Dirty power steering fluid: This a scam?
m...@privacy.net
have the oil changed, they always check my power
steering fluid and come back with a "sample" of it in a
special device that sucks up my fluid in one side and
compares it to CLEAN power steering fluid in another
side.
I always tell them NOT to check any other fluids and to
only do the oil change but they present me with this
"finding" every time.... and show me how DIRTY my power
steering fluid is and asking if I want to change it
out.
Question: Is this a legit concern? Dirty power
steering fluid and should I have it changed?
Or is this some kind of scam?
Car is a 2000 Mazda Protege with 200k miles on it and I
am original owner.
Pete C.
It is a scam, however at 200k you should be changing it anyway. The
power steering system is a hydraulic system without a filter (just a
screen for big debris) and the fluid should be changed eventually to
remove debris. By contrast, the hydraulic system in your transmission
does have a filter, as does the lube/hydraulic system in your engine
(hydraulic lifters) and both of those systems also require regular
service.
Hal
> steering fluid and should I have it changed?
>
> Or is this some kind of scam?
>
it has not been done, I would certainly do so if it was my car.
If you decide to tackle it yourself an easy way to do it is to go down
to your local hobby store and pick up one of the handheld crank fuel
pumps they use for fueling up model airplanes. Use that to suction the
fluid out of the reservoir, then fill with clean fluid and start the
car and run the wheel back and forth several times to flush the new
fluid into the system. Then clear out the reservoir again and re-fill.
It may take 3-4 passes to get all of the dirty fluid out of the
system.
Good luck with it.
Chris
Nate Nagel
well, this is obviously extreme and anecdotal, but a friend of mine
bought a '62 or '63 Studebaker GT Hawk and one of the issues with it at
the time of purchase was that the power steering seemed to work
sporadically and not very well. After getting it into his driveway we
decided to flush the PS fluid before disassembling anything because it
was obviously very dirty/burnt. So we unhooked the return line and set
it in a bucket and filled up the reservoir with some fresh ATF. After a
couple cycles of filling the reservoir, starting the engine, and turning
the wheels side to side the fluid looked mostly clean. Reconnected
hose, filled reservoir, bled, and the steering worked fine after that.
So seriously ancient/neglected fluid *can* cause problems in and of itself.
In case anyone cares, this was the Bendix ram-type power assist, as used
on contemporary Corvettes and probably other GM products.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
jim beam
> When I take my car to local tire and car repair shop to
> have the oil changed, they always check my power
> steering fluid and come back with a "sample" of it in a
> special device that sucks up my fluid in one side and
> compares it to CLEAN power steering fluid in another
> side.
that particular sucking device is connected to your wallet, not your
power steering system.
>
> I always tell them NOT to check any other fluids and to
> only do the oil change but they present me with this
> "finding" every time.... and show me how DIRTY my power
> steering fluid is and asking if I want to change it
> out.
>
> Question: Is this a legit concern? Dirty power
> steering fluid and should I have it changed?
>
> Or is this some kind of scam?
my grandmother gets this, dirty fluid and all, even if she had it done
only 3k miles ago and the actual fluid in her car was perfectly clean 5
minutes prior. so yes, it's a scam.
however, there can be reason to change the fluid periodically. but
since disconnecting hoses can cause problems with seals, the preferred
power steering fluid change method is turkey baster. suck out fluid
from the reservoir, then replace. repeat after a week or so if feeling
anal. but it's not super critical since unlike a transmission, the
debris accumulation in the system is minimal, and it's not exposed to
external contaminants like engine oil. it doesn't even get that hot so
it doesn't break down, polymerize or oxidize. all you're doing by
refreshing some of the fluid is replenishing some of the seal
conditioners and changing the color slightly, so while [a safe] fluid
change doesn't hurt anything, it's not achieving that much either.
that's why it's not specified on the vehicle's service schedule.
>
> Car is a 2000 Mazda Protege with 200k miles on it and I
> am original owner.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
m6onz5a
At least they didn't ask to change your blinker fluid. :)
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6
E. Meyer
"m...@privacy.net" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
The simplest answer is to get out the maintenance schedule that came with
the car. If you find a service interval in it for the power steering fluid,
then follow it. My guess is that its not in there.
For my personal experience, I've only ever changed the power steering fluid
once in one car over 45 years of driving & that car then became the only car
I ever owned that developed leaks in the power steering system. If the
steering is working correctly, I would leave it alone.
Scott Dorsey
>I always tell them NOT to check any other fluids and to
>only do the oil change but they present me with this
>"finding" every time.... and show me how DIRTY my power
>steering fluid is and asking if I want to change it
>out.
>
>Question: Is this a legit concern? Dirty power
>steering fluid and should I have it changed?
Well, when did you last change it?
>Or is this some kind of scam?
>
>Car is a 2000 Mazda Protege with 200k miles on it and I
>am original owner.
If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the owner's
manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
jim beam
there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to change
power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't get
overheated.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Nate Nagel
It doesn't have as severe service as most other fluids, but it can get
contaminated by metal wear particles (mostly from the pump) and also can
become overheated from "assertive" driving (note inclusion of P/S fluid
coolers on high-performance and/or police package vehicles)
So, yes, I would change it on a "keeper" but maybe only when you change
the ATF etc. - it doesn't need to be changed every oil change, say.
Scott Dorsey
>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the owner's
>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>
>power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and doesn't get
>overheated.
It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule of my old
Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one. Always
follow the extreme service one.
jim beam
how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Nate Nagel
I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter which
one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.
There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the manual
says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.
jim beam
based on what dude? do you have hard data?
i hear that line all the time from people talking about engine oil [the
more you change it the better!!!], but they're always the ones who are
stuck in the 50's, superstitious, have never done any form of analysis -
either engine oil, or used parts - and have no data to back up their
claims. they probably still believe in santa claus too.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4291579733/
if anyone believes in santa, it should be the oil companies that spend
millions on research creating better products, then have consumers
ignore all their hard work and pay more to change their oil just as
frequently as they did before!
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Nate Nagel
I'm not saying that everything needs to be changed at 3K mile intervals.
I *am* saying that if you are like me and want your vehicles to last
several hundred thousand miles, there is no automotive fluid that has
been proven to my satisfaction to outlive the fundamental mechanical
parts of the car, when properly maintained. therefore, the small added
cost of changing some of the not-often-changed fluids every 50 or 100K
miles is negligible when weighed against the possible costs of a
premature failure.
Yes, I flush my brake fluid every two years as well, and *do* otherwise
follow the "severe service" schedule for my personal vehicles.
jim beam
determined how?
> to outlive the fundamental mechanical
> parts of the car, when properly maintained. therefore, the small added
> cost of changing some of the not-often-changed fluids every 50 or 100K
> miles is negligible when weighed against the possible costs of a
> premature failure.
>
> Yes, I flush my brake fluid every two years as well, and *do* otherwise
> follow the "severe service" schedule for my personal vehicles.
>
> nate
>
well, there /is/ a reason to flush brake fluid, hygroscopy, and that's
why it's in the service manual. but there's not much of a reason to
change power steering fluid [see above], which is why it's not.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Nate Nagel
Actually many new car manuals treat brake fluid as a "lifetime" fluid.
but I still change it anwyay because I understand the reasons why it
should be changed.
The same is true for ATF and power steering fluid, for reasons that I've
already explained.
The manual for my pickup truck I'm pretty sure recommends that the rear
axle gear oil be changed every 50K but only on the "severe service"
schedule. Obviously it's been changed, even though I don't figure that
my service is unusually severe.
nate
(in an ideal world, my car would have neither an automatic transmission
nor power steering, but this is not an ideal world.)
jim beam
unless you can enlighten me otherwise, the only one i'm aware of is
frod. and given frod's history of utter ruthlessness when it comes to
economics vs. engineering and driver safety, that's entirely unsurprising.
> but I still change it anwyay because I understand the reasons why it
> should be changed.
>
> The same is true for ATF and power steering fluid, for reasons that I've
> already explained.
atf runs hot, oxidizes and gets contaminated - for reasons /i've/
already explained. power steering fluid doesn't, or at least not to
anywhere near the same order of magnitude. just because the two systems
[on some cars] use the same fluid doesn't mean their operating
environments are comparable or that their service requirements are the same.
>
> The manual for my pickup truck I'm pretty sure recommends that the rear
> axle gear oil be changed every 50K but only on the "severe service"
> schedule. Obviously it's been changed, even though I don't figure that
> my service is unusually severe.
differentials, particularly if they're limited slip, are heavily loaded
and quickly fill with wear product. changing the oil makes sense if the
manufacturer hasn't taken any steps to control contaminant circulation,
and i'm not aware of anyone that has.
>
> nate
>
> (in an ideal world, my car would have neither an automatic transmission
> nor power steering, but this is not an ideal world.)
wow - that explains a lot!
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Hachiroku
You have to change PS fluid? Wow!
(My Hachiroku has 259,000 on it and has NEVER had a PS change! Shoot, it's
on the original clutch!)
--
It says Last...In...Kadora
Gimme that! "La Stinkadora"
Nate Nagel
And GM. Not sure about Chrysler, haven't had one.
>
>> but I still change it anwyay because I understand the reasons why it
>> should be changed.
>>
>> The same is true for ATF and power steering fluid, for reasons that I've
>> already explained.
>
> atf runs hot, oxidizes and gets contaminated - for reasons /i've/
> already explained. power steering fluid doesn't, or at least not to
> anywhere near the same order of magnitude. just because the two systems
> [on some cars] use the same fluid doesn't mean their operating
> environments are comparable or that their service requirements are the
> same.
Right, but some mfgrs. are listing ATF as a "lifetime" fluid now, and
even if the manual says that, I take it with a grain of salt. And PS
fluid *can* get wear particulates in it, and it can overheat if a
vehicle is driven "assertively." Also I believe I've already related
one anecdote where a vehicle that I had personal experience with had
"dead" PS come back to life after a simple fluid flush.
No skin off my nose if you don't change it, but to say that it's stupid
to do so is a bit of an exaggeration and not always true.
>
>>
>> The manual for my pickup truck I'm pretty sure recommends that the rear
>> axle gear oil be changed every 50K but only on the "severe service"
>> schedule. Obviously it's been changed, even though I don't figure that
>> my service is unusually severe.
>
> differentials, particularly if they're limited slip, are heavily loaded
> and quickly fill with wear product. changing the oil makes sense if the
> manufacturer hasn't taken any steps to control contaminant circulation,
> and i'm not aware of anyone that has.
True. yet again showing that what a mfgr. may list as a "lifetime"
fluid may still need to be changed periodically if one is shooting for
really high mileage out of one's vehicle.
>>
>> nate
>>
>> (in an ideal world, my car would have neither an automatic transmission
>> nor power steering, but this is not an ideal world.)
>
> wow - that explains a lot!
such as... I don't feel that I need 'em, and don't like extraneous stuff
that adds weight and requires maintenance?
nate
jim beam
ok, i've done some homework for you.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/procut02.htm
indeed, our responsible and technically competent domestics do not
recommend brake fluid changes. they do however support fluid condition
testing, which is actually ok and amounts to pretty much the same thing.
[engine oil change intervals, in the absence of analysis and testing,
is based ona schedule. if you have hard data from testing and analysis,
you can throw that schedule out of the window.
>
>>
>>> but I still change it anwyay because I understand the reasons why it
>>> should be changed.
>>>
>>> The same is true for ATF and power steering fluid, for reasons that I've
>>> already explained.
>>
>> atf runs hot, oxidizes and gets contaminated - for reasons /i've/
>> already explained. power steering fluid doesn't, or at least not to
>> anywhere near the same order of magnitude. just because the two systems
>> [on some cars] use the same fluid doesn't mean their operating
>> environments are comparable or that their service requirements are the
>> same.
>
> Right, but some mfgrs. are listing ATF as a "lifetime" fluid now,
some have been doing that for about 20 years.
> and
> even if the manual says that, I take it with a grain of salt. And PS
> fluid *can* get wear particulates in it, and it can overheat if a
> vehicle is driven "assertively." Also I believe I've already related one
> anecdote where a vehicle that I had personal experience with had "dead"
> PS come back to life after a simple fluid flush.
but yet again nate, it's not subject to /constant/ heating, or
/constant/ increases in wear product burden because it's not in a torque
converter, getting filled with clutch pack wear material, or combustion
product. lifetime on power steering fluid may not be infinite, but it's
easily up there with other sealed, low thermal load, low particulate
applications and we're looking at 10,000+ hours usage without change.
do the math on converting that to mileage, and you'll see why i'm saying
that without any hard data to the contrary, you're just voicing
superstition.
>
> No skin off my nose if you don't change it, but to say that it's stupid
> to do so is a bit of an exaggeration and not always true.
don't put words in my mouth nate - i never used the ones you just
attributed to me. read again back through the thread.
>
>>
>>>
>>> The manual for my pickup truck I'm pretty sure recommends that the rear
>>> axle gear oil be changed every 50K but only on the "severe service"
>>> schedule. Obviously it's been changed, even though I don't figure that
>>> my service is unusually severe.
>>
>> differentials, particularly if they're limited slip, are heavily loaded
>> and quickly fill with wear product. changing the oil makes sense if the
>> manufacturer hasn't taken any steps to control contaminant circulation,
>> and i'm not aware of anyone that has.
>
> True. yet again showing that what a mfgr. may list as a "lifetime" fluid
> may still need to be changed periodically if one is shooting for really
> high mileage out of one's vehicle.
but changing fluids based on superstition, i.e. one where you have
absolutely zero evidence to support some kind of schedule the
manufacturer does not state, and one for which you have no alternative
reliable authoritative sources information, makes no sense.
>
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>>> (in an ideal world, my car would have neither an automatic transmission
>>> nor power steering, but this is not an ideal world.)
>>
>> wow - that explains a lot!
>
> such as... I don't feel that I need 'em, and don't like extraneous stuff
> that adds weight and requires maintenance?
>
> nate
>
>
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Harry Face
in my Bonneville and there are no noises or steering issues..
harryface
91 Bonneville 322,655
05 Park Avenue 101,699