Kia cylinder numbering system

[ivanv...@gmail.com]

KIA 2008 Rondo 2.7 Liter V-6.

Still trying to solve my P0302 (misfire cylinder 2) problem. Replaced the three easy spark plugs, erased the codes, car ran fine for about 5 minutes and then the code reappeared. BTW, I also switched the three coils hoping the problem would prove a bad coil.

Anyway, now I have to do major wrenching to get to the three back spark plugs. The on-line service manual has no information on cylinder numbering. Under specs. it does state that the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6 !! I rather doubt that unless they have a funny way of numbering cylinders.

Called one dealer's service dept. and, after 5 minutes on hold they told me that cylinder number one is the one 'up-front'. I asked if 'up-front' means at the front bumper end of the car? Yes. I reminded her that there are 3 cylinders 'up-front'. Another 5 minutes and she told me it's the one on the end. Gently I reminded her that there are 'two' ends to this bank of three cylinders. 2 more minutes and she said it was the 'right' end, (that would be the furthest from the timing belts).

Called second dealer and talked to service manager. Stated he did not know (he's honest!) and would I please hold. After 10 minutes he said that cylinder number one is front left as you face the engine standing in front of the timing belts. After all this effort I was too embarrassed to ask him whether the numbering thereafter continues straight back or zig-zag across.

Do any of you know? I plan on tearing into it tomorrow. I plan on switching the coils on that bank also in order to find out if it's a coil, or wiring.

Thanks for any and all help.

Ivan Vegvary

[Tegger]

ivanv...@gmail.com wrote in
news:9665465.33.1326840415205.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prhb20:

> KIA 2008 Rondo 2.7 Liter V-6.
>
>

> Do any of you know? I plan on tearing into it tomorrow. I plan on
> switching the coils on that bank also in order to find out if it's a
> coil, or wiring.
>

I found this:

From belt end to trans end of cylinder head, the numbering is :

Firewall
1 - 3 - 5
------------> transmission
2 - 4 - 6
radiator

here:
<http://www.hyundai-forums.com/181-nf-2006-2010-sonata/98090-cylinder-number-locations-2007-sonata-3-3-le-v6.html>

It's for the 3.3 version, but it's very unlikely Hyundai/Kia
chose different numbering orders for different displacements.

By the way, a misfire code does NOT necessarily indicate
problems with the ignition system. Misfire codes are also set
when there's an EGR issue, an intake manifold gasket leak,
or any other situation that results in cylinders failing
to provide equal impulses to the crankshaft.

You would be wise to scan the engine with an OBD-II
code reader for the many relevant parameters, before
doing any more work.


--
Tegger

[Reed]

Just because the code says "misfire", the cause may not be the
plugs/coils. A clogged/bad fuel injector can cause same code. Before
"major wrenching", try a can of injector cleaner ( I like SeaFoam)
first. I had same symptoms on my car. Messing with plugs/coils made no
difference. Injector cleaner fixed it.

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

I've seen Kias try to accelerate. I've got a hard time believing their
cylinders are numbered anything other than 1, 2.

</joke>

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dedicated to the unrestricted propagation of worthless
information across the Internet.

[ivanv...@gmail.com]

>
> You would be wise to scan the engine with an OBD-II
> code reader for the many relevant parameters, before
> doing any more work.
>
>
> --
> Tegger

Thanks Tegger!!

I do have an OBD-II code reader (inexpensive HF model). Are you suggesting that a better reader would give me more detail than P0302?

Thanks again. BTW a third dealer's service dept. confirmed the same cylinder layout that you had illustrated. He (service mgr.) said it took him 4 hours on the KIA web site (all the manuals are on the web for free) to find the info.
I still can't believe, even with the layout you had sent me, that the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6. Having spent 50 plus years around cars, this would seem to be a very unbalanced firing order. Of course with computer control, maybe not.
Thanks again,

Ivan Vegvary

[Reed]

(snip)

> Thanks again. BTW a third dealer's service dept. confirmed the same cylinder layout that you had illustrated. He (service mgr.) said it took him 4 hours on the KIA web site (all the manuals are on the web for free) to find the info.
> I still can't believe, even with the layout you had sent me, that the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6. Having spent 50 plus years around cars, this would seem to be a very unbalanced firing order. Of course with computer control, maybe not.
> Thanks again,
>
> Ivan Vegvary
>

GM had a v-6 in the 1980's that had 1-2-3-4-5-6 order. Seems to have
more to do with crankshaft layout. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firing_order

(NOTE, if Wiki is still blacked out, press escape key immediately as
page starts to appear.

[jim beam]

that's not going to work in a vehicle that shuts the injectors down. at
the very least, you'll need to clear the code to persuade it to inject
again before any cleaner will start to work through.

besides, i'm pretty sure the computer knows the difference between
misfire and clogged injector. the latter is preceded by the computer
having to increase fuel pulse width as flow rate declines, so it should
know to set a different code.

to prevent clogged injectors, it's better to use good quality gasoline
that has a decent detergent package. or if you can't get that, injector
cleaner once or twice a year.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Reed]

This from

http://www.obd-codes.com/p0302

P0302 Code - Cylinder #2 Misfire
Technical Description

Cylinder #2 Misfire Detected
What does that mean?

A P0302 code means that the the car's computer has detected that one
of the engine's cylinders is not firing properly. In this case it's
cylinder #2.
Symptoms
Symptoms may include:

* the engine may be harder to start
* the engine may stumble / stumble, and/or hesitate
* other symptoms may also be present

Causes

A code P0302 may mean that one or more of the following has happened:

* Faulty spark plug or wire
* Faulty coil (pack)
* Faulty oxygen sensor(s)
>>>>* Faulty fuel injector <<<<<<<<
* Burned exhaust valve
* Faulty catalytic converter(s)
* Running out of fuel
* Poor compression
* Defective computer

I was trying to suggest trying something simple and easy before
busting too many knuckles trying to work on the rear bank of plugs,
and that more than plugs/coils can cause a P0302 code.
BTDT

[jim beam]

ok, but as you may or may not know, there are more codes than just the
"0" series - the ones you're showing here. most manufacturers have
"proprietary" codes in the "1" series, and as i stated before, it makes
no programming sense to just use a "misfire" code when in fact it's a
detectable injector problem for which you can trip a different code.

but all this talk is just as effective as the psychic hotline until the
op actually bothers to put in new plugs - because as far as i'm able to
understand, he still hasn't done so on the cylinder the computer is
indicating has the problem.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Tegger]

ivanv...@gmail.com wrote in
news:22834403.2488.1326912604557.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prmu37:

>
>>
>> You would be wise to scan the engine with an OBD-II
>> code reader for the many relevant parameters, before
>> doing any more work.
>>
>>
>>
>

> Thanks Tegger!!
>
>
> I do have an OBD-II code reader (inexpensive HF model). Are you
> suggesting that a better reader would give me more detail than P0302?

Yes. A better reader, such as a laptop-based one, would give you most or
all of the many engine parameters, which may help lead you to a solution.

Here's the one I have:
http://www.obddiagnostics.com/




--
Tegger

[Tegger]

Reed <re...@rmi.net> wrote in news:HJqdnYvHc-
SB4orSnZ2dn...@giganews.com:

>
> Cylinder #2 Misfire Detected
> What does that mean?
>
> A P0302 code means that the the car's computer has detected that one
> of the engine's cylinders is not firing properly.

That's an inaccurate description. "Misfire" means that that cylinder isn't
shoving the crankshaft around with the same force as the other cylinders.
The ECM interprets and reports that mismatch as a "misfire".

The problem here is the term "misfire", which peple tend to associate with
things like spark plugs and firearms. But in the OBD-II environment,
"misfire" has the very different definition I gave above.


--
Tegger

[jim beam]

wtf still has a laptop with a serial port????


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

it's not simply a "moving" thing dude. or at least, shouldn't be on any
half-way competent management system. a partially blocked injector
requiring a wider fuel pulse width for example gives a completely
different crank speed fluctuation signature - especially in the presence
of a knock sensor - to a misfiring plug.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[gpsman]

On Jan 19, 10:01 am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 01/19/2012 04:45 AM, Tegger wrote:
>
> > A better reader, such as a laptop-based one, would give you most or
> > all of the many engine parameters, which may help lead you to a solution.
>

> wtf still has a laptop with a serial port????

Me. And 1 serial-usb adapter.

Of course the LCD blew, and I haven't fired it up in a couple years.

There's still data on that POS I need to backup... when I can find the
time...
-----

- gpsman

[orangeblo...@gmail.com]

This is true.