R134a vs R12
Robert Lockhart
Has anyone done a changeover from R-12 to R-134a? I have an '84 Cavalier, and
the evaporator is leaking. Since R-12 is about $17/lb, I figure why not just
go with the R-134a, but what extra do I need? Can I use the same compressor?
-Rob Lockhart
lock...@bsun01.phys.vt.edu
bro...@utkvx.utk.edu
I just received this message from someone I don't know. Please verify this
news if you could.
>Subject: Freon replacements
>
>The following is information regarding a drop-in replacement for Freon,
>as well as it's successor HC-134a.
>
>--------------------------- Begin text here -------------------------------
>
> Now that Freon is being phased out, when
> should you plan to spend the time and
> money to retrofit?
>
>
>
> NN NN EEEEEEEE VV VV EEEEEEEE RRRRRRR !!
> NNN NN EE VV VV EE RR RR !!
> NN NN NN EE VV VV EE RR RR !!
> NN NN NN EEEEEE VV VV EEEEEE RRRRRRR !!
> NN NN NN EE VV VV EE RR R !!
> NN NNN EE VVV EE RR R
> NN NN EEEEEEEE V EEEEEEEE RR R !!
>
>
> Here's why:
>
> HC-12a is an ozone-safe refrigerant.
>
> HC-12a is a direct replacement for HFC-134a
> HC-12a is compatible with HFC-134a and CFC-12
> refrigeration systems.
>
> HC-12a is up to 30% more efficient thatn CFC-12 and far
> more efficient than HFC-134a.
>
>
>
> You'll be glad to know:
>
> There are new Federal restrictions on the sale or use of HC-12a. In
> the EPA's Final Rule, published April 1, 1994, they state:
>
> "In this final rule, the Agency has determined that second-
> generation replacements, if they are non-ozone depleting and are
> replacing non-ozone depleting first generation alternatives.
> are exempt from reporting requirments under Section 612."
>
>The accompanying bruchure has a Q&A section as follows:
>
>What is HC-12a?
>
> HC-12a is a patented hydrocarbon refrigerant blend that was developed
> to be an effective replacement for HFC-134a, OZ-12, and all other
> substitutes for CFC-12(Freon). HC-12a has a zero ozone-depleting-potential
> (ODP) and a negligible global-warming-potential (GDP), making it the most
> environmentally sound refrigerant on earth.
>
>Will I have to retrofit?
>
> No. HC-12a is a direct drop-in replacement. It requires no retrofitting
> or redesigning of any refrigeration system because it is compatible with all
> the materials and oils (mineral or synthetic) in all systems. The savings
> can be enormous.
>
>What are some of the other advantages of HC-12a?
>
> It contains HC Friction Fighters that condition bearing surfaces, prolong-
> ing the life of the bearings. HC Friction Fighters dissolve energy-robbing
> condenser and evaporator deposits, reduce friction and improve thermal
> efficiency. HC Friction Fightes contain no graphite, paraffing, or Teflon.
>
> Hydrocarbon refrigernts do not become caustic if contaminated with moisture
> or oxygen.
>
> Hydrocarbon refrigerants are better conductors of heat and require less
> horsepower to compress, which reduces compressor wear and extends
> compressor life.
>
> Hydrocarbon refrigerants extend compressor winding life, produce negligible
> copper plating and coke formation on valves, and an extremely low content
> of chemical breakdown.
>
>Is HC-12a safe?
>
> Very. HC-12a is non-toxic. It is an organic, earth-friendly compound. As
> a hydrocarbon blend, HC-12a is flammable, but its ignition temperature is
> above 1490 F. Even so, a stron odor has been added to the product so that
> any leak in a refrigeration system can be readily detected.
>
>How efficient is HC-12a?
>
> Extremely. HC-12a is up to 30% more efficient than Freon, and far more
> efficient than HC-134a. This means less wear on you refrigeration system,
> substantial energy savings, and reduced fuel and energy costs.
>
>How do I install HC-12a?
>
> There are no now procedures to learn! The same gauges are used, and
> refrigeration systems are charged in the save manner used with the
> refrigerant being replaced.
>
>How is HC-12a packaged?
>
> HC-12a is available in containers equivalent to 12-fluid-ounce cans of
> HFC-134a, 12 cans to a case, and in 5-gallon containers euivalent 50
> pounds of CFC or HFC refrigerant. It is also available in bulk.
>
>Does HC-12a have EPA approval?
>
> HC-12a is a zero-ozone-depleting replacement for HFC-134a, OZ-12 and all
> other substitutes for Freon that are non-ozone-depleting. Epa's Final
> Rule, published April 1, 1994 states:
>
> "In this final rule, the Agency has determined that second-generation
> replacements, if they are non-ozone-depleting and are replacing non-
> ozone depleting first generation alternatives, are exempt from
> reporting requirements under Section 612"
>
>Is HC-12a guaranteed?
>
> HC-12a is guaranteed to perform as an efficient refrigerant in all systems
> designed for the use of HFC-134a and CFC-12 refrigerants. It is also guar-
> anteed not to harm refrigeration system components or any other related
> mechanical equipment if installed and used according to factory directions.
> Guarantee will be void if HC-12a is run through recycling equipment.
>
>Where can I buy HC-12a?
>
> OZ Technology, Inc. is currently setting up stocking distributors and value
> added resellers within the United States and has signed licensing agreements
> to manufacture the product in other countires. To find out if there is a
> stocking distrubutor of a value added reseller in your area, or to inquire
> about becoming a stocking distributor or value added reseller, contact
> OZ Technology, Inc. at 1-208-664-6196.
Do you know it's true or not?
-DonB
Tom Graham
>>
>>
>> You'll be glad to know:
>>
>> There are new Federal restrictions on the sale or use of HC-12a. In
>> the EPA's Final Rule, published April 1, 1994, they state:
>>
>> "In this final rule, the Agency has determined that second-
>> generation replacements, if they are non-ozone depleting and are
>> replacing non-ozone depleting first generation alternatives.
>> are exempt from reporting requirments under Section 612."
>>
>>The accompanying bruchure has a Q&A section as follows:
>>
>
But - the above quoted EPA rule is concerned with "non-ozone depleting first
generation alternatives". If R-12 is a first generation alternative, since
it is ozone depleting, then this rule does NOT apply for using HC-12a inplace
of R-12. Therefore, what "non-ozone depleting first generation alternative"
are they, EPA, talking about???
Or, could somebody please explain it to me in language an engineer can
understand !!!!! :-)
Tom
>
>Do you know it's true or not?
>
>-DonB
--
Tom Graham Unocal Corporate Information Services
Phone: (714)693-5808 5460 E. La Palma Ave.
Internet: tom.g...@st.unocal.com Anaheim Hills, Ca 92807
Mark Shaw
|> I just received this message from someone I don't know. Please verify this
|> news if you could.
|>
|> >Subject: Freon replacements
|> >
|> >The following is information regarding a drop-in replacement for Freon,
|> >as well as it's successor HC-134a.
|> >
|>
|> Do you know it's true or not?
Whether the claims for HC-12a are true or not, the caution that must be
applied to such products was clearly highlighted here in Phoenix about
a month ago. Someone had topped off their A/C system with one of these
substitutes (OZ-12, as I recall) and then had a serious compressor
problem. Whether the compressor problem was the fault of the drop-in
substitute was not the issue; but what this person found out was that
nobody wanted to work on the system. The reason was quite simple (and
understandable).
In order to work on any A/C system its contents must be drawn out into
tanks for processing by freon recycling firms. These firms will reject
tanks containing mixtures contaminanted by substances which they cannot
separate out. Otherwise they cannot resell the reclaimed freon back to
the industry.
Since tanks turned in for reclaim may be rejected, some A/C shops here
are even buying gas analysis equipment to test your system for unwanted
gases, BOTH they work on it. If your system is contaminated, you're
basically on your own to find someone who will have the bad mixture
properly disposed of and then cleanse out your system. Some quotes
for this were close to $1000 for repairs. Some savings, huh?
One misconception that is common is that after 1994 there will be no
freon available forever. After the end of 1994 there is supposed to
be no more MANUFACTURE of new freon sources. The existing supply
can continue to circulate through the recycle chain until it is
either exhausted or too costly to reclaim. The figures I remember
from Dupont seemed to show that the majority of CFC products were
used in the solvent/cleaning processes and not in auto A/C. The numbers
I recall for annual production were several times what could be held
by ALL the cars in the world. Stopping CFC's for solvent/cleaning
use was the major effect.
My advice to anyone thinking about any substitute for R-12 or R134a
is to avoid them unless you plan to do ALL the maintenance on your
A/C system and never plan to sell the car with the system installed.
Otherwise you may be in for some expensive repairs or buyer claims
down the road. And when the supply of R-12 is gone, then consider your
options, which current data seems to indicate can be a simple R134a
retro-fit. Information on this from SAE papers was posted earlier.
Mark
George Goble
>In article, bro...@utkvx.utk.edu writes:
>|> I just received this message from someone I don't know. Please verify this
>|> news if you could.
>|>
>|> >Subject: Freon replacements
>|> >
>|> >The following is information regarding a drop-in replacement for Freon,
>|> >as well as it's successor HC-134a.
>|> >
>|> >..............lengthy hype for HC-12a from OZ Technology deleted.................
>|>
>|> Do you know it's true or not?
>
>Whether the claims for HC-12a are true or not, the caution that must be
>applied to such products was clearly highlighted here in Phoenix about
>a month ago. Someone had topped off their A/C system with one of these
>substitutes (OZ-12, as I recall) and then had a serious compressor
>problem. Whether the compressor problem was the fault of the drop-in
>substitute was not the issue; but what this person found out was that
>nobody wanted to work on the system. The reason was quite simple (and
>understandable).
Hydrocarbon refrigerants lubricate/carry oil very well.. so one should
expect good compressor life from them.. unless it was overcharged
or something else happened..
HC-12a is more or less just OZ-12 (all hydrocarbons) with a little oil
thrown in .. so they can claim to be a substitute to OZ-12 instead
of R-12 try to thwart the EPA "ban". It will be interestering to
see what happens.
All the blends I know of, will work fine in (R-12) cars.. and will
intermix fine. They must be kept dry (unless it is pure hydrocarbons)
or the refrigerant will break down into acids.. Also, they (unless pure
hydrocarbons) must be kept out of R-134a systems since the PAG oil
will be destroyed..
>
>In order to work on any A/C system its contents must be drawn out into
>tanks for processing by freon recycling firms. These firms will reject
>tanks containing mixtures contaminanted by substances which they cannot
>separate out. Otherwise they cannot resell the reclaimed freon back to
>the industry.
>
>Since tanks turned in for reclaim may be rejected, some A/C shops here
>are even buying gas analysis equipment to test your system for unwanted
>gases, BOTH they work on it. If your system is contaminated, you're
>basically on your own to find someone who will have the bad mixture
>properly disposed of and then cleanse out your system. Some quotes
>for this were close to $1000 for repairs. Some savings, huh?
This is hype from the auto-industry.. to increase service costs
and new car sales when you need A/C work... Just like recent Popular
Mechanics' articles of "50,000 grenades on wheels" (refering to OZ-12)
in cars.. There have been no reported safety problems from that..
What about the tire-inflator kits?. They may have propane/butane and
mix with AIR in the tire (== a bomb).. but nobody bitches about
those.. since they don't impact the pocketbook of Detroit like
an R-12 substitute does.. Having an R-12 subsititute would allow
150 million vehicles to remain in use until they wear out naturally
instead of being "forced" out early by making people sweat.
Also, those magazines like Popular Mechanics, Car and Driver, etc
HAVE to print what the auto industry wants.. which means trying
to get rid of R-12 substitutes, and promote new car sales.. Look
where their advertizing money comes from? If any one of those magazines
ran anything favorable about any R-12 substitute, you can bet
that ALL of the automakers, would pull all their ads out.. for
months or more..which would mean economic suicide for the publication.
Those with the gold make the rules.
Almost no auto Air Shops "send it back" to reclaim centers... I personally
know several EPA approved "reclaim" centers (they check purity with
gas chromatographs).. and they seem to get almost nothing back...
People just use it or vent it illegally it seems.. Almost all auto
air shops "recycle" R-12 (suck it into a tank), and circulate it
through a drier/filter.. and stick it in the next guy's car.. They
do not send it to a reclaimer.. and other than the simple "dry-eye"
moisture indicator on their recycler, they have no means of checking
purity.. Most service techs (about 12 out of 12 in Indiana when I did
a survey), had "wet" dry eyes in their recyclers... many of them did
not even know what the "driers" were on their recyclers.. and never
changed them...
Dytel (red leak indicator) fouls the dry-eyes.. so does dirty
refrigerant..so they end up with NO indication of moisture
levels. So they put wet/dirty R-12 back in your car.. Works
fine for a few months.. then the R-12 hydrolyzes and breaks down
into acids (HCl & HF) which eat out your system.. causing leaks
and "sludge" plug ups.. This usually takes a few months.. so
the guy who did it is long off his 3mo warranty.. Now he gets
you back again in 6mo to year for "more service".. makes him
more money and trashes systems out faster over the long haug..
leading to... "its time to trade to a new car!"
There is now a moisture/acid analyzer "kit" on the market
called "Checkmate" which will test for moisture/acid
(10ppm by wt and 1ppm by weight) to ARI 700 specs in the field..
like taking a "blood" test.. I can't imagine very many auto
mechanics would want to "blow" $10 or more of testing supplies
on a car with a few oz of R-12 left in it..A reclaimer "lab"
test for ARI-700 purity now runs about $150, which check moisture,
acids, noncondensables (air), other refrigerants, oils, boiling/
bubble point, chlorides, etc..
One reclaimer I know, can separate out about any mix of refrigerants
and purify them.. National Refrigerants...
If the air shops returned their used R-12 to reclaim centers
(where it is returned to ARI standard 700 purity), cars would
be in far better shape.... but the air shops would have to
"buy back" the reclaimed R-12..(now about 80% the price of virgin
R-12) instead of getting it "free". They sometimes bill the car the
remove it from as well..(hazardous waste disposal)..then just
stick the dirty R-12 into the next car (charge them new R-12 prices)..
win.win.win situation for everybody but the consumer..
>
>One misconception that is common is that after 1994 there will be no
>freon available forever. After the end of 1994 there is supposed to
>be no more MANUFACTURE of new freon sources. The existing supply
>can continue to circulate through the recycle chain until it is
>either exhausted or too costly to reclaim. The figures I remember
>from Dupont seemed to show that the majority of CFC products were
>used in the solvent/cleaning processes and not in auto A/C. The numbers
>I recall for annual production were several times what could be held
>by ALL the cars in the world. Stopping CFC's for solvent/cleaning
>use was the major effect.
Those were "easy" to switch.. foam blowing was a major source also.
Those are all "gone".. Most of the ODU's from R-11 and R-113 have
been "converted" into R-12 production.. When that goes, there
is nothing left (CFCs).
In refrigeration/Aircond sector... leaking R-12 from cars is the
major source of CFC loss.. when most cars come in for service,
the R-12 is mostly or already gone.. the average car loses 1/2
lb or more of R-12/year (over 4 years old).. not much to recycle.
>
>My advice to anyone thinking about any substitute for R-12 or R134a
>is to avoid them unless you plan to do ALL the maintenance on your
>A/C system and never plan to sell the car with the system installed.
>Otherwise you may be in for some expensive repairs or buyer claims
>down the road. And when the supply of R-12 is gone, then consider your
>options, which current data seems to indicate can be a simple R134a
>retro-fit. Information on this from SAE papers was posted earlier.
>
Get an R-134a "retrofit".. have that fail in a few months.. and then
"trade up" to a new R-134a car... along with 100 million others..
It will stimulate the economy and provide lots of jobs in Detroit.
>Mark
--ghg
George Lyle (233789)
|> In article, bro...@utkvx.utk.edu writes:
|> |> I just received this message from someone I don't know. Please verify this
|> |> news if you could.
|> |>
|> |> >Subject: Freon replacements
|> |> >
|> |>
|> |> Do you know it's true or not?
|>
|> Whether the claims for HC-12a are true or not, the caution that must be
|> applied to such products was clearly highlighted here in Phoenix about
|> a month ago. Someone had topped off their A/C system with one of these
|> substitutes (OZ-12, as I recall) and then had a serious compressor
|> problem. Whether the compressor problem was the fault of the drop-in
|> substitute was not the issue; but what this person found out was that
|> nobody wanted to work on the system. The reason was quite simple (and
|> understandable).
|>
|> In order to work on any A/C system its contents must be drawn out into
|> tanks for processing by freon recycling firms.
Do they pay you $10 a pound for the freon they suck out? Just a random
thought...
|> These firms will reject
|> tanks containing mixtures contaminanted by substances which they cannot
|> separate out. Otherwise they cannot resell the reclaimed freon back to
|> the industry.
|>
|> Since tanks turned in for reclaim may be rejected, some A/C shops here
|> are even buying gas analysis equipment to test your system for unwanted
|> gases, BOTH they work on it. If your system is contaminated, you're
|> basically on your own to find someone who will have the bad mixture
|> properly disposed of and then cleanse out your system. Some quotes
|> for this were close to $1000 for repairs. Some savings, huh?
Of course, the backyard solution to this problem will be to disconnect a
A/C hose, dump the whole contents of the system into the atmosphere,
then take the car back to the AC shop to have the air evacuated and new
freon added. "Gee, it must have vibrated loose!" And don't quote
"violation of federal law" to me unless you can cite instances where it
was enforced on private individuals.
|> One misconception that is common is that after 1994 there will be no
|> freon available forever. After the end of 1994 there is supposed to
|> be no more MANUFACTURE of new freon sources. The existing supply
|> can continue to circulate through the recycle chain until it is
|> either exhausted or too costly to reclaim. The figures I remember
|> from Dupont seemed to show that the majority of CFC products were
|> used in the solvent/cleaning processes and not in auto A/C. The numbers
|> I recall for annual production were several times what could be held
|> by ALL the cars in the world. Stopping CFC's for solvent/cleaning
|> use was the major effect.
Funny, if the solvent/cleaning industry was was the major effort, why
are motorists suffering?
Actually, hydrocarbon mixtures seem to be a good solution as long as
they are compatible with the lubricants and seals in the system. I'd
love to have the nasty freon evacuated legally from my A/C if I could
fill the system with a hydrocarbon substitute. From that point on, I
could maintain the A/C system myself, as I have done successfully for
years. If the system is filled with only the hydrocarbon substitute,
there would be no problem with "contaminated freon".
George Lyle
P.S. What ever happened to the ROVAC system? It used air as its working
fluid, so there was no refrigerant at all. It seemed to work well
in its prototype, but nothing was heard after that. Perhaps DuPont
bought the patent? (conspiracy theory alert!)
Chris O'Neill
ma...@wdcwdc.sps.mot.com (Mark Shaw) wrote:
| In article, bro...@utkvx.utk.edu writes:
| |> I just received this message from someone I don't know. Please verify
this
| |> news if you could.
| |>
| |> >Subject: Freon replacements
| |> >
| |> >The following is information regarding a drop-in replacement for
Freon,
| |> >as well as it's successor HC-134a.
| |> >
| |> >..............lengthy hype for HC-12a from OZ Technology
deleted........
| |>
| |> Do you know it's true or not?
|
| Whether the claims for HC-12a are true or not, the caution that must be
| applied to such products was clearly highlighted here in Phoenix about
| a month ago. Someone had topped off their A/C system with one of these
| substitutes (OZ-12, as I recall) and then had a serious compressor
| problem. Whether the compressor problem was the fault of the drop-in
| substitute was not the issue; but what this person found out was that
| nobody wanted to work on the system. The reason was quite simple (and
| understandable).
|
| In order to work on any A/C system its contents must be drawn out into
| tanks for processing by freon recycling firms. These firms will reject
| tanks containing mixtures contaminanted by substances which they cannot
| separate out. Otherwise they cannot resell the reclaimed freon back to
| the industry.
|
| Since tanks turned in for reclaim may be rejected, some A/C shops here
| are even buying gas analysis equipment to test your system for unwanted
| gases, BOTH they work on it. If your system is contaminated, you're
| basically on your own to find someone who will have the bad mixture
| properly disposed of and then cleanse out your system.
The obvious way to avoid this problem is not to create a mixture in the
first place and to do this by completely replacing the freon. If you
completely replace the freon with HC-12 or whatever then the appropriate
procedures that apply to the new gas are then applicable. It's clear that
any mixture could have problems so if you want to use a new gas then in
general the best thing to do is to completely replace the old gas.
| And when the supply of R-12 is gone, then consider your
| options, which current data seems to indicate can be a simple R134a
| retro-fit. Information on this from SAE papers was posted earlier.
I missed that. Does it mean that the contamination problem of PAG oil has
been solved.
Chris O'Neill
Telecom Australia Research Labs
Milo
--
There are people who stictly deprive themselves of each and every eatable,
drinkable, and smokable which has in any way acquired a shady reputation.
They pay this price for health. And health is all they get for it. How
strange it is. It is like paying out your whole fortune for a cow that
has gone dry.
--Mark Twain
Alex Odyniec
George Goble <g...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>Get an R-134a "retrofit".. have that fail in a few months.. and then
>"trade up" to a new R-134a car... along with 100 million others..
>It will stimulate the economy and provide lots of jobs in Detroit.
OK I get the picture but seriously, why does the R-134a "retrofit"
have to fail?
I understand that it's impossible to get all of the mineral oil (and
thus some R-12) out of the compressor and the residual chlorine will
break down the PAG oil but what if:
when my compressor fails, I'll replace it with an R-134a compressor,
replace the drier with an R-134a drier, and soak out the rest of the
system (practically tubing) with several baths of non-chlorine
solvent?
Alex <ody...@uci.edu>
Danny Fitzsimon
Lo> Has anyone done a changeover from R-12 to R-134a? I have an '84
Lo> Cavalier, and the evaporator is leaking. Since R-12 is about $17/lb, I
Lo> figure why not just go with the R-134a, but what extra do I need? Can
Lo> I use the same compressor? -Rob Lockhart
Lo> lock...@bsun01.phys.vt.edu
From what hear/read, you will have to change out almost everything due
to the possibility of residual R12 contaminating the 134A. 134 does not
like ANY R12 left in the system. There can easily be R12 residue left
in the seals of the compressor after you have evacuated the entire system.
I keep hearing methods of flushing a compressor of R12 but the results
have been inconclusive.
Right now R12 can be had for about $10/lb. all over Texas and the south.
Danny
... I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12