Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range
254 views
Skip to first unread message
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 8, 2016, 9:42:06 PM8/8/16
to
2013 Hyundai Sonata - Caster at low end of Spec Range:
For this generation of Sonatas(YF 2011 - 14) Caster is specified
as +4.4deg, + or - 0.5deg.
Mine: L = +3.8, R = +3.9
Question, since caster on my car is nearly dead equal, but
is barely at the low end of specified range, #1 how did it check
in that low, and #2 is there anything that can be repaired, bent,
or replaced to get it up into the middle of that range?
Thanks in advance. And yes, I know in *theory* caster and
camber cannot be adjusted on a unibody where they are
defined by locations of control arms and built in strut tower
angles. But is there any way to 'cheat' and add more caster
without throwing the other angles off?
For this generation of Sonatas(YF 2011 - 14) Caster is specified
as +4.4deg, + or - 0.5deg.
Mine: L = +3.8, R = +3.9
Question, since caster on my car is nearly dead equal, but
is barely at the low end of specified range, #1 how did it check
in that low, and #2 is there anything that can be repaired, bent,
or replaced to get it up into the middle of that range?
Thanks in advance. And yes, I know in *theory* caster and
camber cannot be adjusted on a unibody where they are
defined by locations of control arms and built in strut tower
angles. But is there any way to 'cheat' and add more caster
without throwing the other angles off?
.
Aug 8, 2016, 9:50:46 PM8/8/16
to
On 8/8/2016 8:42 PM, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> And yes, I know in *theory* caster and
> camber cannot be adjusted on a unibody where they are
> defined by locations of control arms and built in strut tower
> angles.
Camber IS adjustable.
> And yes, I know in *theory* caster and
> camber cannot be adjusted on a unibody where they are
> defined by locations of control arms and built in strut tower
> angles.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 8, 2016, 9:55:33 PM8/8/16
to
. you are correct:
On that generation Sonata, rear camber is adjustable. I already
had rear camber made less negative, from -1.4 to -0.8deg.
Now I'm trying to find out why my Sonata has barely the minimum
spec caster, and what if anything needs repair or replacement
to gain a half degree back.
On that generation Sonata, rear camber is adjustable. I already
had rear camber made less negative, from -1.4 to -0.8deg.
Now I'm trying to find out why my Sonata has barely the minimum
spec caster, and what if anything needs repair or replacement
to gain a half degree back.
Bill Vanek
Aug 8, 2016, 10:14:24 PM8/8/16
to
wear, and even another degree of caster will have almost no effect on
feel. It's a waste of time to even think about it.
Paul in Houston TX
Aug 9, 2016, 12:52:54 AM8/9/16
to
The tower holes could be elongated or eccentric bolts installed on
the lower control arms, or the arm retainers slotted.
$500 and up.
Everything that changes caster will also change camber and toe.
It will be back and forth adjusting for a couple of hours.
Add another $500.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 9, 2016, 9:54:11 AM8/9/16
to
Bill Vanek wrote: "Why would you want to bother with this? There is no
specified range. And of all the alignment parameters,
caster is the most important to me, and it sucks that
that particular spec is at the lower end. If it was
between 4.3-4.7 degrees positive, this thread would
not exist. :)
effect on tire wear, and even another degree of caster will have almost
no effect on feel. It's a waste of time to even think about it. "
Simply because my caster is at the bottom of the
no effect on feel. It's a waste of time to even think about it. "
specified range. And of all the alignment parameters,
caster is the most important to me, and it sucks that
that particular spec is at the lower end. If it was
between 4.3-4.7 degrees positive, this thread would
not exist. :)
Message has been deleted
dsi1
Aug 9, 2016, 3:48:02 PM8/9/16
to
The front end of my VW needs to have the suspension parts changed. My tires are wearing on the inside and outside edges. I sure wish I had your problem. :)
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 9, 2016, 7:49:28 PM8/9/16
to
dsi1:
Look up online "2011 Hyundai Sonata wandering" and you'll
understand why the concern. Although most of the issues
were resolved by the third model year of the YF body Sonata,
it is still good to havr alignment checked, especially on a
used one with 30,000 miles.
Another contributor to the wandering was the electric power
steering and what mode it was set in at the factory. Mine was
set to 'Soft'(maximum boost, minimum driver effort). I had my
dealer set it to 'Sport'(minimum boost, most driver effort needed
to steer car). In soft, even slight changes to the road angle, or
a mild cross wind, would wrest the wheel from drivers' hands!
It was reminiscent of the 70s 'one fingered' steering on
full size models.
Sport mode was a huge step in normalizing the handling/road
feel of my Sonata, but I figured finding a way to maximize
caster - within specs - would really ice the cake. :)
Look up online "2011 Hyundai Sonata wandering" and you'll
understand why the concern. Although most of the issues
were resolved by the third model year of the YF body Sonata,
it is still good to havr alignment checked, especially on a
used one with 30,000 miles.
Another contributor to the wandering was the electric power
steering and what mode it was set in at the factory. Mine was
set to 'Soft'(maximum boost, minimum driver effort). I had my
dealer set it to 'Sport'(minimum boost, most driver effort needed
to steer car). In soft, even slight changes to the road angle, or
a mild cross wind, would wrest the wheel from drivers' hands!
It was reminiscent of the 70s 'one fingered' steering on
full size models.
Sport mode was a huge step in normalizing the handling/road
feel of my Sonata, but I figured finding a way to maximize
caster - within specs - would really ice the cake. :)
dsi1
Aug 10, 2016, 6:01:12 PM8/10/16
to
Bill Vanek
Aug 10, 2016, 8:31:23 PM8/10/16
to
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
return to center are camber, caster, and kingpin inclination.
wrote:
car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
return to center are camber, caster, and kingpin inclination.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 10, 2016, 9:18:40 PM8/10/16
to
Bill Vanek wrote: "Changing the toe will help only if it's so far off right now that the
car is wandering back and forth. The only things that affect steering
return to center are camber, caster"
Here are my last specs from the dealer:
return to center are camber, caster"
*First sets of numbers are specs. "Mine" are what my car is
at as of time of reading by technician.
FRONT:
Camber: 0 to -1.0deg Mine: L= -.2deg R= -.8
Caster: -3.9 to -4.9deg Mine: L= -3.8 R= -3.9
Toe: -0.02 to +0.18deg Mine: L= +0.08 R= +0.03
REAR:
Camber: -0.5 to -1.5deg Mine(reduced from -1.5): L= -.9 R= -.7
Toe: -0.02 to +0.19deg Mine: L= +0.01 R= +0.45
Total Rear Toe: -0.03 to +0.37deg Mine: +0.46deg
Thrust: -0.22deg
See anything that pops your eyeballs?
Bill Vanek
Aug 10, 2016, 9:40:55 PM8/10/16
to
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
Lots of cross camber in front - could make it pull to the left, and
rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
wear.
If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience has been
that the recommended pressure is almost always the best.
wrote:
rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
wear.
If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience has been
that the recommended pressure is almost always the best.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 10, 2016, 10:08:01 PM8/10/16
to
Bill Vanek wrote: "On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
- show quoted text -
cross camber is greater than half a degree.
As far as rear toe goes: The way it is now is countering
*some* of the left pull due to slightly less positive left
caster and significantly less negative left front camber.
That's probably why the alignment tech himself told me
he "wouldn't touch it".
Here's the issue: Both Hyundai dealers say there's nothing
that can be done about that camber. The "camber kit" available
early on in this run of Sonata is no longer available, so they say,
and I should just "live with it".
I don't believe them!
"If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience"
We seem to agree on tire pressures. Hyundai's recommended
pressure is 33psi cold, all around. I keep it 35psi, as it firms up
the ride and handling a bit.
Vanek: This car is very 'busy' spec-wise: It has a lot of
counter-aligning going on: Negative rear thrust angle countering
the aforementioned caster and camber issues in the front.
It's like driving in a 'fog'.
What it really needs is a little more left-front negative camber,
and maybe a little less negative right-front camber. That is
actually more of an issue than the caster, now that you
pointed it out.
So my challenge is finding someone to go above and beyond,
even if there are just slightly bent parts up front causing it,
and nothing else.
wrote:
- show quoted text -
"Lots of cross camber in front - could make it pull to the left, and
rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
wear. "
Yeah, didn't think about that front camber! It's 'in spec', but
rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
wear. "
cross camber is greater than half a degree.
As far as rear toe goes: The way it is now is countering
*some* of the left pull due to slightly less positive left
caster and significantly less negative left front camber.
That's probably why the alignment tech himself told me
he "wouldn't touch it".
Here's the issue: Both Hyundai dealers say there's nothing
that can be done about that camber. The "camber kit" available
early on in this run of Sonata is no longer available, so they say,
and I should just "live with it".
I don't believe them!
"If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience"
that the recommended pressure is almost always the best. "
Unsure?? LOL It is definitely a two-hand car, at 30 or 60mph.
We seem to agree on tire pressures. Hyundai's recommended
pressure is 33psi cold, all around. I keep it 35psi, as it firms up
the ride and handling a bit.
Vanek: This car is very 'busy' spec-wise: It has a lot of
counter-aligning going on: Negative rear thrust angle countering
the aforementioned caster and camber issues in the front.
It's like driving in a 'fog'.
What it really needs is a little more left-front negative camber,
and maybe a little less negative right-front camber. That is
actually more of an issue than the caster, now that you
pointed it out.
So my challenge is finding someone to go above and beyond,
even if there are just slightly bent parts up front causing it,
and nothing else.
Bill Vanek
Aug 10, 2016, 10:53:42 PM8/10/16
to
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:07:56 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
>Bill Vanek wrote: "On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
>wrote:
>- show quoted text -
>"Lots of cross camber in front - could make it pull to the left, and
>rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
>wear. "
>
>Yeah, didn't think about that front camber! It's 'in spec', but
>cross camber is greater than half a degree.
>
>As far as rear toe goes: The way it is now is countering
>*some* of the left pull due to slightly less positive left
>caster and significantly less negative left front camber.
>That's probably why the alignment tech himself told me
>he "wouldn't touch it".
The rear end will not make the car pull. The thrust angle can make the
car move to one side, but that's not pull, it's simply where the car
is pointed. It's trivial to correct the rear toe, and that should
correct the thrust angle. Rear caster will do nothing, but rear camber
& toe will cause those tires to wear.
>Here's the issue: Both Hyundai dealers say there's nothing
>that can be done about that camber. The "camber kit" available
>early on in this run of Sonata is no longer available, so they say,
>and I should just "live with it".
>I don't believe them!
I don't think you should believe them. It's also possible that you
could shift the engine cradle, or whatever is used for the suspension
support, a little bit. Was the car ever in a collision? If not, there
must be a way to adjust the camber, at least with aftermarket parts.
>"If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
>try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
>It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience"
>that the recommended pressure is almost always the best. "
>
>Unsure?? LOL It is definitely a two-hand car, at 30 or 60mph.
Are your tires overinflated, or right at the recommended pressure for
the installed tires?
>We seem to agree on tire pressures. Hyundai's recommended
>pressure is 33psi cold, all around. I keep it 35psi, as it firms up
>the ride and handling a bit.
But do you have the original spec'd tires on the car? Are they good
tires? Tires can have a serious impact on road feel.
>Vanek: This car is very 'busy' spec-wise: It has a lot of
>counter-aligning going on: Negative rear thrust angle countering
>the aforementioned caster and camber issues in the front.
>It's like driving in a 'fog'.
>
>
>What it really needs is a little more left-front negative camber,
>and maybe a little less negative right-front camber. That is
>actually more of an issue than the caster, now that you
>pointed it out.
>
>
>So my challenge is finding someone to go above and beyond,
>even if there are just slightly bent parts up front causing it,
>and nothing else.
If you don't live in a big city area, you might have a problem finding
someone. Are there any racing shops, specialty shops, reputable tire
shops? I have to admit that even in bigger cities, it can be a
challenge finding someone. All you can do is drive around, talk to
different people, and hope to find someone who sounds like he knows
what he's talking about. For instance, if he tells you that toe can
make it pull to one side, or caster causes tire wear, he's not that
someone. And there are other commonly ignored specs that can help
point to bent parts, like toe-on-turns, and kingpin inclination.
wrote:
>Bill Vanek wrote: "On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 18:18:34 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
>wrote:
>- show quoted text -
>"Lots of cross camber in front - could make it pull to the left, and
>rear toe is out of spec. It's not much, but will contribute to tire
>wear. "
>
>Yeah, didn't think about that front camber! It's 'in spec', but
>cross camber is greater than half a degree.
>
>As far as rear toe goes: The way it is now is countering
>*some* of the left pull due to slightly less positive left
>caster and significantly less negative left front camber.
>That's probably why the alignment tech himself told me
>he "wouldn't touch it".
car move to one side, but that's not pull, it's simply where the car
is pointed. It's trivial to correct the rear toe, and that should
correct the thrust angle. Rear caster will do nothing, but rear camber
& toe will cause those tires to wear.
>Here's the issue: Both Hyundai dealers say there's nothing
>that can be done about that camber. The "camber kit" available
>early on in this run of Sonata is no longer available, so they say,
>and I should just "live with it".
>I don't believe them!
could shift the engine cradle, or whatever is used for the suspension
support, a little bit. Was the car ever in a collision? If not, there
must be a way to adjust the camber, at least with aftermarket parts.
>"If the car simply feels a little "unsure" as far as straight lines go,
>try fiddling with the tire pressure. Try an increase, try a decrease.
>It can sometimes make a substantial difference. My experience"
>that the recommended pressure is almost always the best. "
>
>Unsure?? LOL It is definitely a two-hand car, at 30 or 60mph.
the installed tires?
>We seem to agree on tire pressures. Hyundai's recommended
>pressure is 33psi cold, all around. I keep it 35psi, as it firms up
>the ride and handling a bit.
tires? Tires can have a serious impact on road feel.
>Vanek: This car is very 'busy' spec-wise: It has a lot of
>counter-aligning going on: Negative rear thrust angle countering
>the aforementioned caster and camber issues in the front.
>It's like driving in a 'fog'.
>
>
>What it really needs is a little more left-front negative camber,
>and maybe a little less negative right-front camber. That is
>actually more of an issue than the caster, now that you
>pointed it out.
>
>
>So my challenge is finding someone to go above and beyond,
>even if there are just slightly bent parts up front causing it,
>and nothing else.
someone. Are there any racing shops, specialty shops, reputable tire
shops? I have to admit that even in bigger cities, it can be a
challenge finding someone. All you can do is drive around, talk to
different people, and hope to find someone who sounds like he knows
what he's talking about. For instance, if he tells you that toe can
make it pull to one side, or caster causes tire wear, he's not that
someone. And there are other commonly ignored specs that can help
point to bent parts, like toe-on-turns, and kingpin inclination.
dsi1
Aug 10, 2016, 10:55:52 PM8/10/16
to
On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 2:31:23 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
I believe that the OP is experiencing wandering back and forth.
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:01:08 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
Bill Vanek
Aug 10, 2016, 11:06:51 PM8/10/16
to
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
He is, but in a subsequent post we can see that the toe is okay. He
does have a thrust angle issue - it's non-zero, but I don't know how
far off is too far off.
wrote:
does have a thrust angle issue - it's non-zero, but I don't know how
far off is too far off.
dsi1
Aug 10, 2016, 11:21:35 PM8/10/16
to
On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 5:06:51 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
If it wanders, doesn't that mean that the toe is not OK? You have to get an experienced alignment guy to adjust the toe-in based on the problem. The toe-in might not be to spec. If this is a common problem with these cars, then you'll have to go out of spec. Well that's my opinion anyway. If you're saying that he has to get the rear end squared away first well, yes, of course.
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
Bill Vanek
Aug 11, 2016, 12:17:20 AM8/11/16
to
On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:21:33 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi...@yahoo.com>
Not if it measures okay. Crappy tires, road surface, loose/worn parts
- including in the rear, probably other things I'm forgetting, those
will cause it. Also, it it's the toe, the car will tend to jump around
side to side, and in small amounts, as opposed to just slowly drifting
back and forth.
- including in the rear, probably other things I'm forgetting, those
will cause it. Also, it it's the toe, the car will tend to jump around
side to side, and in small amounts, as opposed to just slowly drifting
back and forth.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 6:55:12 AM8/11/16
to
Bill Vanek, dsi1:
Thank you for all of your well-thought out
insights!
Bill: The wander is gradual, over time, and
having both hands on the wheel at all times
seems to minimize it, but it is a tiring way to
have to drive.
The elephant in the room seems to be that
front cross camber, which my alignment
sheet seems to indicate equals negative 0.5.
I always thought the difference betwen -0.8
and -02. is 0.6. That is enough for concern,
and it seems correcting that alone would solve
my problem.
The excessive rear toe could be corrected
at some point in the future.
I actually prefer a *gradual* pull(or point) to
the right, for obvious safety reasons, and
that is what would happen once that front
neg camber is closer to equal. As it is now,
changes in local road crown and overall
road angle are producing gradual wander
either way, at local speeds and highway
speed. I read somewhere about 'camber
thrust' - and I believe that is what my front
cross camber is contributing to.
I just need to find someone who is willing
to do *whatever* it takes to fix it - replace
parts, slot something, whatever!
I have not made my first payment on this
car yet, and will return it if this issue
cannot be solved.
Thank you for all of your well-thought out
insights!
Bill: The wander is gradual, over time, and
having both hands on the wheel at all times
seems to minimize it, but it is a tiring way to
have to drive.
The elephant in the room seems to be that
front cross camber, which my alignment
sheet seems to indicate equals negative 0.5.
I always thought the difference betwen -0.8
and -02. is 0.6. That is enough for concern,
and it seems correcting that alone would solve
my problem.
The excessive rear toe could be corrected
at some point in the future.
I actually prefer a *gradual* pull(or point) to
the right, for obvious safety reasons, and
that is what would happen once that front
neg camber is closer to equal. As it is now,
changes in local road crown and overall
road angle are producing gradual wander
either way, at local speeds and highway
speed. I read somewhere about 'camber
thrust' - and I believe that is what my front
cross camber is contributing to.
I just need to find someone who is willing
to do *whatever* it takes to fix it - replace
parts, slot something, whatever!
I have not made my first payment on this
car yet, and will return it if this issue
cannot be solved.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 7:20:21 AM8/11/16
to
Bill Vanek:
Tires on car all match original size, load, and
speed ratings on B-pillar decal.
I'm running them at just 2psi over spec, which
should not be a big deal, compared to some
of my friends cars, which differ 5-10psi from
one corner to the next, LOL.
The rears are moderately worn Khumo Solus
KH's - what Hyundai and Kia seem to put
on all of their cars at factory. The fronts are
newer Nexens, an upgrade available at all
Hyundai & Kia dealers for Sonata and the
Optima.
I definitely plan to replace them before this
winter with higher consumer-rated Continentals.
However: I have never, ever, felt a handling
improvement from changing tires on any car
I've owned. Alignment, and proper tire
pressures have always been the biggest
influence for me.
dsi1
Aug 11, 2016, 12:53:20 PM8/11/16
to
On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 6:17:20 PM UTC-10, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:21:33 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
I should have known that adjusting the toe-in is too simple a solution for this group. That's the breaks. :)
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:21:33 -0700 (PDT), dsi1 <dsi1yahoo.com>
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 1:59:43 PM8/11/16
to
dsi1:
The only toe adjustment with directional
consequences is rear. Front is a tire
wear matter, and steering wheel
angle at straight ahead.
The only toe adjustment with directional
consequences is rear. Front is a tire
wear matter, and steering wheel
angle at straight ahead.
Bill Vanek
Aug 11, 2016, 2:45:10 PM8/11/16
to
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 03:55:08 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
If it always drifts off in the same direction, in your case to the
left, try fixing the camber. I saw this online:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sku/Moog/Camber_and_Alignment_Kit/MOK928.html
If it's drifting to the right, try swapping the front tires side to
side.
If it drifts only some of the time, remember that the road itself can
cause this, and BTW, increasing the caster would make that problem
worse.
And there is no point at all in not correcting the rear toe. It's a
trivial adjustment.
wrote:
left, try fixing the camber. I saw this online:
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sku/Moog/Camber_and_Alignment_Kit/MOK928.html
If it's drifting to the right, try swapping the front tires side to
side.
If it drifts only some of the time, remember that the road itself can
cause this, and BTW, increasing the caster would make that problem
worse.
And there is no point at all in not correcting the rear toe. It's a
trivial adjustment.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 2:54:04 PM8/11/16
to
Thanks Bill:
At least we've narrowed it down. :)
I showed those kits to both dealers and they said all they are is
a pile of bolts and washers, that 'additional hardware' is
needed to adjust the front camber.
And my local body shops said they won't touch the
front camber without a 'kit'. The concensus here
is that neither the dealers nor the outside body
places know exactly what the F- is needed to
adjust front camber on these Sonatas(2011-14).
At least we've narrowed it down. :)
I showed those kits to both dealers and they said all they are is
a pile of bolts and washers, that 'additional hardware' is
needed to adjust the front camber.
And my local body shops said they won't touch the
front camber without a 'kit'. The concensus here
is that neither the dealers nor the outside body
places know exactly what the F- is needed to
adjust front camber on these Sonatas(2011-14).
Message has been deleted
Bill Vanek
Aug 11, 2016, 4:10:48 PM8/11/16
to
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:54:02 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
Well, I finally looked at a picture of your front suspension, and I
see that someone would have to use a grinder and elongate one of the
strut bolt holes. That's not necessarily a big deal, but I guess a lot
of techs would be reluctant to do that. Because of that, I would take
the easiest path, and first try to swap the front tires with each
other. You can also try shifting the engine cradle, but I doubt that
would do much.
Does it always drift to the left? And how far does the car travel
before it leaves the lane?
wrote:
see that someone would have to use a grinder and elongate one of the
strut bolt holes. That's not necessarily a big deal, but I guess a lot
of techs would be reluctant to do that. Because of that, I would take
the easiest path, and first try to swap the front tires with each
other. You can also try shifting the engine cradle, but I doubt that
would do much.
Does it always drift to the left? And how far does the car travel
before it leaves the lane?
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 5:54:34 PM8/11/16
to
Bill Vanek wrote: "it always drift to the left? And how far does the car travel
before it leaves the lane? "
Drift: 70% left / 30% right. Also, it is slightly easier to
steer left than to steer right.
Conditions: Drift is dependent on crown/overall angle
of roadway.
Could be one eighth to one quarter mile before drifting
across dotted line on a highway, at 60-65mph.
If highway or local street is reasonably and consistently
crowned, Sonata will go straight or slightly to the right.
As soon as the road flattens out, it will slowly drift
left, toward the dotted white or double yellow.
I would really rather do the 'kit thang' as far as reducing
front cross-camber is concerned, rather than the surgery
you suggested. SOMEBODY out in Hyundai World must
know what that front camber bolt kit consisted of, and
could explain it to me and see if it still exists somewhere
on planet Earth. :s
Bill Vanek
Aug 11, 2016, 7:09:28 PM8/11/16
to
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 14:54:31 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
>Bill Vanek wrote: "it always drift to the left? And how far does the car travel
>before it leaves the lane? "
>
>
>Drift: 70% left / 30% right. Also, it is slightly easier to
>steer left than to steer right.
>
>Conditions: Drift is dependent on crown/overall angle
>of roadway.
Well that's the end of it right there. There is nothing at all you can
do about that, and as I said in another post, increasing caster will
make that worse. Another influence is the width of the tires. The
wider they are, the more the car will react to the road. If you are
comparing this car to another one, it's pointless unless the cars are
identical.
>Could be one eighth to one quarter mile before drifting
>across dotted line on a highway, at 60-65mph.
That's not unusual.
>If highway or local street is reasonably and consistently
>crowned, Sonata will go straight or slightly to the right.
>As soon as the road flattens out, it will slowly drift
>left, toward the dotted white or double yellow.
But how do you know that it's "flat"? Crowned is one thing, but the
road surface is not necessarily level, and that's impossible to
determine visually.
>I would really rather do the 'kit thang' as far as reducing
>front cross-camber is concerned, rather than the surgery
>you suggested. SOMEBODY out in Hyundai World must
>know what that front camber bolt kit consisted of, and
>could explain it to me and see if it still exists somewhere
>on planet Earth. :s
You can't use a kit without elongating the holes. There might be ball
joints that will allow a camber/caster adjustment, though.
To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with the car. But
if on the exact same stretch of road, in the same lane, it sometimes
goes left, and sometimes right, that's something else entirely, but I
don't think that's the case after reading this post.
wrote:
>
>Bill Vanek wrote: "it always drift to the left? And how far does the car travel
>before it leaves the lane? "
>
>
>Drift: 70% left / 30% right. Also, it is slightly easier to
>steer left than to steer right.
>
>Conditions: Drift is dependent on crown/overall angle
>of roadway.
do about that, and as I said in another post, increasing caster will
make that worse. Another influence is the width of the tires. The
wider they are, the more the car will react to the road. If you are
comparing this car to another one, it's pointless unless the cars are
identical.
>Could be one eighth to one quarter mile before drifting
>across dotted line on a highway, at 60-65mph.
>If highway or local street is reasonably and consistently
>crowned, Sonata will go straight or slightly to the right.
>As soon as the road flattens out, it will slowly drift
>left, toward the dotted white or double yellow.
road surface is not necessarily level, and that's impossible to
determine visually.
>I would really rather do the 'kit thang' as far as reducing
>front cross-camber is concerned, rather than the surgery
>you suggested. SOMEBODY out in Hyundai World must
>know what that front camber bolt kit consisted of, and
>could explain it to me and see if it still exists somewhere
>on planet Earth. :s
joints that will allow a camber/caster adjustment, though.
To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with the car. But
if on the exact same stretch of road, in the same lane, it sometimes
goes left, and sometimes right, that's something else entirely, but I
don't think that's the case after reading this post.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 7:31:05 PM8/11/16
to
Bill Vanek wrote: "You can't use a kit without elongating the holes. There might be ball
joints that will allow a camber/caster adjustment, though. "
Not the case with Sonata YF(2011-14) series: A camber kit was required
and was provided for front camber adj. It was analagous to a key that
unlocked a safe or whatever. Some parts were bolted on to that part
of the suspension that allowed for camber adjustment, and the adjustment
was made. No drilling, no guessing.
What remains unknown is which years of the YF series was the kit provided
for. A check of my VIN by one of the dealer parts depts showed no kit
available for my car. So it looks like some surgery might be necessary to
equalize that front neg. camber and reduce cross-camber maybe to 0.2 or
.3 degrees.
The local body shops said they are "adamantly" reluctant to do this on a
recent car like my Sonata until all potentially worn/loose/or bent parts are
diagnosed. I bought the car at 29,900 miles, and it now has about
30,500, still relatively new, and I want my investment to be something
I want to jump in and drive every day to work, the supermarket, or
wherever. :)
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 8:07:31 PM8/11/16
to
The discussion has moved away from caster. At least that
is equal left to right - less than 1/10th degree cross
caster.
is equal left to right - less than 1/10th degree cross
caster.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 8:34:29 PM8/11/16
to
Another option might be to 'minus-size' my tires, although this
might prove costly with regards to replacement rims. You
mentioned that wider tires are more responsive to changes in
road angle.
Replace the current 215/55-R17 V-rated
with 205/60-R16 V-rated.
Or should I chase the front cross-camber issue
first?
might prove costly with regards to replacement rims. You
mentioned that wider tires are more responsive to changes in
road angle.
Replace the current 215/55-R17 V-rated
with 205/60-R16 V-rated.
Or should I chase the front cross-camber issue
first?
Bill Vanek
Aug 11, 2016, 9:30:06 PM8/11/16
to
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 17:34:27 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
I really don't know what to tell you now. I wouldn't bother unless the
car is consistently pulling to the left, but it's up to you to decide
on the meaning of "consistently". But even if it is, the very first
thing I would do, because it's the cheapest thing, is swap those front
tires side to side. I would do that first, but I though you also
mentioned that there are different tires front and rear, so after
doing the side to side swap, I would try front to rear. The rears
might feel different on the front.
wrote:
car is consistently pulling to the left, but it's up to you to decide
on the meaning of "consistently". But even if it is, the very first
thing I would do, because it's the cheapest thing, is swap those front
tires side to side. I would do that first, but I though you also
mentioned that there are different tires front and rear, so after
doing the side to side swap, I would try front to rear. The rears
might feel different on the front.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 11, 2016, 9:55:03 PM8/11/16
to
Bill Vanek: "I really don't know what to tell you now. I wouldn't bother unless the car is consistently pulling
the left. I will try to swap the front tires and drive that for
one week. The Kumhos in back are so worn that swapping
them to the front may not make a difference. They're so
poorly rated on Tire rack: Unacceptable in snow and ice
and fair to good for all other qualities. The front Nexens
have no ratings on tire rack - weird. It's not even a
question of replacing both front Nexens and and rear
Kumhos - neither tire will see a flake of snow If I have any
say in it. The two Continental models I'm thinking about
blow them away on all qualities - from dry to snow, to
handling to noise. My wife has had 4 winters of bliss
with her Conti ProContacts, and the PureContacts
are even slightly higher rated by consumers.
But - my instinct tells me *something* should be done about the
front excess cross-camber. The effect of leaving that alone
will be felt regardless of how cheap or expensive tires, however
poorly or highly rated, are put on the car.
to the left, but it's up to you to decide on the meaning of "consistently"
All I'm saying is when it *does* drift it does so *mostly* to
the left. I will try to swap the front tires and drive that for
one week. The Kumhos in back are so worn that swapping
them to the front may not make a difference. They're so
poorly rated on Tire rack: Unacceptable in snow and ice
and fair to good for all other qualities. The front Nexens
have no ratings on tire rack - weird. It's not even a
question of replacing both front Nexens and and rear
Kumhos - neither tire will see a flake of snow If I have any
say in it. The two Continental models I'm thinking about
blow them away on all qualities - from dry to snow, to
handling to noise. My wife has had 4 winters of bliss
with her Conti ProContacts, and the PureContacts
are even slightly higher rated by consumers.
But - my instinct tells me *something* should be done about the
front excess cross-camber. The effect of leaving that alone
will be felt regardless of how cheap or expensive tires, however
poorly or highly rated, are put on the car.
Bill Vanek
Aug 11, 2016, 11:32:40 PM8/11/16
to
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 18:55:01 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
Why did they sell you a car with badly worn tires? Can't you insist on
new ones as part of the deal, or at least a swap with another car on
the lot? Or was this not a Hyundai dealer?
wrote:
new ones as part of the deal, or at least a swap with another car on
the lot? Or was this not a Hyundai dealer?
Steve W.
Aug 12, 2016, 12:58:46 AM8/12/16
to
4 tires to get the same size and tread on all 4 corners. Mixed brands,
tire compounds and sizes (even if they have the same numbers they can
still be different sizes depending on the way the company actually
measures them) can cause some strange handling quirks. Now drive it a
bit and see if it has improved.
Next take it to a couple different shops for alignment checks and
compare the numbers. With 4 identical tires inflated to the door sticker
the numbers from both places should be close to identical.
Next decide what you want to do. With the numbers you posted you need to
get it to a shop to adjust the both ends back to spec.
Find a shop and tell them that is what YOU the paying customer wants.
--
Steve W.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 12, 2016, 5:55:48 AM8/12/16
to
Steve W wrote: - show quoted text -
"First thing I would do is check all the rims for issues and replace all
4 tires to get the same size and tread on all 4 corners. Mixed brands,
tire compounds and sizes (even if they have the same numbers they can
still be different sizes depending on the way the company actually
measures them) can cause some strange handling quirks. Now drive it a
bit and see if it has improved. "
Good point. Due to my budget, I will probably
4 tires to get the same size and tread on all 4 corners. Mixed brands,
tire compounds and sizes (even if they have the same numbers they can
still be different sizes depending on the way the company actually
measures them) can cause some strange handling quirks. Now drive it a
bit and see if it has improved. "
have four identical tires on the car by October.
"Next take it to a couple different shops for alignment checks and
compare the numbers. With 4 identical tires inflated to the door sticker
the numbers from both places should be close to identical. "
their equipt was recently calibrated. I have a
garage nearby that has done good alignments
for me in the past. Perhaps they're next - after
I get some updated rubber on the car.
"Next decide what you want to do. With the numbers you posted you need to
get it to a shop to adjust the both ends back to spec. "
recently calibrated alignment gear) says he
drove the car after checking it, on highway and
local roads, and says even with those numbers
he doesn't want to change a thing, says it drives
"beautifully". But he isn't the one driving it
daily, and apparently doesn't grasp the concepts
of cross-camber or total toe.
"Find a shop and tell them that is what YOU the paying
customer wants.
--
Steve W. "
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 12, 2016, 6:04:10 AM8/12/16
to
Bill Vanek wrote:
- show quoted text -
- show quoted text -
"Why did they sell you a car with badly worn tires? Can't you insist on
new ones as part of the deal, or at least a swap with another car on
the lot? Or was this not a Hyundai dealer? "
Guess I was just in a hurry to get the car I
new ones as part of the deal, or at least a swap with another car on
the lot? Or was this not a Hyundai dealer? "
wanted. Enterprise car sales. Supposed to
have a "109 Point" inspection of all cars they
acquire for resale.
The Sonata I drove exhibited none of the
characteristics of the one I actually bought,
but that one lacked the sunroof I wanted.
Guess you can't have it all!
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 12, 2016, 6:44:19 AM8/12/16
to
Bill:
Test drove, that is.
Test drove, that is.
Bill Vanek
Aug 12, 2016, 4:13:40 PM8/12/16
to
On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 03:04:00 -0700 (PDT), thekma...@gmail.com
wrote:
Did you ask if you could swap tires with the one you liked? Enterprise
should have no objection to that, or swapping with another car. If
not, then Steve W.'s advice is to get new and high quality tires is
good advice.
wrote:
should have no objection to that, or swapping with another car. If
not, then Steve W.'s advice is to get new and high quality tires is
good advice.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 12, 2016, 4:23:50 PM8/12/16
to
On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 4:13:40 PM UTC-4, Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 03:04:00 -0700 (PDT),l.com
____________
I bought this car about 5 weeks ago. I think
I'm beyond that point, and it's taking forever
for my seller to locate me an owners manual.
Like I said before, a pair of new tires on one
axle by the end of September, and another pair
of the same new tires on the other by end of
October.
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 03:04:00 -0700 (PDT),l.com
I bought this car about 5 weeks ago. I think
I'm beyond that point, and it's taking forever
for my seller to locate me an owners manual.
Like I said before, a pair of new tires on one
axle by the end of September, and another pair
of the same new tires on the other by end of
October.
Steve W.
Aug 12, 2016, 5:13:01 PM8/12/16
to
thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I bought this car about 5 weeks ago. I think
> I'm beyond that point, and it's taking forever
> for my seller to locate me an owners manual.
>
Owners Manual:
>
> I bought this car about 5 weeks ago. I think
> I'm beyond that point, and it's taking forever
> for my seller to locate me an owners manual.
>
http://cdn.dealereprocess.com/cdn/servicemanuals/hyundai/2013-sonata.pdf
>
> Like I said before, a pair of new tires on one
> axle by the end of September, and another pair
> of the same new tires on the other by end of
> October.
Steve W.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 12, 2016, 6:50:46 PM8/12/16
to
Thanks Steve W.
Although, nothing beats a hard copy. :)
Although, nothing beats a hard copy. :)
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 14, 2016, 8:01:38 PM8/14/16
to
I am also considering minus- or downsizing my wheels and tires - reducing width and rim diameter but taller sidewalls to maintain speedometer and stability control.
I read numerous articles and spoke to other driving enthusiasts that wider, lower profile tires wrapped around larger diameter rims are more sensitive to steering inputs as well as road imperfections. Exactly the opposite of what I want.
So it might just improve straight ahead feel to go 'minus-one' - from 17" to narrower 16" wheels and get higher profile tires to maintain the aforemention speedo and safety items. Will also be helpful when crunching through snow or ice.
Better to err on side of a higher indicated speed(1-2mph) than the other way.
I read numerous articles and spoke to other driving enthusiasts that wider, lower profile tires wrapped around larger diameter rims are more sensitive to steering inputs as well as road imperfections. Exactly the opposite of what I want.
So it might just improve straight ahead feel to go 'minus-one' - from 17" to narrower 16" wheels and get higher profile tires to maintain the aforemention speedo and safety items. Will also be helpful when crunching through snow or ice.
Better to err on side of a higher indicated speed(1-2mph) than the other way.
thekma...@gmail.com
Aug 18, 2016, 9:40:45 AM8/18/16
to
Update on "Camber Kit" Search for my YF(2013) Sonata:
A rep from JC Whitney, which has more thorough
research methods than the average consumer,
said yesterday he would triy to find the OE(orig.
equipment) # for the additional $200 hardware
that the dealers apparently require to adjust front
camber on Hyundai Sonatas 2011-14.
So far 24 hours no news, so it seems as though
neither Hyundai itself nor the dealers want to
help customers with camber pull on model years
later than 2012 of this generation.
And all the best local body shops can do is
rack up the car, laser it for square, and throw
parts at it, starting with spindle and control
arm(s).
Guess I am on my own with this excess cross-
camber issue. New tires will help my traction,
will be quieter, and may enhance steering
response, but they will not fix a front cross camber
of 0.6deg.
A rep from JC Whitney, which has more thorough
research methods than the average consumer,
said yesterday he would triy to find the OE(orig.
equipment) # for the additional $200 hardware
that the dealers apparently require to adjust front
camber on Hyundai Sonatas 2011-14.
So far 24 hours no news, so it seems as though
neither Hyundai itself nor the dealers want to
help customers with camber pull on model years
later than 2012 of this generation.
And all the best local body shops can do is
rack up the car, laser it for square, and throw
parts at it, starting with spindle and control
arm(s).
Guess I am on my own with this excess cross-
camber issue. New tires will help my traction,
will be quieter, and may enhance steering
response, but they will not fix a front cross camber
of 0.6deg.
Xeno
Oct 7, 2018, 8:25:04 AM10/7/18
to
On 9/8/16 11:51 am, . wrote:
> On 8/8/2016 8:42 PM, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
>> And yes, I know in *theory* caster and
>> camber cannot be adjusted on a unibody where they are
>> defined by locations of control arms and built in strut tower
>> angles.
>
> Camber IS adjustable.
Anything is *adjustable*.
It just depends on how much you want to spend, dollars and/or time.
--
Xeno
Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
> On 8/8/2016 8:42 PM, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
>> And yes, I know in *theory* caster and
>> camber cannot be adjusted on a unibody where they are
>> defined by locations of control arms and built in strut tower
>> angles.
>
> Camber IS adjustable.
Anything is *adjustable*.
It just depends on how much you want to spend, dollars and/or time.
--
Xeno
Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)
0 new messages