Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
Tero Patana
(Sorry for this being so long, but I'm trying to tell everything so you
can try to make the whole picture of the problem)
I have a Audi A6 1996 with 2.6L V6-engine, with hydraulic valve lifters.
The car has been driven for about 85k miles (<140k km)
One and a half week ago when I started the engine, there was loud clatter,
like when the valves don't work ok, but this one was _loud_, believe me.
The oil change was due in near future, so I booked time from local
repairshop for oil and filter change.
I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I bought the car,
I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil. I've only changed the oils once,
before this week.
The repairman said that the valve lifters need to be changed, as the noise
was too loud for normal operation.
So the valve lifters were changed, as well as the oil and filter.
And the noise didn't go away. Under the valve lifter gasket, there was lot
of ... something (not dirt, but something), so we figured out to try
engine flush and new oil change, if the something had clogged oil
journals (the oil channels are called journals, aren't they?) from other
V-branch. Also, when the gasket was removed, and the engine started, no
oil came there, just few drips from somewhere. So it seemed that the clog
in some journal stopped the oil from entering the valve lifters.
The flush seemed to do the trick, but when I had driven for few miles, the
clatter returned. Next day, I drove the car back. At first, the clatter
was there, but when I arrived at the repair facility, the engine was
quiet.
They did the engine flush again, along with the oil and filter change.
This time I drove around for 20 minutes nice and slowly, and engine seemed
ok. Just when I entered a freeway, the clatter returned. When I headed
back to the repair, the noise went away. I drove a little with higher rpm
(~3000 rpm), and the clatter returned, and when I drove more carefully, it
went away. For some moment, the clatter didn't return even with higher
rpm, but then with one faster acceleration, the clatter returned ok.
So it seemed when the rpm's were raised more than average, the clatter
came, and when driven slowly, it went away.
So what could be the problem?
I have been given thousands of hints, but not sure which one to try first.
One is the something in the engine, which might clog the journals again
and again. Several flushs might do the job, or maybe some other methods?
Can the over-pressure valve at the oil pump be defekt, so that it
starts to leak always when the rpm's are raised, thus negating the oil
pressure raise when accelerating? I suppose the oil pumps themselves
usually don't break down with this mileage, as well as they usually tend
to work better with high rpm's. The oil pressure light never lits, but can
I trust it?
Something wrong with the oil filter, or the interface between the engine
and the filter?
The rotating rod (shaft? cam shaft?) which moves the valve lifters, is/are
ok. What else should be checked before the engine is totally torn apart?
Hopefully someone has some ideas, any good advice would be appreciated.
-Tero
Tero Patana
> >From: Tero Patana tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi
> >Date: 4/27/04 5:46 AM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi>
> >
> >
> Theory time..........
> sounds like debris is in the oil pan and at higher rpms, the oil pump sucks at
> a greater volume and the debris clogs the oil pump strainer.
> Then the oil pump pumps less oil to the lifters and that noise develops.
>
This is very possible, I just wish this could be proven fact, and also
given a good solution to get rid of the debris.
> Testing time.......
> See if my theory is correct by installing an oil pressure gauge and observing
> readings while conducting the same high rpm tests.
>
This is one of the next things to try (I wonder why the repairman didn't
test this at first??)
> Or drop the pan to check and possibly change the oil pump.
>
I was told that this engine needs quite much labour (=cost) to open the
engine. So far, the costs have been quite nice, and almost nothing has
been done, so I wouldn't want to spend any more money at guesses. I wish
there was some way to make certain what is the problem.
> Are you using good oil filters?
> which brand?
>
Don't know, since the repairman has acquired them. Should be ok, but this
was one of the questions which I intended asking him next time I'm
visiting him.
One of the thousand quesses, was that if the filter has too small flow
holes (or what you call them?), then the oil flow "chokes" when it needs
to flow more. One quess, but I don't believe too much in this one.
-Tero
JP Roberts
either here or in the oil pump.
"Tero Patana" <tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi> escribió en el mensaje
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi...
Tero Patana
> Ever replaced the Belt and Belt tensioner?? I suspect your problem lies
> either here or in the oil pump.
>
Not sure about the tensioner, but the belt is changed 10k miles ago (~16k
km).
Can it be the pump, if the other V-brach works (or at least seems to)
correctly?
Steve Sears
Sounds like the "Orange Filter of Engine Death" to me - paper element cannot
handle the high oil flow and implodes - sucking chunks of paper into the oil
passageways in the engine. I've only heard of this with older 200/5000
turbo engines, but the filter that may have been the culprit was thrown out
with the oil/filter/lifter change, right? Unfortunately, the people who I
have heard this happen to have had to undertake a major motor rebuild to get
the fluff out of the system. When the engine was flushed, did you look to
see what came out in the flow?
Given that the engine is so new, and the onset of the noise so
instantaneous, it's a wonder why your repair guy didn't drop the pan - maybe
it's time to change the repair facility before they change anything else on
spec.
Cheers!
Steve Sears
1987 Audi 5kTQ
1980 Audi 5k
1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes
(SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)
"Tero Patana" <tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi...
JP Roberts
rpm - on my 1.8T, and it all disappeared when I had the belt, tensioner and
the V-branch pulleys replaced. Since your car has over 140 thousand km in
the counter, you should already have had those replaced quite some time ago,
so I'd suggest your doing this before any further attempts at replacing the
pump.
Also, since it seems to be the case that the noise occurs under engine
load - as you mentioned - this might indicate that there could possibly be a
bad belt tooth causing detonation because of excessive timing advance at
certain times when the bad belt tooth sent the wrong ignition timing.
Because it's a six cyl. power loss might not be so noticeable as it would on
a 4 cyl. engine.
My two cents,
JP Roberts
Tero Patana
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Steve Sears wrote:
> Tero,
> Sounds like the "Orange Filter of Engine Death" to me - paper element cannot
> handle the high oil flow and implodes - sucking chunks of paper into the oil
> passageways in the engine. I've only heard of this with older 200/5000
> turbo engines, but the filter that may have been the culprit was thrown out
> with the oil/filter/lifter change, right? Unfortunately, the people who I
> have heard this happen to have had to undertake a major motor rebuild to get
> the fluff out of the system. When the engine was flushed, did you look to
> see what came out in the flow?
I wasn't around when the engine was flushed, so didn't get to see the oil.
I guess that the filters aren't the cheapest around (nor the most
expensive), but I suppose I will ask the repairman about the filter. They
are experienced with Audis, so I assume they shouldn't have done a mistake
that stupid. I really hope this isn't the case, since rebuilding the
engine doesn't sound too cheap solution. In addition to stupid car tax
regulations here, there is some limits how costly repairs are reasonable
to do for cars that old.
> Given that the engine is so new, and the onset of the noise so
> instantaneous, it's a wonder why your repair guy didn't drop the pan - maybe
> it's time to change the repair facility before they change anything else on
> spec.
Around here, there's two choices. Either the local Audi dealer, which
costs like hell, or private repairs, which cost moderately cheaper, and in
fact, in many cases do better job than the dealer. This one seemed to be
better than average experienced with Audis, so I wish I could rely on
their expertise.
Thanks for the tips Steve.
-Tero
Tero Patana
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, JP Roberts wrote:
> I had some noise at tilt, and some detonation under load at around 1950
> rpm - on my 1.8T, and it all disappeared when I had the belt, tensioner and
> the V-branch pulleys replaced. Since your car has over 140 thousand km in
> the counter, you should already have had those replaced quite some time ago,
> so I'd suggest your doing this before any further attempts at replacing the
> pump.
>
Hmm.. given my great knowledge about English, what you mean with V-branch
pulleys? When I was talking about V-branch before, I meant the other half
of my V-engine. I recall 1.8T is not V, but straight.
But if the belt is changed under 16 thousand km ago, I suppose it
shouldn't be problem yet?
> Also, since it seems to be the case that the noise occurs under engine
> load - as you mentioned - this might indicate that there could possibly be a
> bad belt tooth causing detonation because of excessive timing advance at
> certain times when the bad belt tooth sent the wrong ignition timing.
> Because it's a six cyl. power loss might not be so noticeable as it would on
> a 4 cyl. engine.
>
What indicates that it is not timing nor ignition problem, is that when
they removed the valve lifter gasket, no oil came there when the engine
was running.
So most probably the problem is somewhere in the oil flow chain, the pump,
the filter, the journals etc... or maybe not :(
Any comments or suggestions are appreciated, since the real cause is still
unknown. I just personally suspect the oil flow chain.
Thanks for comments,
-Tero
Tero Patana
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, dave wrote:
> edited
>
> >From: Tero Patana tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi
> >> Theory time..........
> >> sounds like debris is in the oil pan and at higher rpms, the oil pump sucks
> >at
> >> a greater volume and the debris clogs the oil pump strainer.
> >> Then the oil pump pumps less oil to the lifters and that noise develops.
> >>
> >
> >This is very possible, I just wish this could be proven fact, and also
> >given a good solution to get rid of the debris.
> >
>
> get some oil pressure readings at different rpms and/or while that lifter noise
> is occuring
>
Just talked with the repairman, they had installed oil pressure gauge, and
measured the pressure while the problem was on. I don't know what the
readings were, but he said they were ok. If I talk to him again, I might
ask the readings, if he did wrote them down or is able to memorize them.
(Why I used _if_ instead of _when_ :) )
Next thing he suggested to try, is to open up the motor and try to find
what and where the clog is.
One guy suggested, that the... isolating thing between the engine and the
cover, which mostly keeps oil from spilling out, whatyoucallit?.... might
be worn so, that it partially blocks the oil journal. If the engine is
opened, it will be replaced the same time so it might correct the problem.
(or then again, it might not...)
Dave Baker
>From: Tero Patana tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi
>Date: 27/04/04 11:46 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi>
>
>
>(Sorry for this being so long, but I'm trying to tell everything so you
>can try to make the whole picture of the problem)
>
>I have a Audi A6 1996 with 2.6L V6-engine, with hydraulic valve lifters.
>The car has been driven for about 85k miles (<140k km)
>
>One and a half week ago when I started the engine, there was loud clatter,
>like when the valves don't work ok, but this one was _loud_, believe me.
>
>The oil change was due in near future, so I booked time from local
>repairshop for oil and filter change.
>
>I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I bought the car,
>I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil. I've only changed the oils once,
>before this week.
>
>The repairman said that the valve lifters need to be changed, as the noise
>was too loud for normal operation.
First mistake. Hydraulic lifters in overhead cam engines almost never fail.
Noise from that area usually means an oil pressure problem. However from the
garage's point of view they are relatively quick to change and a nice profit on
the parts. You want to be asking for your money back as the symptoms stayed the
same.
The diagnosis technique should be a no brainer. Fit an oil pressure gauge and
see if the pressure is within specs at all rpms. The oil pressure warning light
will only come on at a few psi (like 7 maybe) and is only there to tell you
your engine has just expired. If the pressure is fine then at least the bottom
end and pump are ok but maybe the oilway to the top end is blocked
The fact that your problem is intermittent and came on very suddenly points to
a blockage either in the oil pickup pipe in the sump or in the feed to the
head. Maybe bits of silicone sealant from the original assembly sqeezed into
the sump and found their way into an oilway. If the oil pressure is down then
first step is to remove the sump and check for a blocked pick up or other
debris, a sticking oil pressure relief valve and the pump itself.
Also remember without us being able to hear the noise it may not be a lifter
problem anyway. Something rattling against a cam belt cover perhaps or in the
exhaust system. Anyway, it's all speculation until the oil pressure is checked.
If the garage didn't do this as a first step then find someone else.
Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (www.pumaracing.co.uk)
I'm not at all sure why women like men. We're argumentative, childish,
unsociable and extremely unappealing naked. I'm quite grateful they do though.
Thomas Tornblom
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, JP Roberts wrote:
>
> > I had some noise at tilt, and some detonation under load at around 1950
> > rpm - on my 1.8T, and it all disappeared when I had the belt, tensioner and
> > the V-branch pulleys replaced. Since your car has over 140 thousand km in
> > the counter, you should already have had those replaced quite some time ago,
> > so I'd suggest your doing this before any further attempts at replacing the
> > pump.
> >
> Hmm.. given my great knowledge about English, what you mean with V-branch
> pulleys? When I was talking about V-branch before, I meant the other half
> of my V-engine. I recall 1.8T is not V, but straight.
>
> But if the belt is changed under 16 thousand km ago, I suppose it
> shouldn't be problem yet?
Did they change tensioner and idlers, and possibly the water pump at
that time? I have had the timing belt(s) changed on my 2.5tdi V6
recently, and I believe there were about four idlers and the
tensioner that were replaced at the same time, plus the water pump as
a precaution. The idlers alone were about EUR 550, and the waterpump
about 80, IIRC.
I doubt that this is your problem though.
>
> Thanks for comments,
>
> -Tero
Cheers,
Thomas
Tero Patana
> >Subject: Valve lifter problem? (Oil pressure? Journals? Oil pump?)
> >From: Tero Patana tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi
> >Date: 27/04/04 11:46 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi>
> >
> >was too loud for normal operation.
>
> First mistake. Hydraulic lifters in overhead cam engines almost never fail.
> Noise from that area usually means an oil pressure problem. However from the
> garage's point of view they are relatively quick to change and a nice profit on
> the parts. You want to be asking for your money back as the symptoms stayed the
> same.
>
I have to talk about this, now the first priority is to get the engine
fixed. It costed around EUR400 (500$), so have to check the final costs to
see if it's compensated anyhow.
>
> The diagnosis technique should be a no brainer. Fit an oil pressure gauge and
> see if the pressure is within specs at all rpms. The oil pressure warning light
> will only come on at a few psi (like 7 maybe) and is only there to tell you
> your engine has just expired. If the pressure is fine then at least the bottom
> end and pump are ok but maybe the oilway to the top end is blocked
>
The pressure has just been measured, and it's ok. So blockage is suspected
at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
future, to remove the blockage.
>
> Also remember without us being able to hear the noise it may not be a lifter
> problem anyway. Something rattling against a cam belt cover perhaps or in the
> exhaust system. Anyway, it's all speculation until the oil pressure is checked.
> If the garage didn't do this as a first step then find someone else.
>
>
The problem is around the lifters, since no oil comes there when the
lifter gasket was removed. The pressure is ok, and I (for now) hope that I
don't have to change mechanic (again). In here, it's not that easy to find
reliable repairshop, and this one has served me quite well on earlier
occasions. Seems that they haven't encountered similar problem before, or
at least I suspect, since they haven't yet pinpointed the cause for the
problems.
Thanks for the comments,
-Tero
Thomas Tornblom
> >
> >I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I bought the car,
> >I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil. I've only changed the oils once,
> >before this week.
> >
> >The repairman said that the valve lifters need to be changed, as the noise
> >was too loud for normal operation.
>
> First mistake. Hydraulic lifters in overhead cam engines almost never fail.
> Noise from that area usually means an oil pressure problem. However from the
> garage's point of view they are relatively quick to change and a nice profit on
> the parts. You want to be asking for your money back as the symptoms stayed the
> same.
Actually not at all uncommon with Audis. I have had a couple of Audis
with hydraulic lifters that started ticking at lower rpms shortly
after I bought the car and started using Mobil 1. I have only replaced
the lifters on one car though, which was really bad. I have also
seen/heard other Audis with *really* noisy lifters.
They have also started to leak at the front crank seal shortly after
switching to Mobil 1, which is why I now always replace the seal when
replacing the timing belt(s). Very cheap to do while replacing the
belt, very expensive to do when everything is in place.
Thomas
dave AKA vwdoc1
"Tero Patana" <tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Dave Baker wrote:
> >
> > The diagnosis technique should be a no brainer. Fit an oil pressure
gauge and
> > see if the pressure is within specs at all rpms. The oil pressure
warning light
> > will only come on at a few psi (like 7 maybe) and is only there to tell
you
> > your engine has just expired. If the pressure is fine then at least the
bottom
> > end and pump are ok but maybe the oilway to the top end is blocked
> >
>
> The pressure has just been measured, and it's ok. So blockage is suspected
> at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
> future, to remove the blockage.
I am with Dave Baker here.................
What are the readings at the different rpm ranges WHEN this noise is
experienced.
Oil pressure might be excellent at idle, but what about at higher rpm
levels, does it increase proportionately or actually drop down?
Ask your mechanic what the readings were/are so we can understand. And are
there two or only one oil pressure switch/sending unit on your engine? I am
wondering where he got the readings from and if he used a mechanical gauge
or electronic.
I have seen oil pressure so high (at idle and first start) that it cause the
lifters to pump up and the engine lost compression and stalled. Readings
are needed to help make diagnosis.
I have also fitted new oil pumps on engines with low oil pressure and the
old lifter clatter noise vanished!!
I usually work on 4/5 cylinder Audi/VW engines, so I am not too familar with
the V6 nor the VR6 engines. :-(
I have heard of oil passageways being clogged, possibly due to gaskets, and
causing oil pressure problems. Again I am not sure on your engine though.
Eyebrows are raised about your statement of finding debris inside of the
engine.
later,
dave
Dave Baker
>From: Tero Patana tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi
>Date: 28/04/04 12:18 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi>
>
>> The diagnosis technique should be a no brainer. Fit an oil pressure gauge
>and
>> see if the pressure is within specs at all rpms. The oil pressure warning
>light
>> will only come on at a few psi (like 7 maybe) and is only there to tell you
>> your engine has just expired. If the pressure is fine then at least the
>bottom
>> end and pump are ok but maybe the oilway to the top end is blocked
>>
>
>The pressure has just been measured, and it's ok. So blockage is suspected
>at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
>future, to remove the blockage.
Measured under what conditions? Just in the garage at tickover? If the noise is
intermittent then the oil pressure may be too. You need a gauge in the car to
be able to see what happens when the noise starts. Given the cost of garage
labour time and parts costs for trying random parts substitution at the owners
expense it would make sense to have a gauge mounted temporarily inside the car,
drive it for a bit and see what happens.
Nate Nagel
> can try to make the whole picture of the problem)
>
> I have a Audi A6 1996 with 2.6L V6-engine, with hydraulic valve lifters.
> The car has been driven for about 85k miles (<140k km)
>
> One and a half week ago when I started the engine, there was loud clatter,
> like when the valves don't work ok, but this one was _loud_, believe me.
>
> The oil change was due in near future, so I booked time from local
> repairshop for oil and filter change.
>
> I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I bought the car,
> I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil. I've only changed the oils once,
> before this week.
>
You drove the car 85K miles and only changed the oil once?
> Hopefully someone has some ideas, any good advice would be appreciated.
>
> -Tero
Um, I seriously hope that you bought this car used and have only had
it a couple thousand miles. I wouldn't leave *any* oil in an engine
longer than 10K miles, and I tend to change my own vehicles at 3-5K.
In any case, in response to your question, I'd be interested to know
actual oil pressure as measured at various places around the engine.
I dunno if you've got a sludge problem or actual engine wear, but I'd
be betting on one or the other.
nate
Tero Patana
>
> "Tero Patana" <tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi...
> > On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Dave Baker wrote:
> > >
> > > The diagnosis technique should be a no brainer. Fit an oil pressure
> gauge and
> > > see if the pressure is within specs at all rpms. The oil pressure
> warning light
> > > will only come on at a few psi (like 7 maybe) and is only there to tell
> you
> > > your engine has just expired. If the pressure is fine then at least the
> bottom
> > > end and pump are ok but maybe the oilway to the top end is blocked
> > >
> >
> > The pressure has just been measured, and it's ok. So blockage is suspected
> > at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
> > future, to remove the blockage.
>
>
> I am with Dave Baker here.................
> What are the readings at the different rpm ranges WHEN this noise is
> experienced.
> Oil pressure might be excellent at idle, but what about at higher rpm
> levels, does it increase proportionately or actually drop down?
>
Have to ask about this from the mechanic. Hopefully he'd known what he'd
done so far. I know that he said that the gauge pipe (or something) is too
short to be wired to the cabin, so he hadn't actually driven around.
But, if he said he did the measurement when the sound was on, then the
problem should have been seen also at low rpm, yes? As I think (with
what?), I suppose if the sound can be heard at low rpm, something is
blocking the oil from going to the lifters, so it it was pump problem at
high rpm, the sound should go away when the pressure rises. So it's not
pump problem, if my logic doesn't fail me.
> Ask your mechanic what the readings were/are so we can understand. And are
> there two or only one oil pressure switch/sending unit on your engine? I am
> wondering where he got the readings from and if he used a mechanical gauge
> or electronic.
>
I try to remember to ask these at next talk.
Thanks for comments,
-Tero
Tero Patana
>
> >
> >at the moment, and most prob the engine will be opened someday in near
> >future, to remove the blockage.
>
> Measured under what conditions? Just in the garage at tickover? If the noise is
> intermittent then the oil pressure may be too. You need a gauge in the car to
> be able to see what happens when the noise starts. Given the cost of garage
> labour time and parts costs for trying random parts substitution at the owners
> expense it would make sense to have a gauge mounted temporarily inside the car,
> drive it for a bit and see what happens.
>
The gauge had too short something, so it couldn't be fitted inside the
car, thus it wasn't driven around. The noise was there when the
measurements were done.
I'm slowly thinking about new cars, it's just the car tax in this happy
land that is something un-heard of.
Just glanced few prices, for example Chrysler Sebring Sedan with 2.7L V6
engine with automatic transmission, starting from 42k$, with better
features 45k$, and the convertible (2.7L w/ automatic) is from 63k$.
Take that! In addition to outrageous income tax (moderate salary gives
around 30% tax, _high_ salary from 50 to over 60%), who can afford new
cars here? Sometimes I wish I worked in better country...
Still, I hope the mechanic can found the real cause, or if he doesn't,
hopefully someone here can give the exact clue on what to check. Good tips
here for now, have to talk with the mechanic if some of them should be
checked.
-Tero
Tero Patana
> Tero Patana <tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.58.04...@paju.oulu.fi>...
> >
> > I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I bought the car,
> > I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil. I've only changed the oils once,
> > before this week.
> >
>
> You drove the car 85K miles and only changed the oil once?
>
It says:" I don't know what oil's there have been before, but when I
bought the car, I applied Mobil 1 0W-40 synthetic oil."
So I guess that could be read as if I don't know what oils the previous
owner(s) did use, but when I bought the car, I (almost) immediately
changed the oils.
> > Hopefully someone has some ideas, any good advice would be appreciated.
> >
> > -Tero
>
> Um, I seriously hope that you bought this car used and have only had
> it a couple thousand miles. I wouldn't leave *any* oil in an engine
> longer than 10K miles, and I tend to change my own vehicles at 3-5K.
>
Yes, I have driven now with this car almost exactly 10k miles, with these
oils 6-7k, as I said in the post, the oil change was due in near future.
The Mobil 1 recommends around here something like 6-7k change interval. I
also change filter every time when the oil is changed.
> In any case, in response to your question, I'd be interested to know
> actual oil pressure as measured at various places around the engine.
> I dunno if you've got a sludge problem or actual engine wear, but I'd
> be betting on one or the other.
>
I try to get that information. Could someone tell what is "sludge", since
my English-inHead-dictionary doesn't recognize that word, and my Webster
is at work. Engine wear shouldn't be the issues, since it looks to be in
good condition (AFAIK), if you don't look at the debris inside the engine.
-Tero
Nate Nagel
I think that what you are calling "debris" is what I'm thinking of as
"sludge." Catchall word for that black goo and/or hard crusty stuff
found inside an engine's oil system when something hasn't been right
with it.
nate
--
go dry to reply.
http://www.toad.net/~njnagel
dave AKA vwdoc1
>
>From: Tero Patana tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi
>Have to ask about this from the mechanic. Hopefully he'd known what he'd
>done so far. I know that he said that the gauge pipe (or something) is too
>short to be wired to the cabin, so he hadn't actually driven around.
>
>But, if he said he did the measurement when the sound was on, then the
>problem should have been seen also at low rpm, yes? As I think (with
>what?), I suppose if the sound can be heard at low rpm, something is
>blocking the oil from going to the lifters, so it it was pump problem at
>high rpm, the sound should go away when the pressure rises. So it's not
>pump problem, if my logic doesn't fail me.
Lifters will demand more oil pressure at higher rpms (they are doing more
work then).
So the oil pressure needs to be checked at different rpm levels since it
could be fine at low rpms, but not at high rpms. Please post the results!
thanks.
later,
dave
Tero Patana
I'm about to call the mechanic for update on my engine. First I need
estimation from someone outsider, for how much it takes to open and change
the other cover isolating device (what you call it?), if the other cover
has already been opened and the isolating thingy been changed.
Since all the common things have been already removed, I suppose it
shouldn't be that much extra work, but the mechanic estimated quite
surprisingly amount of labour for changing both, instead of one.
I'm about to get that information, but it wouldn't hurt if here someone
who has changed the thing in V-engine, told how much he estimates the
labour from professional mechanic.
JPF
both heads. Twice I have seen a problem with them. One fell out, it
was laying under the valve cover when I removed it. The other simply
stuck wide open, no pressure to the top of the engine, all the oil
blew out the valve. Both were a pretty cheap repair. Good luck.
Tero Patana
Ok, hopefully this is my final post around this issue.
I got the car back yesterday. The mechanic had opened the cover (gasket?)
of the non-oiled V-branch. The cover insulating-thingy (you haven't yet
told me the correct term for that part) has these holes in it, and then
there's this quite narrow bridge combining two of the holes. The mechanic
had found clog in that narrow bridge, and after replacing the thingy the
engine has been running perfectly. The clog was this black debris which
gathers in the engine if you don't rev enough from time to time.
So it seems, that now the engine is fine. I drove the car around somewhat
yesterday, and today to work, and I surely hope the failure doesn't come
back. One thing to notify, since the lifters have been changed, the engine
is more quiet than most of new cars I've driven. At traffic lights, with
neutral-gear on, I had to turn off all things including A/C+fan, and still
it was hard to hear if the engine was running or not.
As a pre-empitve strike, I suppose I should have the other V-branch cover
opened and the isolating-thingy replaced. I've been told that they should
be changed every 100k miles, and most of the cars around here are driven
at least 200k, many even 300-400k, so there's still plenty of changes in
the future to come.
I did ask about the oil pressure during the test, the mechanic said that
the pressure was around 5 bar (~73 psi) at high rpm. I guess this is ok
(or good?) result?
Finally I can continue enjoying driving nice car, and listening sound from
Bose-system. I've have had a little bad luck with previous cars, I hope I
can now rely on this car.
Thanks for everyone for comments, good to know that if there's going to be
any problems, I know at least one place where to look for expert tips.
BR, Tero
Thomas Tornblom
> Ok, hopefully this is my final post around this issue.
>
> I got the car back yesterday. The mechanic had opened the cover (gasket?)
> of the non-oiled V-branch. The cover insulating-thingy (you haven't yet
> told me the correct term for that part) has these holes in it, and then
Please explain where the "insulating-thingy" is located and how it
looks. Is it the rubber or cork seal that sits between the cylinder
head and the valve cover? That is a gasket ("packning" in swedish).
Cheers,
Thomas
Tero Patana
I suppose it's that cork seal between the cylinders and the gasket.
To make sure: It's about 30 cm x 12 cm (12inc x 4.5 inc), about 1 mm thick
(or 2), has three big holes for cylinders, and many smaller holes for
other channels, oil as a one (or more). I know what it is called in
Finnish, but that doesn't help you that much. I suppose direct conversion
from the Finnish word would become "Gasket insulator".
Steve
>
> I suppose it's that cork seal between the cylinders and the gasket.
>
> To make sure: It's about 30 cm x 12 cm (12inc x 4.5 inc), about 1 mm thick
> (or 2), has three big holes for cylinders, and many smaller holes for
> other channels, oil as a one (or more). I know what it is called in
> Finnish, but that doesn't help you that much. I suppose direct conversion
> from the Finnish word would become "Gasket insulator".
"Cylinder head gasket" or simply "head gasket" in American English :-)
Thomas Tornblom
That sounds like a head gasket. It's the thing that sits between the
cylinder head and the engine block and seals the combustion gasses,
coolant, oil.
like this:
Thomas
spare-me-spam
Now THATS different.
--
"Tero Patana" <tpa...@mail.student.oulu.fi> wrote in message
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