Engine paint on Muffler = No Rust ?? (question)
Brad Carlson
If engine paint can take the heat, why don't people spray it (or some-such
covering) on mufflers to retard rust? Chrome tailpipes are things of the
past... What am I missing?
*"Shaggy and Scooby go to the (haunted) kitchen; Thelma goes to the *
* library, and falls through the revolving bookcase. But where do Fred *
* and Daphne disappear to? They run in late with their hair messed... *
* Ever wonder?" *
St. Olaf College, Northfield, MN 55057 USA
Domain: carl...@acc.stolaf.edu UUCP: ..!umn-cs!stolaf!carlsonb
Stan Hanks
> Exhaust systems rust. Is there a way to (semi-)rustproof these parts?
> If engine paint can take the heat, why don't people spray it (or some-such
> covering) on mufflers to retard rust?
Well, a couple of things:
I have used engine paint with some success on mufflers for VW bugs and
Porsche 914's. But man it smells nasty when you first fire up the engine!
What I usually use for heat exchangers, and other larger more expensive parts
is either buy them in stainless steel if at all possible, or send them to
a flame-sprayed metal coatings place (see your Yellow Pages(TM) under "Metallizing" or "Metal Finishing") and have them aluminized -- coated with
sprayed aluminium. Works great. It's pretty cheap, too, on the order of
$40 for a pair of VW heat exchangers.
Stanley P. Hanks Director, Information Technology Planning and Development
Baylor College of Medicine, One Baylor Plaza, Houston TX 77030, Mail Stop: IR-3
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Lydia Gregoret
>> If engine paint can take the heat, why don't people spray it (or some-such
>> covering) on mufflers to retard rust?
Something I've always wondered (actually, only since our muffler rusted out
recently) -- do mufflers rust from the inside out or from outside in?
Combustion generates water. If the muffler is cool, this water may condense
some before getting out.
If mufflers rust from the inside out, then painting them won't do much good,
will it? Or will it? ? ? ?
Lydia Gregoret
greg...@cgl.ucsf.edu
Howzie Doodat
}Something I've always wondered (actually, only since our muffler rusted out
}recently) -- do mufflers rust from the inside out or from outside in?
}Combustion generates water. If the muffler is cool, this water may condense
}some before getting out.
}
}If mufflers rust from the inside out, then painting them won't do much good,
}will it? Or will it? ? ? ?
From what others have told me, a way to help prolong the life of your muffler
is to drill a small hole at the lowest point in the muffler so that water
from condensation will drain out. Well, I don't know if it works, but it makes
sense to me... (What the heck, it can't hurt)
-Rod "Dr. Oldsmobile" Rickenbach
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Bret Musser
>In article <13...@cgl.ucsf.EDU> greg...@celeste.mmwb.ucsf.edu (Lydia Gregoret) writes:
>}Something I've always wondered (actually, only since our muffler rusted out
>}recently) -- do mufflers rust from the inside out or from outside in?
>}Combustion generates water. If the muffler is cool, this water may condense
>}some before getting out.
>}
>is to drill a small hole at the lowest point in the muffler so that water
>from condensation will drain out. Well, I don't know if it works, but it makes
>sense to me... (What the heck, it can't hurt)
Just make the the hole is really small though --- else you'll be failing
inspection for having an exhaust leak... (some of those guys in NJ will
fail you even for the smallest little leak).
bjm
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"If you can count your money, you don't have a billion dollars." (J.P. Getty)
Mike Mahler
Mufflers/exhaust system rust from the inside.
Nicholas Heesters
Just buy some glasspacks. You won't have any rust problem
then.
NPH
Brent H. Besler
fireplace grill with a band of paint called "Hot Paint". It is suppoed
to take 1500 degrees F. It says that it may be used on exhaust systems,
engines, barb-q's etc. The only problem is stones, etc. will slowly chip it
off.
Walter A. Koziarz
>
[mention of drilling hole at lowest point of muffler deleted]
>
>Just make the the hole is really small though --- else you'll be failing
>inspection for having an exhaust leak... (some of those guys in NJ will
>fail you even for the smallest little leak).
>
car maker that does provide a weep hole in mufflers for the purpose of allowing
water to drain? Would they fail one of these cars despite the fact that the
hole is put there by the manufacturer? Not nit-picking; just curious. BTW the
hole is ~1/16" to ~1/8".
Who is this enlightened manufacturer? Chrysler, of course; they also use
STAINLESS STEEL for the entire exhaust system.
Walt K.
Calvin Sanders
I always painted the exhaust system on my Shelby GT350. It is a 1968 and the
original exhaust system lasted until 1984. The mufflers and pipes did actually
rust from the inside out. I would clean and repaint the system every 6 months
to a year. I did it mostly to make it look good not for anti corosion reasons
but they did rust out from the inside out. The mufflers had lost all of their
inside parts before the system started leaking. It sounded good just before
I replaced the system. The car had about 130,000 miles when the system was
replaced. I would always use a paint especially for headers that was supposed
to be much more heat resistant than normal engine paint. Eastwood Company
has a fairly new coating that is brushed on that they claim will last very
long on exhaust systems that my Father-in-law has used on the exhaust of his
Model A Ford with success so far.
Calvin Sanders
calvin@neptune
Ti Kan
>Exhaust systems rust. Is there a way to (semi-)rustproof these parts?
>If engine paint can take the heat, why don't people spray it (or some-such
>covering) on mufflers to retard rust? Chrome tailpipes are things of the
>past... What am I missing?
The problem with exhaust rust us that they usually rust from the *inside*
and work its way out. This is especially true of cheap mufflers (like
Midas, et, al.) Painting the outside is not going to help.
-Ti
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Peter Sheriff
Mufflers and pipes rust out from both inside and outside. Especially
where they use lots of salt on the roads in winter like they do here in
the Ottawa area.
You can't really do anything about the internal rusting but you
can use a high temp manifold paint on the outside. I tried this with
limited success. The paint eventually wore off the underside from being
sand/gravel blasted so it only lasted a few months.
Pete
Brent H. Besler
of stainless steel.
Calvin Sanders
>[mention of drilling hole at lowest point of muffler deleted]
>>
>car maker that does provide a weep hole in mufflers for the purpose of allowing
>water to drain? Would they fail one of these cars despite the fact that the
>hole is put there by the manufacturer? Not nit-picking; just curious. BTW the
>hole is ~1/16" to ~1/8".
>Who is this enlightened manufacturer? Chrysler, of course; they also use
>STAINLESS STEEL for the entire exhaust system.
That is interesting. In VA state inspection regs say "no" leaks int the
exhaust system. I was once rejected for a leaking header collector gasket
with no visiable leak except when the system was blocked you could see
the gasses leaking at the flange??????
Tim Bissell
rick...@freezer.it.udel.edu (Howzie Doodat) writes:
!From what others have told me, a way to help prolong the life of your muffler
!is to drill a small hole at the lowest point in the muffler so that water
!from condensation will drain out. Well, I don't know if it works, but it
!makes sense to me... (What the heck, it can't hurt)
My motorcycle exhaust has one of those holes drilled as standard, so Honda
believe that it works. I have on occasions seen water dripping out of it.
Tim
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Craig Donath
Okay, I'll bite. Why would the rust problem go away?
About the only real way to get around the rust problem is to go to stainless
steel. Unfortunately, stainless exhaust parts are REAL expensive and are not
available for every car on the road. Those of us who drive old junkyard dogs
have a better selection than folks with more contemporary rides. I can get
full stainless systems from a place called Zierden (Wisconsin, I think) that
cost about double what a plain steel system does. Well, that's not true, if
I want mufflers, they are more than twice the price.
Anyway, getting stainless pipes and using regular mufflers is probably worth
the expense. Once you do that all you ever have to fool with is the muffler
itself. The best part is that the old muffler will not have become one with
the rest of the system and is thus not too difficult to remove. No SawzAll
necessary!
I have had some luck painting my mufflers to retard rusting from the outside.
I use the stuff that's made for use on home cookout grills. This stuff is
available at any hardware store and is usually called Bar-B-Q Finish or
something like that. If you also take the time to paint any straps that go
around the muffler you can go a long way towards avoiding the creeping crud
rust that infects mufflers. Better yet, you can often fabricate stainless
straps from long stainless *hose* clamps. Seems to help a bit.
My dream is for someone, someday to come up with hi-temp plastic or composite
exhaust parts that will do for muffler work what PVC and ABS did for plumbing
20 or so years ago. Imagine going to the store and buying a length of 2 inch
plastic, some elbows, and a can of solvent-welding cement (with the brush in
the top even!), and maybe a *universal fit* muffler. Take it home, cut to
length with a hack saw or Ginsu knife, glue it together, and Presto!
Gee, seems like a market out there somewhere. (I'd buy THAT for a dollar...).
Anyone got any good ideas?
Craig Donath
Ron DeBlock
>If you want a "lifetime" exhaust system, you have to spring for the cost
>of stainless steel.
HAH! Come look at the "stainless steel" exhaust on my wife's '86 Golf.
The muffler, resonator and pipes are fine - the welds are all leaking.
The pipe/resonator weld has completely rusted apart.
Besides leaking exhaust, this car is also leaking oil (from where I don't
know) and coolant (time for new hoses). I used to own a '78 diesel Rabbit
that leaked exhaust, oil, coolant and diesel fuel. Guess these VW's are
just designed to leak!
Despite all that, I'll be buying a new Jetta (GLI, if my wife will let me)
in a month or so. I guess some of us will never learn.
--
Ron DeBlock N2JSO
r...@mtunf.att.com
!mtunf!rdb
raymond r rankins
>inspection for having an exhaust leak... (some of those guys in NJ will
>fail you even for the smallest little leak).
>
I don't understand what difference a small leak would make as long as
it was after the catalytic converter and didn't make the car violate
any noise regulations. How would a muffler have any effect on the
exhause emission levels? Sometimes these emissions regulations are
the most ridiculous things. I think most of them were designed and
created by/for the auto repair industry in an effort to generate more
business.
Ray
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<insert standard disclaimer here>
George J. Jefferson
>>inspection for having an exhaust leak... (some of those guys in NJ will
>>fail you even for the smallest little leak).
>>
>
>I don't understand what difference a small leak would make as long as
>it was after the catalytic converter and didn't make the car violate
>any noise regulations.
The problem with leaking exhaust is not emissions, it is safety. Exhaust
leaking even back at the muffler may tend to find its way into the car.
Who is to decide how much CO is toleable?
BTW at least those guys in New Jersey dont make a profit by replacing your
system. In PA they can fail you if the exhaust looks like it might start
too leak. (Unless your inspection guy specializes in brakes :-)
raymond r rankins
>>>Just make the the hole is really small though --- else you'll be failing
>>>inspection for having an exhaust leak... (some of those guys in NJ will
>>>fail you even for the smallest little leak).
>>>
>>
>>I don't understand what difference a small leak would make as long as
>>it was after the catalytic converter and didn't make the car violate
>>any noise regulations.
>
>The problem with leaking exhaust is not emissions, it is safety. Exhaust
>leaking even back at the muffler may tend to find its way into the car.
>Who is to decide how much CO is toleable?
Wouldn't the integrity of the car's body/underbody be more important to
exhaust getting into the car than a small leak in the exhaust system.
Even with a brand new exhaust system with no leaks that exited out the
back, I could still smell exhaust in my car while driving until I
patched all holes in the floor and trunk (it's a hatchback).
>
>BTW at least those guys in New Jersey dont make a profit by replacing your
>system. In PA they can fail you if the exhaust looks like it might start
>too leak. (Unless your inspection guy specializes in brakes :-)
But I'm sure somebody in NJ makes a profit and are probably backers of
the regulations. PA sounds as bad as Maryland. When I lived in Maryland,
I don't think I met anyone who had their car inspected who didn't have
to pay for a headlight adjustment.
These inspections can be a real racket. Fortunately, I'm living back
in New York and a friend of mine owns a garage and is a licensed
inpection station. He's honest enough that he won't pass anything
that is truly unsafe, but I can be sure he's not jerking me around
because he knows I'm going to do the work myself and he's not going to
make any money off me.
wfd0...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
/* Written by ran...@argentina.crd.ge.com in rec.autos.tech */
In article <91...@pt.cs.cmu.edu> b...@uther.camelot.cs.cmu.edu (Bret Musser) writes:
>Just make the the hole is really small though --- else you'll be failing
>inspection for having an exhaust leak... (some of those guys in NJ will
>fail you even for the smallest little leak).
>
I don't understand what difference a small leak would make as long as
it was after the catalytic converter and didn't make the car violate
any noise regulations. How would a muffler have any effect on the
exhause emission levels? Sometimes these emissions regulations are
the most ridiculous things. I think most of them were designed and
created by/for the auto repair industry in an effort to generate more
business.
/* End of text from rec.autos.tech */
Actually, a strict interpretation of the EPA regs. says that only truly
original equipment style equipment may be used as replacement parts. Their
claim is that the entire exhaust system is part of the emissions system since
any deviation in it would cause some change in backpressure, which would, in
turn, affect emissions in some manner. As a practical matter, of course,
similar parts are allowable.
So far as other things go, the rule of thumb is that you "can't make it worse."
(Assume vehicle of an age that it should have emission controls). then:
Car comes in with. . . . can leave with . . .
std. exhaust, cat. converter std. exhaust, cat. converter
std. exhaust, no cat. converter std. exhaust, w/ or w/out cat. conv.
and so forth. Duals (non-oe) can be replaced or upgraded to what should be
there.
Of course, this only works in areas without inspections, and I expect it to
change very soon. It is, however, from memory from a EPA publication a
couple years old.
So far as the later comment about exhaust gases getting into the passenger
compartment, on most cars that is hardly a relevent concern since the
muffler is typically mounted at the very back these days. Another 6 inches
cannot possibly make that much difference.
Walt (the former muffler guy) Dexter
wfd0...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
U. of Illinois