IS A/C TOPPING OFF LEGAL IN YOUR STATE?

[George B]

In article <3vbqb4$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
gble...@aol.com (GBlessing) wrote:
Is topping
>off a LEAKING system legal?

I was lead to believe at a recent A/C seminar that topping off a known leaking
system where the source of the leak is determinable visually or with leak
detection aparatus is exactly the same as an intentional release and
therefore illegal. If the system has leaked but there is no visible evidance
and the source can not be found with properly functioning leak detection
equipment then it is ok to charge the system.

But then again, the guys giving the seminar were not envionmental lawyers and
could have been wrong.

George Bonser
gr...@cris.com

[Robert Alpert]

GBlessing (gble...@aol.com) wrote:
: Florida has the strictest R-12 laws, how is it in other states? Is topping

: off a LEAKING system legal?

I don't believe so. However as a practical matter this is almost
impossible to enforce, at least for individuals who work on their own.

--
Bob Alpert
alp...@netaxs.com

[Jeffrey Levy]

In article <3vcl9a$4...@nnrp2.primenet.com>, gri...@primenet.com (Mr. Fun) says: >gr...@cris.com (George B) wrote: >>In article <3vbqb4$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, >> gble...@aol.com (GBlessing) wrote: >> Is topping >>>off a LEAKING system legal? >>I was lead to believe at a recent A/C seminar that topping off a known leaking >>system where the source of the leak is determinable visually or with leak >>detection aparatus is exactly the same as an intentional release and >>therefore illegal. If the system has leaked but there is no visible evidance >>and the source can not be found with properly functioning leak detection >>equipment then it is ok to charge the system. For the record, gang: topping off a leaking system is perfectly legal under federal law, and perfectly legal under some state laws, like Florida. In fact, the original poster was trying find out exactly what states had banned topping off. There is no fundamental difference between "knowing" there's a leak and "not knowing". After all, why do you need to add refrigerant in the first place? Because it leaks! A slow leak is just a slower version of a fast leak... I'd like to point out that we didn't ban topping off precisely to protect consumers from shops that might take advantage of a federal requirement and overcharge consumers. The best environmental policy would arguably be to require leak repair, as we do on large stationary systems. But in fact, for similar reasons, we don't require leak repair on small stationary systems (those with charges under 50 lbs.). Believe it or not, we weighed the costs and benefits and decided to protect consumer's interests. Jeffrey Levy - USEPA Visit our Strat. Ozone Home Page at http://www.epa.gov/docs/ozone/ or call our hotline at 800-296-1996 for fact sheets and pamphlets related to the science and regulation of protecting the ozone layer.

[I could be... Elvis?]

alp...@netaxs.com (Robert Alpert) wrote:

>GBlessing (gble...@aol.com) wrote:
>: Florida has the strictest R-12 laws, how is it in other states? Is topping

>: off a LEAKING system legal?

>I don't believe so. However as a practical matter this is almost

>impossible to enforce, at least for individuals who work on their own.

>--
> Bob Alpert
> alp...@netaxs.com

I can't speak for any state, including texas, where I live, but I know for a
fact that there is no federal law/rule the prohibits topping off a known
leaking system, regardless of whether or not the source of the leak is
known. If anyone can volunteer concrete information as to whether or not
their state allows topping off, please email or post here, and I'll include
it in the FAQ. Also i'd be interested in any additional licenses that are
required by other states in addition to the federal license.

--steve
sra...@bangate.compaq.com

Steve Ravet sra...@bangate.compaq.com
"Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce...."
Member of John De Armond fan club....

[George B]

In article <DCLt5...@rtpnc.epa.gov>,
levy.j...@epamail.epa.gov (Jeffrey Levy) wrote:

THANK YOU JEFFERY!!!!

I am going to save this just in case. But I thank you for setting the record
straight.

George Bonser
gr...@cris.com

[brian skelly]

George, the EPA's final on this says that you can top off a
system. However they strongly advise all systems be given a leak
test and repaired.

[brian skelly]

but remember, this rule will vary from state to state.

[GBlessing]

Dave,
A shop may not steal your R12, even if your system is leaking. They can't
add any (at least not here in Florida) but they can't legally take it
either.
J Blessing ASE Master Tech

[I could be... Elvis?]

David Cooley <cool...@nando.net> wrote:

>gble...@aol.com (GBlessing) wrote:

>It isn't considered stealing... Having a father and 2 brothers recently
>licensed for A/C, the law (federal) clearly states that if any system is
>brought in for A/C repair, and the owner does not consent to repair of a
>leak, ALL freon is to be removed from the system. no exceptions. It
>doesn't state that if you put in 12 ounces and find a leak, you only take
>out 12 ounces... it mandates that the system be emptied!
>And this goes for R-12 and R-134a as well.

>Later,
>Dave
>cool...@nando.net

You'll have to quote that part of the law. My MACS guide clearly states on
page 21 (Summary of Federal Mobile A/C Service Requirements):

1) Any refrigerant removed during service must be recovered and recycled,
not vented

2) It is legal (except as required by state and local laws) to add
refrigerant to a pre-existing leaking system.

3) It is not required under federal regulations to remove refrigerant from
a leaking system. (This action may be required under state and local laws).

4) If the customer arrives with some unknown amount of refrigerant in the
system, and it is removed by the technician, and the system is not repaired,
the technician must return to the system any refrigerant which was in the
system when it arrived, unless the custome agrees to its removal.

So.....

You can top off existing leaking systems under federal law.

You don't have to evacuate leaking systems

The shop can't steal what you brought with you.

--steve

[GBlessing]

Dave-I beg to differ. Steve-Agreed.

[David Cooley]

gble...@aol.com (GBlessing) wrote:

>Dave,
> A shop may not steal your R12, even if your system is leaking. They can't
>add any (at least not here in Florida) but they can't legally take it
>either.

>J Blessing ASE Master Tech

It isn't considered stealing... Having a father and 2 brothers recently

[David Cooley]

sra...@bangate.compaq.com (I could be... Elvis?) wrote:

>fact that there is no federal law/rule the prohibits topping off a known
>leaking system, regardless of whether or not the source of the leak is
>known. If anyone can volunteer concrete information as to whether or not
>their state allows topping off, please email or post here, and I'll include
>it in the FAQ. Also i'd be interested in any additional licenses that are
>required by other states in addition to the federal license.

Steve,
For a licensed repair shop, if they top off a system and find a leak, they
are required by federal law to immediately remove the freon and are not
allowed to re-charge it until the owner has the leak fixed. For a back
yard mechanic, there is no law that prohibits it, but if they aren't
licensed, they can't get the R-12 anyway. EPA regulations state that even
a backyard mechanic may NEVER under any circumstances release freon into
the air.

Later,
Dave Cooley
cool...@nando.net

[George B]

In article <DCqxs...@twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com>,

sra...@bangate.compaq.com (I could be... Elvis?) wrote:

>David Cooley <cool...@nando.net> wrote:
>
>>gble...@aol.com (GBlessing) wrote:
>
>>>Dave,
>>> A shop may not steal your R12, even if your system is leaking. They can't
>>>add any (at least not here in Florida) but they can't legally take it
>>>either.

I just read within the last week that in Florida, a leaking system can NOT be
returned to the owner with R-12 in it. The customer is not REQUIRED to fix the
leak but if the customer declines the repair, the refrigerant MUST be removed
from the system before the vehicle can be released from the shop. This is not
a federal law, it is a Florida law. It might have been changed/modified since
the document that I read was written.

George Bonser
gr...@cris.com

[Tehdoi]

>A shop may not steal your R12, even if your system is leaking. They can't
>add any (at least not here in Florida) but they can't legally take it
either

I had my freon and money stolen. I asked a shop to top off my system. They
said I had a leak, and wanted $900. I refused. Then they charged me $49 to
evacuate the system because they said it was Federal Law.

I went to another shop, who said there was no law, and that there was no
leak.
Robbed again.

[GBlessing]

I don't know what document you read but that isn't true for Florida, or
any where that I know of for that matter.The law here is that R12 can be
added to test a system, the amount that is added must be removed, the
amount the cutomer came in with must remain unless they authorize removal.

[Mr. Fun]

David Cooley <cool...@nando.net> wrote:

>gble...@aol.com (GBlessing) wrote:

>>Dave,

>> A shop may not steal your R12, even if your system is leaking. They can't
>>add any (at least not here in Florida) but they can't legally take it

>>either.

>>J Blessing ASE Master Tech

>It isn't considered stealing... Having a father and 2 brothers recently

>licensed for A/C, the law (federal) clearly states that if any system is
>brought in for A/C repair, and the owner does not consent to repair of a
>leak, ALL freon is to be removed from the system. no exceptions. It
>doesn't state that if you put in 12 ounces and find a leak, you only take
>out 12 ounces... it mandates that the system be emptied!
>And this goes for R-12 and R-134a as well.

>Later,
>Dave
>cool...@nando.net

Does the law actaully say that or is it some instructors "interpetation"?
Does it say you MUST regardless of the owners objection STEAL their freon or
does it say sometime more like, "leaking systems should be evacuated" implying
an action but not mandating it?

[Scot Homer]

> >
> >>>Dave,
> >>> A shop may not steal your R12, even if your system is leaking. They can't
> >>>add any (at least not here in Florida) but they can't legally take it
> >>>either.
>

I think its pushing it to call this stealing. Confiscation is more like
it. Something on the order of having your car impounded because its not
"street legal". If the law truly mandates this, then it is the
unfortunate shop owner that is stuck doing the EPA's dirty work. If
they don't then they are subject to prosecution. If they do and someone
sues them over it they will be left alone to defend themselves.

--
S.E. Homer

[Marsh J. Ray]

In article <3vpffk$1...@parsifal.nando.net>, cool...@nando.net says...

>
>gble...@aol.com (GBlessing) wrote:
>> A shop may not steal your R12, even if your system is leaking. They can't
>>add any (at least not here in Florida) but they can't legally take it
>>either.

>>J Blessing ASE Master Tech
>
>It isn't considered stealing... Having a father and 2 brothers recently
>licensed for A/C, the law (federal) clearly states that if any system is
>brought in for A/C repair, and the owner does not consent to repair of a
>leak, ALL freon is to be removed from the system. no exceptions. It
>doesn't state that if you put in 12 ounces and find a leak, you only take
>out 12 ounces... it mandates that the system be emptied!
>And this goes for R-12 and R-134a as well.

>Dave
>cool...@nando.net

I heard on the news that the FL state legislature is considering repealing
the law against refrigerant replacement. I believe the reasoning lies with
the end of production of R12.

- Marsh