Premature Ball Joint Failure

[Chris F.]

A couple years back I rebuilt my grandmas old '89 Honda Civic. She doesn't
drive anymore, and I rarely drive due to health problems, but my parents
have been use it quite often. A few days ago my Dad informed me that it
wasn't steering properly, and I noticed the front right wheel was visibly
out of camber. Once I got things apart, I discovered that the upper ball
joint, which I had newly replaced 2 1/2 years ago, was completely worn out -
no grease left at all, and the ball wobbling loosely in the socket. This
part has less than 25000 km wear on it, making me wonder what could have
gone wrong. There at two factors that I suspect may be involved, and since
my knowledge is limited I will leave you to ponder which is the most
feasible. First of all, the struts and springs on this car are badly worn
and the car rides very low, and of course does not give a very comfortable
ride on bumpy roads. I didn't replace them due to the extra time and cost,
figuring there was lots of time since the car was not used heavily. The
other factor is the ball joint boot cover. When I installed that control arm
/ ball joint, I removed the factory-supplied boot cover and installed a
Polyurethane one (from Prothane) instead. I noticed that the new boot did
not have a clip to retain it unlike the original, but figured it must be
safe or they wouldn't be selling them. I now wonder if the aftermarket boot
didn't seal properly, and allowed water / salt / etc. to get into the joint
and ruin it. I'm now suspicious of the lower ball joints and tie rods ends
as well, which I also covered with polyurethane boots, and am wondering if I
should also take those apart and examine for similar damage.
I should also mention that all of these components are aftermarket stuff I
bought online, as OEM was just too expensive.
I plan to replace both upper arms as a precaution, and use the
factory-supplied boot covers next time. What I need advice on now, is how to
prevent this premature failure from happening again.
Thanks for any advice.

[Paul in Houston TX]

It sounds like you figured it out.
I like the kind with grease fittings.

[jim beam]

On 03/25/2012 12:10 PM, Chris F. wrote:
> <snip> the upper ball

> joint, which I had newly replaced 2 1/2 years ago, was completely worn out -

> <snip>

> I should also mention that all of these components are aftermarket stuff I

> bought online.

well, there you go, question answered.

next time, separate "cheap to buy" from "cheap to own" and you'll never
have this problem again.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Tegger]

"Chris F." <zapp...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:4f6f6dc3$0$31082$9a56...@news.aliant.net:

> A couple years back I rebuilt my grandmas old '89 Honda Civic. She
> doesn't
> drive anymore, and I rarely drive due to health problems, but my
> parents have been use it quite often. A few days ago my Dad informed
> me that it wasn't steering properly, and I noticed the front right
> wheel was visibly out of camber. Once I got things apart, I discovered
> that the upper ball joint, which I had newly replaced 2 1/2 years ago,
> was completely worn out - no grease left at all, and the ball wobbling
> loosely in the socket.

You used an aftermarket part.

> I should also mention that all of these components are aftermarket
> stuff I bought online, as OEM was just too expensive.

Now you know why OE is expensive: It lasts.


--
Tegger

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Mar 25, 6:13 pm, Tegger <inva...@example.com> wrote:
> "Chris F." <zappy...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:4f6f6dc3$0$31082$9a56...@news.aliant.net:

Consider what your time and effort is worth. Nothing pisses me off
more than having to do a job over because some shmuck just couldn't
get it right the first time. I did ball joints on my car 6 years ago.
I was going to get aftermarket because yes it was cheap. But when you
think about it if you keep them properly greased this is a job you
should only have to do once on a car. I settled for the Moog brand at
almost 60.00 apiece. It hurt at the time but I've never regretted it.
Most of the after market stuff is Chinese (or worse if that's even
possible) crap. I might consider using some of that on a car I was
planning to sell. But even that would probably be immoral. Lenny

[Noone]

"klem kedidelhopper" <captainvi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:371e49d4-7e05-472c...@12g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

################

Isn't Moog aftermarket?

[Chris F.]

Looking at some sales receipts, I realized that the upper control arms I
installed were part of a kit, which also included the lower ball joints and
inner + outer tie rod ends - for a total of $106+ shipping. I hate to say it
but, I suppose I'm going to have to replace all of those now, right?
I'm considering ordering Moog-branded parts from an online supplier, it's
still cheaper than OEM and Moog has a good reputation.
I also wonder if I should replace the shocks too, as I mentioned they are
badly worn.

[hls]

"Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:jkpstb$3t6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>
> Isn't Moog aftermarket?

Yes, MOOG would be considered aftermarket, although they may manufacture
OEM quality materials for manufacturers.

There are very good aftermarket parts, and there are crappy parts. The
issue is
to know the difference.

To say that aftermarket is never as good as OEM is just not correct.

[klem kedidelhopper]

When I said "aftermarket I was (incorrectly) using that term.
Yes Moog is aftermarket but it is a "quality" aftermarket brand. Moog
has been around as long as I can remember and I would have no problem
trusting that brand.

[jim beam]

On 03/26/2012 07:59 AM, Chris F. wrote:
> Looking at some sales receipts, I realized that the upper control arms I
> installed were part of a kit, which also included the lower ball joints and
> inner + outer tie rod ends - for a total of $106+ shipping. I hate to say it
> but, I suppose I'm going to have to replace all of those now, right?

yes.

> I'm considering ordering Moog-branded parts from an online supplier, it's
> still cheaper than OEM and Moog has a good reputation.

moog are fine, but you don't need the adjustability. in fact, you'll
probably spend more money monkeying about getting alignment sorted after
fitting them than you would do just coughing up the dough for oem which
are aligned right first time.

> I also wonder if I should replace the shocks too, as I mentioned they are
> badly worn.

you're not driving this car, and you're not altering the camber, so
stick with oem components. if you go to a junkyard, you might get lucky
and find some that have been recently replaced and still in good condition.

the exception would be shocks. oem honda are nothing special in terms
of ride, but they last quite well. practically identical in terms of
function and quality are kyb gr2's, and they're a whole lot cheaper.

but don't replace them unless you have the tools. cheapo coil spring
compressors are downright dangerous, if you can even get them to fit.
[most don't since the honda coils are very tight.] and if you scratch
the spring's surface by mishandling, it'll fatigue and break - with
potentially very serious results for the car's occupants. you either
need to take it to a shop with the right type of compressor, make your
own which doesn't actually touch the spring at all,

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2334362171>

or leave this stuff alone. i suggest the latter.

but if you really want to pay attention to this vehicle, you have the
skill, and want keep it running well, replace the rear trailing arm
bushings. part number 52385-S21-003. they're always either cracked, or
broken, and they dramatically affect the vehicle's handling.

the tool you need is here:

<http://www.shoptoolsshoptools.com/shopexd.asp?id=2784>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Chris F.]

I see rockauto.com has Moog but also many other brands as well... are there
any other brands that are just as good or better? In particular, how about
Mevotech, Beck-Arnely, or Raybestos?

[N8N]

I guess the questions would be, what brand were the parts you used,
and did they have grease fittings? There's a vast range of quality of
aftermarket parts, and some of the less expensive stuff is decent and
some is not. Unfortunately without first hand knowledge it is hard to
tell the difference, and even a known-good brand can change suppliers/
mfgrs. at any time. I would try to stick with an established brand
like TRW or Moog and if the parts are purchased from a reputable parts
store (in my mind, that's something like Carquest or NAPA - since my
"good" local chain was assimilated by NAPA a few years ago - not pep
boys or the like) will come with some kind of warranty, although
likely not covering your time or alignments in any case (another good
argument for sticking with known brands.)

nate

[C. E. White]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:jkq3hi$l8d$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> but don't replace them unless you have the tools. cheapo coil spring
> compressors are downright dangerous, if you can even get them to fit.
> [most don't since the honda coils are very tight.] and if you scratch the
> spring's surface by mishandling, it'll fatigue and break - with
> potentially very serious results for the car's occupants. you either need
> to take it to a shop with the right type of compressor, make your own
> which doesn't actually touch the spring at all,
>
> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2334362171>

So what is the tool bearing on, if not the spring - the outside of the
spring perchs?

Ed

[hls]

"Chris F." <zapp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4f70b830$0$16771$9a56...@news.aliant.net...

>I see rockauto.com has Moog but also many other brands as well... are there
>any other brands that are just as good or better? In particular, how about
>Mevotech, Beck-Arnely, or Raybestos?

Do some research on specific parts before you buy. Dont buy the cheapest
part on the shelf, unless you KNOW it is superior.

For example, the Dorman replacement plenum for 90's era GM 3800 series
engines was SUPERIOR to the GM crap. GM let its customers buy crap
for about 10 years and did not address their quality problems.

Wagner, Fel-Pro and others are also quality manufacturers.

Some years ago, almost ALL master cylinders on Chrysler cars failed
prematurely. The answer was to buy aftermarket (in this case EIS
seemed to be the best and easiest fix, in cases where they would fit. In
most cases, they fit perfectly, buy in myh 428 Cobra Mustang, they just
would not clear the engine)

[Scott Dorsey]

Chris F. <zapp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I should also mention that all of these components are aftermarket stuff I
>bought online, as OEM was just too expensive.
> I plan to replace both upper arms as a precaution, and use the
>factory-supplied boot covers next time. What I need advice on now, is how to
>prevent this premature failure from happening again.

Don't buy cheap aftermarket stuff online.

> Thanks for any advice.

And don't buy cheap aftermarket stuff from chain stores either.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[jim beam]

On 03/26/2012 11:40 AM, Chris F. wrote:
> I see rockauto.com has Moog but also many other brands as well... are there
> any other brands that are just as good or better? In particular, how about
> Mevotech, Beck-Arnely, or Raybestos?

beck-arnley maybe, but most of the aftermarkets for a vehicle this age
are made in china. and the cost savings vs. oem are simply not there.
the upper joints aren't available as a separate ball oem [and i think
with good reason], but the oem lowers are considerably cheaper then the
moog's you were looking at, and and oem lowers aren't much more
expensive than the other after-markets if you buy online.

go to tegger.com and check his current list of online honda parts suppliers.

>
>>
>> but don't replace them unless you have the tools. cheapo coil spring
>> compressors are downright dangerous, if you can even get them to fit.
>> [most don't since the honda coils are very tight.] and if you scratch the
>> spring's surface by mishandling, it'll fatigue and break - with
>> potentially very serious results for the car's occupants. you either need
>> to take it to a shop with the right type of compressor, make your own
>> which doesn't actually touch the spring at all,
>>
>> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/2334362171>
>>
>> or leave this stuff alone. i suggest the latter.
>>
>> but if you really want to pay attention to this vehicle, you have the
>> skill, and want keep it running well, replace the rear trailing arm
>> bushings. part number 52385-S21-003. they're always either cracked, or
>> broken, and they dramatically affect the vehicle's handling.
>>
>> the tool you need is here:
>>
>> <http://www.shoptoolsshoptools.com/shopexd.asp?id=2784>
>>
>>
>> --
>> nomina rutrum rutrum
>
>

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

yes.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

On 03/26/2012 01:38 PM, hls wrote:
>
> "Chris F." <zapp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4f70b830$0$16771$9a56...@news.aliant.net...
>> I see rockauto.com has Moog but also many other brands as well... are
>> there any other brands that are just as good or better? In particular,
>> how about Mevotech, Beck-Arnely, or Raybestos?
>
> Do some research on specific parts before you buy. Dont buy the cheapest
> part on the shelf, unless you KNOW it is superior.
>
> For example, the Dorman replacement plenum for 90's era GM 3800 series
> engines was SUPERIOR to the GM crap. GM let its customers buy crap
> for about 10 years and did not address their quality problems.
>
> Wagner, Fel-Pro and others are also quality manufacturers.

they're certainly better than the crap found on most domestics. but for
honda, toyota, etc., it's usually worse. in the last two months, i've
done four civic head gaskets, and i used the opportunity to look at
other aftermarket gasket brand quality. fel-pro, while usable, were
notably inferior and missing some of the detail around oil channels that
the oem gaskets have. and paradoxically some of the cheap stuff from
taiwan [not mainland china] was excellent. case by case.

>
> Some years ago, almost ALL master cylinders on Chrysler cars failed
> prematurely. The answer was to buy aftermarket (in this case EIS
> seemed to be the best and easiest fix, in cases where they would fit. In
> most cases, they fit perfectly, buy in myh 428 Cobra Mustang, they just
> would not clear the engine)

for frod, g.m. and chrysler, i'd look at aftermarket before oem every
time. case by case of course, but domestic oem quality is so low, the
aftermarket stuff, even though it may be nothing special, is often superior.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Tegger]

"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in news:B_ydnW-
jXPzoEe3SnZ2...@giganews.com:

Such a statement is correct when it comes to the OP's Honda.

There are a bare handful of aftermarket parts for Hondas that even come
close to OE in quality, and balljoints are not among them.

Now if you're talking about GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. (which the OP was
not), then things may be different, and my statement does not cover those.


--
Tegger

[hls]

"Tegger" <inv...@example.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA023D231...@208.90.168.18...

>>
> Such a statement is correct when it comes to the OP's Honda.
>
> There are a bare handful of aftermarket parts for Hondas that even come
> close to OE in quality, and balljoints are not among them.
>
> Now if you're talking about GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. (which the OP was
> not), then things may be different, and my statement does not cover those.
>
>
> --
> Tegger

Maybe so, Tegger. I bow to your experience on these.
In many cases, the American aftermarket producers are OEM suppliers to the
Big 3. In some cases, the part numbers are even similar.

[jim beam]

that's true. but unlike the japanese who tend to just make one quality
of part and sell it to the oem, then sell the same part into the
aftermarket channel after a few years, domestics have an annoying
tendency to sell different qualities of component, depending on the
intended purchaser. it's called "market segmentation" and is one of the
fundamentals drummed into every business graduate. and as we all know,
domestics are run by business graduates, not engineers.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Ashton Crusher]

On Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:32:59 -0700 (PDT), N8N <njn...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

While superficially it seems like having grease fittings would be
better I've had several cars that did not have them and the parts
lasted far longer then other cars with the same-type parts that did
have grease fittings. My 86 Caprice had grease fittings on the ball
joints and both the factory joints and the quality aftermarket's both
wore out in less then 30K miles. Both had grease fittings and got
greased regularly. My 92 explorer has no grease fittings and still
has the original ball joints at 140K. I'm convinced it's not the
having of grease fittings that determine life but the overall design
of the part and the quality of the materials used and that a properly
designed and speced part in this kind of suspension service will not
need to be greased. Just my opinion.

[Vic Smith]

On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 08:37:40 -0700, Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net>
wrote:

>
>While superficially it seems like having grease fittings would be
>better I've had several cars that did not have them and the parts
>lasted far longer then other cars with the same-type parts that did
>have grease fittings. My 86 Caprice had grease fittings on the ball
>joints and both the factory joints and the quality aftermarket's both
>wore out in less then 30K miles. Both had grease fittings and got
>greased regularly. My 92 explorer has no grease fittings and still
>has the original ball joints at 140K. I'm convinced it's not the
>having of grease fittings that determine life but the overall design
>of the part and the quality of the materials used and that a properly
>designed and speced part in this kind of suspension service will not
>need to be greased. Just my opinion.

Good point. You have an experience most people don't have.
I've never replaced ball joints more than once on a vehicle.
The originals have lasted from 80k to 150k miles.
The second set never gets tested that long before the car is junked.
I suspect that's how it is for most people.
I always replace with zerked Moogs, but that's because it's "common
wisdom."
You really can't test the quality of ball joints except by using them.
Everything else is speculation and "reputation."
If a mfg's quality dives, you'll probably hear about it.
I just use Moog mainly because of reputation.
Always have.
The cost difference over the cheaper ones isn't real great, if you
consider your labor.
And I used Moog upper ball joints and all tie rod ends on my '97
Lumina at 150k miles a couple years ago,
As I recall the total cost was about $100 more that the cheapos.
I had the parts guy bring out the 3 brands they carried and the Moog
were beefier and looked better-made.
Enough so to erase any temptation to save some money.
But I'll probably never find out if they're really better, because
they won't fail before I junk the car.

ps. My son does the work now, and I mostly watch.
He's a pro suspension guy by trade.
I've done them myself on a '67 VW Squareback, a '76 Caprice, and a '78
Chevy Beauville van.
The right upper on the VW separated as I was driving down a city
street at about 35 mph, cars parked on the entire street.
It let loose just as I reached an empty bus stop, and the car jerked
right into the bus stop, skidding along the curb as I jammed the
brakes. I was very lucky.
That it happened there, and that it didn't jump the curb and crash
into a storefront, or kill somebody.
You can imagine the scenarios.
The car had given me plenty of warning, rattling and "floating" on
bumpy streets, but I knew squat about suspensions and never took my
cars to a mech then.
Had it towed to the street in front of my apartment and I put 2 new
uppers and all tie rod ends on it working on the street, as I often
did then.
After that I always had suspensions checked occasionally by suspension
mechs. But I would do the work - until my son took over.
I always do both ball joints and all tie rod ends at the same time.
Only once I needed a single tie rod end alone.
Probably a lemon from the factory.
It's really best to have a pro put the vehicle on the rack and check
it out occasionally. Every couple years at least, and immediately if
something feels flaky.
When a wheel goes sideways, you're at the mercy of luck.

--Vic

[Ashton Crusher]

Have you ever bought or looked at the www.rockauto.com auto parts
site? They actually show different quality levels when you look up a
part. In some cases they will carry the same part under two different
lines from the same manufacturer, one labeled "service grade",
presumably for people just wanting to fix it for as little as
possible, and then "premium". Sometimes there's not much difference
in price, sometimes the price is double.

[Vic Smith]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 13:00:23 -0700, Ashton Crusher <de...@moore.net>
wrote:


>

>Have you ever bought or looked at the www.rockauto.com auto parts
>site? They actually show different quality levels when you look up a
>part. In some cases they will carry the same part under two different
>lines from the same manufacturer, one labeled "service grade",
>presumably for people just wanting to fix it for as little as
>possible, and then "premium". Sometimes there's not much difference
>in price, sometimes the price is double.

No, but I went and looked, and see what you mean.
Tell you the truth, there's more choice than I want.
Just give me a good ball joint! (-:

--Vic

[/dev/phaeton]

For what it is worth, I recently replaced the front suspension on my
truck. I went to RockAuto as well, and I himmed and hawwed at the cheap
parts vs. name brand. In the end, I decided "these are the parts that
hold the front wheels onto the truck as I'm going highway speeds", so I
went with the MOOG parts. All in all I think the difference wasn't more
than $100, and I didn't miss that money longer than a week.

The MOOG parts were significantly beefier looking than the parts I took
off. So much so that I double checked all the parts numbers. I really
believe the folks in this thread that say "aftermarket is often better
than domestic OEM".

My only regret: The MOOG parts came unpainted but coated with an oily
substance. I didn't have time to strip them and paint them (plus it was
winter and I didn't have a heated garage or anywhere to paint). Now all
my nice new parts are covered in surface rust. Hopefully this won't
matter so much and they'll still outlast the truck, which is going on
185K.

Best of luck to you, but believe these folks when they say go for name
brand.

-J

[Scott Dorsey]

/dev/phaeton <blahbleh666@_no_spam_hotmail.com> wrote:
>My only regret: The MOOG parts came unpainted but coated with an oily
>substance. I didn't have time to strip them and paint them (plus it was
>winter and I didn't have a heated garage or anywhere to paint). Now all
>my nice new parts are covered in surface rust. Hopefully this won't
>matter so much and they'll still outlast the truck, which is going on
>185K.

Spray a little cosmoline on them if you are worried. If it's a good steel
with some chrome in it, that surface rust will form a stable film that will
prevent any additional rust from forming.

>Best of luck to you, but believe these folks when they say go for name
>brand.

It is amazing how much the quality of parts varies today.

[jim beam]

On 04/12/2012 07:34 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> /dev/phaeton<blahbleh666@_no_spam_hotmail.com> wrote:
>> My only regret: The MOOG parts came unpainted but coated with an oily
>> substance. I didn't have time to strip them and paint them (plus it was
>> winter and I didn't have a heated garage or anywhere to paint). Now all
>> my nice new parts are covered in surface rust. Hopefully this won't
>> matter so much and they'll still outlast the truck, which is going on
>> 185K.
>
> Spray a little cosmoline on them if you are worried. If it's a good steel
> with some chrome in it, that surface rust will form a stable film that will
> prevent any additional rust from forming.

completely untrue. chrome oxide is the tenacious and "impermeable"
layer that protects stainless steel from corroding. if there's not
sufficient chromium in the material to prevent rust in the first place,
it has no ability to prevent it continuing to happen into the future.
and the hydrated iron oxide you see as rust is absolutely no protection
whatsoever - to almost any depth.

[for steels like this, the chrome is added for the hardening effects
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strengthening_mechanisms_of_materials>
not corrosion protection.]

>
>> Best of luck to you, but believe these folks when they say go for name
>> brand.
>
> It is amazing how much the quality of parts varies today.

as is the ability of people to misinform, however well intentioned they
may be.


> --scott


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[C. E. White]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message

news:jm6qdp$c82$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> completely untrue. chrome oxide is the tenacious and "impermeable" layer
> that protects stainless steel from corroding. if there's not sufficient
> chromium in the material to prevent rust in the first place, it has no
> ability to prevent it continuing to happen into the future. and the
> hydrated iron oxide you see as rust is absolutely no protection
> whatsoever - to almost any depth.
>
> [for steels like this, the chrome is added for the hardening effects
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strengthening_mechanisms_of_materials>
> not corrosion protection.]

I have questions for you about steel and rust. Story first, then the
questions -

On my farm we have an old three point hitch mounted back hoe. It gets used
maybe ten days a year, mostly in the fall and spring. The original hydraulic
cylinders all had chrome plated activation rods. When the back hoe was
approximately ten years old the chrome randomly started dissappeaing from
portions of the rods and pits began to form. For a few years we would clean
up the rods as best we could with emery cloth and put up with minor leakage.
Eventually the missing chrome / pits got bad enough that the seals were
damaged. At this point I took the offending cylinders to a local shop to be
rebuilt. When I got them back they all had alloy steel, unplated rods. I
griped about that to the owner. He claimed I didn't want plated rods becasue
they always do exactly what the original rods did - eventually pit out and
tear up the seals. His claim was that the unplated rods would rust if I
didn't use the cylinders regualrly, but that it would be nice uniform rust
that I could easily remove with emry cloth. I went away somewhat unhappy.
The first year after I had the cylinders rebuilt, I painted the rods when I
parked the back hoe for the winter. In the spring I sanded off the pint.
That was a pain. The next year I tried coating everything with grease. It
didn't do much good because in the spring, the rods all had a light coating
of rust. However, it was easily removed and the rods cleaned up nicely and I
had no leakage problems. Since then I just park the back hoe and before I
use it. I just clean up the rust. I've been doing it this way for about 6
years.

Here is the question -

The rods rust, but it isn't like some steel rusts. The rust is thin, and
easily removed. Other old steel things around the farm often develope deep
pits when they rust. Is it a characteristic of "good" steel that it rusts
more slowly / uniformly? Or am I just lucky that these rods rust in a
somewhat accepatble manner?

To be honest, if I had to do it over again, I'd look for shop that installed
chrome plated rods, but it is hard to argue with the results. The nonplated
rods are holding up better than the originl chrome plated ones. But then I
have to believe the originals were cheap crap. I have other cylinders on the
farm that are at least as old that have never pitted out.

Ed

[Scott Dorsey]

C. E. White <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>The rods rust, but it isn't like some steel rusts. The rust is thin, and
>easily removed. Other old steel things around the farm often develope deep
>pits when they rust. Is it a characteristic of "good" steel that it rusts
>more slowly / uniformly? Or am I just lucky that these rods rust in a
>somewhat accepatble manner?

That's generally a characteristic of a steel with a lot of chromium in it.
The rust forms a thin layer rather than becoming thick and crumbly like
the rust of typical carbon steels.

>To be honest, if I had to do it over again, I'd look for shop that installed
>chrome plated rods, but it is hard to argue with the results. The nonplated
>rods are holding up better than the originl chrome plated ones. But then I
>have to believe the originals were cheap crap. I have other cylinders on the
>farm that are at least as old that have never pitted out.

Nickel plating holds up a lot better than chrome in situations like that,
in spite of it being far softer. It doesn't look cool, though, so it has
become a rarity.

[jim beam]

what kind of grease? ordinary lithium? you should try a viscous marine
grease [with calcium sulfonate in it] and see how that goes. much less
permeable because although it still has stearate soaps [which are
hydrophilic], the sulfonate adheres the surface more tenaciously.

> Since then I just park the back hoe and before I
> use it. I just clean up the rust. I've been doing it this way for about 6
> years.
>
> Here is the question -
>
> The rods rust, but it isn't like some steel rusts. The rust is thin, and
> easily removed. Other old steel things around the farm often develope deep
> pits when they rust. Is it a characteristic of "good" steel that it rusts
> more slowly / uniformly? Or am I just lucky that these rods rust in a
> somewhat accepatble manner?

different steels rust at different rates. and the microstructure of the
steel matters a lot to the tiny surface electrolytic cell formation that
is part of the rusting mechanism. as does other chemical content like
sulfur, and cold work history. but some chromium does help with slowing
some rust, even below the "stainless" threshold. so, if your modern
unplated rods rust in an "acceptable" way, it's because things like the
above have been mitigated a little.

but you know you're still getting ripped off because the proper solution
is stainless. the incremental cost to co-extrude a stainless coating
onto these rods is trivial, and it would keep the seals intact almost
indefinitely. you're witnessing cost-cutting to the extreme. and of
course, the opportunity to on-sell into the maintenance market.

>
> To be honest, if I had to do it over again, I'd look for shop that installed
> chrome plated rods, but it is hard to argue with the results. The nonplated
> rods are holding up better than the originl chrome plated ones. But then I
> have to believe the originals were cheap crap. I have other cylinders on the
> farm that are at least as old that have never pitted out.

indeed. bright chrome isn't much good at rust prevention because it's
microporous. it's the nickel [or old school, nickel and copper] beneath
is that seals the surface. once nickel started climbing in price, the
plating got thinner, and then the chemical issues got more strict...
next thing you know, you've got thin porous plating that starts to
spall, and just as you say, it shreds seals spectacularly.


>
> Ed
>
>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[jim beam]

that is why many classes of vehicles don't have them. the truth is, if
you do failure analysis on failed joints, it's almost always due to
foreign matter contamination introduced with the grease injection.

> My 86 Caprice had grease fittings on the ball
> joints and both the factory joints and the quality aftermarket's both
> wore out in less then 30K miles. Both had grease fittings and got
> greased regularly. My 92 explorer has no grease fittings and still
> has the original ball joints at 140K. I'm convinced it's not the
> having of grease fittings that determine life but the overall design
> of the part and the quality of the materials used and that a properly
> designed and speced part in this kind of suspension service will not
> need to be greased. Just my opinion.

yes, but also in no small degree due to an "unserviced" joint remaining
clean and therefore not having to suffer "grinding paste" [contaminated
grease] wear.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[/dev/phaeton]

I assume cosmoline won't do anything to parts that are already coated in
rust. If I wanted to remedy the situation, I'm guessing that my only
option is to take all the parts off, remove the rust, prime/paint and
then reinstall them, right?

My next question is how much of a difference this would make. The rusty
parts in question will be lower ball joints (press-fit), upper control
arms and tie rod ends. I don't know what kind of steel they are made
of, probably something pretty hard (which has nothing to do with rust
inhibition). Is this something that will affect the structural
integrity of the parts, or will they just look ugly?

Thanks

-J

[jim beam]

depends how rusty it is. it'll do a reasonable job of arresting further
progress if the rust isn't too bad. assuming it really is cosmoline.
i've seen that wax stuff just flake off with the rust underneath it once
it's dried.

> If I wanted to remedy the situation, I'm guessing that my only
> option is to take all the parts off, remove the rust, prime/paint and
> then reinstall them, right?

basically, yes. some paints are much better than others. i know from
experience that if you wire brush the loose flaky stuff, then do a
thorough job with rustoleum, it protects excellently.

>
> My next question is how much of a difference this would make. The rusty
> parts in question will be lower ball joints (press-fit), upper control
> arms and tie rod ends. I don't know what kind of steel they are made of,
> probably something pretty hard (which has nothing to do with rust
> inhibition). Is this something that will affect the structural integrity
> of the parts, or will they just look ugly?

for the most part, they'll just look ugly. the rust has to be really
advanced for it to affect structural integrity of components like these.
the biggest reason to address the rust issue is that of being able to
disassemble again in the future, if you need to. if you're planning on
keeping this vehicle for another 20 years, definitely take care of it.
if only 5, and you're not into recreational car fixing, probably not.
personally for this stuff, i'd go cosmolene.



>
> Thanks
>
> -J


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[Scott Dorsey]

On 4/12/2012 9:55 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 04/12/2012 07:34 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Spray a little cosmoline on them if you are worried. If it's a good steel
>> with some chrome in it, that surface rust will form a stable film that
>> will
>> prevent any additional rust from forming.
>
> completely untrue. chrome oxide is the tenacious and "impermeable" layer
> that protects stainless steel from corroding. if there's not sufficient
> chromium in the material to prevent rust in the first place, it has no
> ability to prevent it continuing to happen into the future. and the
> hydrated iron oxide you see as rust is absolutely no protection
> whatsoever - to almost any depth.

Different mechanism. Look at Cor-Ten for an extreme case.

[jim beam]

cor-ten's no good for fatigue and is still vulnerable to salt - and
therefore no good for this application.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

[hls]

"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:jmc4es$8ee$1...@panix2.panix.com...

> Different mechanism. Look at Cor-Ten for an extreme case.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Exactly.. I remember when Cor-Ten first came out, and the first bridge that
was made with this material. It builds up a slight protective coat of iron
oxide/matrix
and after the initial rusting, it settles down and lasts a long time.

Thanks for the mention.