What now, Vern? (Problem with transmission pan bolt)
Racer X
transmission (41TE automatic overdrive) in the Caravan yesterday, I
had a serious problem removing the pan.
All of the pan bolts had been over torqued. It felt like a gorilla
with an impact wrench put it together after the last fluid/filter
change. It got a fluid/filter change at a dealership a little over 2
years ago (just over 25,000 miles ago). None of the bolts were easy to
break loose, and one in particular wouldn't break loose at all.
I think that one had been driven in cross threaded with the impact
wrench. It creaked, squeaked and fought as I turned it with the
breaker bar. I used liquid wrench on it and let it soak for a couple
hours, but it didn't help. Finally, when I had it about half way out,
there was a loud snapping noise and the wrench came loose very
suddenly. At first I thought, "Great!! I broke the bolt. Now what?"
But when I retrieved the bolt from the socket, it was all there.
That's the good news, but it makes the bad news even worse. The outer
portion of the tab in the casting where the threaded bolt hole was is
now gone. It came off in 3 small pieces and a little bit of powdery
metal flakes. What's left is the classic "half of a hole." This is not
good at all.
I changed the filter and put it back together. I put a little extra
RTV sealer around the hole with the missing bolt. It doesn't seem to
be leaking, yet, but I don't like this as a permanent solution. The
missing bolt is on the rear edge of the pan. It's not the corner, but
the first bolt in from the corner on the drivers side.
I'm wondering what I should do for this problem, and also what chances
I have of getting any satisfaction from the dealership that put the
bolt in cross threaded or from Daimler/Chrysler Corporation.
For the temporary, short term situation, I'm going to take the pan off
again. I plan to clean up any rough edges (stress raisers) on the
broken edge, and to put some penetrant dye on the area to look for any
cracks in the case. If there's nothing serious, I think I'll put it
back together and put a piece of steel bar or angle stock across the
two adjacent bolts to support the pan against the case where the bolt
is missing. I'll probably use slightly longer bolts to keep the amount
of engaged threads about the same as the stock bolts without the extra
metal. Does this sound like a good plan? Does anybody have any other
suggestions or anything else I should look for?
I took several pictures and as soon as I have them developed, I plan
on contacting the dealership and to Daimler/Chrysler. The dealership
that did this was a "5 star" service location. What should I ask for?
The distance involved makes this a little more difficult for me. The
dealership that did the last transmission service is over 1,000 miles
from where we live. If they were local, I'd haul them into small
claims court here. The distance makes that less attractive, though
that isn't totally out of the question. I'm also willing to be
reasonable about the situation.
Has anybody ever dealt with Daimler Chrysler corporate and/or a
Chrysler/Dodge/Plymoth dealership over negligence on the part of their
service department? I'd like any advice anybody has about how to
proceed with this.
Racer X
1984 VW Jetta Diesel GT
1992 Mazda Miata
1983 VW Rabbit GTI (ITB racer)
1988 Mazda RX-7 (Soon to be ITS racer)
1994 Caravan (need a VW Caddy so I can dump this POS)
1992 GMC Topkick (portable garage for racecar[s])
Dean Dardwin
Racer X wrote:
While I was changing the fluid and filter in the automatic
transmission (41TE automatic overdrive) in the Caravan yesterday, I
had a serious problem removing the pan.
All of the pan bolts had been over torqued. It felt like a gorilla
with an impact wrench put it together after the last fluid/filter
change. It got a fluid/filter change at a dealership a little over 2
years ago (just over 25,000 miles ago). None of the bolts were easy to
break loose, and one in particular wouldn't break loose at all.
I think that one had been driven in cross threaded with the impact
wrench. It creaked, squeaked and fought as I turned it with the
breaker bar. I used liquid wrench on it and let it soak for a couple
hours, but it didn't help. Finally, when I had it about half way out,
there was a loud snapping noise and the wrench came loose very
suddenly. At first I thought, "Great!! I broke the bolt. Now what?"
But when I retrieved the bolt from the socket, it was all there.
That's the good news, but it makes the bad news even worse. The outer
portion of the tab in the casting where the threaded bolt hole was is
now gone. It came off in 3 small pieces and a little bit of powdery
metal flakes. What's left is the classic "half of a hole." This is not
good at all.
I changed the filter and put it back together. I put a little extra
RTV sealer around the hole with the missing bolt. It doesn't seem to
be leaking, yet, but I don't like this as a permanent solution. The
missing bolt is on the rear edge of the pan. It's not the corner, but
the first bolt in from the corner on the drivers side.
I'm wondering what I should do for this problem, and also what chances
I have of getting any satisfaction from the dealership that put the
bolt in cross threaded or from Daimler/Chrysler Corporation.
For the temporary, short term situation, I'm going to take the pan off
again. I plan to clean up any rough edges (stress raisers) on the
broken edge, and to put some penetrant dye on the area to look for any
cracks in the case. If there's nothing serious, I think I'll put it
back together and put a piece of steel bar or angle stock across the
two adjacent bolts to support the pan ag ainst the case where the bolt
is missing. I'll probably use slightly longer bolts to keep the amount
of engaged threads about the same as the stock bolts without the extra
metal. Does this sound like a good plan? Does anybody have any other
suggestions or anything else I should look for?
I took several pictures and as soon as I have them developed, I plan
on contacting the dealership and to Daimler/Chrysler. The dealership
that did this was a "5 star" service location. What should I ask for?
The distance involved makes this a little more difficult for me. The
dealership that did the last transmission service is over 1,000 miles
from where we live. If they were local, I'd haul them into small
claims court here. The distance makes that less attractive, though
that isn't totally out of the question. I'm also willing to be
reasonable about the situation.
Has anybody ever dealt with Daimler Chrysler corporate and/or a
Chrysler/Dodge/Plymoth dealership over negligence on the part of their
service department? I'd like any advice anybody has about how to
proceed with this.
Dean
Racer X
I might try that, but I don't have the bottom half of the
hole, I have the front half of the hole. As in a semi-circle
notch. It doesn't go all the way around the bolt any more,
it only covers a bit less than half of the bolt if you lay
the bolt in from the side.
> >two adjacent bolts to support the pan against the case
> where the bolt
> >is missing. I'll probably use slightly longer bolts to
> keep the amount
> >of engaged threads about the same as the stock bolts
> without the extra
> >metal. Does this sound like a good plan? Does anybody
> have any other
> >suggestions or anything else I should look for?
> >
>
> I think that might be overkill. Remember, the pan is
> vented to the
> atmosphere. It's not likely to leak from one missing bolt.
> I've seen
> tranny pans with 1/3 of the bolts missing and they didn't
> leak. Not
> recommended, at least not by me!
>
That's kind of what I was thinking, too. Actually, I don't
have a lot of experience with automatic transmissions, but
I've driven with oil pans missing 1 or 2 bolts before and
not had any leaks. It's good to hear that you don't think it
will leak.
Still, we live on a dirt road, with a 1/4 mile gravel
driveway, and the pan has some scratches and minor dings
from rocks and such. I'd prefer to have something there to
keep the lip of the pan supported. A short doubler of
thicker, stronger metal will probably make me feel better,
even if it doesn't actually do anything to help the pan.
I'm hoping there's no serious stress cracks going into the
case. If that tests good (no cracks), then I'll probably
just let it go with a small steel doubler until it has more
serious problems.
> >
> >
> >I took several pictures and as soon as I have them
> developed, I plan
> >on contacting the dealership and to Daimler/Chrysler. The
> dealership
> >that did this was a "5 star" service location. What
> should I ask for?
> >The distance involved makes this a little more difficult
> for me. The
> >dealership that did the last transmission service is over
> 1,000 miles
> >from where we live. If they were local, I'd haul them
> into small
> >claims court here. The distance makes that less
> attractive, though
> >that isn't totally out of the question. I'm also willing
> to be
> >reasonable about the situation.
> >
>
> The dealer is going to tell you to F#@$-off. It will go
> something like
> this: "it was fine when you left here and nothing was
> wrong for 25,000
> miles until you removed it. Another way to look at it, do
> you really
> want them to work on your car again?
>
No, they will never touch the thing again. You're probably
right, but I'm still going to write a few letters and faxes
anyway. If they tell me to go pound sand, I'm not any worse
off than I am now. If they offer anything better, I'm that
much ahead.
Mike Graham
>That's the good news, but it makes the bad news even worse. The outer
>portion of the tab in the casting where the threaded bolt hole was is
>now gone. It came off in 3 small pieces and a little bit of powdery
>metal flakes. What's left is the classic "half of a hole." This is not
>good at all.
Since it is doubtful that the pan would leak with one bolt missing,
and your issue is primarily supporting the lip rather than torquing
the bolt, I would be inclined to just pack the area with epoxy putty.
No, it's not the NASA-approved solution, but it'll work, and it's
cheap. The stuff that I like is called "Quicksteel" but it's all the
same, really. Just put the bolt in place and pack Quicksteel in the
gap.
--
Mike Graham | Steel-fitter and CWB-certified weldor
mike at metalmangler dot com | Raiser of horses
<http://www.metalmangler.com> | Mangler of metal
Chip Stein
> On 30 Jan 2002 06:03:15 -0800, racer...@hotmail.com (Racer X) wrote:
>
> >That's the good news, but it makes the bad news even worse. The outer
> >portion of the tab in the casting where the threaded bolt hole was is
> >now gone. It came off in 3 small pieces and a little bit of powdery
> >metal flakes. What's left is the classic "half of a hole." This is not
> >good at all.
>
> Since it is doubtful that the pan would leak with one bolt missing,
> and your issue is primarily supporting the lip rather than torquing
> the bolt, I would be inclined to just pack the area with epoxy putty.
> No, it's not the NASA-approved solution, but it'll work, and it's
> cheap. The stuff that I like is called "Quicksteel" but it's all the
> same, really. Just put the bolt in place and pack Quicksteel in the
> gap.
I'd use the remaining bolts with a strap like you said.
You could go back to the dealer but the fact is you broke it. It may
have been crossthreaded from them but it's kind of hard to prove now.
i would have called when i noticed it was so tight coming out and
asked what they thought i should do.
Call chrysler direct and talk to them, they may do something for you.
they're known for bad trannys in their vans over the years anyway.
hope this is insightfull
Chip
Tom & Debbie Heintz
"Racer X" <racer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b57cbd16.02013...@posting.google.com...
I last fall when I changed fluid & filter in the '91 Grand Voyager with the
same transmission. I ended up stripping out half of the holes after
removing the pan. Go to a real auto parts store or a machine shop & get
some Heli-Coils or the equivalent. The size for these bolts is 8mm-1.25. I
myself wouldn't blame it totally on some dummy with an impact as one
response to you did, that's too easy. It's more likely what you always get
with dissimilar metals, a galling & almost welding together which I don't
really know how to explain, but I've seen it happen too many times. Invest
in some anti-sieze compound & use it on every bolt. Use a torque wrench
also or you won't do any better than you think the last guys did. This is a
very common problem according to my brother-in-law, a transmission tech at a
Dodge dealership.
Tom Heintz "Mopar Maniac"
Randy
<tom...@ktis.net> wrote:
<snip>
Better than a heli-coil: Permatex Stripped Thread Repair.
>
>I last fall when I changed fluid & filter in the '91 Grand Voyager with the
>same transmission. I ended up stripping out half of the holes after
>removing the pan. Go to a real auto parts store or a machine shop & get
>some Heli-Coils or the equivalent. The size for these bolts is 8mm-1.25. I
>myself wouldn't blame it totally on some dummy with an impact as one
>response to you did, that's too easy. It's more likely what you always get
>with dissimilar metals, a galling & almost welding together which I don't
>really know how to explain, but I've seen it happen too many times. Invest
>in some anti-sieze compound & use it on every bolt. Use a torque wrench
>also or you won't do any better than you think the last guys did. This is a
>very common problem according to my brother-in-law, a transmission tech at a
>Dodge dealership.
>
>
>Tom Heintz "Mopar Maniac"
>
--
All fishermen are liars 'cept you and me. However, I am starting to have my doubts about you.
Racer X
<origianl post snipped>
> same transmission. I ended up stripping out half of the holes after
> removing the pan. Go to a real auto parts store or a machine shop & get
> some Heli-Coils or the equivalent. The size for these bolts is 8mm-1.25. I
I doubt there's a Helicoil that will work for my problem. This is what
the area around the hole used to look like:
| |
| \
| \
| __ \
| / \ \
| \__/ /
| /
| /
| /
| |
This is what I have now:
| |
| \
| /
| _/
| /
| \_
| \
| |
| /
| |
As you can see, I have a notch that I could just slide the bolt in
from the side. I thought Helicoils required a stripped hole that can
be drilled oversized and tapped for the helicoil insert. I don't have
the metal required for that solution.
> myself wouldn't blame it totally on some dummy with an impact as one
> response to you did, that's too easy. It's more likely what you always get
> with dissimilar metals, a galling & almost welding together which I don't
> really know how to explain, but I've seen it happen too many times.
Actually, what you're probably refering to is called galvanic
corrosion. That is corrosion that occurs because of electrical
currents between dissimilar metals. Galling is what happens when the
bolt isn't tight enough, and the parts rub against each other. In
extreme cases, the heat from the friction of the rubbing parts can
cause the high spots on the parts to weld together.
Neither of those things happened here, though. Actually, there was a
bit of corrosion on the pan where the bare metal of the pan was
against the bare metal of the transmission case. This probably
happened because all of the RTV sealant was displaced because the
bolts were overtightened. All of the other bolts turned freely once
the initial torque was released. Also, all of the other bolts had some
residue of antisieze on them. The bolt from the stripped/broken hole
had the threads severly damaged. The thread crowns were flattened more
toward the end of the bolt (almost flattened completely at the end)
than they were near the head. Also, the damage to the female threads
remaining in the part of the hole that's left is consistent with cross
threading.
> Invest in some anti-sieze compound & use it on every bolt.
I've got it and I used it.
> Use a torque wrench
> also or you won't do any better than you think the last guys did.
I always use a torque wrench when tightening bolts.
> This is a
> very common problem according to my brother-in-law, a transmission tech at a
> Dodge dealership.
So I guess the transmission tech that did the last fluid/filter change
should have known to be more careful.
>
>
> Tom Heintz "Mopar Maniac"
Tom & Debbie Heintz
>
> I doubt there's a Helicoil that will work for my problem. This is what
> the area around the hole used to look like:
>
>
> > This is a
> > very common problem according to my brother-in-law, a transmission tech
at a
> > Dodge dealership.
>
> So I guess the transmission tech that did the last fluid/filter change
> should have known to be more careful.
>
> >
> >
> > Tom Heintz "Mopar Maniac"
>
> Racer X
>
> 1984 VW Jetta Diesel GT
> 1992 Mazda Miata
> 1983 VW Rabbit GTI (ITB racer)
> 1988 Mazda RX-7 (Soon to be ITS racer)
> 1994 Caravan (need a VW Caddy so I can dump this POS)
> 1992 GMC Topkick (portable garage for racecar[s])
Sorry Racer X,
Looks like I should have read again before I posted. Looks like I
misunderstood big-time! I should know better than to post after working a
16 hr day. My apologies.
Tom Heintz "Mopar Maniac"
Mike Romain
If you had of had the same shop do the second change you could have some
recourse, but you did it yourself. That is one of the drawbacks of
doing your own work, lots of parts won't even be covered if they weren't
installed by a 'certified' installer....
I have worked on 'beaters' since the early 70's and have seen too many
to count with snapped or missing oil and tranny pan bolts.
Your solution of using the RTV has worked very well. There are enough
bolts in a pan usually to not matter about one not there if it is sealed
nice with RTV.
I mean, my head in my 86 CJ7 has two options for Plastic (go figure)
valve covers, one bolts all the way around, the other has two nuts up
top of rocker arm bridges torqued to 15 inch lbs and only a cork gasket
(I added a skim of RTV for insurance) around the edges, no bolts...
I have the 'no bolt' one on and it has been leak free for over a year...
The metal strap between the adjacent bolts would be extra insurance, but
I would wait for a seep of fluid before I bothered. Not likely in my
mind to ever happen.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Updated Jan. 18, 02.
5 Day Canadian Bush 2002 New Year's Jeep Run
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292141347
Spam Sucks
Use some kind of JB weld or Marine Tex around a helicoil or better yet
a Permatex insert for sparkplugs etc. Once that stuff gets hard, it's
like steel. Some kind of epoxy to steel strengh compound.
--
nos...@zero.com
VW 94 Jetta 2.0L (A3), 89 GTI 16V (A2)
H 81 CB-750C, 86 Civic 1.5Lcarb DX HB (GFs)
Replace nospam with jetta to reply via e-mail
Jonathan Ward
gasket cannot be made to seal minus the offending machine screw, try
1) making a "washer" from some approriately stiff flat stock, and put
a bend of 5 degrees or so in the center so it will bear on the point
of the missing screw, and install it between the two neighboring
screws. Or 2) weld up the area where the hole used to be, grind it
down, drill it out, and tap it for a new screw.
Option 3, the Gomer Pyle method, would be to apply a bunch of JB Weld,
install a Heli-Coil after it's set, and put the thing back together.
Properly done, this could last 20 years.
Mike Romain <rom...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3C5BCF7D...@sympatico.ca>...
Mike Graham
wrote:
>screws. Or 2) weld up the area where the hole used to be, grind it
>down, drill it out, and tap it for a new screw.
Option #2 would be a bit of a prick, I suspect, as assumably this is
not a cast steel object, otherwise it wouldn't have broken in the
first place. It's probably some aluminum/magnesium/pot-metal-du-jour
kind of thing, in which case building up a pile of weld would suck
rocks. Doable, sure, but not within the reach of Joe Lunchbox in his
garage.
>Option 3, the Gomer Pyle method, would be to apply a bunch of JB Weld,
>install a Heli-Coil after it's set, and put the thing back together.
>Properly done, this could last 20 years.
Epoxy putty was what I suggested before, and I think it would be
easier to work with than JB weld in this situation. No need for the
heli-coil, just pack the putty in there.
will yahon
fit through the pan drill the pan bolt holes out to match???????????
Stephen Bigelow
will yahon <dbr...@cac.net> wrote in message
news:3C5DB65A...@cac.net...
> why not retap the holes to the next size thread and if the bolts don't
> fit through the pan drill the pan bolt holes out to match???????????
>
Because there is no hole left to re-tap.
Edgar Montrose
Drive the vehicle.