On Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:10:10 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Which is best for dropping the transmission?
>
>Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount?
>* Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg
>* Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg
>* Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg
>

What is the risk off the tranny falling on you?

>Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
>http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg

The bolts have a torque range. Torque 'em and forget it.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 22, 2018, 2:37:31 PM7/22/18

to

On 22 Jul 2018 09:18:06 GMT, Oren wrote:

> What is the risk off the tranny falling on you?
>
>>Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
>>http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg
>
> The bolts have a torque range. Torque 'em and forget it.

I found out that almost nobody uses locktite on transmission bolts.
Flywheel yes. Transmission no.

I still might locktite it though, just because it's hard to get to the
upper 17mm transmission bolts on the bell housing (I had to use a series of
half-inch extensions 30" long with a swivel as the 3/8" extensions just
twisted more than a quarter turn and were useless).

The blue is the locktite I'll buy (I generally never use the stuff but I've
never done a transmission before - but I've done everything else that
people do as I don't think I've been to a mechanic in two decades and my
cars are all that old).
http://www.wdarc.org/Loctite%20Guide.pdf

I was hoping for more advice here than "if you don't know, then you should"
though. Sigh.

Anyway, as for the colors,
Blue is just help it from coming loose where proper torquing does the work.
Red is for permanent install, hard to come off
Green is for use on nuts and bolts that are already installed

This guide to locktite seems useful.
http://www.loctite.com.au/aue/content_data/354580_7128_Do_It_Right_Guide_v5_Approved.pdf

rbowman

unread,

Jul 22, 2018, 5:07:04 PM7/22/18

to

On 07/22/2018 12:37 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> Anyway, as for the colors,
> Blue is just help it from coming loose where proper torquing does the work.
> Red is for permanent install, hard to come off
> Green is for use on nuts and bolts that are already installed

If you're going to use any, blue is the way to go or the next time you
remove the transmission you'll be in there with a torch heating up the
bolts to soften the red.

I have never used LocTite on transmission, bellhousing, or pressure
plate fasteners.

unread,

Jul 23, 2018, 1:29:04 AM7/23/18

to

Oh my.

You _must_ support the engine. Either via a block of wood under the oil
pan, a trans lift under the pan, or a bar with chain across the shock towers
or hood opening. If you dont, the engine will tilt. Bad things can happen
like something goes through the radiator or the exhaust manifold breaks,
wires get ripped off, etc.
The cross member - remove it. It will make life a lot easier.
You did not say what specific engine, vehicle, trans, etc, but without
removing it it is doubtful that that there will be enough room to back off
the trans and then tilt forward to drop it with out breaking off the tail shaft.
So why are you removing the trans? To R&R the clutch?
If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.
You will need a clutch plate centering tool.
Thread lock- I tend to use blue thread lock on small bolts and nuts
that get torqued to inch pounds but not on large bolts that get
torqued to 100+ foot pounds. A suggestion: replace any lock washers.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 23, 2018, 2:09:02 AM7/23/18

to

You took out the cross member under the transmission, right? Do the
engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts
play a part? In other words, is the rear of the engine trying to rotate
downward and binding the transmission?

I don't know your vehicle, but usually a jack under the crankcase does
the trick. You're not trying to jack the engine up, just replace the
support provided by the transmission you're trying to remove.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 23, 2018, 2:12:25 AM7/23/18

to

On 07/22/2018 11:29 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
> If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.

Good advice. I've replaced two throwout bearings on my F150. I did the
clutch and pressure plate too the second time around even though both
were serviceable. The latest throwout bearing is composite, not cast
iron, and hopefully will last. For the record, it wasn't the bearing
itself but the body binding on the transmission.

Tekkie®

unread,

Jul 23, 2018, 2:40:13 PM7/23/18

to

Wade Garrett posted for all of us...

>
> On 7/22/18 4:10 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> > Which is best for dropping the transmission?
> >
> > Do you remove the crossmember, the bracket, or just the transmission mount?
> > * Crossmember http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6290082bracket03.jpg
> > * Bracket http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4222146bracket02.jpg
> > * Mount http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6137530bracket01.jpg
> >
> > Also, do you locktite the bolts when you re-install? (What color?)
> > http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9054142locktite01.jpg
> >
> If you have to ask those questions, the job is above your pay grade...

I believe this guy is the valve stem thread, harbor freight bead breaker,
tire spec, brake lining spec Ultrec nym shifter. If he would just post under
one name then I and more people would help him. Since I posted this the
insults and diversions will now start.

--
Tekkie

Terry Coombs

unread,

Jul 23, 2018, 4:27:18 PM7/23/18

to

Been there more than once on more than one bike . NOBODY puts a wrench
on my bike but me ... the 1990 Ultra recently got a total tranny rebuild
and new pistons/rings/valve tappets/top end gaskets plus a new primary
chain and comp sprocket set .

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 23, 2018, 5:51:57 PM7/23/18

to

On 22 Jul 2018 22:29:00 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> Oh my.
>
> You _must_ support the engine. Either via a block of wood under the oil
> pan, a trans lift under the pan, or a bar with chain across the shock towers
> or hood opening. If you dont, the engine will tilt. Bad things can happen
> like something goes through the radiator or the exhaust manifold breaks,
> wires get ripped off, etc.
> The cross member - remove it. It will make life a lot easier.
> You did not say what specific engine, vehicle, trans, etc, but without
> removing it it is doubtful that that there will be enough room to back off
> the trans and then tilt forward to drop it with out breaking off the tail shaft.
> So why are you removing the trans? To R&R the clutch?
> If so, then replace the throwout bearing while you are at it.
> You will need a clutch plate centering tool.
> Thread lock- I tend to use blue thread lock on small bolts and nuts
> that get torqued to inch pounds but not on large bolts that get
> torqued to 100+ foot pounds. A suggestion: replace any lock washers.

To answer your question, I am now supporting the engine but I don't think
it needed to be supported since nobody else does that that I could figure
out. With the jack on the engine and the transmission out, I can move the
engine about 1/2 inch or even less, so that might be helpful when lining it
up for the reassembly though.

The cross member and the sway bar were removed, and I'm glad it did that
because you need as much room as possible the first time you do it.

The Aisin clutch kit from Rockauto came with five pieces:
a. Clutch plate
b. Diaphragm
c. Pilot bearing
d. Throwout bearing
e. Alignment tool

I am replacing the clutch where it was worn to the rivets.

I'm kind of stuck now on whether to remove the flywheel and get a new one
or have it machined (and replace the oil seal behind it) or just keep it
where it is (the bolts are on really tightly and I can't tell if it needs
to be machined or not).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4230325sticking05.jpg>

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 23, 2018, 5:59:17 PM7/23/18

to

On 22 Jul 2018 23:09:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> You took out the cross member under the transmission, right?

Yup. And I'm glad I did as you need all the room you can get the first time
you do this job, especially since the transmission jack is kind of big.

> Do the
> engine mounts entirely support the engine, or do the transmission mounts
> play a part?

The engine is fully supported with the transmission out. Even so, I now
have a jack under it, just in case I want to move it upward to align things
on the replacement.

It was slipping for about 30 to 50 miles and stinking up a bit also.

> I would have it machined or replaced.

Machining is $60, replacement is in stock at one dealer at $716 (PN
13405-75040) plus $66.23 in sales tax, which makes that dealer $782.23.
When I gasped, the counter guy said he could take 20% off, which I didn't
know that dealers did discounts.

Calling another dealer, they didn't have it in stock but it was $588 plus
$54.39 in sales tax, which makes it 642.39.

At the local parts stores, a LUK flywheel is $95, O'Reillys PowerTorque
flywheel is $81.74, and the Autozone BrutePower flywheel is $82.

It always amazes me that the dealer parts guys don't know what brand
anything is, so I can't tell you who makes the Toyota flywheel but my
choice is one of the others, based on sheer price alone.

> Rent an electric impact wrench and socket if you need to.

I am about to try now, where I have a 1/2 inch motorocycle hand impact
driver, but I don't have 1/2 inch 12-point sockets, so I will try with a
1/2-inch to 3/8-inch adaptor but that seems like a kludge.

If that doesn't work, when I pick up the flywheel, I'll buy some 1/2 inch
12-point impact sockets (if they even exist).

I do have a 220VAC 20-gallon 120 psi compressor and an air impact gun but
the gun sucks and is only good for spinning off already loose bolts. I
don't know why it sucks. It never worked. I bought it 20 years ago, and it
just takes up space in my toolbox. I don't know how to pick a good one at a
good price where price is important because I almost never use the air
impact gun.

Maybe I'll buy an air impact gun, but since I need it today, I can only
shop Home Depot where I don't even know what they sell there or if it's any
good. Clearly the air impact gun I have sucks, so you can get sucky ones
for sure, and who wants that.

Tekkie®

unread,

Jul 24, 2018, 3:08:16 PM7/24/18

to

Arlen Holder posted for all of us...

You want to buy 6 point impact sockets...

IF you hold the flywheel you MAY be able to get it of with a cheater.

Electric impacts have improved. Your present air impact may be weak because
your setup cannot deliver enough air at sufficient pressure.

--
Tekkie

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 24, 2018, 5:14:07 PM7/24/18

to

On 23 Jul 2018 18:59:38 GMT, Terry Coombs wrote:

> Pilot bushings are most easily removed by filling them with grease ,
> then using a round bar that fits snugly to apply hydraulic pressure -
> put one end of that round bar in the bushing and smack the other end
> with a hammer . A big one works better ... the bushing will pop right out .

Thanks for that helpful advice Terry.

Since I've never done this, I need advice on even the simplest things if
I've never encountered them before.

For bearings, I have plenty of harmonic balancer pullers and gear pullers
but all of them latch to the OUTSIDE of a gear, hence they won't work on
this bearing because there's nothing to hold on to on the outside.

I didn't try the packed grease trick yet, but since I have to pick up the
new flywheel and rear engine seal anyway, I may as well pick up a bearing
puller at Home Depot or the auto parts store to get this pilot bearing out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4808619transmission01.jpg>

The main question I have is for Clare, which is how does that rear main
seal come out, and would he use the paper gasket that supposedly comes with
it or Toyota FIPG instead (or both)?

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 24, 2018, 5:16:10 PM7/24/18

to

On 24 Jul 2018 12:08:15 GMT, TekkieŽ wrote:

> You want to buy 6 point impact sockets...

The problem with that is that the flywheel bolts are 12 point.

> IF you hold the flywheel you MAY be able to get it of with a cheater.

The flywheel is off. I used a lock stop and a normal 1/2 inch breaker bar.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1744336transmission02.jpg>

> Electric impacts have improved. Your present air impact may be weak because
> your setup cannot deliver enough air at sufficient pressure.

I first tried the hand impact tool, and it failed.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1244980flywheel04.jpg>

Then I tried the air-impact gun, and it failed even worse.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4748611flywheel02.jpg>

The air pressure is 120psi and the hose is 50 feet of 1/2 inch line, and
the setting was set to 4 (smallest hole and to 1 biggest hole - as I'm not
sure which is high pressure and which is low pressure) and it didn't do a
thing (it never does, which is why I never use it).

It's a Universal Tool UT 2210:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5614055flywheel03.jpg>

Later, not today, I'll post a thread asking for a specific gun that I can
buy on the net that actually works that isn't too expensive (because I
almost never use a gun so it has to pay for itself with very few uses).

What worked is the old school method, which only took a little more effort:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1291741flywheel01.jpg>

What I need to ask Clare is how to get to that rear engine seal.
Do I take out all those bolts around the pilot bearing area?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4808619transmission01.jpg>

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 1:47:36 AM7/25/18

to

On 24 Jul 2018 19:17:56 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> The OEM bolts have thradlocker on them. Clean the threads - both on
> the bolt and in the holes - use the primer made for the threadlocker,
> and use the medium strength locker (Blue)

Thanks for that advice Clare as I don't generally deal with threadlockers.

I saw your post only after I returned from the parts trip, where I had
already picked up Loctite Red 271 and Permatex Red, and Loctite Blue 242
and Permatex Blue based on what the two different parts stores told me to
get when I asked what they put on flywheels and bellhousing bolts.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4130173fluids01.jpg>

Somewhere I read we have to FIPG the rear main oil seal, but now I think
they mean to put FIPG in place of that paper gasket under the cover that
holds the rear main oil seal.
<https://www.yotashop.com/toyota-2-7l-2-4l-crankshaft-rear-main-seal-set-rm957/>

I had already picked up this high temperature Permatex "gasket maker",
where the purpose one is called Permatex Ultra Synthetic Gasket Maker"
which "resists up to 500d F intermittent" and the Red RTF High Temp Gasket
Maker says "resists up to 650d F intermittent".
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9599745fluids02.jpg>

I didn't know to pick up the primer. I'll have to go back tomorrow to get
that primer (do you think carb cleaner or acetone will work?)

I don't mind doing things the right way - but I just have to know what the
right way is, where I didn't know about the primer until this moment.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 1:47:38 AM7/25/18

to

On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
> sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
> out, and carefully drive it in.

Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.

This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
<https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg>

It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
<https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003>

Even though it's in the back of the engine:
<https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html>

It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
<https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012>

The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).

They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg>

Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).

I'd really like to replace that seal even though it isn't leaking, because
if it does ever leak, you have to remove the transmission to get to it.

I'll try another dealer tomorrow (there are two within 30 miles of me).

> and DEFINITELY replace that pilot bearing!!!!!!!

Yup. I'm taking all your advice. The kit comes with a pilot bearing:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg>

> You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
> most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
> like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -

The amazing thing is that I went to two parts stores today, both of which
rent out the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer (separately), where the
amazing thing is that the bearing pullers are all TOO BIG to fit inside
this pilot bearing!

The people at both stores tried to fit it inside the new bearing, which,
luckily, I had in my pocket, where they're too fat even though you can
slide the teeth forward one at a time.

It's pretty amazing since this looks like a pretty standard engine and so
it has a pretty standard pilot bearing, right? The pilot bearing is a "6201
RS" which is a very common bearing for lots of shafts.

The tool is two pieces, as you noted.
1. A slide hammer that screws into the back end of the tool
2. The tool itself, which has both sliding and expanding jaws

Yet, both bearing pullers I tested at those two parts stores were too big.

I could rent one, and then grind it down to fit, but that would be abuse.
If I could have found a tool that fit, I would have bought it already.

I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 4:44:00 PM7/25/18

to

Clutches have gotten much better in the last few decades. Some of the
old cars from the 40's and 50's had to have the clutch routinely
serviced/replaced about every 50K miles. The durn brakes had to be
adjusted every few thousand miles, and tuneups with new points.

I drove a small 1990 ford FWD car for 250,000 miles and never replaced
the clutch, though lots of other things needed minor repairs. But I
never abused the clutch ... There were no teenage drivers.

The point is to not overdo this. The car may up and die from some
unrelated cause after you have gone the full 9 yards and spent a small
fortune.

If it wasn't Elvis Presley's car, or a priceless antique, your
investment is wiped out when it dies.

Good luck, and hoping you fix that buggy soon!

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 5:23:12 PM7/25/18

to

On 25 Jul 2018 13:19:54 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

> That can work great. But the biggest problem is finding a drift or bar
> stock that EXACTLY fits the pilot bearing ... especially if the latter
> is badly worn and possibly distorted. It is definitely worth a try
> though, if you can't find a tool that fits.

Thanks to the suggestions from Terry & Clare and others, the pilot bearing
is out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg>

I first tried the grease gun with an M12x1.25 bolt but my gun is old (it's
from the 1940's AFAIK) and it wasn't working well and the grease was too
thin (but I left it in the hot sun to take pictures and that didn't help).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9892867pilot01.jpg>

I used the wife's home made pizza, chewed up, and placed in the pilot hole.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1163525alignmentpin02.jpg>

An M12x1.25 bolt that I bought to make dowel pins out of worked fine with
parafilm wrapped on the threads to snug it up a bit.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4879341pilot03.jpg>

It only took about 10 minutes but it took am amazing number of refills.

Thanks everyone for that idea. Since the clutch fork fell out while I was
tipping the transmission on its end to look at the rear seal, everything is
out now (I just have to figure out how it all goes back together!).

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 25, 2018, 5:28:56 PM7/25/18

to

On 25 Jul 2018 05:57:38 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> For gasket maker I never use anything but "the right stuff" from
> Permatex

Thanks Clare.
I'm pretty much ready for reassembly.

I'm not sure if I pack the pilot bearing area with grease or not:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg>

But here's that promised before & after flywheel photo with part numbers
stamped "Engineerd in USA PHT50-136-033118" on the new flywheel:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6217915flywheel001.jpg>
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4020392flywheel002.jpg>

One screwup is that the clutch fork and throwout bearing fell out when I
tipped the transmission vertical on the bell housing to look at the rear
seal where I'm not sure what the proper technique is to get it out.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5004047rearseal01.jpg>

So I'm looking up how they went back together where I should have marked
the position when I first took the transmission off the engine.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9205011fork01.jpg>

Most of my mistakes and questions are because I've never done this before.
Thanks for your patience and advice.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 11:18:52 AM7/26/18

to

On 25 Jul 2018 19:54:00 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> You are NOT a mechanical engineer..FOLLOW THE TORQUE SPECSs!!!!!!!
> You do NOT want a flywheel bolt fracturing after you have it all back
> together and running!!!!!!!!!!!
> The torque spec is correct, and was arrived at for a good reason
> The difference is the 3RZ uses torque to yield, or "stretch" bolts
> (which SHOULD be replaced every time they are removed)
> You do NOT want to over-stretch a bolt that is not designed for
> "torque to yield" - or strip the threads out of the crankshaft
> either!!!!!!!!

EDIT: I sent this yesterday but I see it failed and was still in my inbox.

Hi Clare,
Thanks for that advice as I hadn't thought of that (I keep doing things
after you mention them because I don't know what you'll mention).

You have a good point there. I'm not a mechanical engineer. I didn't
realize the 3RZFE bolts should be replaced since I didn't see that
anywhere.

What you say makes sense. I'll back them out tomorrow and re-torque them to
the original spec. I did make sure that I put all 10 bolts in, and then
tightened all ten, and then removed each in a star pattern, one by one, to
torque them so that the torque would be even.

I did the same on the 6 bolts of the diaphragm.

I stopped at the point of putting the transmission back in as I have to
modify the jack because of a stupid placement of the front-to-back lever
where it hits the transmission and can't go as far as I need it.

I also knocked off loose the throw out bearing, so I'm going to rubber
band the fork at the outside so that doesn't happen gain.

I also moved the dowel pins I made so that both are on the bottom because I
couldn't see the one at the top anyway.

Here are some shots, but I have to finish this job so they're not annotated
well.

I first hand tightened and then tool tightened all 10
flywheel bolts, and then removed them one at a time in
a star pattern to torque and loctite blue them where I
then painted a white dot indicating bolts that are done.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3249536clutch008.jpg>

You can stick a 10mm battery holddown rod into the flywheel
holes to immobilize it but you're still going to need to
immobilize the flywheel later by wedging a prybar against
the teeth, so it's a waste of time to use the rod and,
besides, it gets in the way of long torque wrenches.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3686120clutch007.jpg>

This is the clutch disc on the flywheel showing the correct
alignment of the springs, which face toward the transmission.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1640228clutch006.jpg>

Putting the clutch on the flywheel was a breeze, where I jammed a
prybar into the flywheel teeth to immobilize it, and where I
put the alignment tool in the center. It was so easy, I'm not
sure what would have happend without the alignment tool as there
was nothing that I needed to align that I could tell.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6173425clutch005.jpg>

I have to modify the jack which is stupidly designed such that you
can't twist the lever for adjustment when the transmission is on
the jack. Also I have to rubber-band the clutch fork so it doesn't
fall loose again when I'm jiggling the transmission into place.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2711707clutch004.jpg>

I greased the TOB fork but I need thicker grease than Mobile 1 bearing
grease:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3390937clutch003.jpg>

This shows the clutch on the engine with the temporary dowel pins ready:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4146979clutch002.jpg

The transmission easily rolls to the temporary dowel pins
but that's where I needed the angle adjustment that the
badly designed transmission jack won't allow yet.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6936189clutch001.jpg>

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 6:29:36 PM7/26/18

to

Hi Clare,
You probably won't respond in time to help advise, me, but it's just not
going in.

I remember folks discussing putting the transmission in high gear (fifth in
this case), but I can't see why - but maybe it's to twist the transmission
shaft so that the male splined shaft at the front can be rotated a bit to
fit into the engine female splines?

I've been in neutral up until now, but I put the transmission in fifth but
what do you turn to rotate the shaft at the front?

The only thing there is are the splines on the back, but how do you turn
them? You can't get your fingers in there and you need a female spline
which you won't have.

I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
How do you rotate it?

dsi1

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 6:53:51 PM7/26/18

to

Make sure the engine and transmission are meeting at the correct angles. They have to be going in straight to each other. Check to make sure you haven't knocked the clutch disk out of alignment.

Paul in Houston TX

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 7:53:40 PM7/26/18

to

Did you try both the clutch disk and the pilot brearing on the trans
before assembly?
If they fit ok then keep jigging the trans or back it out and turn the
shaft a couple of degrees by hand and try again.
Where is the drive shaft? Can you plug it into the back of the trans?
Tie the other end up on something to get it ~level.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 9:50:54 PM7/26/18

to

On 26 Jul 2018 16:51:31 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> Did you try both the clutch disk and the pilot brearing on the trans
> before assembly?

Ah. No. I didn't even think of that.
Luckily it must fit - but that is a GREAT idea as a double check!

> If they fit ok then keep jigging the trans or back it out and turn the
> shaft a couple of degrees by hand and try again.

I jiggled with my head by the differential and my feet up on the
transmission (boy am I glad I removed the crossmember!) and jiggled that
transmission like it was a bowl of jelly. Something in all that jiggling
worked!

> Where is the drive shaft? Can you plug it into the back of the trans?
> Tie the other end up on something to get it ~level.

Thanks for that idea of the drive shaft. It's right here, but it never
occurred to me to use it. Now I know! Thanks.

I wonder if it's normal to have to move the transmission front shaft by
about 1/16 of an inch or so to make sure the splines line up with those
inside the pressure plate and clutch disc?

Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 9:51:05 PM7/26/18

to

On 26 Jul 2018 17:50:07 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

>>I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
>>How do you rotate it?
>

> Stick the driveshaft in.

Hi Clare,
I didn't think of that!

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

Anyway, yet again, your answer came too late, but it's good to know as I
would have asked why on earth people said to put the transmission in the
high (fifth) gear, since that's the *only* step where it's needed (any gear
works fine for the rest of the transmission job).

I tried to use pliers on the shaft on the back of the transmission but
there's absolutely zero chance you'll spin it that way.

What I ended up doing was loosening the straps on the transmission jack and
then putting my head way back at the differential, and my feet on the back
of the transmission and I jiggled the transmission like it was a bowl of
jello.

When I went forward to look at the effect, voila, the bolts were lined up
and slid onto my two 17mm diameter threaded 3-inch dowels (which were a
Godsend, where I'm super happy that I machined them!).

I didn't use any loctite because I want to put all the bolts in first, and
then snug them up, and then remove one by one, to loctite blue when I'm
actually ready to torque them.

At this point, I don't have any questions as I'm just at the stage of
putting back the myriad bolts and sensors and fluid.

I have two now-old questions that I would love more detail on, both of
which are about "alignment" of the transmission shaft.

1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)

2. When I got stuck in the last inch or two on the transmission, I didn't
know why it wouldn't go that last inch. I thought of what it could be and
the most likely was that I was off center with the flywheel but it could
also have been maybe that the splines weren't lined up? If the splines
weren't lined up, would that stop the clutch from going in, or, would they
just line themselves up while I jiggled (something in that jiggling worked,
but what)?

I must repeat that neither of those two questions is critical because I'm
past that stage, but I'm curious about what exactly is aligned by the
plastic tool, and whether the splines in the end will line up on their own
with just jiggling or if the drive shaft is needed.

If the drive shaft is needed, it must only twist a teeny tiny amount,
because how much twisting could it take to align those splines (1/16th
inch?).

Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

rbowman

unread,

Jul 26, 2018, 11:17:35 PM7/26/18

to

On 07/26/2018 07:51 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> 1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
> alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
> transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
> notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
> what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)

If the clutch plate was aligned with the pilot bushing when you bolted
down the pressure plate you would know what the tool was for. How would
you align it without the tool?

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 8:13:59 PM7/27/18

to

On 22 Jul 2018 08:10:10 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

> Which is best for dropping the transmission?

SOLVED!

It's done. I am gonna take it for a smoke test.

The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),
and the alignment tool that came with the clutch kit, and the assortment of
extension bars, and the two M12x1.25 3-inch threaded dowels.

In the end, I removed more than is necessary, but I'm glad I did remove the
front wheels (particularly the driver side), the front sway bar, the entire
harness (every bolt and every sensor), and the cross member.

The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
back in, which is the only job that really required two people. I did
everything else alone. The second hardest task was lining up the
transmission to go in because you're staring at a hunk of aluminum not
knowing why it won't move forward.

The top two 17mm bell housing bolts were not easy, but not all that
difficult with 30 inches of extensions and swivels.

Pouring the new Redline MT-90 into the conning tower turns out to be the
*easiest* way to refill a transmission, bar none.

Having four 15-inch jack stands was instrumental, as I needed at least 23
inches of clearance from the frame to get the transmission in and out.

The actual transmission work was easy, including the diaphragm, the pilot
bearing, the throwout bearing, and the fork, but I would have liked thicker
grease on the fork (but I only had Mobil 1 bearing grease).

I wrote up a detailed DIY so that others could benefit from all the work,
and I took hundreds of pictures. I don't know if I'll ever associate the
pictures with each task, but I'll try to help others.

Thanks for all your advice and help. If there is a bedding procedure, now
is the time to let me know! Pictures later.

I very much appreciate you help, because it's my first clutch job ever and
I have nobody around me who knows anything about cars - so your advice was
instrumental!

Hank Rogers

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 8:20:47 PM7/27/18

to

Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
for a while before you lean hard on it.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 27, 2018, 9:07:33 PM7/27/18

unread,

Jul 28, 2018, 2:32:16 AM7/28/18

to

On 27 Jul 2018 19:16:22 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

>>If it's a 1:1 ratio, then it would seem only the teenies tinyies twist of
>>the driveshaft is what's needed.
>>
>>Is that assumption correct?
>
> yes

Thanks again for all your help.
I am happy to have finally, after many decades of being afraid of doing a
transmission, gotten my "boy scout badge" for doing one.

It's probably my first and last transmission ever, but I have already
forgotten about the "thousand situps" I did, in effect, by getting up and
down to get tools and parts over the past five days.

I'm told sometimes even transmission shops take as long (elapsed time) as I
did to replace a clutch, although I would think, in actual shop hours, the
job would be less than six or seven hours (I'm guessing though).

It took me longer because I documented every single step down to the detail
of the thread pitch, and I took many pictures, and I cleaned up the parts,
and I had to learn each time how to do the steps I had never done (like
aligning the transmission splines).

Most of the time the answers came too late, as I had figured them out by
then, but it's very nice to know that the solution I came up with (except
on torque) was the right one in the end.

I don't know what I'll do with that transmission jack. It will probably
take up space in my garage forever though. :)

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 28, 2018, 3:26:36 PM7/28/18

to

On 27 Jul 2018 18:10:52 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Reading between the lines he is not the principal driver. Maybe take it
> for a long, gentle road trip before handing it over...

She drove it today on the highway and said it didn't vibrate, which is good
because I had mounted and balanced her tires and replaced her rear drums
where I made a rookie mistake by not putting the drum linkages back right.

This time, I rotated the tires again (she eats them up where I wish there
was a way to cash in on the warranty since the car is aligned
professionally and the tires are rotated five times a year in the X and
then H pattern repeatedly (X then H then X then H, etc.).

I wonder if there is a way to "prove" you rotated tires when you do them at
home? I never cashed in on a tire warranty in my life so I don't know how
it works (do you ship them back the four tires, for example?).

I learned a lot I hadn't expected to learn, by the way, such as this is
what the reverse sensor looks like apparently:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2972461reverse_switch.jpg>

And this is apparently the speedometer sensor:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8225189speedometer.jpg>

And that the clutch disc is asymmetric so it has to go in only this way:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4293915clutch_disc.jpg>

Filling the transmission with the Red Line MT-90 was a breeze from the top:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6063171trans_fliud.jpg>

But I wonder what this strange-looking "K" means on the conning tower?
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1401901tower_k.jpg>

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 28, 2018, 6:08:59 PM7/28/18

to

On 28 Jul 2018 10:18:34 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> On a rwd car or light truck anything over 3 hours means the mechanic
> is slacking oir something went wrong.

Thanks for that information on the 3 hours as this is a RWD, and a 2WD
which has as much room as you can every have on a passenger vehicle.

So, I suspect, the job doesn't get any easier than the one I did, since
there is no 4WD to deal with and the amount of room is astronomical
compared to, oh, say, a typical sports sedan.

I didn't count the hours it took me, but if I count four hours each day of
actual work, that's 6x4=24 hours, which is, for me, acceptable because I
spent a lot of time learning, cleaning, experimenting, making tools,
modifying the jack, swearing, and cursing, and, drinking copious amounts of
lemonade kindly brought to me every few hours by the grandchildren (who
felt sorry for me but who didn't know I was in heaven as I finally, after
decades of being scared, did my first transmission).

The kid whose car it is came over today to pick it up, and she tested it on
the highway, and it worked fine she said (I only tested it locally).

It has 180K miles, where it's definitely only the second clutch as the
vehicle has been in the family since it was born. So a clutch on this
vehicle lasts about 90K miles, on average, since the last one was slipping
also when it was replaced (by a mechanic).

Total cost to me was something around $250 for tools and another $250 for
parts, so it's an approximately $500 gift to the kid who works as a
secretary so she doesn't have a lot of money.

I never could have had the confidence if I didn't know you would help, so
I'm extremely glad for your patience on my rookie questions. I didn't even
realize that the alignment tool did, for example, until *after* I had the
transmission in. And I didn't understand why people said to put it in high
gear since I didn't need to touch the gears at any point in time, so I only
figured that one out after I had trouble getting it back in.

Things like that slowed me down, where, if I had formal education in auto
mechanics, I would have known a LOT more before I did the job. As it is,
the job taxed my tools to the utmost limit, where I was so happy that I had
dozens of assorted half inch and three-eighths inch extensions and swivels
and sockets and wrenches.

In fact, I think this is the first time in my life that I *required*
half-inch tools, since up until now, the 3/8ths inch extensions didn't
twist more than the torque required. But I never had to use 30 inches of
extension before either - which is what is required for the top two bolts
on the transmission hump.

Note in the DIY: Removing the conning tower seems like it would have made a
HUGE improvement in easy of removal!

> I did a Loadstar school bus clutch with the shop foreman (an idiot
> dutchman) barking over my shoulder when I was about 19 in less than 4
> hours - and that included pulling the trans, dropping the clutch,
> installing the clutch (having the disk slip out of place and hastilly
> re-installing it) totally re-assembling then finding I had, in haste,
> installed the disk backwards - dissassembling it again. puttingthe
> disk back in the right way, knocking the release bearing off the fork,
> reinstalling it in haste, checking the clutch BEFORE reistalling the
> floor this time, and having the pedal drop to the floor because I had
> put the release bearing in backwards, dis-assembling, reinstalling the
> release bearing, retesting (got it right this time) and buttoning it
> back up.

Wow. 4 hours. Jesus. I didn't even have all the tools assembled, made and
modified in four hours!

I see you accidentally did what I did which is to knock the release bearing
(aka throwout bearing) off, where any tug on the fork caused the TOB to
fall off the splined transmission shaft until I rubber-banded it in place.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5303450clutch_fork.jpg>

I didn't remove that rubber band until I put the slave cylinder back!
(NOTE: I recently rebuilt the clutch master cylinder and clutch slave
cylinder and replaced the two rubbery plastic bushings in the shift lever,
so, except for the actual transmission itself, the entire shifting system
is all new in the last year.)

I did buy too many jacks though - as now I have an ATV jack in addition to
my transmission jack to store for the rest of my life! (I've already
offered my neighbors the right to borrow them since "they" have ATVs, but I
don't.) <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9075127atv_trans_jack.jpg>

> Nasty 400 lb? transmission, and working INSIDE the bell housing as the
> bell housing served as the rear mounting for the engine.

Yuck. You never forget those jobs!
(I envy you for all your experience!)

> I was a few minutes over flat rate time - even with all the screw-ups
> - and I gave the shop foreman a good piece of my mind when it was all
> over.

It's commendable, with the reassembly you did, that you met flat rate.

> "push me and all you'll do is slow mw down - or get run over in the
> process"

Luckily, my wife and kids left me alone, which is all well and good as they
would have been standing over me like your foreman was, just slowing me
down even further.

> Same fool who couldn't diagnose a headlight problem on a 510 Datsun -
> all 4 sealed beams were burned out. He kept asking me questions while
> I was working on another job. After his second or third question I
> knew what was wrong - but he kept asking the wrong questions for 2
> hours - while trying to tell me how to fix a dome light that would not
> shut oiff on a brand new Ambassador (found a screw through the wiring
> harness)

Wow. That's something you just have to trace to find since you wouldn't
expect a screw in a wiring harness normally. You work backward or forward,
usually backward, until the power or continuity is shot, and that tells you
where the problem is ... if ... if you can get to it. (A wiring harness can
be anywhere though.)

> When I finished the Ambassador I said "you still working on that
> datsun?"
>
> He said "you so F'n smart - YOU fix it"

Hehhehheh...

> I hollered to the parts department "2 5001s and 2 5006s please", then
> proceded to replace the sealed beams , without checking ANYTHING
> first.

Wow. You figured it out just on the problem set presented to you.

> He was MAD that I hadn't told him what was wrong - bet the silly ass
> had never asked me. He's managed to ask just about every other
> question it was possible to come up with (something like you do on
> accaision, Arlen) - but never asked me what I thought the problem was.

I do ask a lot of questions ... but ... on the good side ... you have to
admit that I think for myself (I don't think what everyone else thinks for
example, in that I think about octane, and I think about how to diagnose as
I never throw parts at a problem unless I'm backed up against the wall, and
I always look at the parts to figure out how they work and I often take
them apart for an autopsy to see how they failed.

I should note to you that I'm extremely well educated but not in this
stuff. I have multiple degrees, but in fields completely different than car
or home repair. So I'm very used to asking questions, and I'm extremely
used to what people "think" is the answer intuitively, often (and sometimes
almost always, at least in the case of quantum mechanics) is dead wrong.

So, for example, people "think" you can't balance tires at home ... but you
can. And they think you can't mount them at home - but you can. And they
think you can't measure alignment at home, but you can (I still need to
prove that though).

Another thing about me, Clare, that is extremely different than most
people, is that I CARE about being a good Usenet citizen, even as I value
my privacy. So I always *respond* to most people in any thread I author,
which some people consider trolling, which is ridiculous since I'm simply
being responsive.

I almost always prove what I say I'm doing with photos.
And I almost always write up a DIY to give back to the team.

I almost always summarize the results in the end, and I thank the people
for helping me (where, I often condemn those who don't like the few who
posted early on in this thread, such as Wade Garrett who has been stalking
me from the iOS threads) but in this case, I had too much on my hands to
even bother to tell those useless posters to shut up.

I'm DIFFERENT than almost everyone you've ever met.

How many, for example, write a detailed DIY every time they do a big job?

Other than my privacy fetish (which drives some of you nuts I think even
though I never hide who I am so anyone who claims to figure it out isn't
the genius they think they are simply because it's trivial to do), I'm one
of the best Usenet posters there is because I ask a question and prove
everything I say, and try out every reasonable suggestion (if possible) and
I respond to everyone in the same manner in which they responded to me.

I'm only on Usenet to ask questions and to learn from people who have the
answers. I'm not here for idle chitchat, so I disappear until I have
another question.

I love to learn from you, and I will eventually do the six jobs few do at
home but you've done most of them.
1. Refuel a vehicle (I do it every week where I have it down to a science)
2. Mount, balance, & repair tires (I'm well past the tool break-even point)
3. Major transmission work (a clutch counts since R&R is the hard part)
4. Major internal engine work (I've never ripped an engine apart yet)
5. Paint a car (a grandchild has a handmedown I'd love to paint for her)
6. Align caster, camber & toe (this will be my next project for sure)

I think each of those things above has a DIFFERENT reason people don't do
them, where you have to admit at the very least, even if you disagree with
me, that I think for myself, so I don't follow what most people assume (and
which in some cases I've found to be dead wrong).

For example, refueling a vehicle is trivial, safe, and easy, and I've been
doing that for a decade or more at home (where if I ever get some money,
I'll buy even better gas-station equipment, which is surprisingly
inexpensive but where the limiting factor isn't the equipment but that they
don't deliver less than 200 gallons at a time in general).

Also, despite what most people think, and yes, I know you have TONS of
experience mounting and dynamically balancing a tire and you wouldn't do it
at home, I can mount and balance a sedan tire in fifteen minutes (and you
know that I don't make shit up), where in general, I take longer (because
I'm not in a rush) but it's never longer than a half hour elapsed time
where once you taught me about the "drop center", all was golden from there
(after I had to modify both the tire bead breaker and the tire mounting
tool).

I think the reason people DON'T do these 6 things is... sort of...
1. Fueling --- they don't have the room (I have more than a dozen acres)
2. Mounting --- they "think" it has to be dynamically balanced
3. Transmission --- it's a *lot* of work (whew!) but mostly just bolts
4. Engine --- it's even *more* work (where nobody can afford the downtime)
5. Paint --- you need skills and experience more than the tools
6. Align --- they don't realize how easy toe & camber are to measure

I may be wrong on all of that, because I don't know how people really
think, but you have to admit at least that I think for myself.

Take, for example, the mounting. I already know that mounting is *easy* on
passenger cars, and that it's only a bit harder on truck (SUV) tires.
Anyone who says it's not easy, or that you'll damage the rims (my Bimmer
rims are as soft as most alloy wheels and they're just fine) is talking out
of their ass - because I know - like you know - because I've done it about
25 times now (the tools paid for themselves in about 20 changes).

Anyone who thinks you can't patch plug from the inside doesn't know what
they're talking about. And anyone who thinks you must dynamically balance
every tire doesn't know what they're talking about (IMHO).

I had only one wobble in all this time, and that was due to doing the rear
brake drum wrong (it was a rookie mistake - where I've had disc brakes on
all my high end cars since the 80s until now that I do other people's cars
to help them out. (I know you think that's a lawsuit waiting to happen, but
I do the same on their cars as I would mine where I *know* (as you do) how
many times mechanics skip steps.)

So, yes, I'm different.
I'm intelligent.
I can learn.
I care about my privacy.
I respond to almost everyone worth responding to.
I usually confront the cowardly troll bullies in the threads I author
I ask a question and work it until it's resolved
I post a resolution and almost always write a DIY
And then I disappear (until the next question).

The morons call that being a troll.
I call it being a good Usenet citizen who cares about privacy and doesn't
use the chitchat model (where in the chitchat model people post 99% to
other threads saying almost nothing of value and only 1% to their own
threads, where in the Q&A model, the opposite it true in every way).

> Clean it up, paint it gold, and keep it as a trophy - - - -

I have tools from the 60s, and even some from the 40's, like this grease
gun, where the grease must be thirty years or forty years old inside! :)
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7261355grease_gun.jpg>

QUESTION: That was my dad's grease gun. How old do you think it is?
(I don't know when he bought it as I inherited all his old tools.)

And these impact tools date to the mid 80's as I recall:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6129026airgun_sucks.jpg>

This Craftsman respirator I used when I was blowing out the bell housing
and flywheel dust dates to the 80s for sure when I first attempted
to paint a car (but ended up selling the car in the winter where if you've
never lived in a cold climate - you have no idea how much harder everything
is in the winter and when it rains a lot).
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7615636respirator.jpg>

And without a cutting wheel and bench grinder, fabricating these two
invaluable threaded dowels would not have been as easy as they were:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9848347dowel_fab.jpg>

My next two jobs that you'll hear from me are:
a. I want to paint a car, and,
b. I want to align a suspension.

I think both of those two are doable, but I will do my research first and
then, when I'm in the job itself, I may ask you for help to get past the
stumbling blocks.

I don't expect a miracle with the paint job, but anything will look better
than the handmedown paint that the kid has on the car now so I can't make
it much worse. :)

As for the alignment, this vehicle only has camber and toe in the front
that can be changed by twisting a bolt, so that's easy if I buy (or make)
toe plates. The measuring is easy but changing the toe with the weight on
the vehicle is a pain because of the rolling back and forth so I'll likely
just buy toe plates first. Also alignment is a mental bitch because
everything is in the wrong units. You measure inches, for example, but it's
usually in degrees to centerline. WTF. That causes your brain to hurt as
you use trig to figure out the translation.

At least camber is in degrees and you can measure degrees with today's
tools, so, the problem with camber is only getting a jig that works on
multiple vehicles since you have to offset the measuring tool parallel to
the wheel but away from the tire sidewall bulge (sure, there are ways to do
it with a plumb bob but I'd just go for the camber jig for ease of use).

Caster is usually too hard to measure directly, and for this car, it's not
settable anyway. You can calculate it, but what good is the calculation
when you can't set it.

In the rear, this vehicle only has camber and nothing else. So, when most
people think "alignment" they're thinking a $100K machine which is
optimized for a totally different use model than a guy checking his
alignment at home where time and the ability to measure everything isn't
the issue.

All you need is camber and toe for the most part, which means you need a
camber jig and toe plates and as accurate an electronic level as you an
afford.

Anyway, I'm DIFFERENT (which means we are different).
You don't enjoy changing tires, I do.
You think it's dangerous to not go to a mechanic, I think they skip steps.
You may think I'm a troll but I'm not and I am DOING stuff when I ask
things (I don't ask idly).

I should mention the only auto mechanics class I took was in high school in
the sixties, where I was a star pupil and the teacher's pet simply because
he never had anyone in his class so interested in the details. He once was
amazed that I rewound a motorcycle alternator and horn solenoid in the same
week, and that I kept asking questions about fluids, asking why the
viscosity didn't really matter but the API number did, or what really
needed distilled water (the battery) but not the coolant (in reality, once
you look at water chemistry where we lived). I took sulfuric acid from the
chem lab in high school (in those days, you didn't get expelled for
breaking the rules) and refilled my own battery - it lasted about a month
or two, as I recall).

I'm DIFFERENT than most people you've met - so I'm an acquired taste.

What I ask for, in this newsgroup, is the expertise of all the people here,
most of which outweighs mine because I'm educated in totally different
things.

HINT: Ask me about bacteria or electrical engineering and you'll get far
more than you bargained for. :)

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 12:11:10 AM7/29/18

to

On 28 Jul 2018 20:27:03 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

> It lets you know if something is bent - and if it is you'll be
> chasing your tail for a LONG time trying to find out why the car won't
> run straight hands off - - - -

I completely understand.
The "assumption" is that it's like a doctor's physical, of sorts.

It's more preventative medicine than corrective in that if your car has
been in an accident, that's out of the scope of what I'm going to
implement.

The assumption is the car has not been in an accident and it has been fully
"aligned" at some point in the reasonable past where the history is known
to you.

Under those circumstances, checking the things you can adjust is what I'm
speaking about.

It's a philosophical thing, where if you have money to waste, go have a
blast getting an alignment every month. But if you want to be pragmatic,
then ensure the car is aligned properly, and then periodically check the
caster, camber and toe, oh, say, every month or three.

It's a probability thing.
Can the entropy be such that the entire frame will suddenly bend on you?
Yup. There's a one in a trillion trillion trillion chance that this will
happen. (this is how entropy works, by the way)

But we're talking normal probabilities here.
Not accidents.

It's a *big* distinction.

>
>Again, don't even get me started on AAMCO. We old men have too many stories
>of how we were screwed when we were young and innocent.
>

I heard the stories, so did some looking around when the trans went out on my '67 Skylark.
AAMCO wanted $700 - hell, I only paid $475 for the car.
Went to the used car dealer I bought it from and he told me what trans shop he used.
They rebuilt the trans for $125.

>I taught my kids that very many are crooks (AAMCO is the worst, IMHO).
>Sigh.

Just avoid the franchise operations. Still have to deal with finding a competent mechanic,
but when you do, you're set. Until they retire or die on you.

Scott Dorsey

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 11:53:45 AM7/29/18

to

Vic Smith <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:33:18 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder <arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>Then I paid Sears to do the alignment, and when I got home, I looked and
>>not a bolt was touched. I took it back to Sears and they tested it and
>>found out the guy didn't even do it. He said his charts only went back 10
>>years and so he didn't have the numbers. And yet they charged me. I as
>>livid, but in those days, I didn't scream bloody further. Nowadays I'd have
>>told them to give it to me for free or I would go to the prosecutor (or at
>>least the home office).
>
>Same thing happened to me at a Firestone shop. I bought a '66 F100 and it was pulling a
>little to the left. I dropped it off for new front tires and an alignment. When I picked
>it up from their parking lot, first thing I did was crawl under it. Same grunge on the tie
>rod ends. Went back in and asked the desk guy why they didn't do the alignment.
>He shouted to the mech and the mech shouted back. "We can't do twin I-beam."
>I had him refund the charge. Pretty close to your experience.

And this, in short, is why you go to an alignment shop with an alignment expert
instead of to the tire store.

You are lucky that they didn't do the alignment, because the tire store has
some high school kid who has been given basic directions to put the car up
on the machine and follow the directions the machine gives him. He really
doesn't know anything about the suspension geometry, but relies entirely on
the machine to do the job. He doesn't check anything for wear, he doesn't
check anything for damage or being bent, he just follows the machine.

If nothing is damaged, loose, bent, or worn, you drive away with the alignment
better than it was when you drove in. If that's not the case (and it likely
isn't, otherwise you wouldn't be getting an alignment anyway), then you drive
away with the alignment made worse.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 1:22:16 PM7/29/18

to

On 23 Jul 2018 16:42:53 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

> I didn't see any interest in my suggestion

At this point, I don't remember your "suggestion" ... but ... bearing in
mind very important facts:
1. I did the job so it's related to this newsgroup, and,
2. I have been posting to Usenet for decades, where
3. Cowardly bullies like Tekkie are a detriment to this newsgroup.

The facts are I clearly removed, and replaced that clutch, and I just as
clearly wrote the extremely detailed DIY (and am still working on improving
that DIY so as to give back to the team - which is because I'm purposefully
helpful and a great Usenet citizen), snapping almost a thousand pictures,
of each removal and replacement step and describing for the next person,
how to do what I did (with the purposefully helpful & timely advice from
many others here).

So it's eminently clear that I responded to everyone who had purposefully
helpful intent and am only now getting to responding to the worthless
trolls who wouldn't know a clutch plate from a dinner plate.

Given that
a. I actually did the job, and,
b. I am very smart and can handle complex details, and,
c. I didn't have time to shut the bullying cowardly trolls up,

*I'm only now getting to your worthless posts*.

If you feel that I didn't have an "interest" in your suggestion, then you
can rest assured, since I'm rather intelligent and logical, that I most
likely thought your suggestions were worthless and not even worth at
response at the time that I needed help.

If you feel otherwise, then you're welcome to make a technically on-topic
and technically valid post. I challenge you to do so, in fact as I do
believe that even you have some value to add to the technical topic.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 1:23:43 PM7/29/18

to

On 29 Jul 2018 17:22:14 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

> 3. Cowardly bullies like Tekkie are a detriment to this newsgroup.

OOops. Correction (since I care about my credibility)...

Cowardly bullies like Tekkie *and* Trader4, are a detriment to this
newsgroup.

Note: Wade Garrett is just an annoyance, like an annoying gnat.

Arlen Holder

to

I used one of those big Chilton multi-year/model manuals to change the timing belts on a Subaru. It was simple enough except they left out a step where you turn the crankshaft 360 degrees after installing one belt. This meant that one cam was 180 degrees out of phase with the other cam. It also meant that your engine wasn't going to start. That was a very bad mistake.

Vic Smith

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 4:12:41 PM7/29/18

to

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:24:01 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder <arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 29 Jul 2018 08:01:58 GMT, Vic Smith wrote:
>

>>
>> Just avoid the franchise operations. Still have to deal with finding a competent mechanic,
>> but when you do, you're set. Until they retire or die on you.
>

I'll amend that about franchise shops. Tire shops like Firestone, Just Tires, etc. have
good alignment equipment, or at least should have. My son worked for Just Tires for a few
years, and now works at an independent shop doing mainly heavy truck suspensions.
He talks to old mates at Just Tires, and sends me there when I need alignment work, which
is rare. So far they've done a fine job as far as I can tell.
I've had 4-5 exhaust systems replaced (family cars) at a local Meineke at fair prices.
But they screwed up a brake job - left off the e-brake lever on the rear drum.
It all depends on management and personnel. Just be aware of that, and that a competent
mech can point you to competent shops. This has always worked for me, when I can't do it
myself.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 4:13:31 PM7/29/18

to

On 07/29/2018 02:33 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> Quantum mechanics still drives me nuts because nothing in it is intuitive,
> which is another point -- which is that anyone who thinks they're intuitive
> - is wrong. :)

Quantum was the fourth semester as we worked our way through Resnick &
Halliday. (Resnick worked there so we damn well used his book). The TA's
chief claim to fame was playing 'Flight of the Bumblebee' on the
xylophone -- in a dark room with lighted batons. I submitted an essay
titled 'Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle versus Heidegger's Principle
Uncertainty'. Passed the course. It's understandable that some of the
original quantum guys got a little weird.

> That's another thing. We had labs, and in the labs we used caps, of course,
> but they never teach you PRACTICAL stuff, like the difference between
> tantalum and electrolytic, and pancake caps, and what happens if you stick
> a 10VDC electrolytic water tower into the electrical socket (that's fun if
> you haven't tried it).

One of my clients was Sprague Electric's Maine plant where they made
tantlums. They were a fun client with a severe case of NIH so I got to
design a Z80 motherboard and peripheral cards for process monitoring.
That was back when there were about 20 flavors of Z80 control system
schemes like the STD bus but they wanted their very own. They also like
FORTH so I got to use that. Ultimately FORTH got me some work on
aircraft fuel measurement and management systems but I was strictly
doing software by them. Logic is logic; TTL, relays, fluidics,
microcontrollers, whatever.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 4:47:49 PM7/29/18

to

On 07/29/2018 11:23 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> For example, in the bimmer, I can't count the number of silly things that
> go wrong (e.g., CCV in the emissions system), that just don't go wrong on
> the Japanese vehicles. Don't even get me started on the German "electrical
> system"....

I had an early Audi that was a lot of laughs. I was in upstate New
Hampshire headed for Canada when it stopped raining. I turned the wipers
off and they didn't. Fortunately I found a phone to call the dealership
and ask where the relay was. The alternative was to remove the arms but
that wasn't as easy as it sounds. Then there was the plug wires. At
around 15,000 miles that car wouldn't start. No warning, no rough idle,
just no start. I learned to keep spares in the trunk.

VW was also in the learning process of swapping ends from rear
engine/rear drive to front engine/front drive. That didn't go well.

Finally, there was the national 55 mph speed limit that got slapped on
us. The car wasn't geared to do 55 except as a momentary point on the
way to a reasonable cruising speed.

That was my last German car. Audi must have improved quite a bit.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 4:52:56 PM7/29/18

to

On 07/29/2018 01:47 AM, Xeno wrote:
> On 29/7/18 4:46 pm, rbowman wrote:
>> On 07/28/2018 09:01 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
>>> Do you think there would be a market for such a car-specific (completely
>>> unlike Hanes/Chilton/FSM) perfect no-step-missed DIY as I write?
>>
>> The problem is addressed on some forums. With digital cameras and the
>> ease of putting stuff on line quite a few people have done step by
>> step logs. Unfortunately they're model specific. The Toyota forum has
>> saved me a lot of pain. I've got the manual but I'm sure the replace
>> the radio page starts with 'remove dash trim'. Yeah, right. You start
>> down at the transmission hump with a plastic putty knife popping off
>> little plastic bits until you work your way up to the speedometer
>> housing.
>>
>> Bikes are getting just as bad. I had a driveway full of plastic
>> pieces, a gas tank, and other odd and ends before I could get to the
>> regulator to unplug the stator to replace it.
>>
>> Some days I dream of finding a 1965 VW in good shape.
>
> I would consider that dream a nightmare.
>

I might be one of the few members of my generation that never owned a
beetle, never rode in one for more than 5 miles, and never drove one
further than 50 yards. The design philosophy fascinated me though. You
could pretty much take a few apart, mix and match, and put them together
again. In an era where US manufacturers were doing their best to make
sure every model year was utterly incompatible with the previous, that
was something.

I still get irate at times. How many frigging oil filters that almost
but not quite the same does the world need? Those little plastic bits?

rbowman

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 4:55:39 PM7/29/18

to

On 07/29/2018 02:33 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:

Fortunately, Bentleys have never been on my menu. My fling with British
sports cars was enough. Damn Whitworth and all his descendants.

rbowman

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 5:01:40 PM7/29/18

to

On 07/29/2018 02:33 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:

> Once, decades ago, I was doing the pitman arm, idler arm, and tie rod ends
> for a Dodge Dart of the 70's vintage, where, it was winter so I had to ride
> my motorcycle in the snow to get the parts, and, they gave me the wrong
> tie-rod ends.

With age comes wisdom... One winter when the pickup was acting up I
bought a used Geo figuring I'd deal with it in the spring. The Geo
turned out to be a durable little ride. Its only problem was it was sort
of cactus green. I drove it down to Arizona and when I went hiking in
the desert I was careful to create a GPS waypoint. It could vanish
completely in a saguaro thicket.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 29, 2018, 11:52:32 PM7/29/18

to

On 29 Jul 2018 13:12:34 GMT, Vic Smith wrote:

> I'll amend that about franchise shops. Tire shops like Firestone, Just Tires, etc. have
> good alignment equipment, or at least should have. My son worked for Just Tires for a few
> years, and now works at an independent shop doing mainly heavy truck suspensions.
> He talks to old mates at Just Tires, and sends me there when I need alignment work, which
> is rare. So far they've done a fine job as far as I can tell.
> I've had 4-5 exhaust systems replaced (family cars) at a local Meineke at fair prices.
> But they screwed up a brake job - left off the e-brake lever on the rear drum.
> It all depends on management and personnel. Just be aware of that, and that a competent
> mech can point you to competent shops. This has always worked for me, when I can't do it
> myself.

Speaking of tires, a neighbor had a catastrophic flat today where she
called me to help but I was at the hospital getting stitches for my arm:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5538528tire.jpg>

I couldn't help her - so I gave her my wife's AAA card number where she
impersonated my wife and the tow operator changed the tire for her.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=962599720180729_174631.jpg>

The tow guy said the tire is in great shape treadwise, and he said the tire
is 3 years old based on the serial (3415) and when I asked her to read the
numbers, she said it's a Toyo Eclipse P205/65R15 92T (yes, I know what all
those numbers mean) with markings of CDE3415 and DOTN39L.

She's not the original owner but she has had the car for a year.

Do you know how to complain to the government that this tire should not
have blown out like that? I know she didn't abuse it, where it's on a
typical Japanese sedan but when you see that picture, you'll be amazed.

She said she was going about 80 and the tires were checked just last week
for air pressure, and she immediately pulled over to the side of the road
within ten seconds.

Have you ever filed a complaint with the government for a 3 year old tire?

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 30, 2018, 12:00:32 AM7/30/18

to

On 29 Jul 2018 13:56:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Fortunately, Bentleys have never been on my menu. My fling with British
> sports cars was enough. Damn Whitworth and all his descendants.

One good Internet DIY is better than the shop manuals, except for the
torque specs (IMHO).

Xeno

unread,

Jul 30, 2018, 12:36:50 AM7/30/18

to

Another one who had 3 or 4 completely different toolkits in the dark
ages. I had full sets of Whitworth, BS, AF and Metric spanners and
sockets for all the different types of cars and trucks I used to work on.

Xeno

unread,

Jul 30, 2018, 12:39:25 AM7/30/18

to

unread,

Jul 30, 2018, 10:32:17 AM7/30/18

to

On 30/7/18 11:57 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Arlen Holder <arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> <http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=962599720180729_174631.jpg>
>>
>> The tow guy said the tire is in great shape treadwise, and he said the tire
>> is 3 years old based on the serial (3415) and when I asked her to read the
>> numbers, she said it's a Toyo Eclipse P205/65R15 92T (yes, I know what all
>> those numbers mean) with markings of CDE3415 and DOTN39L.
>>
>> She's not the original owner but she has had the car for a year.
>>
>> Do you know how to complain to the government that this tire should not
>> have blown out like that? I know she didn't abuse it, where it's on a
>> typical Japanese sedan but when you see that picture, you'll be amazed.
>
> This is exactly how tires blow out when they are underinflated. You say that

Definitely! That tyre shows distinct sidewall degradation that didn't
happen overnight or in a week.

> she checked the pressure last week, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a nail
> or sidewall puncture causing the tire to lose pressure slowly.

unread,

Jul 30, 2018, 6:23:51 PM7/30/18

to

Arlen Holder <arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:
>On 30 Jul 2018 06:57:35 GMT, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> This is exactly how tires blow out when they are underinflated. You say that
>> she checked the pressure last week, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a nail
>> or sidewall puncture causing the tire to lose pressure slowly.
>
>Wow. I wasn't expecting someone to say "underinflated" especially since she
>told me she inflates them to 40psi even though the door sticker I had her
>read says 29 psi. So, if anything, she would have been overinflated.

Overinflation is just as bad, but I don't know how overinflated tires
fail because I have not really seen any of those. Underinflation is much
more common.

Overinflation also puts undue stress on the sidewall, but not in the same
way.

>> Tires are wear items. You replace them now and then, you check them often,
>> and sometimes they just fail. The government is not likely to be able to do
>> much about that.
>
>I have had many flats, but I've never seen a tire do that.
>
>The AAA guy said to her (according to her) that there must have been
>something wrong with the tire. He checked her spare before putting it on
>and he said it was good (where the spare would have been checked with the
>other tires last week and where I had repaired her spare with a patchplug
>about six months ago).

He's likely right. See any dry-rot cracks on the other tires? See any
sidewall damage anywhere?

>At that time (we can look up the date of that thread), three of her five
>tires were patched by me from the inside - but she confirmed this is not
>one of them (I write on the tire with grease pen when I repair them and she
>hated those markings because they were on the outside sidewall so it's
>confirmed I never touched this particular tire except to fill it with air).

So she's a person who is prone to running over nails frequently?

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 30, 2018, 7:34:23 PM7/30/18

to

On 30 Jul 2018 15:23:49 GMT, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Overinflation is just as bad, but I don't know how overinflated tires
> fail because I have not really seen any of those. Underinflation is much
> more common.

Here is a series of pictures of an inside patch-and-plug repair on that
same car (different tire but same model and date code I'm sure) in May of
this year, which I had posted to this newsgroup to ask if it was too close
to the sidewall.
https://u.cubeupload.com/ephXTU.jpg https://u.cubeupload.com/hL4S7k.jpg
https://u.cubeupload.com/dVRzSE.jpg https://u.cubeupload.com/QhfOze.jpg
https://u.cubeupload.com/QTSFM6.jpg https://u.cubeupload.com/QhfOze.jpg
https://u.cubeupload.com/Pf9S1J.jpg https://u.cubeupload.com/m7V4v8.jpg
https://u.cubeupload.com/f260b6.jpg https://u.cubeupload.com/QAXcRZ.jpg

(Yes, I'm detail oriented.)

A few reasons I know these tires were not underinflated in the past year is
that I check them periodically when the college kid is in town, and I
inflate to 40psi habitually for all my passenger tires.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5538528tire.jpg>

This tire above is the same car, and almost certainly the same brand (as
only the spare was a different model) but the tire that popped did NOT have
any repairs by me so I never touched it other than to inflate it to 40psi.
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6543956tireoncar.jpg>

The carcass says it can handle a given load (I don't remember the pounds
but she read it to me and it was something like 1400 and change per tire)
at 44psi, where she was at 40psi on a hot day at 80mph (yes, I know that
means the pressure went up about 10% or so).

There is almost zero chance this tire was underinflated for the last year,
but there's no way to know what it was prior to that as the tire is 3 years
old and she bought the car 1 year ago.

> Overinflation also puts undue stress on the sidewall, but not in the same
> way.

I typically recommend everyone I know use 40psi despite the door sticker,
but this door sticker, for the record, is 29psi.

> So she's a person who is prone to running over nails frequently?\

I don't know why most of you don't get as many flats as we do, but I repair
a nail-or-screw-based flat every few months it seems, although caveats
apply where it's not on a general schedule, of course, and I do it for
neighbors and I have 4 cars in use all the time, where it's part of my
equation as to why I mount and statically balance my own tires at home.

Here's a picture of one of the tires I repaired in 2016 for example that I
had posted to this newsgroup when I was looking for a good patch plug
supplier.
https://imgur.com/InL9A8y

Here are five more holed tires that I posted to this newsgroup back in
2017, where I "practiced" on these five, all of which were well beyond the
tread life.
https://u.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

Remember, it doesn't rain for 9 or 10 months of the year here so traction
is "better" the slicker the tread, but let's ignore the extreme tread wear
and concentrate on the fact that tires hole all the time when you look at
the size of this screw, which would have punctured a truck tire since it's
so long.
https://u.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg

This is another picture I posted, of that same tire, showing where it was
punctured by that long screw which is common in the flats that I see around
here.
https://u.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg

Anyway, you guys seem to have a LOT more luck with nails and screws than I
do, which is why I repair tires all the time, as I don't think I've ever
had a vehicle ever wear a set of tires to the wear bars before getting at
least half the tires punctured.

Your tires also last FOREVER compared to ours, which only last two years,
and maybe three at most, but this is very hilly very windy country where K
turns are normal every day, twice a day to get out of the garage, none of
which is kind to tires.

The main question here is what on earth causes a tire to catastrophically
fail like that? The real question for me is should I order 4 new tires,
given this thread is still fantastic (she lives elsewhere where it isn't
hilly and windy so she gets more than we do by way of wear).
https://u.cubeupload.com/9JuDSK.jpg

Arlen Holder

unread,

Aug 6, 2018, 9:33:21 PM8/6/18

to

Picked up one of these for the next time around!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9321889pilot_bushing_tool.jpg

Lisle 55600 Clutch Pilot Bushing Remover
"This Blind Hole Bushing Remover Uses Hydraulic Pressure to Quickly
Remove Brass and Bronze Pilot Bushings from 1/2" to 4/4" ID. Not for Use on
Steel Bearings."

I wonder why it wouldn't work for steel?