why does anyone ever use 12 point sockets?
Dan Berlau
and won't strip the bolt, but my main and my rod bolts were twelve sided so I
had to use the 12 sided, so the only thing I can recommend is to have a nice
variety of 12 sided and six sided.
Kevin P Chugh
i have had this complaint for years and i'd like to know what everyone
thinks- i have been working on cars for a number of years now and have
done everything from changing my oil to rebuilding an engine and i have
never ever once needed a 12 point socket - my socket set came with
a bunch of 6 point and a bunch of 12 point and i would much much much
rather have a more complete set of 6-point - i'd like to have every
single metric size from 4-30 for example than have 4-19 in both 6 and 12
point - they always strip bolts and the extra half a 1/12 turn you save
in tight places is not worth anything - anyone agree?
kevin
Richard Struve
there in many engine applications. A 12 point nut cannot be tightened/loosened
with a 6 point socket.
I use 12 point nuts on all rod bolt nuts and cylinder head stud nuts
in our race car.
A. Lloyd
On 14 Jul 1995, Kevin P Chugh wrote:
>
>
> i have had this complaint for years and i'd like to know what everyone
> thinks- i have been working on cars for a number of years now and have
> done everything from changing my oil to rebuilding an engine and i have
> never ever once needed a 12 point socket - my socket set came with
> a bunch of 6 point and a bunch of 12 point and i would much much much
> rather have a more complete set of 6-point - i'd like to have every
> single metric size from 4-30 for example than have 4-19 in both 6 and 12
> point - they always strip bolts and the extra half a 1/12 turn you save
> in tight places is not worth anything - anyone agree?
I have come across square nuts that require a 12-point socket. Of
course, this begs the question, "Why use square nuts?"
Square nuts aside, I agree that 12-point sockets are of little use on
hex head bolts and nuts.
-alan
TEMPEST7
Tempest7
GBlessing
place with a long extension and swivel a 12 point socket is easier to get
onto a bolt.
J Blessing ASE Master Tech
Frank Mallory
A> I have come across square nuts that require a 12-point socket.
Of
A>course, this begs the question, "Why use square nuts?"
A> Square nuts aside, I agree that 12-point sockets are of little
use on
A>hex head bolts and nuts.
The main rationale for 12-point sockets is to allow you to work in
tight places where the swing of the wrench is restricted.
Scott Schering
>
> A> I have come across square nuts that require a 12-point socket.
>Of
> A>course, this begs the question, "Why use square nuts?"
>
a square nut would need a 4 or 8 point socket... I have a set of old 8 points..
you might find square nuts in older wood work...like table legs..
Ashok Balasubramanian
Honda's use a 17mm (I think) and a 10mm 12-point
bolts on the clutch and flywheel...
later
pudge
compressors,headers sometimes,few auto trans bolts.
Here's another ? Why do metric sockets have hole on other end which
is 1/4,3/8,1/2...Shouldn't that end be metric also??? Only thing 12 pt
does is make it a little easier to slip on the bolt head or nut.
Regards Ford Guy
Drbob27
sockets are convenient (easier to get on the bolt) and the flank drive
feature (rounded out corners so the tool hits the hex a little in from the
corner) makes them less prone to rounding off than a conventional 6 point.
So I ask, why would anyone ever not use Snap On sockets :-) :-)?
Bob
Frank Mallory
P>Here's another ? Why do metric sockets have hole on other end
which
P>is 1/4,3/8,1/2...Shouldn't that end be metric also??? Only thing 12
pt
P>does is make it a little easier to slip on the bolt head or nut.
Possibly the socket manufacturers were all paid off by Snap-On?
Kevin P Chugh
: As a general engineering point, I agree. However, my 12 point Snap-On
: Bob
how much are snap on sockets? i just want to add one more point - i
did use my 12-pt sockets to rebuild an engine - i was surprised to find
12-point bolts - but why don't they just make everything 6 sided - no more
square nuts, no more round heads - no more star bolts like on chevy brakes-
it would be such a nice world if everything were 6 sided - i was taking off
the struts on my cavalier the other day and noticed that the bolt heads were
circular with 2 flattened edges and i was thinking - how stupid - why not
just make it 6 sided- that would be a lot easier to move - anyone have
any explanation?
thanks,
kevin
Davin Lim
>As a general engineering point, I agree. However, my 12 point Snap-On
>sockets are convenient (easier to get on the bolt) and the flank drive
>feature (rounded out corners so the tool hits the hex a little in from the
>corner) makes them less prone to rounding off than a conventional 6 point.
> So I ask, why would anyone ever not use Snap On sockets :-) :-)?
Because flank drive (a Snap On term) isn't unique to Snap On anymore. There's
a number of brands out there that have duplicated this feature - and it is
a good thing. I think I even saw a couple examples of some Craftsman sockets
(6 pt.) from their so called "professional" line that had their version of
flank drive. One could still argue that the tolerances and metallurgy of
Snap On are still better than most others, but flank drive is no longer the
big deal it once was. I guess the patent expired.
Also, how effective is flank drive on a 12-pt socket - especially when working
on a hex fitting?
--
............................................
* Davin Lim *
* li...@arraytech.com -- Boulder, Colorado. *
Walter A. Koziarz
yep... a 12-point won't work with a square nut... but there's another, more
common, place these marvels might be found (hehehe, I won't say right away, but
these nuts (square) have earned the alias of 'farmer-nut' for a reason).
Walt K.
--
COMPRESSION IGNITION FOREVER!!!!!
A. Lloyd
On 16 Jul 1995, Scott Schering wrote:
> Frank_...@srs.blkcat.com (Frank Mallory) wrote:
> >
> > A> I have come across square nuts that require a 12-point socket.
> >Of
> > A>course, this begs the question, "Why use square nuts?"
> >
>
>
> a square nut would need a 4 or 8 point socket... I have a set of old 8 points..
> you might find square nuts in older wood work...like table legs..
Because twelve is a multiple of four (3X4=12), an over-sized 12-point
socket works on a square nut.
-alan
Les Bartel
>
> A> I have come across square nuts that require a 12-point socket.
> Of
> A>course, this begs the question, "Why use square nuts?"
>
> use on
> A>hex head bolts and nuts.
>
> The main rationale for 12-point sockets is to allow you to work in
> tight places where the swing of the wrench is restricted.
Nit-pick mode on.
This is irrelevant for a socket (and ratchet). It is relevant for a box
end wrench.
Nit-pick mode off.
I've seen 12 point bolt heads on an injector pump. A 12 point wrench
would be useful to remove them.
- les
--
Les Bartel My old .sig was getting tired and wanted
Intergraph Corporation to rest for a while. This space is now
Electronics Division intentionally left blank.
Huntsville, AL
ljba...@ingr.com
(205) 730-8537
Br'er Lappin
>So why would anyone not use Snap-On sockets?
because we're not all made out of money
dave
Andy Dingley
> Because flank drive (a Snap On term) isn't unique to Snap On anymore.
Even more so than with straight sided sockets, the quality of a generic
"flank drive" socket is dependent on the dimensional accuracy of the
broaching process that forms the sockets. There are many ways to
broach sockets, some give good results, some give quick results,
some are a short cut that's only possible if the metal is pretty soft.
I'm sticking with Snap-on.
--
Andy Dingley din...@codesmth.demon.co.uk
What's the difference between opposable thumbs and an AOL account ?
Andy Dingley
> > The main rationale for 12-point sockets is to allow you to work in
> > tight places where the swing of the wrench is restricted.
> This is irrelevant for a socket (and ratchet).
Two points:
First of all, sockets were originally used with rigid extensions, without
ratchets. The first ratchets were American, in the 1920's AFAIR. For a
non-ratchet, 12 points are much easier to use.
Secondly, the "6 is as good as 12" argument only applies to a perfect
ratchet with infinitely small teeth and no lost motion. Real-world
ratchets, especially cheap & nasty ones, don't approach this at all
closely. The reason I prefer my Facom over a Snap-on ratchet is
because it has the finest tooth pitch of any ratchet I've used, yet
still handles plenty of torque.
Alan Barrow
>is 1/4,3/8,1/2...Shouldn't that end be metric also??? Only thing 12 pt
>does is make it a little easier to slip on the bolt head or nut.
Seems to me that the 12 pt might be a bit stronger (less inclined
to strip) than a 6 pt.
It holds true for axle splines, more splines, stronger "joint".
(There is less metal removed.)
Any takers?
Alan Barrow km4ba | If a little knowledge.....
Work: j...@atl.hp.com | is a dangerous thing.....
Home: al...@km4ba.ampr.org | then what is the Anti-Dote???
Scott Schering
>did use my 12-pt sockets to rebuild an engine - i was surprised to find
>12-point bolts - but why don't they just make everything 6 sided - no more
>square nuts, no more round heads - no more star bolts like on chevy brakes-
>it would be such a nice world if everything were 6 sided - i was taking off
>the struts on my cavalier the other day and noticed that the bolt heads were
>circular with 2 flattened edges and i was thinking - how stupid - why not
>just make it 6 sided- that would be a lot easier to move - anyone have
>any explanation?
>
>thanks,
>kevin
the odd heads.. in shocks..fords torx fitings. 12 point.. I htink are mostly to discurage
home mechanics.. if you cant fix it.. they can charge you to let them do it..
Scott Schering
>to strip) than a 6 pt.
>
>It holds true for axle splines, more splines, stronger "joint".
>(There is less metal removed.)
>
>Any takers?
the min reason for 12 point sockes is to make things easier to get the socket on..
ever work with a breaker bar in a tight spot? you may not be able to get a 6 point on the same
bolt you get a 12 point on cause you can't move the handle enough..
as for the 12 point being stronger? I don't think so...
I've never broken a 6 but I've cracked plenty of 12's
a 6 point is good for partly striped bolts (corners missing), Tight and or rusty bolts..
it works with the flats of the bolt not the corners like a 12.. the flats of the bolt not being
likely to shear off like the corners, will allow you to apply more torque..
Nathan J. Nagel
us.. by Alan Bar...@narcesc.atl.
>
> >is 1/4,3/8,1/2...Shouldn't that end be metric also??? Only thing 12 pt
> >does is make it a little easier to slip on the bolt head or nut.
>
> to strip) than a 6 pt.
>
> It holds true for axle splines, more splines, stronger "joint".
> (There is less metal removed.)
>
> Any takers?
>
>
> Work: j...@atl.hp.com | is a dangerous thing.....
> Home: al...@km4ba.ampr.org | then what is the Anti-Dote???
I don't think that's the case, unless you're using 12-pt. nuts
(quite possibly stronget than 6...) but if you're using a 12-point
socket on a really stuck 6-point nut, you're not usingthe whole surface
of the nut to turn it (i.e. when the corners deform, the socket doesn't
have any material to "catch" on the faces of the nut) and then you hae a
rounded-off nut and you break out the vice-grips and curse a lot. At
least that's the way it works for me.
later,
Nate
George Jefferson
:compressors,headers sometimes,few auto trans bolts.
:is 1/4,3/8,1/2...Shouldn't that end be metric also???
What do you mean shouldn't the other end be metric? They should change
the drive size because we are using a different measurement system?
Would it make you feel better if we started calling the standard
wrenches 6,10, and 13 mm...
--
george
geo...@mech.seas.upenn.edu
George Jefferson
:to strip) than a 6 pt.
:
:It holds true for axle splines, more splines, stronger "joint".
:(There is less metal removed.)
:
:Any takers?
of course, thats why you see 12 pt bolts in high-torque critical
applications ( head bolts, flywheel bolts, etc )
I think the typical tinkerer could wait until he encouters one and then run
out to sears and buy the single 12pt socket needed though.
--
george
geo...@mech.seas.upenn.edu
Bob Gilbert
be very important, I've always wondered just how much it
matters when you consider the dimensional accuracy of the
nut or bolt to which it is being applied.
-Bob
George Jefferson
:course, this begs the question, "Why use square nuts?"
square nuts require a four or eight point socket. I guess a 12 point
( of the wrong size ) might sorta fit. Then again I've never seen a
square nut in an application where I felt bad using the vice grips :-)
--
george
geo...@mech.seas.upenn.edu
George Jefferson
:square nuts, no more round heads - no more star bolts like on chevy brakes-
I like the torx bolts. You really can apply more torque to them than to
an equivalent socket head. I have found that those drivers (the big ones
like for the chevy brakes ) loose there edge in a hurry ( maybe here I should
hunt down the snap-on man ) I'm looking at a stainless hex head set screw
in an aluminum fitting right now that I sure wish had a torx head instead.
- the hex socket should be good to hold the drill bit centered :-)
:the struts on my cavalier the other day and noticed that the bolt heads were
:circular with 2 flattened edges and i was thinking - how stupid - why not
:just make it 6 sided
I think you are looking at camber bolts, the head is asymetric so you
can see which way the offset is oriented when you adjust them.
--
george
geo...@mech.seas.upenn.edu
Andy Dingley
> the odd heads.. in shocks..fords torx fitings. 12 point..
Torx are used because you can fit them into smaller spaces.
You don't need to allow any "tool space" around them, as the
tool is smaller in diameter than the fastener.
Production engineers also prefer an internal tool to an external
tool because it's easier to arrange automatic tightening machines.
Torx are preferred over Allens because the side walls are closer
to being radial, thus allowing a higher torque for the same surface
pressure. Torque is the good stuff that does up the fastener, pressure
is the nasty stuff that causes the fastener edges to deform and the
tool to slip.
> I htink are mostly to discurage home mechanics..
That too 8-)
Andy Dingley
> Because twelve is a multiple of four (3X4=12), an over-sized 12-point
> socket works on a square nut.
This is a really bad idea. The angles between the faces of the socket
are wrong, and if there is any real torque needed to shift the fastener,
then you'll probably round the edges of the nut.
George B
j...@narcesc.atl.hp.com (Alan Barrow) wrote:
>In <hlCDod...@delphi.com> pudge <pu...@delphi.com> writes:
>
>Seems to me that the 12 pt might be a bit stronger (less inclined
>to strip) than a 6 pt.
>
>Any takers?
>
>
A 12-point socket IS stronger when removing a 12-point bolt but MOST bolts are
6-point. A 12 point socket on a 6 point fastener can be trouble as the socket
is more likely to slip.
Probaby the STRONGEST fastener is the 8-point used on some head bolts.
Just my opinion...Everyone has one...and they usually stink.
George Bonser
gr...@cris.com
George Jefferson
:> Because twelve is a multiple of four (3X4=12), an over-sized 12-point
:> socket works on a square nut.
:
:This is a really bad idea. The angles between the faces of the socket
:are wrong
further, for a square nut you need a hex (12 pt) wrench that is 1.23 times
bigger than the square size. You are unlikely to get a good fit
out of the usual tool set.
:and if there is any real torque needed to shift the fastener,
:then you'll probably round the edges of the nut.
On the other hand, I dont recall ever needing to put "real torque" on
a square nut.
--
george
geo...@mech.seas.upenn.edu
Bruce Hamilton
Scott Schering <Wal...@oneworld.owt.com> writes:
>>Seems to me that the 12 pt might be a bit stronger (less inclined
>>to strip) than a 6 pt.
News is delayed here, so somebody probably will by
now have pointed out the obvious. Socket sets were
developed to replace the whole suite of tube spanners
that "engineers" had to carry. Various industries used
industry-specific head shapes and sizes. In some
cases ( such as Whitworth ) the head dimensions have
even changed to conserve metal in wartime ( WWII
I think ).
The solution was to develop sockets that could cover
the most important applications ( 4-sided = coach bolts,
coach screws - used in construction where fixed
open-ended parallel-jaw spanners were common.
6-sided/6 point in the automotive and machine industries
where assembly involved less-accessible locations
for tube and open-ended spanners. Possibly 6 point
also required less head metal as well. ).
Note that there initially were steel four and six-sided
sockets (derived from tube spanners), but the versatility
of the stronger 12-point ( which could be called 24 sided :-) )
chromium-molybdenum steel socket rapidly replaced them.
Have a look at some old engineers tool kits in a museum
sometime, I've seen old heavy steel sockets with 4 and six
sides made from thick-wall steel tube. Also look at the ratchets ,
they required a much wider arc than modern ratchets, and
12-pointed sockets did help for inaccessible places.
>>It holds true for axle splines, more splines, stronger "joint".
>>(There is less metal removed.) Any takers?
Note that today some industries( eg oil industry ) use cap screws,
which are 12 point for larger bolts. The advantage is that the
head diameter is only slightly larger than the bolt diameter.
>as for the 12 point being stronger? I don't think so...
>I've never broken a 6 but I've cracked plenty of 12's
Generally modern six-point/six-sided sockets are also
designed for higher torques ( impact wrenches ), and
one of the reasons sockets replaced tube spanners was
the tendancy of the latter to revert to tubes :-)
>a 6 point is good for partly striped bolts (corners missing),
>Tight and or rusty bolts.. it works with the flats of the bolt
> not the corners like a 12.. the flats of the bolt not being
>likely to shear off like the corners, will allow you to apply
>more torque..
I think you will find the factor that determines the load on
the surfaces is the diameter of the bolt head, and one
reason Whitworth could be reduced was because the steel
quality had improved such that smaller heads ( and thus
smaller load area ) could be used to apply the same torque.
The cap screws have 24 sides ( 12 point ) and they take
amazing torques, yet the head diameter is only marginally
larger than the bolt ( the one in my hand is 25mm shank and
29mm peak-peak head diameter with 15mm depth.
Out of curiousity, what is the difference in price for a
quality Snap-On set versus the conventional set of
similar quality?.
Bruce Hamilton
robert edwards
(Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
> In article <3ug7vl$4...@paperboy.owt.com>
> Scott Schering <Wal...@oneworld.owt.com> writes:
>
> >>Seems to me that the 12 pt might be a bit stronger (less inclined
> >>to strip) than a 6 pt.
>...snip...
geez, i never would have thought that sockets could inflame such passion.
as i'm reading this there are 32 entries in this thread.
as my daddy always told me, use the right tool for the job. i'll stick to
6 points for hex headed bolts (craftsman, thank you very much, so that
when i do something dumb and screw up the wrench (or round off the points)
i just take it in and get a new one). then again, there's no such thing
as a tight spot on my '64 pickup with a six foot wide hood and an inline
six. i can actually climb *into* the hood compartment and stand on the
ground next to my engine. it's nice to have room when you're working.
incidentally, the craftsman 6 points that i have have the rounded out
corners that someone called "flank drive" for snap-ons. haven't rounded
out a nut with them yet, and i've had some nasty rusted on boogers. i'm
pleased with them.
rj edwards
robert_...@cellbio.duke.edu
robert edwards
<rgst...@dmacc.cc.ia.us> wrote:
> ch...@cs.buffalo.edu (Kevin P Chugh) wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > i have had this complaint for years and i'd like to know what everyone
> > thinks- i have been working on cars for a number of years now and have
> > done everything from changing my oil to rebuilding an engine and i have
> > never ever once needed a 12 point socket - my socket set came with
> > a bunch of 6 point and a bunch of 12 point and i would much much much
> > rather have a more complete set of 6-point - i'd like to have every
> > single metric size from 4-30 for example than have 4-19 in both 6 and 12
> > point - they always strip bolts and the extra half a 1/12 turn you save
> > in tight places is not worth anything - anyone agree?
> >
first thing i did when i bought my old pick-up was go out and but a
complete set of 6-point sockets. i knew i'd have plenty of rusted on
bolts that i didn't want to strip.
i remember trying to get a bolt off the brake backing plate on and old '63
pickup i had several years ago. no joke, to get one bolt off, i had to
put a 6 foot pipe on the end of a breaker bar and *jump up and down on the
end* believe it or not, it worked and i got the bolt off without
stripping it.
GBlessing
I have to take back, wish they would build a Sears closer. Regarding the
pick-up, ahh the good old days. Two radiator hoses, 2 heater hoses, 6 plug
wires and a coil wire. Things used to be lot easier, but near as fun!
J Blessing ASE Master Tech
GBlessing
new metric air and hand ratchets and impact guns!
Andy Dingley
> On the other hand, I dont recall ever needing to put "real torque" on
> a square nut.
Transmission drain plug
--
Andy Dingley din...@codesmth.demon.co.uk
Not every chimp has an AOL account
Greg Marciniak
|> Drbob27 (drb...@aol.com) wrote:
|> : As a general engineering point, I agree. However, my 12 point Snap-On
|> : sockets are convenient (easier to get on the bolt) and the flank drive
|> : feature (rounded out corners so the tool hits the hex a little in from the
|> : corner) makes them less prone to rounding off than a conventional 6 point.
|> : So I ask, why would anyone ever not use Snap On sockets :-) :-)?
|>
|> : Bob
|>
|>
|> how much are snap on sockets? i just want to add one more point - i
|> did use my 12-pt sockets to rebuild an engine - i was surprised to find
|> square nuts, no more round heads - no more star bolts like on chevy brakes-
|> circular with 2 flattened edges and i was thinking - how stupid - why not
|> any explanation?
|>
|> thanks,
|> kevin
I suspect Torx fasteners and some others are better in production
situations where large numbers of fasteners are installed using power
equipment.
Greg Marciniak