM kind. So I guess they haven't
changed.)
-----------------------------------
email: Brady...@Tandem.Com
Remember, David Brady IS Lee Harvey!
Damon Francis Gentile
the trunk/engine release and the glovebox, which contains the hood release.
Andreas Tovornik
>jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>
>>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>
>>Hmm. Most of the American cars I've driven use the same key for
>>the door and ignition, and a different key for the trunk and for
>>whatever storage compartments were provided with locks.
>
>This appears to be the way American cars USED to be. My '72 Ford Mustang was
>like that. However, my '91 Mustang has one key for the ignition and the other
>key for the doors (including the trunk/hatch). I, too, am at a loss for the
>logic behind this change. The old way at least made some sense...
My Pontiac has one key for the ignition and another key for everything else.
I saw the logic behind this one Montreal winter's day when my battery was
messed up. I could not restart the car with a battery that couldn't hold
a charge. I had to keep the engine running and lock the car while going into
a the parts store to pick up a new battery. I just left the car running and
unlocked the car with the other key. I am glad that the keys are set up this
way. Now if it had been a Japanese car and my spare key was left at home
(as my spare set is always at home), I would have run the risk of having
all those christmas presents in the hatchback stolen.
Andreas
Jim Frost
>I think GM is the only one still using two keys? Any comments.
The 1992 Ford Mustang I rented last month had the moronic 2-key
system.
jim frost
ji...@centerline.com
Wes Fujii
: Speaking of Ford keys, I used to have two Fords. I had the key shop
: duplicate the two ignition keys onto one blank. One side of the blank
: was cut for one vehicle, and the other side for the other vehicle. I
: made a small notch in the handle so that I could tell which side was
: which - notch up meant car a, notch down meant car b. I did the same
: with the trunk key. Pretty handy to not have to stuff four keys in a
: pocket when two would do.
Cool idea. I'll have to check to see if our Taurus and my F-150 keys have
the correct "offset" directions and if they do, I'll have to do that, too.
BTW, another "better idea" is the Ford plastic emergency keys that you can
carry in your wallet or pocket. I've had to use mine a couple of times
and it's really nice.
Walter A. Koziarz
Chrysler vehicles have, for the past 35 years always had common door and
ignition key. They do, often, have a seperate trunk key. How many
times/examples will it take before folks realize I'm correct when I say '... if
it is good or novel or useful, it was created by Chrysler Corporation ...'
Walt K.
Charlie Preston
>
>I thought only Ford did the ignition/door key - trunk key combo back in the
>70s. Seems like my dad's old 71 Impala had the igntion key - door/trunk key
>combo.
>
trunk & glove box. In the early to mid '70s GM went to two keys: ignition/
door & trunk.
Last year I purchased a Ford which has one key.
Chas
William Nau
A whole lot.
Andreas Tovornik
>I thought only Ford did the ignition/door key - trunk key combo back in the
>70s. Seems like my dad's old 71 Impala had the igntion key - door/trunk key
>combo.
Right you are! My '70 Monte Carlo and '74 Monte Carlo had one key each for the
ignition/glove box and another for the doors/trunk.
Andreas
Jeff Easton
They must have invented the three key system too. My Dodge Ramcharger
has 1 key for the doors and ignition, 1 key for the rear liftgate, and
1 key for the glovebox.
While still under warranty, it developed a problem where it was hard to
turn the ignition key without binding. The boneheads at the dealership
replaced the cylinder without rekeying it to the door's first. When they gave
me four keys back I said "sorry, three's my limit". :-) They then ripped
the doors apart and re-keyed those instead of tearing down the steering
column again.
>Walt K.
--
___ ___ Jeff Easton eas...@zds-oem.zds.com
(__ (__ Zenith Data Systems j.ea...@mi04.zds.com
___) ___) Saint Joseph, Mich. eas...@andrews.edu
Monte Carlo Z-LS/20 - Choice of a quiet generation
Dhruva Bollam Reddy
opens everything except the trunk and/or glovebox.
Dhruva
Wes Fujii
: That's why Japanese and European cars come with a secondary key, one that
: opens everything except the trunk and/or glovebox.
The "problem" with a Valet key is that you have to *remember* to take it
when you are going to need it, or you have to carry it around with you. In
the second case, you are back to two keys again...
Robert J. Wade
>
> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>
cause it has always been that way and the old goats at gm don't like change.
plus a bunch of whinners worry about valets parking their car and stealing
stuff from the trunk.
you must be some young, idealistic trouble-maker to suggest that gm and the
other old-goats running car companies get with it and give the people what they
want to buy! :)
Hugo Bueno
>jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>
>>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>
>>Hmm. Most of the American cars I've driven use the same key for
>>the door and ignition, and a different key for the trunk and for
>>whatever storage compartments were provided with locks.
>
>like that. However, my '91 Mustang has one key for the ignition and the other
>key for the doors (including the trunk/hatch). I, too, am at a loss for the
>logic behind this change. The old way at least made some sense...
My '86 Thunderbird has one key for the ignition and door locks (the
square key) and one for the glove box and trunk (the round one).
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hugo Bueno |Delphi : MRGOOD CIS: 71211,3662
Fanwood, NJ |Internet: hu...@bluehau.bubble.org
CoCo 3 UUCP |UUCP : ...!s4mjs!bluehau!hugo
Robert J. Wade
>
>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>
>lot attendant, then what happens to the stuff in your trunk? Under a
>one-key system, the attendant has full access to the trunk. Under a
>two-key system, the trunk is still safe. Of course, a remote trunk
>release may defeat the idea, which is why some cars put the trunk release
>inside the glove box (locks using trunk key), or put a lock directly on
>the remote trunk release.
>
>Computer Systems Research Institute
>University of Toronto
>Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4
>(416)978-4928
if you don't trust the guy enough to give him the trunk key, why would you
give him the IGNITION key?????????????????????
Neil Weinstock
>In article <1992Oct24....@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ma...@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) writes:
>>mz...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Min Zhao) writes:
>>
>>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>>
>>It is a security feature. If you need to give your keys to a parking
>>lot attendant, then what happens to the stuff in your trunk? Under a
>>one-key system, the attendant has full access to the trunk. Under a
>>two-key system, the trunk is still safe. Of course, a remote trunk
>>release may defeat the idea, which is why some cars put the trunk release
>>inside the glove box (locks using trunk key), or put a lock directly on
>>the remote trunk release.
Both Japanese cars I have owned (Mazda and now Acura) have special "valet"
keys which will not open the trunk if the trunk is specially locked by turning
the (normal) key the other way (actually that's how the Acura works; not sure
if the Mazda worked that way also). In addition, when the trunk is locked
in that way, the remote trunk release is inoperative. In the Mazda, you could
also lock the fold-down rear seats using the normal key, and they could not
be unlocked with the valet key.
The point is, you can have a secure "one key" system. I much prefer having
to deal with only one key under normal operation.
>if you don't trust the guy enough to give him the trunk key, why would you
>give him the IGNITION key?????????????????????
Presumably, because while most valets aren't ambitious enough to engage in
full-scale auto theft, it would be pretty easy to go snarf some valuables out
of your trunk. I don't know if this is a real problem or not.
- Neil
--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--
Neil Weinstock @ AT&T Bell Labs // What was sliced bread
att!edsel!nsw or n...@garage.att.com \X/ the greatest thing since?
Andreas Tovornik
Praise THE LORD for giving us GM and OLD GOATS. The '66 Pontiac GTO is
still a wicked old ground-pounder.
Where can I order a new Fleetwood Brougham?
Andreas.
Peter Sheriff
American cars have two keys because if they only had one, you wouldn't
be able to start the car once you had opened the door or even worse, you
would not be able to open the door to get in and start the car:-)
Andrew A. Spencer
In a previous article, we...@boi.hp.com (Wes Fujii) says:
>Dhruva Bollam Reddy (db...@cec2.wustl.edu) wrote:
>: That's why Japanese and European cars come with a secondary key, one that
>: opens everything except the trunk and/or glovebox.
>
>The "problem" with a Valet key is that you have to *remember* to take it
>when you are going to need it, or you have to carry it around with you. In
>the second case, you are back to two keys again...
in that case, bonehead, you have to give them YOUR key..geez..some peeple..
(1/2 :-) there..)
DREW
>
>Wes Fujii
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>* Wes Fujii * JAPANESE BUSINESS MOTTO *
>* Boise, Idaho * You can buy anything you want *
>* we...@hpdmm12.boi.hp.com * with a lot of money *
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
--
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
David Johnson
>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
>Hmm. Most of the American cars I've driven use the same key for
>the door and ignition, and a different key for the trunk and for
>whatever storage compartments were provided with locks.
American cars might not use separate door and ignition keys now but
they definitely did before. I used to have a 1975 Chevy Nova that
used separate keys and my mother has a 1982 Ford Fairmont which
has different keys for the ignition and door.
I drove a Cadillac last year on a business trip and I think (I could
be mistaken) that it used separate keys for the door and ignition.
The ignition key had that security resistor on it and I am pretty sure
I did not use that key to unlock the door.
--
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
da...@xlnt.com
Ken Buck
(Neil Weinstock) writes:
>Both Japanese cars I have owned (Mazda and now Acura) have special "valet"
>keys which will not open the trunk if the trunk is specially locked by turning
>the (normal) key the other way (actually that's how the Acura works; not sure
>if the Mazda worked that way also).
the Miata has a 'valet' key that opens everything but the trunk.
however, one could debate how useful this might be...
- can't give it to the service guys since the battery is in the trunk, and
they might need to get in there to disconnect it
- i always figured that someone who tried to use it to get into the trunk
would try to turn it ("gee, this is stuck or something, it won't turn")
and eventually snap it off or break the lock trying to get it to work
- if someone really wants to get into the trunk, the lid is such light grade
steel that you could probably just pry the whole thing off in a couple
seconds...
summary: i don't use my valet key. i don't even know where it is anymore...
Robert J. Wade
>My Fiat has 3 keys. One for the ignition, one for the doors, and one for
>the trunk/engine release and the glovebox, which contains the hood release.
what a pain in the ass.
Robert J. Wade
uh, you could have done the exact same thing if you had one key that fits
everything if you had a spare with you....lock the door and take the extra
key with you. as for the spare being with you...it is easy to carry a plastic
credit card spare key in your wallet and or hide-a-spare somewhere under the
car with one of those magnetic things.
Robert J. Wade
>Dhruva Bollam Reddy (db...@cec2.wustl.edu) wrote:
>: That's why Japanese and European cars come with a secondary key, one that
>: opens everything except the trunk and/or glovebox.
>
>The "problem" with a Valet key is that you have to *remember* to take it
>when you are going to need it, or you have to carry it around with you. In
>the second case, you are back to two keys again...
>
>Wes Fujii
>
why not just leave the valet key...uh...in the car(the car it does with) and
then when you need it....wow...there it is.
Wes Fujii
I almost wrote that but I figured I would have gotten flamed for saying so.
In that case, any 3 year old playing in the car could find the key, and they
are smart enough to know where it goes and what to do next... (our neighbor's
3 year old got their car out of the driveway and across the street just by
playing with what she could dig out of Mom's purse)
Or, if you weren't real attentive and were broken into, instead of just
losing the stereo, the whole car would be gone...
Todd E Wheeler
I have a 1985 Ford Escort. The round key opens the doors and trunk (and would
open the glove box too if it had a lock!). The square key is the ignition
key.
Recently, I have driven several 1993 Ford Tempo's and Mercury Topaz's. Each
of these new cars use the same (square) key for the door and the other (round)
for the glove box and trunk.
I found this moderately annoying as I am very used to the way my Escort is. I
just don't understand why they don't pick a way and stick with it. I
guess that would be too easy. :-)
Todd Wheeler
tewh...@iastate.edu
Robert Toth
VALET key that opens the driver door and ignition. It will not open
the glove box or the hatch. I believe starting in 90 all Dodges have
one key and the valet key, being that you can manually override the
remote trunk release so it doesn't work. The only thing that 'I'
don't like it that Chrysler went to IDIOT keys in 90.
--
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Peter A. Bidian
>In article <1992Oct24....@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> ma...@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) writes:
>>mz...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Min Zhao) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>>(416)978-4928
>if you don't trust the guy enough to give him the trunk key, why would you
>give him the IGNITION key?????????????????????
I wonder why nobody came up with this idea before. I would hate to know
that my car is parked somewhere with unlocked doors anyways.
Peter
Wes Fujii
direction however the Taurus key is thinner and longer than the F-150 key.
The F-150 key will not go in the slot in the Taurus. I had to use the
thinner, longer Taurus key blank for my "universal key" and it seems to
work okay.
The round keys were from the same key blank so the "universal key" for
that one was no problem at all.
Excellent modification...
Jim Frost
>give him the IGNITION key?????????????????????
Yea, one of the things that most frightened me is that I traded my
brand-new shiny car for a piece of paper and actually had to believe
the guy would trade back at the end of the night. It runs counter to
everything I learned as a child.
jim frost
ji...@centerline.com
Andreas Tovornik
>>My Pontiac has one key for the ignition and another key for everything else.
>>I saw the logic behind this one Montreal winter's day when my battery was
>>messed up. I could not restart the car with a battery that couldn't hold
>>a charge. I had to keep the engine running and lock the car while going into
>>a the parts store to pick up a new battery. I just left the car running and
>>unlocked the car with the other key. I am glad that the keys are set up this
>>way. Now if it had been a Japanese car and my spare key was left at home
>>(as my spare set is always at home), I would have run the risk of having
>>all those christmas presents in the hatchback stolen.
>>
>>Andreas
>>
>>
>
>uh, you could have done the exact same thing if you had one key that fits
>everything if you had a spare with you....lock the door and take the extra
>key with you. as for the spare being with you...it is easy to carry a plastic
>credit card spare key in your wallet and or hide-a-spare somewhere under the
>car with one of those magnetic things.
Is it worth my time to answer this?
'Torque Monger'
Andreas Tovornik
Don't you just love to hate those big ugly Ford keys?
Torque Monger
Barry S. Rein
regular key which fits the doors, ignition, and trunk; and the so-called
valet key which fits the doors and ignition but not the trunk
I really don't know why Nissan bothered with the valet key. Not only does
the car have an internal electric trunk release which operates with the
ignition off, but the trunk is accessible from inside the car by opening
the back seat. Go figure.
******************************************************************************
* Barry Rein
*
* br...@dsfvax.jpl.nasa.gov
*
******************************************************************************
* No clever comment.
*
******************************************************************************
Brian Millham
> why not just leave the valet key...uh...in the car(the car it does with) and
> then when you need it....wow...there it is.
That is what the thief who breaks into your car is going to say, wow this
idiot left his key in the car, I'll take this one.
I never realized that carrying 2 keys was that much of a pain!
--
Brian Millham |Kitty |Fletch |Dragon's Lair |Kick Man |New World
AT&T Bell Labs |Ferrah |Buddy |Space Ace |Sinistar |High Speed
Denver, Co. |Dr. Pepper | | | |
b...@druwa.att.com |(ferrets) |(cats) |(laser disc) |(video) |(pinball)
James P. Cavanaugh III
I've read several of these posts, and several people are unsure
of the one key/two key system on american cars, so here's a recap.
GM: Up until the mid 60s, GM used only one key. It seems to me
that the 64 Olds we had when I was a kid had but a single key. Some
time in the mid 60s, and certainly by 1968 when they went to the
corrent "GM key shape", GM switched to two keys - square for doors and
ignition and round for trunk. By 1974, the two key system was changed
- square for ignition only and round for doors and trunk. I think that
this system was still in use through at least most of the 80s, but it's
been awhile since I had regular contact with GM cars.
FoMoCo: Used two keys, going back at least as far as my 61
T-Bird. Square for doors and ignition, round for trunk. This same
system was continued with the change to the 2 sided keys in 65, and
continued through the 70s. I always preferred this system because you
only had to fool with one key to open the door and start the car. Some
time in the early 80s, Ford did a GM on us and made the square key fit
ignition only, and round for doors and trunk. My 86 Marquis is like
this. Aack.
Chrysler: Two key system goes back at least to 1959.
Hexagonal key for doors and ignition and round for trunk. Does anybody
remember those aluminum keys from the late 50s and early 60s? The
pentastar keys came around 64 or 65, and ever since have fit the doors
and ignition while the round key was for the trunk.
This reminds me of another key curiosity: Why do GM keys go in
"teeth down" and Chrysler keys go in "teeth up". (Before the GM gang
chimes in with "Chrysler keys are upside down, remember that when Ford
keys only went in one way, the teeth were up.) Anyhow, I've always
wondered if there is some lock engineering that went into the decision
or whether it is just "that's the way we've always done it". Any
Ideas?
Jim Cavanaugh
Damon Francis Gentile
>>My Fiat has 3 keys. One for the ignition, one for the doors, and one for
>>the trunk/engine release and the glovebox, which contains the hood release.
In article <1992oct28.1...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> rjw...@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (Robert J. Wade) writes:
>
>what a pain in the ass.
>
Well it may seem that way at first, but being a Fiat, 3 keys is convenient
by comparison. Its the rest of the car thats a pain in the ass.
Walter A. Koziarz
> This reminds me of another key curiosity: Why do GM keys go in
>"teeth down" and Chrysler keys go in "teeth up". (Before the GM gang
>chimes in with "Chrysler keys are upside down, remember that when Ford
>keys only went in one way, the teeth were up.) Anyhow, I've always
>wondered if there is some lock engineering that went into the decision
>or whether it is just "that's the way we've always done it". Any
>Ideas?
more an observation than an idea... the GM gang would be wrong if they accused
Chrysler keys of being 'upside-down'... for verification, look around at lots
of other 'things-that-lock' -- the *VAST* majority have teeth-up locks, so by
virtue of common-usage, 'teeth-up' is the de-facto standard of correctness. and
GM got it wrong...
possible reason (serious) -- in a 'teeth-up' lock, the pins are less likely to
be 'contaminated' by something in/on the key since the contaminant would fall
*out* of the pins rather than *into* them...
Walt K.
Robert J. Wade
Khan
In article <1992Oct29....@mwhhlaw.uucp> jim@mwhhlaw (James P. Cavanaugh III) writes:
>"teeth down" and Chrysler keys go in "teeth up". (Before the GM gang
>chimes in with "Chrysler keys are upside down, remember that when Ford
>keys only went in one way, the teeth were up.)
And think for a moment which way your HOUSE keys go in. That should tell
you who's upside down. ;-)
The Devil Reincarnate
>jtc...@csa3.lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera) writes:
>
>>> Now here, I have always wanted to ask this question. What is the
>>>reasoning behind having two keys for door and ignition seperately rather
>>>than having the same key like the Japaness models ?
AAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNK!!!! Wrong! The Japanese cars have two keys. One
which is the regular "owners" key and the other is the "valet" key. The owner's
key can work with any door/dicky/glove-cmpt/ignition/fuel while the valet key can
work with only the front door and the ignition.
At least that is the way it is in my Acura. That's much, much better than
having two completely seperate keys.
Shailendra
ss...@ole.cdac.com
Andrew A. Spencer
In a previous article, tm...@uiuc.edu (Khan) says:
>
>In article <1992Oct29....@mwhhlaw.uucp> jim@mwhhlaw (James P. Cavanaugh III) writes:
>> This reminds me of another key curiosity: Why do GM keys go in
>>"teeth down" and Chrysler keys go in "teeth up". (Before the GM gang
>>chimes in with "Chrysler keys are upside down, remember that when Ford
>>keys only went in one way, the teeth were up.)
>
>And think for a moment which way your HOUSE keys go in. That should tell
>you who's upside down. ;-)
>
>
i do not comprehend the idea behind not making ALL keys two way..anyone want to
help me out w/ that instead of bickering abt which way is up?
DREW
--
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
John Schiermeier
>Mart L. Molle writes
>
>>It is a security feature. If you need to give your keys to a parking
>>lot attendant, then what happens to the stuff in your trunk? Under a
>>one-key system, the attendant has full access to the trunk. Under a
>>two-key system, the trunk is still safe. Of course, a remote trunk
>>release may defeat the idea, which is why some cars put the trunk release
>>inside the glove box (locks using trunk key), or put a lock directly on
>>the remote trunk release.
>
>Well, all domestic automobile(I mean GM, Chrysler, and Ford) I have seen
>so far has two key system. Door key opens trunk and glove compartment
>of the car not the ignition key, just for the record...
>
>--Sang
What? All of the domestic GM and Chrysler automobiles I have owned and
driven have one key for the door and ignition, and one key for the trunk
and glove compartment. With GM, it was a rectangular key for the first,
and oval for the second. I'd have to agree with the first poster.
John
Mike Mshar
>
[LOTS OF JOKES ABOUT THE SUBJECT DELETED TO SAVE BANDWITH]
>
>possible reason (serious) -- in a 'teeth-up' lock, the pins are less likely to
>be 'contaminated' by something in/on the key since the contaminant would fall
>*out* of the pins rather than *into* them...
Another likely reason: When keys are inserted into a GM lock (teeth down),
the pins do not incur as much wear as they would in a pin up lock. Why?
When you put the ignition key into the lock with 1000 pounds of extra keys
hanging on it, the key pivots around the point where the key is just coming
out of the lock. That means that the top of the key (and lock) are
supporting the weight of the extra keys/keychains/avenger noise makers.
Therefore, the pins of the lock and the teeth of the key do not put
pressure on each other, and thus there incur less wear.
Contamination, well maybe, if you dip your key in acid or something before
inserting it into the lock...
[ small :-) ]
Mike
--
| Michael G. Mshar | My Life-Long Goal: To keep common sense |
| mms...@mn.ecn.purdue.edu | alive and keep the idiots from taking over.|
| ms...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu | \\President, Nice Guys Anonymous// |
|____>>> United States Steel, Mechanical Engineer, Technical Services <<<____|
Mike Mshar
>
>What? All of the domestic GM and Chrysler automobiles I have owned and
>driven have one key for the door and ignition, and one key for the trunk
>and glove compartment. With GM, it was a rectangular key for the first,
>and oval for the second. I'd have to agree with the first poster.
BUUUUUUZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!! Wrong answer! Thank you for playing...
I have owned nothing but GM cars. The cars that are coming to mind now are:
1972 Chevrolet Nova
1982 Chevrolet C-10 Pickup (one of the ones that goes kaboom)
1982 Chevrolet Impala Station Wagon
1982 Pontiac Trans-Am
1981 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1982 Oldsmobile Cutlass
1985 Buick Sommerset
I can say with absolute certainty that all of these cars had two keys.
There was a square-head key that operated the ignition and the ignition
only, and there was an oval-head key that operated everything else. That
includes the doors, trunk, and glovebox, as well as locking trunk storage
compartments. I know this because I am holding my Monte Carlo keys in my
hand right now, and I am sure that every other car on this list had the
same arrangement. Perhaps GM changed this set-up after 1985 sometime, but
the cars on this list most certainly have the key arrangement I have just
described.
Actually, I just remembered driving my friends 1988 or 1989 Camaro, and it
again had two keys. The square head key turned the ignition, and the round
head key opened the door, I am sure. I know this Camaro was late-model,
because the keys had that pass-key theft deterent chip in them.
Oh, well, back to your regularly scheduled program...
Brian Millham
] This reminds me of another key curiosity: Why do GM keys go in
] "teeth down" and Chrysler keys go in "teeth up". (Before the GM gang
] chimes in with "Chrysler keys are upside down, remember that when Ford
] keys only went in one way, the teeth were up.) Anyhow, I've always
] wondered if there is some lock engineering that went into the decision
] or whether it is just "that's the way we've always done it". Any
] Ideas?
The reason that I heard was the Chrysler way was better in freezing
weather. If water got into the lock and froze, the GM way would
prevent the lock from working, where as the Chrysler way would still
work. Makes sense to me.
Bob Haar
|>What? All of the domestic GM and Chrysler automobiles I have owned and
|>driven have one key for the door and ignition, and one key for the trunk
|>and glove compartment. With GM, it was a rectangular key for the first,
|>and oval for the second. I'd have to agree with the first poster.
|>
Sorry, but this is not true for GM vehicles (excluding the transplants).
The rectangular-headed key fits only the ignition. The oval-head key
opens fits the door, trunk and storage compartment locks.
---
Robert Haar InterNet : rh...@gmr.com
Computer Science Dept., G.M. Research and Environmental Staff
DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is
personal opinion, not an official statement of General Motors Corp.
David Graham
In article <1chbkj...@bigboote.WPI.EDU> dam...@wpi.WPI.EDU (Damon Francis Gentile) writes:
>My Fiat has 3 keys. One for the ignition, one for the doors, and one for
>the trunk/engine release and the glovebox, which contains the hood release.
My Fiat has four keys- one for the ignition, one
for the doors, one for the boot (I beleive most of
you people call that the trunk) and one for the
petrol cap.
Is this a waste of bandwidth or what? Tell me,
how many spokes does your steering wheel have?
David
--
\--- David Graham ------- Internet: dagr...@unix1.tcd.ie ---\
\---- C.24 Dept of Statistics, Trinity College, Dublin 2 ----\
/----- +353-1-286 8571 (home) +353-1-702 2048 (work) ------/
/------------ "OS/2 - Half an operating system" -------------/
Larry Akers
In a previous article, ma...@wdcwdc.sps.mot.com (Mark Shaw) says:
>German cars have also had one key for years.
>
>Probably the American ones are so you can take your car to a valet
>parking place and not worry about the valet looking around in your
>trunk. Valet parking is not that popular off-shore.
my VW has two keys, but not quite the same as what has been desribed.
it has one key called a "master key" which unlocks everything on the
car:trunk, ignition, glove box, doors..but then has another key , for
which i cannot recall the name, but supposedly unlocks the doors,and
will fit the ignition only..ie...much like the two key system for other
vehicles, but driver need only carry one key along unless they plan on
giving the car out to be serviced/parked/whatever..(don't ask how they
do this, i do not know)..unfortunaely, i do not know whether or not i like
this system, as i have only the master key, the person i bought the car
from did not have both!!:< oh well..just my story..
>The problem is going away with the newer remote entry systems.
>I think GM is the only one still using two keys? Any comments.
yes..see above.
>Mark
>
--
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
Well on my '78 Mercedes they call this other key a valet key.
This way you can lock your trunk and glove box, give the valet
the "valet" key (what an idea) and they can lock and unlock the
doors and ignition but not have access to the trunk and glove
box. The other key works on all locks on the car...
LA... LA... LA... LA... LA... LA... Later,,, Larry Akers
Hugo Bueno
stuff deleted........
> I've read several of these posts, and several people are unsure
>of the one key/two key system on american cars, so here's a recap.
> GM: Up until the mid 60s, GM used only one key. It seems to me
>that the 64 Olds we had when I was a kid had but a single key. Some
>time in the mid 60s, and certainly by 1968 when they went to the
>corrent "GM key shape", GM switched to two keys - square for doors and
>ignition and round for trunk. By 1974, the two key system was changed
>- square for ignition only and round for doors and trunk. I think that
>this system was still in use through at least most of the 80s, but it's
>been awhile since I had regular contact with GM cars.
As a counterexample, my father used to own a 1962 Olds. It had
2 keys, one octagonal, the other round. The octagonalwas for the
doors and ignition, the round was for the trunk and glove box.
> FoMoCo: Used two keys, going back at least as far as my 61
>T-Bird. Square for doors and ignition, round for trunk. This same
>system was continued with the change to the 2 sided keys in 65, and
>continued through the 70s. I always preferred this system because you
>only had to fool with one key to open the door and start the car. Some
>time in the early 80s, Ford did a GM on us and made the square key fit
>ignition only, and round for doors and trunk. My 86 Marquis is like
>this. Aack.
My '86 T-bird uses the square key for doors and ignition and
round key for trunk and glove box.
> Chrysler: Two key system goes back at least to 1959.
>Hexagonal key for doors and ignition and round for trunk. Does anybody
>remember those aluminum keys from the late 50s and early 60s? The
>pentastar keys came around 64 or 65, and ever since have fit the doors
>and ignition while the round key was for the trunk.
> This reminds me of another key curiosity: Why do GM keys go in
>"teeth down" and Chrysler keys go in "teeth up". (Before the GM gang
>chimes in with "Chrysler keys are upside down, remember that when Ford
>keys only went in one way, the teeth were up.) Anyhow, I've always
>wondered if there is some lock engineering that went into the decision
>or whether it is just "that's the way we've always done it". Any
>Ideas?
I'd venture a guess that dirt is more likely to settle into the
pin chambers if they reside on the bottom of the lock (water too).
So, if you opout the pins on top, dirt and water can't block them
as well. This could explain the GM "teeth up."
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Hugo Bueno ! Fanwood, NJ | hu...@bluehau.bubble.org
Kent Sullivan
Well, I don't think that's completely correct. Although, I'm not sure what
you mean by "transplants" (I'm not familiar with that term).
My '65 Chevrolet Corvair Monza has two keys: squared-off (octagonal) key is
for the ignition and the door locks. The oval-headed key is for the trunk
and the glovebox.
And even better, you can remove the key from the ignition while the car is
running. That way you can run up front, unlock the trunk to retrieve
something you need, and get run over by the car when it jumps into gear
by accident!
Here's to using net bandwidth for discussing trivia! :-)
Corvair flames --> /dev/null
--
Kent Sullivan - Microsoft Corporation Redmond, WA - ken...@microsoft.com
The opinions expressed in this article are my own and do not necessarily
reflect those of my employer.
Wes Fujii
: Another likely reason: When keys are inserted into a GM lock (teeth down),
: the pins do not incur as much wear as they would in a pin up lock. Why?
: When you put the ignition key into the lock with 1000 pounds of extra keys
: hanging on it, the key pivots around the point where the key is just coming
: out of the lock. That means that the top of the key (and lock) are
: supporting the weight of the extra keys/keychains/avenger noise makers.
: Therefore, the pins of the lock and the teeth of the key do not put
: pressure on each other, and thus there incur less wear.
Sorry, I can't believe this. The key rotation is controlled by the
grooves in the sides of the key, not the pins. Pin pressure is regulated
by small springs inside the lock, one on each pin in the standard lock.
Pull all of the pins out of your lock sometime. The key position will
remain normal and just be absent of the click-click sound as you insert it...
Andrew A. Spencer
In a previous article, tro...@wkuvx1.bitnet () says:
>In article <1cqap8...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, aa...@po.CWRU.Edu (Andrew A. Spencer) writes:
>
>>>
>>
>> i do not comprehend the idea behind not making ALL keys two way..anyone want to
>> help me out w/ that instead of bickering abt which way is up?
>> DREW
>
>
>Are you, by any chance, a Ford Lover? ;-)
hmm..yeah. i am, actually, i have had a long affair w/ VW, but ford runs a
close second, ulness i want a truck. NO, really, i am a ford fan, but just
because i think they have the best products, partially for their keys, and
(but?) also for other reasons. and, the reason that i made the above
remark, actually, had nothing to do with my car, it had to do with these damn
dorm rooms...i always (try to ) put my key in with the flat side up, as this
is the way that i have ALWAYS called right side up. I do not know why, but,
despite having my house this way, all of my dorm roooms, my grandmother's
peice of shit(no comments on brands...i'll let you guess...), i STILL HATE
having to put them in "upside down"...so, it dawned on me, that if all of the
damn lock makers would just put two sided oblivious direction keys in EVERY-
thing, i'd be much happier, and this arguement would not have happend!.
DREW
(dammit!..the sig file is NOT meaningless, you goobs..you just do not know the
meaning!!!! geezus! ;-) )
--
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
tro...@wkuvx1.bitnet
> What? All of the domestic GM and Chrysler automobiles I have owned and
> driven have one key for the door and ignition, and one key for the trunk
> and glove compartment. With GM, it was a rectangular key for the first,
> and oval for the second. I'd have to agree with the first poster.
>
> John
>
>
Exqueeze me!
I have owned and/or driven *several* GM cars, and everyone, with the exception
of a 1972 Chevrolet pickup, used the round key for the door, trunk, glove
compartment, etc. ( My 1984 Z-28 even has keyholes for the rear
hatches and hideaway boxes which use the round key) and use the square
key *only* for the ignition. My truck used the square key for
everything.
Other GM cars I have had experience with:
1985 Cadillac Fleetwood and Sedan de Ville
1982 Chevette (eeeeeoooooo)
1982 Z-28
1986 Chevrolet Scottsdale
1989 Beretta
1986 IROC
1973 Firebird
1984 Cavalier
1986 Monte Carlo
Well?
-Mike
tro...@wkuvx1.bitnet
>>
>
> i do not comprehend the idea behind not making ALL keys two way..anyone want to
> help me out w/ that instead of bickering abt which way is up?
> DREW
[meaningless sig deleted]
Are you, by any chance, a Ford Lover? ;-)
Mike
Chakra Srivatsa
>My parents own a 1985 Nissan Maxima. The car came with two keys: the
>regular key which fits the doors, ignition, and trunk; and the so-called
>valet key which fits the doors and ignition but not the trunk
>
>I really don't know why Nissan bothered with the valet key. Not only does
>the car have an internal electric trunk release which operates with the
>ignition off, but the trunk is accessible from inside the car by opening
>the back seat. Go figure.
can be locked (so the person with the valet key cannot get into the trunk).
Seems like you could lock the valet key in the glove box or the trunk - that
way the key is there when you need it but it's not lying around unsecured in
the car.
---
The one l lama, he's a priest. sriv...@eng.sun.com
The two l llama, he's a beast.
And I will bet a silk pajama,
there isn't a three l lllama! says Ogden Nash
Jeff Easton
>In article <1992Oct29.2...@draco.macsch.com>, j...@downey.dev.macsch.com (John Schiermeier) writes:
>I have owned and/or driven *several* GM cars, and everyone, with the exception
>Other GM cars I have had experience with:
>
> 1985 Cadillac Fleetwood and Sedan de Ville
> 1982 Chevette (eeeeeoooooo)
> 1982 Z-28
> 1986 Chevrolet Scottsdale
> 1989 Beretta
> 1986 IROC
> 1973 Firebird
> 1984 Cavalier
> 1986 Monte Carlo
Whats this? A chevy lover? And whats that 73 firebird doing in there?
Must have been a 455 SD Trans Am, eh?
I'll spot you the caddy.
:-) :-) :-)
>-Mike
--
___ ___ Jeff Easton eas...@zds-oem.zds.com
(__ (__ Zenith Data Systems j.ea...@mi04.zds.com
___) ___) Saint Joseph, Mich. eas...@andrews.edu
Monte Carlo Z-LS/20 - Choice of a quiet generation
tro...@wkuvx1.bitnet
>
>>
>> 1985 Cadillac Fleetwood and Sedan de Ville
>> 1982 Chevette (eeeeeoooooo)
>> 1982 Z-28
>> 1986 Chevrolet Scottsdale
>> 1989 Beretta
>> 1986 IROC
>> 1973 Firebird
>> 1984 Cavalier
>> 1986 Monte Carlo
>
> Whats this? A chevy lover? And whats that 73 firebird doing in there?
> Must have been a 455 SD Trans Am, eh?
>
>
Well, yes. I am a Chevy lover. But, the '73 Firebird had a 350 2bbl.
Sorry to disappoint you.
-Mike.
Rob Carolan
(square), one for the doors (oval), and one for the trunk (trapazoidal).
How's that for technological advancement.
Jeff Easton
Hey, no disappointment here. I had a '71 Firebird Esprit w/ 350 2bbl
during the college years. The engine did suprisingly well. Keeping
the body rust down to a managable level was a pain though. :-)
My brother had a '73 TA w/455 SD. Alas, I was only allowed to *ride*
in it...
>-Mike.
Ken Buck
pretty good, i like that!
my '84 RX7 started out life with only 1 key for everything, but
after it got broken into a bunch of times, i started only fixing
the locks that got broken (instead of all of them, at a much higher
price). as a result, i had 2 or 3 keys at a time to fit the
various doors/ignition/etc. somewhere about this time, i decided
"who needs keys, anyway?".
Donald Tveter
I'd be interested in getting comments from anyone that has personal
experience with one. Besides general comments there are three things
I'm wondering about:
1) Is the 4 cylinder 2.2 liter MFI 110 HP engine adequate for most
ordinary driving? It will largely be used driving around city
streets, a little on country roads and interstates and rarely on
expressways. In general, very sedate driving.
2) I saw one this morning as it was making a left turn and as it
drove off it made a lot of noise. So is it noisy in general or
was this one just out of tune?
3) Do you know of any consumer reviews on this car?
Thanks a lot,
Don Tveter
5228 N. Nashville Ave.
Chicago, Illinois 60656
d...@chinet.chi.il.us
Andrew A. Spencer
they suck!..in MHO...oh well..i'm sure SOMEone must like them...
Michael K. Ellis
>I've been looking for a new car and the leading candidate is Corsica so
>I'd be interested in getting comments from anyone that has personal
>experience with one. Besides general comments there are three things
>I'm wondering about:
> 1) Is the 4 cylinder 2.2 liter MFI 110 HP engine adequate for most
> ordinary driving? It will largely be used driving around city
> streets, a little on country roads and interstates and rarely on
> expressways. In general, very sedate driving.
My mother and father bought a 92 Corsica with the 3.1 l V-6 engine last
January. I've been driving it for the past two months or so while I
waited for my Probe to come in. (I took delivery today. Different post.)
Over the two months or so I've spent about two hours a day in that car,
and put several thousand miles on it, so I think I can give a pretty
fair opinion about it.
First, buy the V-6. It doesn't have spectacular power, but it's *very*
nice to have for highway driving and acceleration, especially at
Denver's altitude. It's also very nice for squirting around town,
particularly in light to medium traffic. C&D did a short review of the
Corsica a few months back, and didn't like the 4-cyl very much.
Second, I like the Corsica's road manners. Ours has the 'sport'
suspension, and it feels very solidly planted on the road. There is
some problem with porposing on the highway, but that would likely be
worse with the 'regular' suspension. Overall I've found it a *very*
good commute car. Wind noise is not excessive for a small car. I've
been pleasantly surprised at how quiet, agile, and generally comfortable
it is at highway speeds. It also felt rock solid at 90mph. Not bad.
The automatic transmission is a 3-speed with no overdrive. Nothing
fancy, and not Lexus-smooth, but it delivers pretty fair performance.
Third, overall quality has been fair. This is an older (4+ years) GM
design, and it shows. The dash has a couple of fairly major squeaks,
particularly in cold weather. The 'Service Engine Soon' light has been
acting up (the dealer says it's just a small fuel injection adjustment,
no danger to the engine). Finally the 'skirt' below the front bumper has
come off a bit on the left and is hanging down. Looks like a couple of
bolts fell off. Other than that, I've been very happy with it. The
stereo (AM/FM Cassette, nothing fancy) gives very good sound for the
money, the seats are reasonably comfortable, although built for someone
a bit smaller than 5'11", and, as I've said, the driving manners are
very good for a compact sedan.
If you buy one, I suggest you look for the following options:
3.1l V-6. This is a must.
Sport suspension.
Sport gagues: the 'sport' layout of gagues is among the best I've seen
of ANY gauges in ANY car. This includes my new Probe GT. (They're about
even.)
Power locks/windows, remote trunk release, and other power goodies. Not
too expensive, and makes the car much more liveable.
Try to find the pass-thru folding seats. We didn't. Again, my Probe has
them, and I can't wait to use them for skiing.
Airbag is standard as, I believe, ABS. Both are wonderful. (No more
attack seatbelts!)
> 2) I saw one this morning as it was making a left turn and as it
> drove off it made a lot of noise. So is it noisy in general or
> was this one just out of tune?
The tires do tend to squeal in the corners if you push it even slightly.
It doesn't seem to have any other effect, and I haven't noticed any
handling loss. Just remember, it's a compact sedan, not a sports car.
> 3) Do you know of any consumer reviews on this car?
Consumer Reports had a review of the car a few months back, comparing
it, the Skylark, the Achieva, and the Grand Am. All three cars are
based, more or less, on the same frame. The other three have a much
newer design. However none of the other three have airbags either.
CR rated the Corsica as 'Good', but below the other three in quality.
However they didn't hate it. Just found it quite average.
Again, if you buy the Corsica, you won't get the latest and the
greatest. You will get a decent, reasonably well made car. You will
also likely be able to find a great deal on one. (I think we got ours
for about 2% over dealer cost. Yes, 2%. They really want to move these
puppies.)
--
Michael K. Ellis
ell...@fido.colorado.edu
Scooby Doo
One for the doors, ignition, boot (trunk)
One for the petrol (gas) cap.
Is this the same in America? I think it'd ideal to have a single
key doing most of the work.
And it's reversable :-)
Drew.
--
UK : (081) 945 3726 |
Drew ESN : 6 730 3726 | It's not a car, it's a VW,
Wagar US : +44 81 945 3726 | and a full time occupation too!
Internet : dr...@bnr.co.uk |
Andreas Tovornik
>In article <92...@rphroy.ph.gmr.com> rh...@albert.cs.gmr.com writes:
>>In article 12...@draco.macsch.com, j...@downey.dev.macsch.com (John Schiermeier) writes:
>>|>What? All of the domestic GM and Chrysler automobiles I have owned and
>>|>driven have one key for the door and ignition, and one key for the trunk
>>|>and glove compartment. With GM, it was a rectangular key for the first,
>>|>and oval for the second. I'd have to agree with the first poster.
>>|>
>>
>>Sorry, but this is not true for GM vehicles (excluding the transplants).
>>The rectangular-headed key fits only the ignition. The oval-head key
>>opens fits the door, trunk and storage compartment locks.
>>
>>
>>
>>---
>> Robert Haar InterNet : rh...@gmr.com
>> Computer Science Dept., G.M. Research and Environmental Staff
>>DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is
>>personal opinion, not an official statement of General Motors Corp.
>
>Well, I don't think that's completely correct. Although, I'm not sure what
>you mean by "transplants" (I'm not familiar with that term).
Transplants are cars marketed by GM but built by other manufacturers.
>My '65 Chevrolet Corvair Monza has two keys: squared-off (octagonal) key is
>for the ignition and the door locks. The oval-headed key is for the trunk
>and the glovebox.
GM changed a couple of things in the last 27 years.
>And even better, you can remove the key from the ignition while the car is
>running. That way you can run up front, unlock the trunk to retrieve
>something you need, and get run over by the car when it jumps into gear
>by accident!
That's why they stopped making cars with the key removal feature.
>Here's to using net bandwidth for discussing trivia! :-)
>
>Corvair flames --> /dev/null
Oversteer is safe at any speed :+)
Torque Monger
Andreas Tovornik
>In article <1992Nov3.0...@wkuvx1.bitnet> tro...@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
>
>>>> 1985 Cadillac Fleetwood and Sedan de Ville
>>>> 1982 Chevette (eeeeeoooooo)
>>>> 1982 Z-28
>>>> 1986 Chevrolet Scottsdale
>>>> 1989 Beretta
>>>> 1986 IROC
>>>> 1973 Firebird
>>>> 1984 Cavalier
>>>> 1986 Monte Carlo
>>>
>>> Whats this? A chevy lover? And whats that 73 firebird doing in there?
>>> Must have been a 455 SD Trans Am, eh?
>
>>Well, yes. I am a Chevy lover. But, the '73 Firebird had a 350 2bbl.
>>Sorry to disappoint you.
>
> Hey, no disappointment here. I had a '71 Firebird Esprit w/ 350 2bbl
>during the college years. The engine did suprisingly well. Keeping
>the body rust down to a managable level was a pain though. :-)
>
> My brother had a '73 TA w/455 SD. Alas, I was only allowed to *ride*
>in it...
Pontaics are still cool! My '87 Formula keeps the performance tradition going.
Can't wait for the new F-cars!
Torque Monger
Andrew A. Spencer
In a previous article, dr...@tcom.stc.co.uk (Scooby Doo) says:
>My Volkswagen Golf has two keys...
>
>One for the doors, ignition, boot (trunk)
>One for the petrol (gas) cap.
>
>Is this the same in America? I think it'd ideal to have a single
>key doing most of the work.
myne is a jetta, and it has two, one for EVERYthing, including the
gas(petrol) cap, doors, ignition, glove box, trunk (boot)..and another
called a valet(or so i've been told, myne was lost when i bought the
blinkin' car!!!) key..which only unlocks the doors and ignition, so that
the valet can lock, unlock, and drive your car to you, while not allowing
his buddies to steal anything out of the trunk or glove box(without
breaking something...just like any lock..only keeps the honest thieves
out!...)
>
>And it's reversable :-)
YUP!!!!!(this is my favorite feature!!!)
>Drew.
>
>--
> UK : (081) 945 3726 |
>Drew ESN : 6 730 3726 | It's not a car, it's a VW,
>Wagar US : +44 81 945 3726 | and a full time occupation too!
> Internet : dr...@bnr.co.uk |
>
DREW
--
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????-----whatever!
Harv R Laser
locks and such, but follow me with this, kids... :-)
Many cars have their door locks in their door handles. Others simply
have the locks in the door's sheet metal, away from the door handle.
Thieves who like to break into cars to steal radios and such seem
to have some kind of nasty tool that can grab a car door lock,
tumblers and all, and rip it right out of the sheet metal. This
happened to my (when I owned it) Mazda RX-3 once, in broad daylight,
parked in front of a former workplace (one of those industrial
type buildings with no windows facing the front-strip parking lots).
I went out to get into the car at lunchtime, held my key to the
door lock, and there was a roundish hole in the door where the lock
used to be. :( The entire lock assembly was sitting on the ground
near the car.
At any rate, my earlier VW Bug had the door locks in the door
handles, so when it was broken into (twice) they got in thru the
windwings. My later German Ford Capri also had the door locks in the
door handles and it got broken into once by the thieves pulling
one of the rear quarter flip-out windows right out of its frame and
then reaching inside and opening the door.
My current Taurus wagon has the door locks built into the door
handles. There doesn't seem to be any kind of automotive company-wide
philosophy/design as to whether a certain model will have the
locks built into the handles or just shoved into the sheet metal.
Has anyone here ever seen/read any kind of stats as to whether
cars with the locks built into the door handles are less likely
to be broken into.. as in the thief runs up to the car with his
sheet-metal-lock-ripping-tool in hand, sees the lock in the handle,
and then runs to another car which might allow easier entry?
Or are their any stats on car-entry thieves who have been
caught in the act, such that they might generally carry with
them a complete break-in toolkit, not only the lock ripper outer,
but slim jims, pry bars, and god knows what else.
Thanks, Harv
Doug Howell
No reason I can think of for having different door and ignition keys.
However, I can think of a couple very good reasons for having a
different key for the (trunk+glovebox) than for the (door+ignition).
In particular, the need for protecting the contents of your trunk
(luggage, Christmas gifts, dead bodies in transport) and of your glovebox
(vehicle registration, garage door opener, handguns) from possibly
dishonest parking lot attendants, auto shop personel, and others who
may be temporarily entrusted with your vehicle.
So there IS a good reason to have two different keys.
However, The Question remains: Which ones and why.
-Doug Howell
Boise, Idaho (a Very Low Crime Part of the United States of Larceny)
James Dibb
|>
[stuff about fiat keys deleted]
|>
|> Is this a waste of bandwidth or what? Tell me,
|> how many spokes does your steering wheel have?
|>
3
|> David
|> --
|> \--- David Graham ------- Internet: dagr...@unix1.tcd.ie ---\
|> \---- C.24 Dept of Statistics, Trinity College, Dublin 2 ----\
|> /----- +353-1-286 8571 (home) +353-1-702 2048 (work) ------/
|> /------------ "OS/2 - Half an operating system" -------------/
--
Jim Dibb | My car doesn't care if your |
di...@jac.webo.dg.com | car climbed MT. WASHINGTON |
Bob Goudreau
>
>> Although, I'm not sure what
>> you mean by "transplants" (I'm not familiar with that term).
>
>Transplants are cars marketed by GM but built by other manufacturers.
Funny, but all the auto-industry news stories I've every seen use
the term "transplant" to refer to a foreign company's vehicles that
were formerly imported but are now domestically produced. For example,
Honda's Ohio-build Accords or Toyota's Kentucky-built Camrys in the
United States, or Nissan's English-built vehicles in Britain.
Cars like GM's various Geo models (built by Japanese or Korean
makers, but sold under a domestic nameplate) are often referred
to as "rebadged" models.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Goudreau Data General Corporation
goud...@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive
+1 919 248 6231 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
Andreas Tovornik
>In article <1992Nov4.1...@sol.UVic.CA> atov...@engr.UVic.CA writes:
>>
>>> Although, I'm not sure what
>>> you mean by "transplants" (I'm not familiar with that term).
>>
>>Transplants are cars marketed by GM but built by other manufacturers.
>
>Funny, but all the auto-industry news stories I've every seen use
>the term "transplant" to refer to a foreign company's vehicles that
>were formerly imported but are now domestically produced. For example,
>Honda's Ohio-build Accords or Toyota's Kentucky-built Camrys in the
>United States, or Nissan's English-built vehicles in Britain.
OK, so I was wrong...
>Cars like GM's various Geo models (built by Japanese or Korean
>makers, but sold under a domestic nameplate) are often referred
>to as "rebadged" models.
What would you call Diamond Star? Rebadged Transplants
or Transplanted Rebadgers ?
Sorry, These beasts don't interest me! :+)
Torque Monger