Are my business assumptions correct?

[micky]

Are my business assumptions correct?

I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
installed.

For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.

Is this true?

Is there a difference if the shop's owner has a reputation for being
honest?

Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job and skip the
profit they would have made on the parts?

If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be irked
by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even, I would be
tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake. Or to skip
almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards, or putting the
paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Depends on the shop. Is it one you've used before and know the owner?
If so, good chance you can just tell him you wanted to put them in
yourself and could not and need his help. An honest shop will charge
you a fair rate for labor.

[Scott Dorsey]

micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>
>I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
>install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
>if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
>probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
>the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.

What makes you think the oxygen sensors have anything to do with your
problem? If you're getting errors saying that sensors are out of range,
it might well be because they are accurately measuring an exhaust that
is out of range. Especially if you're seeing more than one.

>For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
>I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
>installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
>parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
>that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
>parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.
>
>Is this true?

If you take O2 sensors to a shop and tell them to replace them, they will
replace them. Depending on how they are feeling that day and if they like
you, you may get a PIA charge for bringing in your own parts and being a
pain in the ass.

This means that if your problem is not bad sensors that you have just
wasted a lot of money, both in the parts you bought unnecessarily and in
the labour you paid them to do unnecessary work.

Replacing the sensors could be trivial or it could be a major pain in
the neck depending on how rusty things are and how well-kept things are.
If the last person that changed the sensors used anti-seize, it will
greatly reduce the work needed.

But before I'd go swapping parts at random, I'd make sure that I knew
what was actually wrong. A shop that is truly honest is likely to
tell you they won't do any work without spending time on a proper diagnosis
first.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Tekkie©]

On Fri, 02 Apr 2021 14:25:42 -0400, micky posted for all of us to digest...

Depends on the shop. They make a small profit on parts. I am just giving the
other side of the story... What happens if the parts you supply are incorrect,
broken, poor quality, out of specs, what happens then? Are you sure the sensors
are bad? Just asking. Maybe a bad cat or broken wires, misinterpretation of
data. Use OEM or OEM supplier sensors or you may have another set of problems.

They can be in REAL inaccessible places and tough to remove. It depends.

Just like a lawyer would say: It depends. ;)

--
Tekkie

[Rod Speed]

"micky" <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote in message
news:0pne6glgchmgchnun...@4ax.com...

> Are my business assumptions correct?
>
> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
> install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
> if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
> probably do the remaining 2 or 3. I'd prefer to do it myself mostly for
> the satisfaction and bragging rights, but also to save money.
>
> However if I fail with 2 or 3 of them, I would take them to a shop to be
> installed.
>
> For no special reason except that I think I know how the world works,
> I've always felt that if I buy parts and bring them to a shop to be
> installed, the owner will make up the loss in profits on selling the
> parts with an increased charge for labor, or something, on the theory
> that the job takes the same amount of time minus 10 minutes to order the
> parts, and he shouldn't be deprived of the normal income.
>
> Is this true?

It varys with the shop.

> Is there a difference if the shop's owner
> has a reputation for being honest?

Not honest so much as operates that way.

> Or do honest shops just charge the flat rate for the job
> and skip the profit they would have made on the parts?

Some do, some don't.

> If I were in their shoes and I felt obliged to do that, I would be
> irked by a customer like I might turn out to be, and I might even,
> I would be tempted to rush the job, potentially making a mistake.

If they had any sense they wouldn't because that would
stuff their reputation if it went bad because they did that.
But the worst of them don't care about stuff like that.

> Or to skip almost optional things like cleaning up great afterwards,
> or putting the paper floor mat in front of the driver's seat.

That varys even when they supply the parts.

[Rod Speed]

micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote

> Are my business assumptions correct?
>
> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes,
> and I need to install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.

Its very unlikely that more than one has failed.

[Scott Dorsey]

Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote
>
>> Are my business assumptions correct?
>>
>> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes,
>> and I need to install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.
>
>Its very unlikely that more than one has failed.

It's very unlikely any of them have failed. I cannot even count the number
of times I have seen cars blowing black smoke out the tailpipe which have
just got new oxygen sensors because the computer was throwing a code saying
the sensor was out of range in the rich direction.

The morons don't bother to figure out why it threw the code, they just swap
out parts at random. They love swapping parts out.

[Hank Rogers]

micky wrote:
> Are my business assumptions correct?
>
> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes, and I need to
> install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors. I know I can install one of them, and
> if I find a place where I can jack up the car and work underneath, I can
> probably do the remaining 2 or 3.

The time honored redneck method is to find a shallow ditch to drive
the car onto. Then, there's room to crawl under it.

In city ghettos, poor folks used to drive one side of the car over
the curb, thus elevating the side you need to access. I (and my
uncle) completely overhauled a 1957 plymouth using this technique.
The lot was steeply sloping and that helped too. We replaced crank
and rod bearings, pistons, rings, seals, etc. But, we did the valve
job in the gravel driveway since it could be done from the top.

Naturally, these are only options if the car is still in somewhat
running condition, or you have lots of neighbors to push the
clunker into position.

[Peeler]

On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:22:11 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

>> Is this true?
>
> It varys with the shop.

So much wisdom again in one little senile head, eh, senile Rodent?

More senile "wisdom" from the senile Australian bullshit artist:
"Some things are much harder to do than others."
MID: <h4qo0g...@mid.individual.net>

LMAO

--
gfre...@aol.com addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bullshitter who demonstrates
his particular prowess at it every day."
MID: <rufg9ep6ggjdt3uek...@4ax.com>

[Hank Rogers]

When my truck had codes showing all four Oxygen sensors were
suddenly bad, it indeed turned out that the damn computer itself
had failed. The dealer installed a new ecu. It burned out within 2
blocks. They finally installed yet another, but also replaced all
the wires to the O2 sensors. It's still running after 5 years now.

This truck isn't used much, so I think the damn rats probably
chewed up the wires. They ate all the original insulation around
the battery too :) The dodge ECU couldn't handle the short
circuits. A piss poor electrical design I reckon.

[Ken Olson]

The shop I use for stuff I don't do myself doesn't care. But then I buy
my tires and have other work done there.

--
ÄLSKAR - Fänga Dagen

[Steve W.]

Well you can piss money away by changing the sensors but it's not going
to clear those codes. You have a different problem.

As to what the shop does, it depends on the shop. In mine if a customer
brings their own parts, they are installed with no testing or warranty
given because those are the parts YOU want installed. It is also noted
on the paperwork that "Customer supplied parts installed per their
direction" That way if the parts are wrong or don't fix the issue it's
not my problem.
No difference in the labor rate.

Now a good shop would bring in the car, do an actual diagnostic on it,
then repair the real issue, which in this case could be nothing more
than a broken vacuum fitting or bad intake boot that is letting excess
air in past the MAF. Or a skewed MAF that is reading a low GPS number
and the PCM thinks it's getting less air than it really is. Fuel trims
and O2 live data would show that and changing the sensors will do nothing.
Also you may wish to know that the only sensors involved with those
codes are the two upstream sensors, the downstream units are for testing
the cat efficiency and as back-ups to the upstreams if they fail.

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX
changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag
and finding the real issue.
They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem...

--
Steve W.

[Xeno]

It always amazes me how people think that a *code reader* is the be all
and end all of engine diagnostics. They seem to think an understanding
of what's going on under the hood is no longer necessary. Unfortunately
the diagnostician needs a very good understanding of system operation
else they will be continually replacing bits which are showing
*symptoms* of the real fault. This current case is the perfect example
of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

--

Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <s491im$6fr$2...@dont-email.me>, Steve W. <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote:
>Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX
>changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag
>and finding the real issue.
>They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem...

"But I saw on the Internet that replacing the front bumper will fix the
rough idle problem!"

[Tekkie©]

On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:02:02 +1100, Xeno posted for all of us to digest...

Parts cannon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

--
Tekkie

[Tekkie©]

On 3 Apr 2021 14:49:40 -0000, Scott Dorsey posted for all of us to digest...

>
> In article <s491im$6fr$2...@dont-email.me>, Steve W. <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote:
> >Yep, I love the ones who bring in a vehicle and say "Here I want XX
> >changed, I know they are the problem" Instead of actually doing a diag
> >and finding the real issue.
> >They always seem to complain though when it doesn't repair the problem...
>
> "But I saw on the Internet that replacing the front bumper will fix the
> rough idle problem!"
> --scott

Really? I thought it was the rear bumper because that's where the exhaust comes
out...

--
Tekkie

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 3 Apr 2021 08:28:38 +1100, "Rod Speed"

<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote
>
>> Are my business assumptions correct?
>>
>> I'm trying to get rid of some engine trouble codes,
>> and I need to install 2 or 4 oxygen sensors.
>
>Its very unlikely that more than one has failed.

I'll post a whole new thread about this later, where everyone will see
it, but it turned out it was none of the 02 sensors. But I hadn't
replaced any either. I fixed it myself but it took me 3.5 years!