Why is Mobil oil so expensive?
Peter Jung
roughly 4 times as expensive as Castrol. Is the difference really worth
the extra expense?
eraser
synthetic boils at 550 F, while a Pennzoil non-synthetic 5W-30 boils at
>800F. Does this mean Mobil 1 will break down and turn into a gaseous form at 550 F while the Pennzoil will remain kosher up to 800 F?
Larry Smith wrote:
>
> Everybody has an opinion about this, but I have never seen any objective
> data that would convince me one way or the other.
>
> Mobil 1 is, by reputation, quite good. So are many of the petroleum
> lubricants.
>
> I don't believe in long oil change cycles though, and wouldn't buy a
> synthetic for that reason.
>
> Peter Jung wrote in message <39395E20...@hotmail.com>...
> >I went to purchase some oil for my car, and I noticed that Mobil 1 is
> >roughly 4 times as expensive as Castrol. Is the difference really worth
> >the extra expense?
--
---------------------------
charlie
era...@cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~eraser
Larry Smith
Magic2626
>>What's interesting is that according to Mobil 1's MSDS, the 5W-30 synthetic
boils at 550 F, while a Pennzoil non-synthetic 5W-30 boils at 800F.
Does this mean Mobil 1 will break down and turn into a gaseous form at 550 F
while the Pennzoil will remain kosher up to 800 F? <<
Pennzoil's web site lists ASTM D-92 440 F flash point and ASTM D-97 -44 F pour
point for 5W-30
Mobil 1 lists flash point at ASTM D-92 455 F and ASTM D-97 -65 F pour point for
5W-30
http://dallnd6.dal.mobil.com/GIS/MobilPDS.nsf/26b7c4b33367a4a086256665004e
4266/9337c5cedcf5e32e852567b60056db77?OpenDocument
http://www.pennzoil.com/coop_techdata/default.htm
http://www.pennzoil-quakerstate.com/techdata/l7_prodsheet_fs.htm
Larry Smith
Flash point is different from boiling point. There is not enough difference
between
440F and 455F to make any kind of significant conclusion about the value of
these numbers.
If the Mobil 1 boiling point is really 550F, then indeed the product will
vaporize quickly at that
temperature.
Boiling point of 800F for petroleum oil seems quite high.
Both boiling points, real or not, are far above the expected operating range
of engines
and I doubt there is much actual significance here either.
Magic2626 wrote in message <20000603221713...@ng-bd1.aol.com>...
Hoodoo
>>I went to purchase some oil for my car, and I noticed that Mobil 1 is
>>roughly 4 times as expensive as Castrol. Is the difference really worth
>>the extra expense?
You're just paying for their advertising campaign; the same way Miller
and Budweiser beer, and, Coca-Cola and Pepsi cost more to purchase
than most other brands. Don't believe the hype.
--
================
或螳或螳或螳或螳
ぉHoodooぉ
蠡蠡蠡蠡
Remove the obvious pest deterrent for personal replies.
Robert Hancock
all synthetics are quite a bit more expensive than conventional oils like
Castrol GTX (is that what the poster was referring to?). However, IIRC
Castrol Syntec isn't synthetic like the others are, it's just super-refined
conventional (sort of like Pennzoil conventional, I guess?) instead of oil
broken down into its most basic chemical components and rebuilt to the exact
specifications required. That should make it cheaper, but I don't think it
usually is.
There is a pretty big performance difference between synthetic and regular,
but in many driving conditions it's probably overkill.
--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hanc...@nospamhome.com
Home Page: http://members.home.net/hancockr
"Hoodoo" <hoodooB...@newnorth.net> wrote in message
news:393ce888....@enews.newsguy.com...
Magic2626
>vaporize quickly at that
>temperature.
>
>Boiling point of 800F for petroleum oil seems quite high.
>
Where do you find the 550 F and 800 F numbers? I can't find any mention of
'boiling point'?
"Flash point (Cleveland Open Cup) -- the temperature to which a combustible
liquid must be heated to give off sufficient vapor to form momentarily a
flammable mixture with air when a small flame is applied under specified
conditions. (ASTM Designation D 92.) "
Flash for Pennzoil 420 F Mobil 1 455 F [5W-30] and 473 F [15W-50]
So 35 F to 53 F difference....
Larry Smith
Then you will see where 'boil' came into the picture.
I know what flash point means. We seldom continue
flash point work over 200F, since for most purposes
it becomes a moot point.
In the case of automobile engines, one could always argue
that there is some danger of vapor explosion under extreme
conditions. I doubt there is really much to worry about though.
Magic2626 wrote in message <20000604034926...@ng-ck1.aol.com>...
Larry Smith
It is a way for oil and marketing companies to get their margins up higher
in an area where competition hasn't taken the bottom out of the market.
They are, in my opinion, overly hyped.
Everybody spends his money the way he feels best about it. And if it
makes anyone feel good to go the synthetic route, why not?
Under most conditions, I would prefer to buy the cheaper lubricant and
change
four times more frequently. (Very cold weather could be an exception.)
Robert Hancock wrote in message ...
eraser
sheets. Specifically I got them from the Vermont SIRI database.
Almost all of Pennzoil's new conventional products had a BP of >800F
according to their MSDS.
Larry Smith wrote:
>
> Seems to be conflicting data here.
> Flash point is different from boiling point. There is not enough difference
> between
> 440F and 455F to make any kind of significant conclusion about the value of
> these numbers.
>
> If the Mobil 1 boiling point is really 550F, then indeed the product will
> vaporize quickly at that
> temperature.
>
> Boiling point of 800F for petroleum oil seems quite high.
>
> Both boiling points, real or not, are far above the expected operating range
> of engines
> and I doubt there is much actual significance here either.
>
> Magic2626 wrote in message <20000603221713...@ng-bd1.aol.com>...
> >
> >>>What's interesting is that according to Mobil 1's MSDS, the 5W-30
> synthetic
> >boils at 550 F, while a Pennzoil non-synthetic 5W-30 boils at 800F.
> >
> >
> > Does this mean Mobil 1 will break down and turn into a gaseous form at 550
> F
> >while the Pennzoil will remain kosher up to 800 F? <<
> >
> >Pennzoil's web site lists ASTM D-92 440 F flash point and ASTM D-97 -44 F
> pour
> >point for 5W-30
> >
> >Mobil 1 lists flash point at ASTM D-92 455 F and ASTM D-97 -65 F pour point
> for
> >5W-30
> >
> >http://dallnd6.dal.mobil.com/GIS/MobilPDS.nsf/26b7c4b33367a4a086256665004e
> >4266/9337c5cedcf5e32e852567b60056db77?OpenDocument
> >
> >http://www.pennzoil.com/coop_techdata/default.htm
> >
> >http://www.pennzoil-quakerstate.com/techdata/l7_prodsheet_fs.htm
> >
--
eraser
considering Mobil 1 is supposed to last longer in race conditions and
such, but if it has a 250F difference in boiling points, wouldn't the
Pennzoil be better for racing and high temperature use? Or is there
another factor here? If so where can I find the stats on this?
Larry Smith wrote:
>
> Go back and read Erasers original post.
>
> Then you will see where 'boil' came into the picture.
>
> I know what flash point means. We seldom continue
> flash point work over 200F, since for most purposes
> it becomes a moot point.
>
> In the case of automobile engines, one could always argue
> that there is some danger of vapor explosion under extreme
> conditions. I doubt there is really much to worry about though.
>
> Magic2626 wrote in message <20000604034926...@ng-ck1.aol.com>...
> >>If the Mobil 1 boiling point is really 550F, then indeed the product will
> >>vaporize quickly at that
> >>temperature.
> >>
> >>Boiling point of 800F for petroleum oil seems quite high.
> >>
> >
> >Where do you find the 550 F and 800 F numbers? I can't find any mention of
> >'boiling point'?
> >
> >"Flash point (Cleveland Open Cup) -- the temperature to which a combustible
> >liquid must be heated to give off sufficient vapor to form momentarily a
> >flammable mixture with air when a small flame is applied under specified
> >conditions. (ASTM Designation D 92.) "
> >
> >Flash for Pennzoil 420 F Mobil 1 455 F [5W-30] and 473 F [15W-50]
> >
> >So 35 F to 53 F difference....
--
eraser
contains thousands of safety data for materials. When we take a
chemistry class at college we are familiarized with the MSDS, and it has
interesting info - like melting point, boiling point, and what to do in
case it gets into your eye or if you drink it accidentally.
If you are taking Flash Point into the picture then the Mobil 1 5W-30
has a flash point of 392 F, where'd you get 420F from?
The Pennzoil PureBase 5W-30 has a flash point of 420F. So far the only
specs that Mobil 1 actually has superior to the Pennzoil PB is the lower
melting point and pouring point - signifying it flows better in the
extreme cold.
eraser
PureBase 5W-30:
PureBase 5W-30 : Melting point, boiling point, and flash point (notice a
discrepancy between Pennzoil's # and this #)
http://siri.uvm.edu/msds/h/q427/q110.html
Mobil 1 5W-30: Mobil's MSDS database
http://emmsds.ihspsl.com/netacgi/nph-brs.exe?d=MRUS&s1=&s2=&s3=&s4=Synthetic&Sect4=OR&l=20&Sect1=IMGTXT&p=1&u=/msds/search.html&r=3&f=G&Sect3=MRUS
Larry Smith
They can give different results, so it is important to know which was used.
The MSD information also might be a bit different than would be on an actual
specification sheet. MSD information tends to be health and safety
oriented,
not always rigidly correct. (Sorry, guys..It's true.)
eraser wrote in message <393A00F0...@cybernex.net>...
Larry Smith
racing teams
that might entertain your question.
Racing engines do run hotter than ordinary engines, but they also use oil
coolers, larger
remote sumps, etc. Most races are so short that ordinary engine oil
consumption might
not be a major factor.
There will be vacuum on the crankcases of production cars and this will also
lower the boiling
point if you ever get anywhere near that hot.
eraser wrote in message <3939FFF1...@cybernex.net>...
Dick
http://web.hudsonet.com/~fedo/oil.html
Magic2626
flash of 399 F COC Method
Mobil 1 5W-30 was 600 F boiling and 420 F flash.
I don't know what that means for car owners.
Does a lower boiling point imply better heat transfer?
In this temperature range, is a higher boiling point better or worse for an
engine lubricant?
I thought that Oxidation, an increase in viscosity with heat over time, and
formation of coke or varnish were the main heat related problems for motor
oil.... and in all these areas PAO and Ester basestocks excelled.
eraser
of 392 F.
--
eraser
For instance, how would the boiling point on a safety sheet differ from
a spec sheet? Take at look at the links and decide for yourself.
Magic2626
can answer my questions.
In a practical sense , we are talking temps above flash point and well above
temps seen in automobile engines....except in certain localized hot spots.
I always thought that the problem with oil was that it had a problem with
oxidation and thickening or carbonizing with temperature.... and synthetics
typically outperformed mineral oil basestocks.
I also thought that volatility losses were 50% lower or better in synthetics...
a NOACK test.
Hoodoo
<hanc...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
>Mobil 1 isn't that much more expensive than any other synthetic brand, but
>all synthetics are quite a bit more expensive than conventional oils
It's still more expensive than "no-name" oils that possess equal
quality. The price of Mobil oil would be more realistic if the cost of
their advertising of it wasn't factored in.
>There is a pretty big performance difference between synthetic and regular,
>but in many driving conditions it's probably overkill.
I wouldn't disagree with that.
Robert Hancock
only meet SG standards for one..
--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hanc...@nospamhome.com
Home Page: http://members.home.net/hancockr
"Dick" <hrli...@att.net> wrote in message news:393A7CFD...@att.net...
Larry Smith
Often data on an MSD will be approximate. It is adequate to the purpose
of the MSD, but the company would not stand behind it as a standard
specification
for a contract, for example.
On oil cuts there may be an initial boiling point, followed by a
distillation curve. In this
case the initial boiling point may only apply to a very small amount of the
blend, while
you have to raise the temperature much higher to get a more complete
distillation.
I am not saying that the data is incorrect, but it must be interpreted with
a view to
the way these tests are performed.
eraser wrote in message <393A6D53...@cybernex.net>...
Saab85900
>quality. The price of Mobil oil would be more realistic if the cost of
>their advertising of it wasn't factored in.
Which "no-name" oils do you think pessess equal quality? I don't know of any.
And the Mobil 1 advertising is not costed against Mobil 1 oil--is comes out of
the deep pockets of general advertising for ExxonMobil. Before the merger,
came out of Mobil, and it took almost a generation of advertising to build a
decent market for a superior product.
Dick in Falls Church
Using and selling AMSOIL (First in Synthetics) over 22 years
Magic2626
boiling point was not relevant.
Chevron supported lower boiling point as associated with a phase change that
could take more heat out of a localized hot spot like a turbo or ring land.
All stated that synthetics were more thermally stable and had better heat
transfer properties ....so an engine could run cooler.
Mobil stressed the lower volatility losses [NOACK tests]....synthetics lose
around 8% to evaporation versus 25% loss with mineral oil.
Mobil also spoke of tests with a Buick Grand National Turbo motor run
continously on a dyno on a simulated hill with turbo engaged for the equivalent
of 25,000 miles non stop. With Mobil 1 there was no coking or failure, with
other oils they saw carbon deposits clogging oil passageways.
And Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 synthetic is still the unsung hero... the oil to use
in any gas or diesel engine under almost any operating condition due to its
viscosity at both temperature extremes, and its additive package.
At $6.00 /qt Delvac 1 costs more than Mobil 1 , and it is harder to find ....
but it is an oil worth looking at.
Philip
>transfer properties ....so an engine could run cooler.
>
>Mobil stressed the lower volatility losses [NOACK tests]....synthetics lose
>around 8% to evaporation versus 25% loss with mineral oil.
>
>Mobil also spoke of tests with a Buick Grand National Turbo motor run
>continously on a dyno on a simulated hill with turbo engaged for the
>equivalent
>of 25,000 miles non stop. With Mobil 1 there was no coking or failure, with
>other oils they saw carbon deposits clogging oil passageways.
>And Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 synthetic is still the unsung hero... the oil to use
My favorite 'fleet oil', followed by Shell Rotella-T. DelVac is easily found
at all major truck stops.
-Philip-
To those who kavetch, more
time is added to their lives.
Ray L.
check out this oil:
http://www.agromgt.com/online%20files/synopsis1a.htm
viscosity index 188
flash point (F) 467
4-ball wear 0.34 mm
and it's not amsoil
Magic2626
You want fries with that?
Actually this sounds like it deserves investigation. Motul makes 100% synthetic
100% Ester oils that are superior in many ways... and the raw material for
synthesis is coconut oil and other vegetable oil. This is why they cost oil
companies $8.00 a gallon or more before they formulate the finished lubricant.
So that $8.00 a quart oil has around $2.00 in basestock... before the cost of
additives, R&D, packaging, advertising, shipping, or profits.
Other synthetic basestocks are made from natural gas, and 'only' cost
$4.00/gallon.
And the new group III oils start as mineral and go through 1 to 3 rounds of
severe hydroprcessing with hydrogen and produce a very good and less costly oil
[$2.00/gallon].
-------------------------------------------
Agro Management Group, Inc
Synopsis of AMG 2000
PERFORMANCE OF 4-CYCLE LUBRICANTS FROM CANOLA
AMG 2000 was invented by accident over five years ago by Agro Management Group,
Inc of Colorado Springs, Colorado. Since that time Agro has proceeded with a
three-phase development plan: funding, testing and evaluation, and finally
commercialization. After securing the necessary funds to proceed with proper
testing and evaluation, Agro has logged over 20,000 hours of small, air-cooled
engine tests and 20,000 + hours and thousands of miles of vehicle tests on the
road. We are now prepared to enter the commercialization phase of our
development. We are focusing on large fleets in both the private and public
sectors.
· BIODEGRADABLE
AMG 2000 consists of a 100% vegetable oil blend that gives it the qualities of
a high performance motor oil and the characteristic of biodegradability.
· TOXICITY
Independent aquatic toxicity tests (Acute Rainbow Trout Test) show that AMG
2000 is 230,000 times less toxic than petroleum oil. The Massachusetts Hwy
Dept. has stated that they can only spill 5 gallons of petroleum oil before
they must call HAZMAT to clean up the site but can spill 50 gallons of
vegetable oil before it is considered an incident.
· RENEWABILITY
For every 100 acres planted to canola for producing AMG 2000, it reduced
imported oil by 174 drums of finished crankcase oil or 1,840 drums of crude.
C. E. White
>
> Saab85900 wrote:
> >
> > >It's still more expensive than "no-name" oils that possess equal
> > >quality. The price of Mobil oil would be more realistic if the cost of
> > >their advertising of it wasn't factored in.
> >
> > Which "no-name" oils do you think pessess equal quality? I don't know of any.
> > And the Mobil 1 advertising is not costed against Mobil 1 oil--is comes out of
> > the deep pockets of general advertising for ExxonMobil. Before the merger,
> > came out of Mobil, and it took almost a generation of advertising to build a
> > decent market for a superior product.
> >
> > Dick in Falls Church
> > Using and selling AMSOIL (First in Synthetics) over 22 years
>
> flash point (F) 467
> 4-ball wear 0.34 mm
>
> and it's not amsoil
But does it meet the SAE/API standards for SJ motor oil?
Regards,
Ed White