driving with a bad lifter?
George
Per an earlier post, I have what seems to be a bad lifter. It hasn't
responded to my theraputic efforts. We've decided not to repair this,
given the general condition of the car and the cost of gaskets, etc
required to pull the head.
But, we need a car in the meantime - among other things, to go around
and look at cars to buy.
So, my question is, can we 'reasonably' continue to drive this, with the
bad lifter? It's an exaust valve. There's a lot of play in the rocker
arm - near 1/8", by my measure. With so much play, is the valve opening
sufficiently, even? (It doesn't seem to affect performance, AFAICT.)
2nd question: could it be driven if I removed both rocker arms from that
cylinder? Would this be less (more?) damaging that driving as it is
now?
Or any other thoughts.
Thank you,
George
aarcuda69062
George <gbec...@verizon.net> wrote:
> '99 Cavalier 2.2L.
>
> Per an earlier post, I have what seems to be a bad lifter. It hasn't
> responded to my theraputic efforts. We've decided not to repair this,
> given the general condition of the car and the cost of gaskets, etc
> required to pull the head.
>
> But, we need a car in the meantime - among other things, to go around
> and look at cars to buy.
>
> So, my question is, can we 'reasonably' continue to drive this, with the
> bad lifter? It's an exaust valve. There's a lot of play in the rocker
> arm - near 1/8", by my measure. With so much play, is the valve opening
> sufficiently, even? (It doesn't seem to affect performance, AFAICT.)
Yes, no, maybe...
There is no realistic way to predict what will happen when a known
failed component is allowed to operate in a failed state.
> 2nd question: could it be driven if I removed both rocker arms from that
> cylinder? Would this be less (more?) damaging that driving as it is
> now?
Two things will happen for sure;
1) The camshaft will kick the lifters out of their bore, oil pressure
will drop and odds are, the engine will fail rapidly.
2) The fuel injector will continue to deliver fuel to that cylinder,
eventually enough fuel will accumulate that the cylinder will hydrolock,
the fuel will wash the oil from the rings/cylinder bore and the engine
will suffer more catastrophic failure.
George
Well, (I thought) it kind of goes without saying that you'd unplug the
injector. And remove the push rods, though I didn't say that, either.
WRT the lifters being blown out, I was kind of thinking/hoping that the
'anti-rotation brackets' might retain them. I'd only seen a sketch of
these, so I don't know. However, the service manual says to remove the
bracket in order to replace the lifter.
G
Tegger
news:pdk7r5polrvc1o1dm...@4ax.com:
> '99 Cavalier 2.2L.
>
> Per an earlier post, I have what seems to be a bad lifter. It hasn't
> responded to my theraputic efforts. We've decided not to repair this,
> given the general condition of the car and the cost of gaskets, etc
> required to pull the head.
>
> But, we need a car in the meantime - among other things, to go around
> and look at cars to buy.
>
> So, my question is, can we 'reasonably' continue to drive this, with the
> bad lifter? It's an exaust valve. There's a lot of play in the rocker
> arm - near 1/8", by my measure. With so much play, is the valve opening
> sufficiently, even? (It doesn't seem to affect performance, AFAICT.)
You have GOT to have an illuminated MIL.
>
> 2nd question: could it be driven if I removed both rocker arms from that
> cylinder? Would this be less (more?) damaging that driving as it is
> now?
Why would you remove the rocker arms? You've got one happy exhaust valve
right now; why put it out of work? Are three quiet but lumpy cylinders
better than four smooth but noisy ones?
>
> Or any other thoughts.
If you currently consider the car as junk, and have AAA (and a cell phone)
for when it finally does crap out at an inconvenient place and time, then
driving it as-is is not a problem.
It all depends on your priorities, not on the car itself.
--
Tegger
Steve W.
Sounds like the valve inside the lifter has likely failed.
That engine has the rockers with the bolt going down through the support
boss to the head correct?
Not really sure of a fix for that other than a new lifter. You could try
a couple things, One would be to find a speed shop that has some lash
caps, these are caps that get put on the valve stem tips for various
reasons (stem material soft, roller tipped rockers, wear caps)
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=6_189&osCsid=f93010f24b785d984
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Lash-Caps/?keyword=Manley+Valves
The other would be to weld up the tip of the rocker arm that hits the
valve and grind it back to fit. Just make sure you polish it smooth.
Or a combination of the two.
Another way that might work would be to see if anyone makes an
adjustable pushrod that would fit in there. A few makes used them.
Pulling the rockers is a bad ides. The lifters need to stay in a certain
position in the bore to regulate oil flow in the engine. Without the
valve springs holding them down they can come out of the bore enough to
wipe out the oil pressure.
--
Steve W.
George
wrote:
>George wrote:
>> '99 Cavalier 2.2L.
>>
>> Per an earlier post, I have what seems to be a bad lifter. It hasn't
>> responded to my theraputic efforts. We've decided not to repair this,
>> given the general condition of the car and the cost of gaskets, etc
>> required to pull the head.
>>
>> But, we need a car in the meantime - among other things, to go around
>> and look at cars to buy.
>>
>> So, my question is, can we 'reasonably' continue to drive this, with the
>> bad lifter? It's an exaust valve. There's a lot of play in the rocker
>> arm - near 1/8", by my measure. With so much play, is the valve opening
>> sufficiently, even? (It doesn't seem to affect performance, AFAICT.)
>>
>> 2nd question: could it be driven if I removed both rocker arms from that
>> cylinder? Would this be less (more?) damaging that driving as it is
>> now?
>>
>> Or any other thoughts.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> George
>
>Sounds like the valve inside the lifter has likely failed.
>
>That engine has the rockers with the bolt going down through the support
>boss to the head correct?
Yes
>Not really sure of a fix for that other than a new lifter. You could try
>a couple things, One would be to find a speed shop that has some lash
>caps, these are caps that get put on the valve stem tips for various
>reasons (stem material soft, roller tipped rockers, wear caps)
>
>http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=6_189&osCsid=f93010f24b785d984
>http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Lash-Caps/?keyword=Manley+Valves
>
>The other would be to weld up the tip of the rocker arm that hits the
>valve and grind it back to fit. Just make sure you polish it smooth.
>
>Or a combination of the two.
>
>Another way that might work would be to see if anyone makes an
>adjustable pushrod that would fit in there. A few makes used them.
>
>Pulling the rockers is a bad ides. The lifters need to stay in a certain
>position in the bore to regulate oil flow in the engine. Without the
>valve springs holding them down they can come out of the bore enough to
>wipe out the oil pressure.
Thanks. That was very helpful.
George
hls
"Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in message news:hp1bh0$q98
> That engine has the rockers with the bolt going down through the support
> boss to the head correct?
I mentioned the old Pontiac engines that had these studs pressed in rather
than screwed in. Dont know how this car handles the issue.
Steve W.
It has each rocker on a separate shaft with a casting that mounts to the
head with a single bolt. Non adjustable. Just install the bolt and
torque it to spec. Most of the newer vehicles use similar systems.
--
Steve W.
George
>'99 Cavalier 2.2L.
>
>Per an earlier post, I have what seems to be a bad lifter. It hasn't
>responded to my theraputic efforts. We've decided not to repair this,
>given the general condition of the car and the cost of gaskets, etc
>required to pull the head.
>
>But, we need a car in the meantime - among other things, to go around
>and look at cars to buy.
>
>So, my question is, can we 'reasonably' continue to drive this, with the
>bad lifter? It's an exaust valve. There's a lot of play in the rocker
>arm - near 1/8", by my measure. With so much play, is the valve opening
>sufficiently, even? (It doesn't seem to affect performance, AFAICT.)
Further testing: I found a piece of (steel) flat stock, 0.1" thick, that
just fit between the rocker and the valve stem. With the engine off,
that made it tight. But, with the engine running, it's as noisy as
before.
So, among other things, it doesn't look like the lash cap would solve
anything. At the same time, does this tell me anything about where the
problem is? What I have is ...
- Much noise. Listening with a stick, it seems to emanate from that
lifter/push rod/rocker arm.
- The rocker arm has ~.1" of lash, with the engine off.
- The push rod is bringing oil up - possibly even more than the others.
- Taking out the rocker arm lash doesn't affect the noise.
After looking at some cars, the idea of replacing the lifter is getting
more appealing. But, I'm wondering if the problem may be more than
that.
Any insights would be appreciated.
Thanks,
George
Vic Smith
wrote:
Been through this a few times. My observations.
You have 3 choices.
1. Fix the engine. This is the choice that can be cheapest, but can
also be the most costly.
If its just a bad lifter, it could be a cheap fix. Make sure the cam
lobe isn't flat by measuring lifter movement before you open it up.
If the lobe is worn you're looking at even more work.
I've done a complete rebuild on a 352 and in parts it was the cheapest
way, but it cost me many hours of personal labor.
Then the shop that I sent the heads to did a bad job or no job on the
valve seals, so it sucked oil at high vacuum for the rest of its life.
Ran sweet, but I was young then. Wouldn't think of doing it myself
now.
In your case you'd have the same engine with the same miles and one
new lifter if that's all you have to fix.
BTW, I did the heads on a 350 with 90k miles once, and the mains were
gone a year later. Junked it
It's just a chancy proposition no matter how you look at it.
The most "worrisome."
Didn't look hard, but I think it's a long block for $1,695.29
If you pay a good mech to do the swap it'll end up costing close to 3
grand. But you'll have a 36 mo 100k mile warranty engine.
I did this once with a late 80's Chevy Wagon my big kid had.
The Goodwrench Olds 305 cost about $2200 and my mech's labor about
$1300, but he had a lot of cleanup to do because the old engine was
blowing oil like crazy. One of a batch had soft cylinder walls from
the factory. Only had about 65k miles on it.
Everything, including the 4-bbl carb was fouled up.
This was a very clean plush wagon, hard to find, so it was worth
replacing the engine to us.
Can't say that for a '99 Cavalier. You could find a good runner for
2-3 grand if you look around.
But if you really like a car and rust isn't an issue, a new engine is
the way to go.
3. Junk it and replace it. I've done that for most my cars that rust
or get serious engine problems. Had a '71 Chevy Malibu with a 307
that burned a valve. Car was otherwise fine, but I didn't like its
tinniness and never liked driving it, quick as it was. Didn't like
the color either. I just junked it. Might have been cheaper overall
to do the heads, but I hated that car.
Not an easy decision. Good luck.
--Vic
ps. The new 305 I put in the Chevy Wagon lasted about a month.
It was running fine.
Kid came out of his work teaching school, car was gone, Never found.
And no comprehensive insurance either.
Win some, lose some.
jim
Seems to me it is likely it is not a collapsed lifter, but it is pretty
hard to diagnose through some one else's eyes. Here's a question for you
- If you had a broken valve spring would you be able to spot that? How
about a stuck valve that isn't closing all the way? If that engine has
roller lifter it could be the roller or the bearing that is busted. You
should really get a good diagnosis before you wade in over your head.
-jim
cuh...@webtv.net
cuhulin
George
wrote:
>> Further testing: I found a piece of (steel) flat stock, 0.1" thick, that
>> just fit between the rocker and the valve stem. With the engine off,
>> that made it tight. But, with the engine running, it's as noisy as
>> before.
>>
>> So, among other things, it doesn't look like the lash cap would solve
>> anything. At the same time, does this tell me anything about where the
>> problem is? What I have is ...
>>
>> - Much noise. Listening with a stick, it seems to emanate from that
>> lifter/push rod/rocker arm.
>> - The rocker arm has ~.1" of lash, with the engine off.
>> - The push rod is bringing oil up - possibly even more than the others.
>> - Taking out the rocker arm lash doesn't affect the noise.
>>
>> After looking at some cars, the idea of replacing the lifter is getting
>> more appealing. But, I'm wondering if the problem may be more than
>
>Seems to me it is likely it is not a collapsed lifter, but it is pretty
>hard to diagnose through some one else's eyes. Here's a question for you
>- If you had a broken valve spring would you be able to spot that? How
>about a stuck valve that isn't closing all the way? If that engine has
>roller lifter it could be the roller or the bearing that is busted. You
>should really get a good diagnosis before you wade in over your head.
I'm pretty sure I'd recognize a broken spring, though I'll look again.
As for a stuck valve, ... I don't know that I've ever had one, but I
think I'd see something other than the noise. Engine power is normal,
no backfires (it's an exhaust), and we've driven it enough to get the
engine warm, so I think it would have burned?
Anyway, ..
After some more running with my 'shim' under the rocker arm, the lifter
tightened up. (!) (ie, the lash came out.) The noise was the same,
though - no magic.
It is a roller lifter. I can imagine that's involved; though, I can't
picture how to account for all the play that was in the rocker, and then
for that to go away, but still explain the noise.
As in my other post tonight, I think it's time to just let it go.
Thanks much to all who posted.
George
George
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Been through this a few times. My observations.
> You have 3 choices. ...
Thanks.
>Not an easy decision. Good luck.
Logic says, junk it - lots of rust. Would you pull the head without
getting it machined? Probably not, I'd guess. That would be the
clincher - I could maybe talk myself into gaskets & bolts, though the
car isn't really worth even that. Nor the time. Just for the rust,
we'd have to replace it before winter.
G
Sheila Johnson
i hear tapping in my chrysler 300 2011 dealers says 12 rockers and lifters
need replacing but the tapping seems to only be coming from 1 spot on the
right side
--
for full context, visit http://www.motorsforum.com/tech/driving-with-a-bad-lifter-91831-.htm