What have you learned in your old age that you feel should be taught to high school students?

[knuttle]

What have you learned in your old age about car and home repair
that you feel should perhaps be taught to high school students?

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <sqdged$rg9$1...@dont-email.me>,

knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>What have you learned in your old age about car and home repair
>that you feel should perhaps be taught to high school students?

Don't ever try to siphon gasoline with a vacuum cleaner.

My neighbor down the street attempted this and although surprisingly he was
uninjured, the car and garage were a total loss.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[rbowman]

On 12/27/2021 03:58 PM, knuttle wrote:
> What have you learned in your old age about car and home repair
> that you feel should perhaps be taught to high school students?

Car repair is a difficult question. Certainly how to change a tire and
replenish the fluids. I do my own oil changes but when I'm looking at
cars I make sure the filter and drain plug are accessible. This may not
be the case for some cars.

What should be a simple task like changing a burned out bulb may require
a youtube video these days. Counting the bikes I have three carburetted
vehicles but I'm not sure rebuilding a Carter or Mikuni is useful.
Diagnosing problems with the ignition system may be obsolete. The Toyota
doesn't even have ignition wires.

In many cases it's replace not repair. One of the Suzuki bikes has a
fairly conventional engine design but when it failed to start the trail
lead to the ECM. At that point you get on the net and hunt down a new
one. Not much you can do with a brick.

Except for the Harley I haven't had to mess around with brakes in 20
years and even them it was just new pads.

I've got a wealth of knowledge and even the tools to deal with a 197
Chevy Malibu but most of that is ancient history.

As for home repair, wiring, plumbing, general carpentry, and roof
repairing wouldn't hurt. For the latter, I recently learned cats can
climb aluminum ladders but can't go down them for sour owl shit. Damn
cat just had to see what I was doing.

I grew up in an older house so my first important lesson was nothing is
square or plumb. Plan on improvising.

[The Real Bev]

On 12/27/2021 02:58 PM, knuttle wrote:
> What have you learned in your old age about car and home repair
> that you feel should perhaps be taught to high school students?

That you can save a ton of money by learning to fix things yourself. We
didn't have the benefit of youtube videos for just about anything that's
broken -- we had to learn it the hard way.

My junior high (middle school now) required everyone, regardless of sex,
to take a semester of shop and one of home ec. Neither gave us any
actual useful knowledge (I made a wooden number thing for our house and
some really nasty chipped beef on toast), other than that we could
actually use tools and machinery to accomplish tasks. Good enough.

--
Cheers, Bev
"A complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
that the conspiracy is working." -- Tanuki

[Bob F]

On 12/27/2021 7:53 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 02:58 PM, knuttle wrote:
>> What have you learned in your old age about car and home repair
>> that you feel should perhaps be taught to high school students?
>
> That you can save a ton of money by learning to fix things yourself.  We
> didn't have the benefit of youtube videos for just about anything that's
> broken -- we had to learn it the hard way.
>
> My junior high (middle school now) required everyone, regardless of sex,
> to take a semester of shop and one of home ec.  Neither gave us any
> actual useful knowledge (I made a wooden number thing for our house and
> some really nasty chipped beef on toast), other than that we could
> actually use tools and machinery to accomplish tasks.  Good enough.
>

Like today, when my neighbor told me his kitchen faucet had no cold
water due to the cold blast we are in. I glanced at his house, and told
him the first thing to do is disconnect that hose from his frost free
hose spigot.

I then told him ways to get heat to the frozen pipe it attached to.

[The Real Bev]

I'm from SoCal. What are "frozen pipes"?

[knuttle]

On 12/27/2021 8:15 PM, rbowman wrote:

> Car repair is a difficult question. Certainly how to change a tire and
> replenish the fluids. I do my own oil changes but when I'm looking at
> cars I make sure the filter and drain plug are accessible. This may not
> be the case for some cars.

I would suggest "car understanding" more than perhaps "car repair", where I
would propose we teach all our high school kids the basics of the various
systems (cooling system, drive train, lubrication system, suspension system,
heater and air conditioning system, electrical system, etc.).

> What should be a simple task like changing a burned out bulb may require
> a youtube video these days. Counting the bikes I have three carburetted
> vehicles but I'm not sure rebuilding a Carter or Mikuni is useful.
> Diagnosing problems with the ignition system may be obsolete. The Toyota
> doesn't even have ignition wires.

I would suggest every child be provided an understanding of electrical
things such as electrical power generation & distribution, Kirchhoff's laws,
basic circuits such as those found inside the home, basic electrical items
such as those found in the home, the use of a DMM/VOM, etc.

> In many cases it's replace not repair. One of the Suzuki bikes has a
> fairly conventional engine design but when it failed to start the trail
> lead to the ECM. At that point you get on the net and hunt down a new
> one. Not much you can do with a brick.

The work is in debugging so I would suggest perhaps the children be provided
with the basic debugging skills of (a) understanding how the system works
and then (b) breaking the system down into testable components, and then
finally (c) isolating the broken component prior to replacement.

The replacement part of that task is the simplest of all in most cases.

> Except for the Harley I haven't had to mess around with brakes in 20
> years and even them it was just new pads.

I don't know if I'd teach them to do brakes even as brake pads, rotors, and
calipers are easy to replace (drums & shoes a bit harder but not by much).

But I'd teach them how the braking system works in a car which could save
their lives if they use that knowledge wisely over their next 60 years.

> I've got a wealth of knowledge and even the tools to deal with a 197
> Chevy Malibu but most of that is ancient history.
>
> As for home repair, wiring, plumbing, general carpentry, and roof
> repairing wouldn't hurt. For the latter, I recently learned cats can
> climb aluminum ladders but can't go down them for sour owl shit. Damn
> cat just had to see what I was doing.

I'd suggest a basic home systems understanding which might contain the
plumbing systems, the heating systems, the cooling systems, etc.

The entire class would be only a semester or two at most as the kids already
are filled with other classes but it would seem to be useful to all of them
even if only a few care about it at the time it would be taught to them.

> I grew up in an older house so my first important lesson was nothing is
> square or plumb. Plan on improvising.

Actually that's a good idea to teach them how to _measure_ things using
common measurement tools (plumb bobs, snapping lines, squaring corners).

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 27 Dec 2021 23:38:08 -0500, knuttle

<keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
>
>I would suggest "car understanding" more than perhaps "car repair", where I
>would propose we teach all our high school kids the basics of the various
>systems (cooling system, drive train, lubrication system, suspension system,
>heater and air conditioning system, electrical system, etc.).

When I was a fresman or sophomore in HS, my brother brought home Motor's
Auto Repair and told me to read it. I didn't read the parts about
repairing specific makes but I read all the rest except transmissions,
and that was a couople hundred pages iirc.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:53:20 -0800, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/27/2021 02:58 PM, knuttle wrote:
>> What have you learned in your old age about car and home repair
>> that you feel should perhaps be taught to high school students?
>
>That you can save a ton of money by learning to fix things yourself. We
>didn't have the benefit of youtube videos for just about anything that's
>broken -- we had to learn it the hard way.
>
>My junior high (middle school now) required everyone, regardless of sex,

Thatn's good.

>to take a semester of shop and one of home ec. Neither gave us any
>actual useful knowledge (I made a wooden number thing for our house and
>some really nasty chipped beef on toast),

That same radio show I told you about, about middle income women not
knowing how to use left-overs, said that a lot of people in the
depression ate chipped beef on toast.

>other than that we could
>actually use tools and machinery to accomplish tasks. Good enough.

Yes. Only one of my projects, in 2 years, was useful.

Our junior high only required the boys, 7th grade, wood and a little
electical shop**, 8th grade metal and a little printing.

**During the electic shop test, he asked why don't birds sitting on
power lines get electrocuted. I got it right, but he marked me wrong.
He said it was because the wires are insulated.

I made a shoe rack with square rods. My mother didn't like the round
rods they sold because the shoes fell off. She also wanted holes at the
ends for more air circulation -- I was going to make them the shape of
shoes -- but she didn't get the holes. She used it for 39 years and
since then I've used it. (Sort of. I store shoes on it and wear the
same shoes every day.) The one part that required skill, getting the
S-curve at the top of each end to match, I was going to make the S-curve
in between the two pieces with a jig saw so that they came out the same.
Instead of telling me to do it, he got impatient, cut the pieces along a
diagonal, put one on top of the other, and cut both curves at the same
time with a band saw.

In print shop everyone had to bring in a recipe (from his mother) and we
set the type and printed enough for iirc everyone taking print shop that
year, so we got a set of 3x5 cards with recipes to take home.

I was going to make a center punch, but I only got the knurling half-way
done, and none of the tapering. I'm sure I still have it. I use it as
a drift sometimes.

Oh yeah, senior year of HS, instead of taking 4th year Latin, Virgil, I
took auto-shop. Somehow I ended up on the best team. One guy actually
had maybe a hotrod, or maybe his father had a service station, and the
other guy seemed pretty smart too. Was going to be a chef. We took
apart an engine, but if we ever got it back together I don't know for
sure. Seniors got out of school a week or two early.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 27 Dec 2021 20:30:40 -0800, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/27/2021 08:09 PM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 12/27/2021 7:53 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>> On 12/27/2021 02:58 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>>> What have you learned in your old age about car and home repair
>>>> that you feel should perhaps be taught to high school students?
>>>
>>> That you can save a ton of money by learning to fix things yourself. We
>>> didn't have the benefit of youtube videos for just about anything that's
>>> broken -- we had to learn it the hard way.
>>>
>>> My junior high (middle school now) required everyone, regardless of sex,
>>> to take a semester of shop and one of home ec. Neither gave us any
>>> actual useful knowledge (I made a wooden number thing for our house and
>>> some really nasty chipped beef on toast), other than that we could
>>> actually use tools and machinery to accomplish tasks. Good enough.
>>
>> Like today, when my neighbor told me his kitchen faucet had no cold
>> water due to the cold blast we are in. I glanced at his house, and told
>> him the first thing to do is disconnect that hose from his frost free
>> hose spigot.

A friend bought a new townhouse in suburband DC, the Virginia side near
Dulles Airport, and the first winter a pipe in the kitchen froze and
burst. It was in an outside wall and the insulation was on the wrong
side of it.

>>
>> I then told him ways to get heat to the frozen pipe it attached to.
>
>I'm from SoCal. What are "frozen pipes"?

It's a lot like an ice cube, but long and thin.

[rbowman]

On 12/27/2021 09:38 PM, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 8:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Car repair is a difficult question. Certainly how to change a tire and
>> replenish the fluids. I do my own oil changes but when I'm looking at
>> cars I make sure the filter and drain plug are accessible. This may
>> not be the case for some cars.
>
> I would suggest "car understanding" more than perhaps "car repair", where I
> would propose we teach all our high school kids the basics of the various
> systems (cooling system, drive train, lubrication system, suspension
> system,
> heater and air conditioning system, electrical system, etc.).

You're right. I didn't even think at the understanding level. My early
experience involved repair usually. When the car overheats because the
phenolic impeller in the water pump detached from the shaft you learn
about cooling systems to say nothing of Chrysler's decision to use a
plastic impeller. Chrysler product also taught you not all threads a
right handed.

I'd guess the average high school kid knows as much about how a car
works as how their iPhone does. It's all magic.

[rbowman]

Those are those things that lead to burning the house down when you
slither into the crawl space with a propane torch.

SoCal isn't exempt. I forget which year it was but driving east from LA
I saw all the irrigation pipes at Rancho Cucamonga had turned into ice
sculpture. Even at Vegas the fountains were frozen.

[The Real Bev]

On 12/27/2021 09:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 09:38 PM, knuttle wrote:
>> On 12/27/2021 8:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Car repair is a difficult question. Certainly how to change a tire and
>>> replenish the fluids. I do my own oil changes but when I'm looking at
>>> cars I make sure the filter and drain plug are accessible. This may
>>> not be the case for some cars.

And don't buy the cheap Harbor Freight open ends no matter how pretty
they are. I broke one on a drain plug.

>> I would suggest "car understanding" more than perhaps "car repair", where I
>> would propose we teach all our high school kids the basics of the various
>> systems (cooling system, drive train, lubrication system, suspension
>> system, heater and air conditioning system, electrical system, etc.).
>
> You're right. I didn't even think at the understanding level. My early
> experience involved repair usually. When the car overheats because the
> phenolic impeller in the water pump detached from the shaft you learn
> about cooling systems to say nothing of Chrysler's decision to use a
> plastic impeller. Chrysler product also taught you not all threads a
> right handed.

An important lesson. We have two elderly Dodge vehicles.

> I'd guess the average high school kid knows as much about how a car
> works as how their iPhone does. It's all magic.

I was a girl in the 50s. My dad owned a couple of screwdrivers, a
hammer, a crescent, and a hose that could refill my bicycle tires from
the spare in his trunk. I knew NOTHING until I married a guy who grew
up having to fix everything -- when his car (gift from his grandma)
needed a new tire he picked one up from the vacant lot where people
threw old tires. He said he used five tires one day.

--
Cheers, Bev
"Let them eat shit."
-- Marcel Antoinette, Marie's little-known brother

[Michael Trew]

On 12/27/2021 23:38, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 8:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Car repair is a difficult question. Certainly how to change a tire and
>> replenish the fluids. I do my own oil changes but when I'm looking at
>> cars I make sure the filter and drain plug are accessible. This may
>> not be the case for some cars.
>
> I would suggest "car understanding" more than perhaps "car repair", where I
> would propose we teach all our high school kids the basics of the various
> systems (cooling system, drive train, lubrication system, suspension
> system,
> heater and air conditioning system, electrical system, etc.).

I agree, the only relative thing to share is how the basic systems work
now. I drive older 90's and back cars, where repair information can be
helpful. There are fewer and fewer automotive systems that you can
repair at home as cars get newer. Unless someone is working on a
classic car, most knowledge gathered over the years will do almost
nothing for cars from the past 10 years.

[Bob F]

SoCal? I guess it's what you get when you leave your bong in the freezer
too long.

[Bob F]

It hasn't stopped me from maintaining my own cars. Past knowledge
combined with new knowledge is all I need.

[Peeler]

On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 20:15:12 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Car repair is a difficult question.

Oh, no! It starts again!

<FLUSH another load of the resident gossip's endless verbose high-flown
senile crap>

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"My family loaded me into a '51 Chevy and drove from NY to Seattle and
back in '52. I'm alive. The Chevy had a painted steel dashboard with two
little hand prints worn down to the primer because I liked to stand up
and lean on it to see where we were going."
MID: <j2kuc1...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

...like blathering and gossiping in a self-admiring idiotic way on Usenet?

Eh, senile blabbermouth?

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 23:04:04 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Those are those things that lead to burning the house down when you
> slither into the crawl space with a propane torch.
>
> SoCal isn't exempt. I forget which year it was but driving east from LA
> I saw all the irrigation pipes at Rancho Cucamonga had turned into ice
> sculpture. Even at Vegas the fountains were frozen.

Do you get some sort of tiny senile climax every time you can hear yourself
talking like that, you weird narcissistic blabbermouth? LOL

[slate_leeper]

Critical Thinking!

Not just for repair. If you can understand and analyze what you hear
and read, you will have a tool useful for life.


-dan z-


--
Protect your civil rights!
Let the politicians know how you feel.
Join or donate to the NRA today!
http://membership.nrahq.org/default.asp?campaignid=XR014887
(use cut and paste to your browser if necessary)

Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

[Ed Pawlowski]

That car stuff can be hand buy out Junior year highs school English
teacher was more practical.
He came into class and said "close the doors" and proceeded to tell us
about VD and how to prevent it. Rather progressive in a Catholic school
in 1962.

[Scott Dorsey]

Michael Trew <michae...@att.net> wrote:
>
>I agree, the only relative thing to share is how the basic systems work
>now. I drive older 90's and back cars, where repair information can be
>helpful. There are fewer and fewer automotive systems that you can
>repair at home as cars get newer. Unless someone is working on a
>classic car, most knowledge gathered over the years will do almost
>nothing for cars from the past 10 years.

But that is the most important part. If you pull up the data on the scan
tool, you can see inside the engine of a modern car with much more detail
than you ever could with old cars. But you still need to understand what
all those plots mean, and that means understanding how engines work.

Learning on old cars is certainly useful, in that you get to do things
like make the mixture leaner or richer and see what happens. Then when
you encounter the same conditions on new cars you can say "the plot on the
computer says the engine is too lean but the exhaust smells like the engine
is too rich... something is wrong with a sensor somewhere."

[Scott Dorsey]

Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
>That car stuff can be hand buy out Junior year highs school English
>teacher was more practical.
>He came into class and said "close the doors" and proceeded to tell us
>about VD and how to prevent it. Rather progressive in a Catholic school
>in 1962.

It's true, a number of my friends got VD in the back of cars.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <j2vna8...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
says...

> You're right. I didn't even think at the understanding level. My early
> experience involved repair usually. When the car overheats because the
> phenolic impeller in the water pump detached from the shaft you learn
> about cooling systems to say nothing of Chrysler's decision to use a
> plastic impeller. Chrysler product also taught you not all threads a
> right handed.
>
>
>

Even tghe Chrysler lugnuts on one side was left handed and the other
right handed. Not sure if they are now or not as that was back around
1970 that I worked at Sears changing tires and plugs and simple things.

Now almost all new cars require very little for the first 50 to 100
thousand miles other than an oil change every 5000 t0 10,000 miles.
No more than I drive now it is just changed at the state inspection
time.

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 2:57 AM, rbowman wrote:

> You're right. I didn't even think at the understanding level.

That's where I'm leaning, which means the entire class can be taught inside
the classroom like most of the other classes are.

I would think there should be a chapter each on each "thing" kids need to
know about (perhaps homes, vehicles, measurements, debugging, PCs, etc.).

In each chapter I would think it could dive down into the "systems" involved
such as the cooling system for a car, or the plumbing system for a house or
the electrical system for a computer.

> My early experience involved repair usually. When the car overheats because the
> phenolic impeller in the water pump detached from the shaft you learn
> about cooling systems to say nothing of Chrysler's decision to use a
> plastic impeller.

Repair starts with debug.
Debug ends with isolation of the failed component.
But debug starts with understanding the systems & isolation of the failure.

Without understanding of the system, there's no repair possible unless we
teach the kids to just throw parts at the problem.

Admittedly, a _lot_ of cars are fixed by people throwing parts at them! :)

> Chrysler product also taught you not all threads a
> right handed.

My first Chrysler was a New Yorker which, as I recall, had reverse threaded
lug bolts on one side, but normally threaded lug bolts on the other.

Nobody told me this. After doing the one side, I wrenched off two or three
before I realized "something" was very wrong on the other side.

There were no "warning labels" in those days. :)

> I'd guess the average high school kid knows as much about how a car
> works as how their iPhone does. It's all magic.

This is a good observation, where we could add a systems approach to how
basic electronics work also (sci.electronics.repair).

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 1:13 AM, Michael Trew wrote:

> most knowledge gathered over the years will do almost
> nothing for cars from the past 10 years.

It's always depressing when I hear people say that.

Every single time I hear this I think of people who say they got cold from
being cold. It sounds like it would make sense. But it's dead wrong.

I hear these uneducated misconceptions in all sorts of related things, such
as people who claim that high test gas gives them better performance in
their pinto.

A car, like the human body or a home or even something as simple as a pair
of shoes hasn't fundamentally changed one bit since it's initial invention.

Almost _everything_ you learned about cars in the 40's applies to cars in
the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's, 2010's, 2020's, and beyond.

The drive train is the same.
The cooling system is the same.
The heating and air conditioning systems are the same.
The tires/wheels/valves/braking systems are the same.

Just about everything is the same.

What's different then?

We could probably list what's different on a short list but certainly the
spark control and timing has changed (anyone want a used dwellmeter unused
for decades?)

The fuel delivery has changed at the back end more so than the front end
(pumps moved from the engine into the gas tank but that's not a big deal).

Mostly what happened was stuff was added - but not very much of it.

Obviously the pollution control system was _added_ (e.g., EGR systems and
catalytic converters and oxygen sensors).

Also the electrical system has added components which are black boxes but
which don't change in any meaningful way how the car works.

It could be an interesting topic of what has _fundamentally_ changed such
that what you learned in the fifties is no longer useful - because I suspect
almost everything we learned about cars & home repair in the fifties is
still completely applicable today.

Anyone who says otherwise, IMHO, didn't learn anything way back when.
So, of course, if they learned nothing, then none of nothing is usable.

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 2:21 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> If you pull up the data on the scan
> tool, you can see inside the engine of a modern car with much more detail
> than you ever could with old cars.

I agree with those who would say not only have cars remained essentially
unchanged from what we learned about them in the fifties, but in almost all
cases they're even _easier_ to maintain now for a huge number of reasons.

We have better scanners now (such as OBDII).
We have better DIYs now (such as those on YouTube).
Some systems are far more reliable (such as the fuel & spark ignition).
etc.

Take the cooling system for example as a critical system which has remained
essentially unchanged. What has changed over the years? Not much right?
a. The system used to be open and now it's closed (no big deal)
b. The thermostat used to be mechanical and now some are controlled
c. The fluid used to be green and now we have blue & pink to deal with
d. That fluid used to be a concentrate and now it's often pre diluted
e. The tank ends (and nipples) are often plastic instead of brass
etc.

Those are all minor differences, right?

(One difference I remember is crimping corroded pipes inside the radiator
which I don't think anyone does today. Is that due to aluminum over brass?)

It's a good question to ponder though.
What has _changed_ since the cars of the fifties and sixties we learned on?

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 2:08 AM, Bob F wrote:

> It hasn't stopped me from maintaining my own cars. Past knowledge
> combined with new knowledge is all I need.

I agree that cars haven't changed mechanically all that much over time.
However it's an interesting question to ask what _has_ changed over time.

What's new now in a car of the 2000's that didn't exist in the 1950s?

[Ed Pawlowski]

My Karmann Ghia was like that to. Theoretically, it is a good idea but
in practice, never was a problem having both sides the same.

[Michael Trew]

Primarily Computers! Tons of computerized systems. Started with
electronic ignition in the mid 70's and they kept adding more electronic
systems.

I own 11 cars now, from the 60s/70's on up, and the only one that still
has points would be my '68 Ford Galaxie. I can work on all of them, but
the newest is right at the end of being too modern. Up until I bought
the 2005 Hyundai Elantra, the newest was a '94 Geo Metro. You can't get
more simple than the Geo for a 90's car that's easy to wrench on.

[Michael Trew]

Here is the issue that I have. There are too many things that have
changed. Look how tightly everything is packed into the engine
compartment. Nothing is easy to get to. My mother's newer Buick has
electronic power steering. How the heck does that work?

Many car makes are using the computerized systems to their advantage to
prevent backyard mechanics. Some newer cars like BMW's have to be
reprogrammed at a dealer when the battery is taken out. They just don't
work when connected back up. I was told that service can cost $400, and
it forces you to visit a dealer to buy a battery.

https://autovfix.com/bmw-battery-replacement-reprogramming-bmw-battery-registration-procedure/

What a wash! OBD2 can help with diagnosing some things, but all you
find now are more and more sensors. Sorry, in whole, I firmly disagree
that cars are getting easier to work on. It used to be straightforward,
but cars are designed to NOT be straightforward now.

[rbowman]

On 12/27/2021 11:10 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 09:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 12/27/2021 09:38 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>> On 12/27/2021 8:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Car repair is a difficult question. Certainly how to change a tire and
>>>> replenish the fluids. I do my own oil changes but when I'm looking at
>>>> cars I make sure the filter and drain plug are accessible. This may
>>>> not be the case for some cars.
>
> And don't buy the cheap Harbor Freight open ends no matter how pretty
> they are. I broke one on a drain plug.

I've never broken an open end but I approach Harbor Freight stuff with
caution. I stocked the tool tube on my V-Strom. They're a step up from
the Suzuki tools but if someone rips off the tube I'm only out about
$40. They are not the tools I use for working on the bike at home.

[rbowman]

The Toyota manual is pretty boring. Change the oil every 5000 miles and
rotate the tires. The 2007 version said to change the antifreeze at
50000 iirc but even that is missing in the 2018 manual. I run studs in
the winter so I count that as rotating the tires.

I bought the car in March of 01, CE (Covid Era) on the day this county
locked down. I even called the dealer to make sure they would be open
that Saturday. I noticed the odometer yesterday and it was up to 11000
something. The car will last forever at this rate.

[Ed Pawlowski]

The basic method of making power and getting it to the wheel for motion
is still the same but so much more sophisticated. So, you can get a
lesson in physics and mechanics but what else is of much value?

Is more than one out of 1000 ever going to change a fuel pump in the
tank? Those that have serious interest in the mechanics, like in the
past, will learn how to do it. I used to do 100% of my car repair and
maintenance. In the past 15 years or so, most I've done is add
windshield wiper fluid.

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 2:00 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> The basic method of making power and getting it to the wheel for motion
> is still the same but so much more sophisticated.

Is it really all that "much more sophisticated" such that you can no longer
understand it or fix it the way you used to understand and fix it before?

Take the basic method of "making power" for example.

It's a four-stroke engine (in most cases), just like it was before, isn't
it? It still has a spark plug (at least one per cylinder usually).
It still has a spark that ignites the fuel doesn't it?
It still has a stoichoimetric ratio of fuel to air doesn't it?
Even the fuel is the same fuel essentially (more detergents, less lead
perhaps, but it's essentially the same stuff as before isn't it)?
It still has valves (maybe more than before, but they do the same things).
It still has rings, doesn't it?
It still has a crankshaft, doesn't it?

As for getting that power to the wheels, it's true that many cars today have
the engine turned sideways, but even then it's still the same method of
driving the wheels as before only with one fewer change in direction for
most cars and with a couple added differentials for the more robust
vehicles.

> So, you can get a
> lesson in physics and mechanics but what else is of much value?

If you learned how the cooling system works in the fifties, how is it
different today?

If you learned how the engine worked in the fifties, how is it different
today?

If you learned how the starting & charging systems worked in the fifties,
how is it different today?

> Is more than one out of 1000 ever going to change a fuel pump in the
> tank? Those that have serious interest in the mechanics, like in the
> past, will learn how to do it.

I'm not advocating kids learn how to repair fuel systems in high school so
much as they learn how the fuel storage & delivery & vapor recovery system
works.

Same with the cooling system, the starting and charging system, the
suspension system, the drive train, and even the instrumentation (for
example, don't you think they should know the temperature gauge is
buffered?).

Everything they will ever need to do on a car follows from that
understanding.

> I used to do 100% of my car repair and
> maintenance. In the past 15 years or so, most I've done is add
> windshield wiper fluid.

Luckily with fuel injected cars and with electronic spark control, and with
cleaner gasolines, and with radial tires, and with corrosion resistant oils
and coolants, and with the almost universal advent of disc brakes, etc., the
maintenance on a car is easier now than ever before, isn't it?

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 11:41:25 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I've never broken an open end but

Good for you! And now just shut up!!!

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:

"I save my fries quota for one of the local food trucks that offers
poutine every now and then. If you're going for a coronary might as well
do it right."
MID: <ivdi4g...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 11:51:05 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> The Toyota manual is pretty boring.

Well, it certainly can't be as thrilling as your daily, wordy output on
Usenet, senile blabbermouth! <BG>

--
More idiotic senile gossip by lowbrowwoman:
"It's been years since I've been in a fast food burger joint but I used
to like Wendy's because they had a salad bar and baked potatoes."
MID: <ivdi4g...@mid.individual.net>

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 1:41 PM, rbowman wrote:

>> And don't buy the cheap Harbor Freight open ends no matter how pretty
>> they are. I broke one on a drain plug.
>
> I've never broken an open end but I approach Harbor Freight stuff with
> caution. I stocked the tool tube on my V-Strom. They're a step up from
> the Suzuki tools but if someone rips off the tube I'm only out about
> $40. They are not the tools I use for working on the bike at home.

On principle I've never been inside a harbor freight store (or Walmart) but
I do lately lament the loss of easy access to the Sears stores because all
my old tools are Craftsman tools.

What has replaced Craftsman for decent quality for the homeowner nowadays?

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 10:06 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 2:57 AM, rbowman wrote:
>
>> You're right. I didn't even think at the understanding level.
>
> That's where I'm leaning, which means the entire class can be taught inside
> the classroom like most of the other classes are.
>
> I would think there should be a chapter each on each "thing" kids need to
> know about (perhaps homes, vehicles, measurements, debugging, PCs, etc.).
>
> In each chapter I would think it could dive down into the "systems"
> involved
> such as the cooling system for a car, or the plumbing system for a house or
> the electrical system for a computer.
>
>> My early experience involved repair usually. When the car overheats
>> because the phenolic impeller in the water pump detached from the
>> shaft you learn about cooling systems to say nothing of Chrysler's
>> decision to use a plastic impeller.
>
> Repair starts with debug.
> Debug ends with isolation of the failed component.
> But debug starts with understanding the systems & isolation of the failure.
>
> Without understanding of the system, there's no repair possible unless we
> teach the kids to just throw parts at the problem.
>
> Admittedly, a _lot_ of cars are fixed by people throwing parts at them! :)

Debugging is more complex. My first go around was with my '82 Firebird
which was early in the computer controlled game. It would run fine,
stumble at odd and inconvenient intervals, and then run fine. Carb
problem. but what, with the oxygen sensor, etc. Of course, running down
the tree the measurements were on the low side of the acceptable range.
I finally pulled the carb. There was a solenoid controlled valve to
control the mixture. The problem was what looked like a little piece of
neoprene that would randomly hold the needle open.

I didn't feel bad as the guy running the project was having problems
with his Pontiac and it was in and out of the shop as they tried to
debug it. His son was the service manager so they weren't screwing him
over.

Another friend bought a Cadillac around the same time that also turned
into a shop queen. He went to visit the car one day to find all the
mechanics standing around poking at the computer like it had fallen off
a passing UFO.

>> Chrysler product also taught you not all threads a right handed.
>
> My first Chrysler was a New Yorker which, as I recall, had reverse threaded
> lug bolts on one side, but normally threaded lug bolts on the other.
> Nobody told me this. After doing the one side, I wrenched off two or three
> before I realized "something" was very wrong on the other side.
>
> There were no "warning labels" in those days. :)

It stimulated the market for replacement studs. Most of them did have an
L stamped on the end but who looks at the end of the stud when changing
a tire?

>> I'd guess the average high school kid knows as much about how a car
>> works as how their iPhone does. It's all magic.
>
> This is a good observation, where we could add a systems approach to how
> basic electronics work also (sci.electronics.repair).

We have a new library that finally opened after a year delay for the
virus. It has a large and well-equipped 'maker space' that I'm hoping
attracts at least some kids. There are several 3D printers, laser
cutters, work stations, 3D scanners and so forth. I think there is a
selection of Arduinos and rPis with peripherals too. The library also
subscribes to Make magazine.

https://makezine.com/

There a media labs and so forth for the kids that swing that way. The
opportunities are all there and free except for nominal charges for the
3D printer materials.

The question is what per cent of the kids will make use of it. I don't
have high hopes. Like it always was the smart kids will have a field
day. The rest will be watching TikTok videos and could care less. Like
Shaw said when defining 'horticulture', you can lead a whore to culture
but you can't make her think.

[Bob F]

On 12/28/2021 11:00 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>
> Is more than one out of 1000 ever going to change a fuel pump in the
> tank? Those that have serious interest in the mechanics, like in the
> past, will learn how to do it.  I used to do 100% of my car repair and
> maintenance.  In the past 15 years or so, most I've done is add
> windshield wiper fluid.

That fuel pump job was a job that ended up way more enjoyable than I
expected.

On my 3rd day of the project, after doing the analysis and parts
acquisition, I was trying to do the pump replacement in a mall parking
lot 30 miles from home.

I was in the process of lowering the tank to get access to the pump
installed into the top of the tank, when a very attractive young woman
stopped and asked me what I was doing. I explained, and she immediately
asked If I would like some help. After my comment that I appreciate the
offer, but I could get it done, she explained that she worked on cars
all the time and knew what she was offering.

She ended up under the car with me and did at least half of the work
involved in getting the tank out, removing the pump, installing the new
one, and getting the tank back into place. Her smaller and more nimble
hands were very helpful on some of the tricky nuts and connectors we had
to reach.

With the job done, she refused my offer of cash, accepted my thanks, and
went on her way.

Where was this woman when I was 30 years younger?

[Bob F]

Craftsman tools?

https://www.craftsman.com/

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 12:28:58 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Debugging is more complex. My first go around was

Oh, FUCK! The blabbermouth starts again...

<FLUSH the rest of the senile gossip's endless senile blather unread again>

--
Yet more absolutely idiotic senile blather by lowbrowwoman:

[rbowman]

Famous last words... Unless there's a specific scan code, is it the MAP,
the TPS, or the IAP all of which test out as barely within acceptable
limits. A friend was driven to drink, not that it was a long drive, by
an atmospheric pressure sensor VW saw fit to conceal in the door pillar
for reasons unknown.

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 12:43:40 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Famous last words... Unless there's a specific scan code, is it the MAP,
> the TPS, or the IAP

Ah!!! There they are again: your Capital Letters that you love so much,
bigmouth! LOL

[AMuzi]

As my generation dies, their children sell nice vintage USA
made SnapOn for pennies.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

Ahem.
That was the sainted Dorothy Parker.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 10:18 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 1:13 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>
>> most knowledge gathered over the years will do almost nothing for cars
>> from the past 10 years.
>
> It's always depressing when I hear people say that.
>
> Every single time I hear this I think of people who say they got cold from
> being cold. It sounds like it would make sense. But it's dead wrong.
>
> I hear these uneducated misconceptions in all sorts of related things, such
> as people who claim that high test gas gives them better performance in
> their pinto.
>
> A car, like the human body or a home or even something as simple as a pair
> of shoes hasn't fundamentally changed one bit since it's initial invention.
>
> Almost _everything_ you learned about cars in the 40's applies to cars in
> the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's, 2010's, 2020's, and beyond.
>

While I mostly agree

> The drive train is the same.

More or less. I certainly didn't grow up with transverse engine FWD
vehicles, CVT's and so forth.

> The cooling system is the same.

With the exception of temperature controlled electric fans that's true.
I still have moments of surprise when the car decides to turn its fan on
after I've parked it.

> The heating and air conditioning systems are the same.

At the 30.000' view. The heater isn't regulated by a push-pull cable
attached to a valve between the heater hose and the core. A friend was
lamenting that the climate control system in his new Jeep was integrated
into the infotainment module, aka radio.

> The tires/wheels/valves/braking systems are the same.

Again in the large view. The Toyota still has drum brakes in the rear
which is sort of retro otherwise disk brakes have taken over. One of my
bicycles even has disk brakes. I've got to say that's a step forward
compared to rim calipers.

But then you get into ABS, traction control, stability control,
collision avoidance, and all the other systems between your foot and the
brake pads. Luckily in my latest Yaris I can turn the traction control
off. Some genius finally realized that automatically braking a spinning
wheel when both are spinning means you're not going to rock your way out
of anything. I can also turn off stability control. They also realized
people who drive on dirt roads don't stay within the 'stable' envelope.

Then there is TPMS. My studs are mounted on rims without sensors so I
spend the winter ignoring the little lighted icon. Another icons was
flashing on acceleration and it took me a while to realize what it was.
Low washer fluid. I suppose I might have figured that out sooner or later.

The general idea seems to be to turn cars into sort of a terrestrial
AirCoupe (ErCoupe). The AirCoupe was a light plane that was designed so
you couldn't stall or spin it. The control surfaces didn't have enough
authority to get you into trouble. Except maybe on takeoff. Since you
couldn't get the nose up enough to stall, takeoffs tended to be very
leisurely.

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 13:33:12 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> While I mostly agree

While mostly nobody gives a shit what you agree with, you weird,
self-important senile blabbermouth! <BG>

--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>

[Scott Dorsey]

Michael Trew <michae...@att.net> wrote:
>
>Here is the issue that I have. There are too many things that have
>changed. Look how tightly everything is packed into the engine
>compartment. Nothing is easy to get to. My mother's newer Buick has
>electronic power steering. How the heck does that work?

You should read a book! The electronic power steering is very cool and it is
in fact pretty much like the hydraulic steering system except there's a
sensor and a servomotor instead of hoses.

Because there's a computer mediating between the sensor and the motor you
need to understand how to watch the data going through the computer controls,
but you CAN watch that, and much more easily than watching pressures at the
steering rack on that old Galaxie.

Everything being packed more tightly IS a problem, but by the same token we
also have better tools for getting into places than we ever had before.

>Many car makes are using the computerized systems to their advantage to
>prevent backyard mechanics. Some newer cars like BMW's have to be
>reprogrammed at a dealer when the battery is taken out. They just don't
>work when connected back up. I was told that service can cost $400, and
>it forces you to visit a dealer to buy a battery.

For the first couple of years until the people who make the scanning tools for
BMWs catch on and figure out how to emulate the factory tools, and then it's
just a matter of visiting your local independent shop with BMW tools.

The same thing was the case back in the sixties with special tools. At first
the dealer only had the tools, then a couple years later everyone had them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <sqg1hu$n4r$1...@panix2.panix.com>, klu...@panix.com says...

>
> Everything being packed more tightly IS a problem, but by the same token we
> also have better tools for getting into places than we ever had before.
>
>
>

Try telling that to the simple (spin off oil filter) new way Toyota has
for the oil filter change.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 11:01 AM, knuttle wrote:
> It's a good question to ponder though.
> What has _changed_ since the cars of the fifties and sixties we learned on?

Again it comes down to essentials and accidentals. An internal
combustion engine needs a fuel delivery system. In that sense nothing
has changed between carburetors and fuel injection.

You could argue that the Ram-Air FI on the '57 Corvette shows not much
has changed. While innovative, it was also finicky and a lot of them
wound up collecting dust when the owner went back to carburetors. FI
itself goes back to WWII. Carburetted planes don't do well flying upside
down as the Brits learned when going up against Messerschmidts with the
early Spitfires.

I think Chevy dropped FI after six years or so before revisiting it
sometime later. In any case I never played with FI. The Toyota and
V-Strom both are injected and they just work.

Ignition systems are similar. When I bought my first Toyota in 2007 I
assumed the plug wires were hidden under the plastic shroud on the
engine. Not so. There are individual coils on each plug fired by the
computer. I assume the plugs bear a resemblance to those used by my '51
Chevy but I've had no reason to snoop.

Like you I have a timing light and dwell meter in my museum. The timing
light is still applicable to the '86 F-150 but even it had a Hall sensor
driven electronic ignition. True, I did have CD ignition in my '60
Plymouth but I built it myself.

So essentially nothing has changed. However the technology has changed
considerably and is much more reliable but when things don't work it
gets interesting. On my '55 Harley the ignition system was simple,
points, manual spark advance, coil, wires, and plugs. Harleys
traditionally were wasted spark systems, so no rotor. It worked or it
didn't.

On my '98 Sportster, it was more like sometimes it worked, sometimes it
didn't. After going through the usual troubleshooting steps I went for a
novel approach, a can of freeze spray from Radio Shack. The culprit was
the Hall sensor on the end of the crankshaft. It would get hot at times
and fail open. When it cooled it worked again. That skill came from
debugging circuit boards, not working on cars.

[Jim Joyce]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 13:25:34 -0500, Michael Trew <michae...@att.net>
wrote:

>Many car makes are using the computerized systems to their advantage to

>prevent backyard mechanics. [snip]

>What a wash! OBD2 can help with diagnosing some things, but all you
>find now are more and more sensors. Sorry, in whole, I firmly disagree
>that cars are getting easier to work on. It used to be straightforward,
>but cars are designed to NOT be straightforward now.

The onboard computer can also help. I bought a used car in 2005 that was
seriously underpriced and at first I didn't know why. I initially
chalked it up to being a used Toyota on a Ford dealer's lot but I soon
discovered that the automatic climate control didn't work. All of the
manual controls worked, but who wants that.

Toy dealer quoted me $3400 plus labor to r&r the control unit, so I
passed. Internet to the rescue - there's a diag feature in all or most
of the computer-controlled vehicles that tells you what's wrong.* In my
case, it said the cabin temp sensor was not responding. I reached up
under the dash to disconnect the sensor so I could remove it for
testing, but I found that it was simply disconnected. That was all it
needed.

*For that vehicle, start with the ignition off. Press and hold 3 buttons
on the climate control panel, then turn on the ignition. The system does
a complete self-test and ends with a flashing numeric display. Cross
reference the number(s) being displayed and you have your fault(s). The
dealer wanted $240 to do that procedure, which could then be applied to
the final repair cost, but in the end it cost me nothing.

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 9:55 PM, rbowman wrote:

> On my '55 Harley the ignition system was simple,
> points, manual spark advance, coil, wires, and plugs.

In my humble opinion, almost nothing has changed in our lifetimes.
Nothing fundamental anyway.

For example what generates the electrical power on those bikes?

I've seen friends rebuild a rice-burner "alternator" whose field (B) current
was simply a ring of magnets connected to the engine crankshaft.

The magnets spun at engine speed inside a three-wire set of static coils.

Two coils were connected when the handlebar light switch was off (in the
days when there was a handlebar light switch anyway), three coils otherwise.

A voltage regulator hung on the three-wire output.

In essence, that's the same concept today (although with coils replacing the
[B] magnet) on most of our gasoline powered vehicles even today, is it not?

Those rice burners were only missing the battery charge "sense" logic.

[knuttle]

> The magnets spun at engine speed inside a three-wire set of static coils.

Actually the permanent magnets may have spun _outside_ the static coils.
I forget which - but the concept is the same either way - is it not?

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 7:08 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

> The biggest change??? Undoubtably it is Unleaded fuel. No lead means
> no phosphorous - which makes oi last longer. No lead makes plugs last
> longer. No phosphorous mkes exhaust last longer. No phosphorous makes
> engine internal parts last longer. No lead makes valves last longer.
>
> Add electronic controls and you get away from running too rich cold
> which makes EVERYTHING last longer. No carb and choke adjustments. No
> point adjustment or change. No timing adjustment. Now no plug wires,
> cap and rotor, distributor advance,
> Basically NO TUNE UP.
> No valve adjustment, no valve grinds, no re-rings or bearing
> replacements for the life of the car - which is a MINIMUM of 4 times
> what it used to be.
>
> That's the MECHANICAL end.
> Then we get to the bodywork Cars used to be rusted away junk within 6
> years. It was common to have competely repainted a car at least once
> in it's short lifetime. By 1971 my1963 Valiant had been repainted
> twice. It was not uncommon to have the transmission replaced or
> rebuilt before 60000 miles and replacing the exhaust was pretty much
> an annual occurence.

That's an interesting take on the biggest change being the loss of leaded
fuel. But didn't valve seats have to change in order to compensate for it?

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 11:03 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 2:08 AM, Bob F wrote:
>
>> It hasn't stopped me from maintaining my own cars. Past knowledge
>> combined with new knowledge is all I need.
>
> I agree that cars haven't changed mechanically all that much over time.
> However it's an interesting question to ask what _has_ changed over time.
>
> What's new now in a car of the 2000's that didn't exist in the 1950s?

Multiple microcontrollers on a CAN bus? A modern car is a textbook
example of distributed processing. By multiple I mean 50 to over 100 in
luxury cars. EV's need even more.

The price that's being paid is a global chip shortfall that's impacting
car production. It doesn't help that the industry has been consolidating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renesas_Electronics

Microchip's PIC series, Atmel's AVR, Intel's 8051, and Zilog's Z80
derivatives are also used.

Profits also factor in. When I was closer to hardware design the mantra
was 'Don't use Motorala'. There was absolutely nothing wrong with
Motorola's microprocessors and some were very attractive. However
Motorola's roots are in the automotive and radio industry. Design in a
68HC08 or 68HC11 part and if Ford ordered a few million parts you went
to the end of the line.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1991/06/11/Ford-Motorola-form-major-technological-partnership/5158676612800/

Even automatic transmissions, while still using planetary gears and
friction pads are in a whole new world. The new 10 speed designs by
Ford/GM and Toyota aren't your grandfather's Torqueflite. The
transmission control module is on the bus talking to a number of other
microcontrollers to decide which solenoid to energize. Dead TCM and
you've got a 1 speed.

Then there is the stuff that existed but didn't work too well. The idea
was there but not the technology. GM had the Autronic Eye headlight
dimmer one the '52 Cadillac. They messed around with it for six or seven
years but it was too erratic and they dropped it. Ford and Chrysler took
a shot with similar results. The dimmer system on my Toyota is good
enough that it dims the lights right about the time I would manually do
so, even when overtaking a vehicle.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 11:19 AM, Michael Trew wrote:

> On 12/28/2021 13:03, knuttle wrote:
>> On 12/28/2021 2:08 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>
>>> It hasn't stopped me from maintaining my own cars. Past knowledge
>>> combined with new knowledge is all I need.
>>
>> I agree that cars haven't changed mechanically all that much over time.
>> However it's an interesting question to ask what _has_ changed over time.
>>
>> What's new now in a car of the 2000's that didn't exist in the 1950s?
>

> Primarily Computers! Tons of computerized systems. Started with
> electronic ignition in the mid 70's and they kept adding more electronic
> systems.
>
> I own 11 cars now, from the 60s/70's on up, and the only one that still
> has points would be my '68 Ford Galaxie. I can work on all of them, but
> the newest is right at the end of being too modern. Up until I bought
> the 2005 Hyundai Elantra, the newest was a '94 Geo Metro. You can't get
> more simple than the Geo for a 90's car that's easy to wrench on.

I won't say replacing the serpentine belt on a Geo is difficult but it
is a bit tight. I had the 4 cylinder; maybe the 3 cylinder was roomier.

Interestingly, the home built airplane people love that engine. Light,
dependable, and cheap.

I liked the Geo enough that I looked at a Suzuki, but that was about the
time Suzuki automotive was going down the toilet. I've got a couple of
Suzuki bikes and that division is still going strong.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 11:09 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> On 12/28/2021 10:36 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <j2vna8...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
>> says...

>>> You're right. I didn't even think at the understanding level. My early

>>> experience involved repair usually. When the car overheats because the
>>> phenolic impeller in the water pump detached from the shaft you learn
>>> about cooling systems to say nothing of Chrysler's decision to use a

>>> plastic impeller. Chrysler product also taught you not all threads a
>>> right handed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

>> Even tghe Chrysler lugnuts on one side was left handed and the other
>> right handed. Not sure if they are now or not as that was back around
>> 1970 that I worked at Sears changing tires and plugs and simple things.
>>
>> Now almost all new cars require very little for the first 50 to 100
>> thousand miles other than an oil change every 5000 t0 10,000 miles.
>> No more than I drive now it is just changed at the state inspection
>> time.

> My Karmann Ghia was like that to. Theoretically, it is a good idea but
> in practice, never was a problem having both sides the same.

left handed? Oddly for a person of my generation I never owned a VW and
only ever drove on about 50 yards to get it clear of a loading dock. The
closest I came was an Audi.

I always wanted one. The concept appealed to me. Simple, cheap and you
could mix and match pieces and parts over a number of years when
American cars were changing every year. The New Beetle missed the cheap
part.

[rbowman]

Changing the fuel pump in my '86 F150 was easy :) However now I have
fuel up to the carb but it's no go again. I think the float is sticking
but I'll deal with that in the spring.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 12:22 PM, knuttle wrote:
> Luckily with fuel injected cars and with electronic spark control, and with
> cleaner gasolines, and with radial tires, and with corrosion resistant oils
> and coolants, and with the almost universal advent of disc brakes, etc.,
> the
> maintenance on a car is easier now than ever before, isn't it?

Takes all the fun out of it. I keep the old pickup around to have
something to fiddle with. I've even thought about converting it back to
points.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 03:02 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Michael Trew <michae...@att.net> wrote:
>> Here is the issue that I have. There are too many things that have
>> changed. Look how tightly everything is packed into the engine
>> compartment. Nothing is easy to get to. My mother's newer Buick has
>> electronic power steering. How the heck does that work?
> You should read a book! The electronic power steering is very cool and it is
> in fact pretty much like the hydraulic steering system except there's a
> sensor and a servomotor instead of hoses.
>
> Because there's a computer mediating between the sensor and the motor you
> need to understand how to watch the data going through the computer controls,
> but you CAN watch that, and much more easily than watching pressures at the
> steering rack on that old Galaxie.
>
> Everything being packed more tightly IS a problem, but by the same token we
> also have better tools for getting into places than we ever had before.
>

The Toyota is roomier than a Lincoln I had. The car was a huge beast,
but so was the 430 ci V-8. To make it really fun, the hood swung
forward. It also had suicide read doors. I guess they were trying to be
different. Most of the systems were vacuum controlled with servos
shoehorned into the damnedest places. It was a pleasure as it got long
in the tooth.

I'll admit when I'm looking at a new car I pop the hood to make sure it
isn't ridiculous to work on.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Left handed. Not lug nuts but lug bolts. always a PITA to get the
first one in.

[rbowman]

My Toyota has a spin on. I can reach down from the top to unscrew it.
(because when I put a new one on I don't bust a vein tightening it).
Sometimes I can get the new one started from the top too. I like Swix
filters because the threads are innies, so to speak.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 12:27 PM, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 1:41 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
>>> And don't buy the cheap Harbor Freight open ends no matter how pretty
>>> they are. I broke one on a drain plug.
>>
>> I've never broken an open end but I approach Harbor Freight stuff with
>> caution. I stocked the tool tube on my V-Strom. They're a step up from
>> the Suzuki tools but if someone rips off the tube I'm only out about
>> $40. They are not the tools I use for working on the bike at home.
>
> On principle I've never been inside a harbor freight store (or Walmart) but
> I do lately lament the loss of easy access to the Sears stores because all
> my old tools are Craftsman tools.
> What has replaced Craftsman for decent quality for the homeowner nowadays?

Walmart is my store of last resort that I may go into once a year. HF is
a block from where I work so I can examine the crap directly. I bought
an electric impact wrench to rebuild the forks. It worked and also saved
the day when The Amazing Hulk at the tire store put the lug nuts on when
I bought new tires. I got my money's worth.

A pancake compressor blew the guts out of the regulator on the second
use, but I replumbed it and it's still going.

I don't expect much out of their stuff so I'm not disappointed. The
drill bits suck but then so do the ones at Lowes or Home Depot.

Fortunately I've got enough Craftsman tools to last this lifetime but I
do miss Sears for that reason. K-Mart was carrying the line but they
tore that down and build a Cabellas.

I see a Mac truck around town. They used to be pretty good but I don't
know how they are now.

[rbowman]

I stand corrected. Shaw had some snappy quotes but that wasn't one of them.

"Discussing vaccination with a doctor is like discussing vegetarianism
with a butcher."

https://www.azquotes.com/author/13418-George_Bernard_Shaw

Apropos to some of the threads in this group...

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 21:38:22 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Walmart is my store of last resort

Yes, COOL! Thanks for the important info! And now shut your senile gob!

--
More typical idiotic senile gossip by lowbrowwoman:

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 21:10:41 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> left handed? Oddly for a person of my generation I never owned a VW

Good grief! What the FUCK is WRONG with you, you endlessly prattling senile
gossip? Don't you want to post the list of your medications here, so people
can get a clue?

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 21:50:02 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I stand corrected.

Corrected ...but still blabbering in your bigmouthed manner!

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 21:04:07 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> I won't say

Oh, the IRONY! LOL

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"My family loaded me into a '51 Chevy and drove from NY to Seattle and
back in '52. I'm alive. The Chevy had a painted steel dashboard with two
little hand prints worn down to the primer because I liked to stand up
and lean on it to see where we were going."
MID: <j2kuc1...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 20:58:45 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Multiple microcontrollers on a CAN bus? A modern car is a textbook
> example of distributed processing.

Your posts are a textbook example of a neurotic high-faluting bigmouthed
senile Yankietard, senile gossip.

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:

"I save my fries quota for one of the local food trucks that offers
poutine every now and then. If you're going for a coronary might as well
do it right."
MID: <ivdi4g...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 21:18:03 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Takes all the fun out of it. I keep the old pickup around to have
> something to fiddle with. I've even thought about converting it back to
> points.

That, TOO, goes to show what a COOL great individual you are! Just like
everything you post! Innit, bigmouth? LMAO

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 21:14:31 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Changing the fuel pump in my '86 F150 was easy :)

Nothing comes as easily to you as bullshitting happily away in your known
high-faluting manner, senile bigmouth! <G>

--
More idiotic senile gossip by lowbrowwoman:

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 21:27:30 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> My Toyota has a spin on. I can reach down from the top to unscrew it.
> (because when I put a new one on I don't bust a vein tightening it).
> Sometimes I can get the new one started from the top too. I like Swix
> filters because the threads are innies, so to speak.

So to speak, it's obvious that you simply LOVE to hear yourself talking,
senile blabbermouth.

--
Yet more absolutely idiotic senile blather by lowbrowwoman:

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 21:24:41 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> The Toyota is roomier than a Lincoln I had. The car was a huge beast,
> but so was the 430 ci V-8. To make it really fun, the hood swung
> forward. It also had suicide read doors. I guess they were trying to be
> different. Most of the systems were vacuum controlled with servos
> shoehorned into the damnedest places. It was a pleasure as it got long
> in the tooth.
>
> I'll admit when I'm looking at a new car I pop the hood to make sure it
> isn't ridiculous to work on.

Thrilling exciting story as usual, you weirdest ridiculous senile Yankee
drama queen.

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:

[Peeler]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2021 19:55:16 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

> Again it comes down to essentials and accidentals. An internal
> combustion engine needs a fuel delivery system. In that sense nothing
> has changed between carburetors and fuel injection.

I believe you need a big muzzle put over your big mouth, senile
blabbermouth.

[knuttle]

On 12/29/2021 12:38 AM, rbowman wrote:

> Fortunately I've got enough Craftsman tools to last this lifetime but I
> do miss Sears for that reason.

You seem to understand more than most people here do so I'm going to ask a
question of you that you don't need to look up - just let me know if you
already know the answer to the question from your own experience.

Craftsman only warranted the "hand" tools for life, which almost never break
(unless you abuse them like by using a flathead screwdriver as a pry bar).

The screwdrivers do wear out a bit (especially the Phillips & Reed ones).

Unfortunately for me I do have a Craftsman ratchet that is sketchy. I'm sure
something inside is worn or out of place. Do you know if it's even possible
to get them replaced nowadays (perhaps by mailing them in to someone)?

If you don't know offhand, don't look it up for me. I can look it up.
But if you do know, then just let me and everyone else know what you know.

[knuttle]

On 12/29/2021 3:12 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:

> Lug BOLTS on the early Mopars too Conversion studs were available -
> put them in with extra strength loc-tite and use nuts from then on.
> Required to install many of the "mag" wheels available in the 60s and
> 70s that used shouldered nuts.

Obviously both the lug bolts and lug nuts would need the same threading.

I broke a few of those reverse-threaded lug bolts on those Chryslers simply
because I was unaware that one side was different from the other.

IT was a foreign concept to me at that time that there would be no obvious
warning in that you were simply expected to either know the difference, or
you were expected to figure it out (even if it was the first
reverse-threaded bolt you'd ever encountered in your life).

I was ignorant.
Luckily, ignorance can be cured quite quickly (nearly instantly, in fact).

I didn't use loctite (nor did I likely even know about it in those days) but
what I loved was the gruff quick-responding auto parts counter guy cured my
ignorance quickly - by telling me in no uncertain terms I was an idiot
because _everyone_ knows that one side is threaded differently than the
other!

That was quick education in curing my reverse-threaded ignorance for sure.

Even with the education the counter guy barked at me, I haven't encountered
reverse-threaded lug bolts or reverse threaded lug nuts since, other than in
that one early seventies Dodge I owned in addition to that first late
sixties Chrysler.

Every once in a while though, I do run into reverse threaded connections.
I can't think of any common ones offhand though.

What else in a vehicle of today is typically reverse threaded?

[Ken Olson]

The driver.

--
ÄLSKAR - Fänga Dagen

[AMuzi]

Years ago we used Craftsman and yes they do wear/break from
time to time so we exchanged the failures once a year when
buying new tools. Until Sears changed to 'catalog credit'
rather than direct exchange; simultaneoulsy quality was
dropping. Changed over to SnapOn and never looked back.

Regarding ratchet handles, yes there are rebuild kits but
those change format every 10~15 years or so.

You may find vintage USA made SnapOn ratchets* at a price
comparable to a rebuild kit.

*sold by children of dead mechanics, a nearly endless resource.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 2:28 PM, rbowman wrote:

> Debugging is more complex.

Usually only one part fails, so all you need to do is debug to that.
But most people think debugging is harder than it really is, IMHO.

It's because they have the mentality of throwing parts at the problem.
Instead of the mentality that should be taught which is to debug it first.
a. Understand how the system works
b. Segregate the system into testable components
c. Isolate the one component that has failed

Replacing it is (usually - but not always) the easy part.

How many times have you seen someone ask on s.e.r how to fix a
non-functional microwave and someone invariably claims you should replace
the diode, without even explaining to that person how to debug if it's
actually that diode?

How many times have you seen someone ask on r.a.t how to fix an overheated
cooling system and someone claims you should replace the thermostat (without
even explaining to that person how to debug to see if it is the thermostat)?

How many times have you seen someone ask on a.h.r how to fix a non starting
electrical pump motor and someone tells him to replace the capacitor?

How many times have you seen someone ask how to fix a sputtering engine and
someone claims you should pour seafoam into it (without even debugging)?

How many times has someone said their car wouldn't start and someone else
immediately tells them to replace the battery or alternator (without debug)?

This almost complete and total lack of debug is pervasive everywhere.

While a _lot_ of things get fixed by "throwing parts" at them, I agree with
you that "debugging is more complex" than just throwing parts at a car.

A classic example of where people throw parts is when they don't understand
the system which is why debug starts with (a) understanding the system, and
debug ends with (c) isolating the bad part.

What I was taught in the fifties was the process of debug is three steps.
a. Understand
b. Segregate
c. Isolate

What I see people do instead is a single step (which might be three steps).
a. Replace
b. (If that didn't work) Replace (something else)
c. (If that still doesn't work) Replace (another part)

You see this all the time with ABS related debug where they replace each
wheel sensor or the ABS control modules or even brake components without
first isolating the problem to the failed component.

Rarely is more than one component failed, right?
That's a good question though to ask, philosophically speaking, on debug.

How often in your experience has the problem you're trying to fix been
caused by multiple failed components?

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 11:50 PM, rbowman wrote:

> "Discussing vaccination with a doctor is like discussing vegetarianism
> with a butcher."
> https://www.azquotes.com/author/13418-George_Bernard_Shaw
>
> Apropos to some of the threads in this group...

That's a good quote where the threads you speak of are filled with either
the rabit Democrats being completely ignorant of anything science related,
and at the same time the rabid Republicans being just as completely ignorant
that getting the highly modified genetic material injected into your arm
causes your cells to explode making the spike protein which your body treats
both as a "toxin" and an "antigen" - which is what the immune system
eventually (a few steps down in the process that they don't understand)
create short lived antibodies to (and other immune components, as the immune
system is freaking complex by all accounts).

Perhaps a simpler way to summarize the politicized science problem set is

Rabid Democrats: It's your body my choice
Rabid Republicans: It's my body my choice

Normal people: It's a difficult decision given the risk of death is almost
zero (it's 99.8% likely you won't die in the USA overall and 99.9998% likely
to survive if you're a child aged from 5 to 11 in the USA from October 2020
to October 2021 according to the CDC's own figures).

The science shows that most people (well more than half) don't even get any
symptoms even as almost all of those people who are immune to the disease
are seropositive (which is the case for _many_ immunities such as those to
the common cold or the flu). Some, paradoxically, aren't even seropositive
even as the virus itself has a relatively high human transmissibility.

However, enough of actual science.
Nobody seems to care about the science.

Certainly science isn't what the rabid {Democrats,Republicans} care about
though. They only care about the politics.

So far it seems _all_ the rabid {Republican,Democrats} are ignorant of the
science (quite a few, frankly, are rather stupid - which can't be cured).

The end result though is a politicized scientific experiment.
Rabid Democrat: I'm scared shitless of a disease so do what I tell you to!
Rabid Republican: I'm scared shitless of the government so I don't trust you!

[knuttle]

On 12/29/2021 2:12 PM, knuttle wrote:

> Normal people: It's a difficult decision given the risk of death is almost
> zero (it's 99.8% likely you won't die in the USA overall and 99.9998% likely
> to survive if you're a child aged from 5 to 11 in the USA from October 2020
> to October 2021 according to the CDC's own figures).

I want all the statements I make to be completely scientifically correct.
Particularly since rabid {Democrats,Republicans} don't care about science.

Hence I apologize that I accidentally added an extra unnecessary "9" where
the chance any one child has in the USA of not dying from Covid is 99.998%

a. Search term:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cdc+children+ages+5-11
b. First link:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/planning/children.html
(The CDC says to vaccinate them.)
c. Second link:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-11-2-3/03-Covid-Jefferson-508.pdf
(The CDC says kids have a 0.002% chance of dying from it.)

Obviously they don't care about the children per se.
Because the risk of Covid to chidlren is less than that of the flu.

What they care about is the children infecting the adults.

Even so, any one adult has a 99.8% chance of not dying from Covid.
However, even 0.2% of a big number is a lot of people overall.

For example, the risk to the United States is 0.2% of 350 million.
That's about 700,000 people (which includes the already very sick).

But for any one individual in the USA, the risk is clearly 0.2%.
Anyone claiming otherwise is simply ignoring the scientific facts.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 08:22 PM, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 9:55 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On my '55 Harley the ignition system was simple, points, manual spark
>> advance, coil, wires, and plugs.
>
> In my humble opinion, almost nothing has changed in our lifetimes.
> Nothing fundamental anyway.
>
> For example what generates the electrical power on those bikes?
>
> I've seen friends rebuild a rice-burner "alternator" whose field (B)
> current
> was simply a ring of magnets connected to the engine crankshaft.
>
> The magnets spun at engine speed inside a three-wire set of static coils.
>
> Two coils were connected when the handlebar light switch was off (in the
> days when there was a handlebar light switch anyway), three coils
> otherwise.
>
> A voltage regulator hung on the three-wire output.
>
> In essence, that's the same concept today (although with coils replacing
> the
> [B] magnet) on most of our gasoline powered vehicles even today, is it not?
>
> Those rice burners were only missing the battery charge "sense" logic.

The '55 was a two brush 6V generator. There was also a three brush 6V
and eventually a 12V. There wasn't a starter motor so that simplified
matters. I believe the Plymouth Valiant was the first car to use an
alternator and most other companies followed suit in the early '60s. I'm
not sure when bikes switched.

afaik, most bikes use stators. I know the '98 Harley does, and I'm
positive the 2008 V-Strom does since I had to replace it. I can tell you
getting the side cover back on with those magnets trying to suck in the
stator core is fun. Both use a solid state regulator.

Conceptually, both generators and alternators produce 12 (or 6) volts DC
sooner or later. Alternators had to wait for silicon diodes to catch up
before being feasible for vehicles. Even then pressing out the diodes to
replace them was somewhat common.

Dealing with the old 3 coil mechanical regulators is another skill that
isn't in high demand these days, along with replacing brushes and
stoning commutators. The fun factor is reduced. I had a Plymouth where
the regulator points would weld occasionally, turning the generator into
a motor. Turn off engine, listen for the generator trying to eat the
belt, open hood, beat on regulator. Plan on a little quality time with
a riffler file to clean up the points.

[John]

knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote

> On 12/29/2021 2:12 PM, knuttle wrote:
>
>> Normal people: It's a difficult decision given the risk of death is
>> almost
>> zero (it's 99.8% likely you won't die in the USA overall and 99.9998%
>> likely
>> to survive if you're a child aged from 5 to 11 in the USA from October
>> 2020
>> to October 2021 according to the CDC's own figures).
>
> I want all the statements I make to be completely scientifically correct.

They never are. In spades with stupid claims about
"genetic therapy" and how mRNA vaccines work.

[knuttle]

On 12/29/2021 1:43 PM, knuttle wrote:

> Obviously both the lug bolts and lug nuts would need the same threading.

I had a terminology brain fart which I apologize for.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=difference+between+lug+and+lug+nut+and+lug+bolt

I'm not sure what a "lug" really is but it's probably the thing sticking out
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lug

Hence a lug nut, I guess, terminologically speaking, goes on a lug.
Whereas a lug bolt, I guess, properly speaking, goes into a lug hole.

I apologize for not being clear when I last posted between
a. lug
b. lug nut
c. lug bolt

I'm ignorant, actually, of what you call the hole that a lug bolt goes into.
And I'm not sure if the lug nut goes on what we'd call a threaded lug?

Does it?
a. What is the threaded rod sticking out properly called?
b. What is the threaded hole that is not sticking out properly called?

I apologize that I don't know the answer to a degree that I can be certain.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 08:24 PM, knuttle wrote:
>> The magnets spun at engine speed inside a three-wire set of static coils.
>

> Actually the permanent magnets may have spun _outside_ the static coils.
> I forget which - but the concept is the same either way - is it not?

Outside afaik.

https://www.amazon.com/ElectroSport-08-12-Suzuki-DL650-Stator/dp/B008PAKS72

I've got a dead one out in the shed if you need a paper weight. I'm
saving it because it's cheaper to get it rewound if you provide a core.
From the forums, the stator is one of the weaknesses on the earlier
V-Stroms. Manufacturers have been providing more capacity since bikes,
like everything else, have become electronics platforms.

One problem with FI is you don't get far without the electric fuel pump.
I almost made it home...

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 11:04 PM, rbowman wrote:

> I won't say replacing the serpentine belt on a Geo is difficult but it
> is a bit tight. I had the 4 cylinder; maybe the 3 cylinder was roomier.

The fewer thin long strong leverage tools you have (for the tensioners), the
harder it is. But with a single long strong thin properly sized tool, it can
be easy to keep the tension off the belt so that you can slip the belt onto
the topmost pulley.

It's even harder if all you have are those fat harbor freight tools.
It's one reason I will never go into a harbor freight store (or walmart).

The hard part I would guess is having a general purpose tensioner pry tool.
What would that be?

I don't know as I had to put a pipe over my thinnest Craftsman socket wrench
with a short socket over the 19mm tensioner "head" in order to slip the
serpentine belt over a new alternator I just replaced.

That Denso alternator had two bracket bolts holding it into a single
position on the FWD car so it wasn't even adjustable once those two 12mm and
14mm bolts were threaded in.

Maybe that's the kind of "abuse" though that broke my Craftsman hand tools.

> Interestingly, the home built airplane people love that engine. Light,
> dependable, and cheap.
>
> I liked the Geo enough that I looked at a Suzuki, but that was about the
> time Suzuki automotive was going down the toilet. I've got a couple of
> Suzuki bikes and that division is still going strong.

Isn't an air-cooled two-stroke motorcycle kind of the same idea?

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 11:18 PM, rbowman wrote:

> I keep the old pickup around to have
> something to fiddle with. I've even thought about converting it back to
> points.

I don't miss sanding down that little mountain that grew on my points any
more than I miss sandblasting spark plugs fouled with two-stroke oil. :)

I do still have a kit with the timing light, dwell meter, spark gapper, and
feeler gauges (along with assorted hose plugs and clamps and vacuum and
pressure gauges which should still be useful were I to have a need to check
vacuum on any given hose).

The engines used to last how long then?
Maybe 100K miles? 150K?

Now how long do they last?
Essentially forever, don't they?

I don't know exactly what's different that makes cars last forever now.
Maybe it's that all of mine are from Japan nowadays?

[The Real Bev]

On 12/27/2021 10:04 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 09:30 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 12/27/2021 08:09 PM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 12/27/2021 7:53 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>> On 12/27/2021 02:58 PM, knuttle wrote:
>>>>> What have you learned in your old age about car and home repair
>>>>> that you feel should perhaps be taught to high school students?
>>>>
>>>> That you can save a ton of money by learning to fix things yourself. We
>>>> didn't have the benefit of youtube videos for just about anything that's
>>>> broken -- we had to learn it the hard way.
>>>>
>>>> My junior high (middle school now) required everyone, regardless of sex,
>>>> to take a semester of shop and one of home ec. Neither gave us any
>>>> actual useful knowledge (I made a wooden number thing for our house and
>>>> some really nasty chipped beef on toast), other than that we could
>>>> actually use tools and machinery to accomplish tasks. Good enough.
>>>
>>> Like today, when my neighbor told me his kitchen faucet had no cold
>>> water due to the cold blast we are in. I glanced at his house, and told
>>> him the first thing to do is disconnect that hose from his frost free
>>> hose spigot.
>>>
>>> I then told him ways to get heat to the frozen pipe it attached to.
>>
>> I'm from SoCal. What are "frozen pipes"?
>
> Those are those things that lead to burning the house down when you
> slither into the crawl space with a propane torch.
>
> SoCal isn't exempt. I forget which year it was but driving east from LA
> I saw all the irrigation pipes at Rancho Cucamonga had turned into ice
> sculpture. Even at Vegas the fountains were frozen.

Yeah, but that's not CITY! It snowed in Los Angeles in 1949 (I was sick
and couldn't go out to play in it) and in some year possibly in the 80s
in Pasadena. Novelty. It snows up in the mountains, of course, but
that's not MY problem!

When I was little they would light smudge pots in the orange orchards
when a freeze was expected. They looked like little round black bombs.
Then people started worrying about smog...

--
Cheers, Bev
"It's important to never be arrogant. Especially if you're one
of the little people whose opinion doesn't matter." --Rat

[knuttle]

On 12/28/2021 11:14 PM, rbowman wrote:

> Changing the fuel pump in my '86 F150 was easy :) However now I have
> fuel up to the carb but it's no go again. I think the float is sticking
> but I'll deal with that in the spring.

Once had a fuel pump internal gasket go bad on an early 70's Dodge which
pumped gasoline all over the engine with every rotation of its cam shaft.

The fuel spurted out of a perfectly formed hole about 1/4" in diameter.
I was ignorant that they're designed to do that.

I couldn't at first figure out what had failed since it seemed someone
drilled a quarter inch hole in the top of the mechanical fuel pump.

Drove that thing to the auto parts store with the fuel leaking all over.
If that's not stupidity added to ignorance, I don't know what else is.

Nowadays I'm happy for electrical fuel pumps sitting in the fuel tank.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 08:27 PM, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 7:08 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>> The biggest change??? Undoubtably it is Unleaded fuel. No lead means
>> no phosphorous - which makes oi last longer. No lead makes plugs last
>> longer. No phosphorous mkes exhaust last longer. No phosphorous makes
>> engine internal parts last longer. No lead makes valves last longer.
>>
>> Add electronic controls and you get away from running too rich cold
>> which makes EVERYTHING last longer. No carb and choke adjustments. No
>> point adjustment or change. No timing adjustment. Now no plug wires,
>> cap and rotor, distributor advance,
>> Basically NO TUNE UP.
>> No valve adjustment, no valve grinds, no re-rings or bearing
>> replacements for the life of the car - which is a MINIMUM of 4 times
>> what it used to be.
>>
>> That's the MECHANICAL end.
>> Then we get to the bodywork Cars used to be rusted away junk within 6
>> years. It was common to have competely repainted a car at least once
>> in it's short lifetime. By 1971 my1963 Valiant had been repainted
>> twice. It was not uncommon to have the transmission replaced or
>> rebuilt before 60000 miles and replacing the exhaust was pretty much
>> an annual occurence.
>
> That's an interesting take on the biggest change being the loss of leaded
> fuel. But didn't valve seats have to change in order to compensate for it?

That should start a religious war... The metallurgy did change for
newer vehicles but there are endless discussions about whether
pre-unleaded engines will be destroyed by unleaded gas. The thing to
keep in mind is a lot of those engines weren't known for valve longevity
even with leaded gas. I've done valve jobs on engines where the valves
and seats looked like the gates of hell long before leaded gas was taken
off the market.

Also, a lot of people swore by Amoco Super Premium which was unleaded
decades before unleaded was cool.

[The Real Bev]

On 12/28/2021 10:51 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 08:36 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <j2vna8...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
>> says...
>>> You're right. I didn't even think at the understanding level. My early
>>> experience involved repair usually. When the car overheats because the
>>> phenolic impeller in the water pump detached from the shaft you learn
>>> about cooling systems to say nothing of Chrysler's decision to use a
>>> plastic impeller. Chrysler product also taught you not all threads a
>>> right handed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Even tghe Chrysler lugnuts on one side was left handed and the other
>> right handed. Not sure if they are now or not as that was back around
>> 1970 that I worked at Sears changing tires and plugs and simple things.
>>
>> Now almost all new cars require very little for the first 50 to 100
>> thousand miles other than an oil change every 5000 t0 10,000 miles.
>> No more than I drive now it is just changed at the state inspection
>> time.
>>
>
> The Toyota manual is pretty boring. Change the oil every 5000 miles and
> rotate the tires. The 2007 version said to change the antifreeze at
> 50000 iirc but even that is missing in the 2018 manual. I run studs in
> the winter so I count that as rotating the tires.
>
> I bought the car in March of 01, CE (Covid Era) on the day this county
> locked down. I even called the dealer to make sure they would be open
> that Saturday. I noticed the odometer yesterday and it was up to 11000
> something. The car will last forever at this rate.

I bought my 2013 Corolla in 2016. It now has 33K miles on the odo. I
may be buried in it. It does have a chronic problem with one tire --
every month or so the pressure drops down to 24 psi and I have to pump
it up. Dealer has no clue. Original tires are still good, although the
dealer keeps trying to convince me that they need replacement. I've
NEVER had to replace a tire because of sidewall problems ("See that
checking? Dangerous..." -- which includes my 30-YO Dunlop motorcycle
tire which still held air when I sent my 1960 Ducati off to the dealer
as a free gift.

[The Real Bev]

On 12/28/2021 11:27 AM, knuttle wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 1:41 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
>>> And don't buy the cheap Harbor Freight open ends no matter how pretty
>>> they are. I broke one on a drain plug.
>>
>> I've never broken an open end but I approach Harbor Freight stuff with
>> caution. I stocked the tool tube on my V-Strom. They're a step up from
>> the Suzuki tools but if someone rips off the tube I'm only out about
>> $40. They are not the tools I use for working on the bike at home.

They were smooth and shiny and a kind of gunmetal grey color. How could
anything that pretty be made of pot metal?

> On principle I've never been inside a harbor freight store (or Walmart) but
> I do lately lament the loss of easy access to the Sears stores because all
> my old tools are Craftsman tools.
>
> What has replaced Craftsman for decent quality for the homeowner nowadays?

I always liked Protos. They were just beautiful and the pliers were
designed to NOT pinch your hand if you were careless.

[rbowman]

On 12/28/2021 09:24 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 11:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 12/28/2021 11:09 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>>> On 12/28/2021 10:36 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>>>> In article <j2vna8...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
>>>> says...
>>>>> You're right. I didn't even think at the understanding level. My early
>>>>> experience involved repair usually. When the car overheats because the
>>>>> phenolic impeller in the water pump detached from the shaft you learn
>>>>> about cooling systems to say nothing of Chrysler's decision to use a
>>>>> plastic impeller. Chrysler product also taught you not all threads a
>>>>> right handed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Even tghe Chrysler lugnuts on one side was left handed and the other
>>>> right handed. Not sure if they are now or not as that was back around
>>>> 1970 that I worked at Sears changing tires and plugs and simple things.
>>>>
>>>> Now almost all new cars require very little for the first 50 to 100
>>>> thousand miles other than an oil change every 5000 t0 10,000 miles.
>>>> No more than I drive now it is just changed at the state inspection
>>>> time.

>>> My Karmann Ghia was like that to. Theoretically, it is a good idea but
>>> in practice, never was a problem having both sides the same.
>>
>> left handed? Oddly for a person of my generation I never owned a VW
>> and only ever drove on about 50 yards to get it clear of a loading
>> dock. The closest I came was an Audi.
>>
>> I always wanted one. The concept appealed to me. Simple, cheap and you
>> could mix and match pieces and parts over a number of years when
>> American cars were changing every year. The New Beetle missed the
>> cheap part.
>
> Left handed. Not lug nuts but lug bolts. always a PITA to get the
> first one in.

iirc the Audi had bolts. That apple didn't fall far from the tree. I
have to assume Audi has improved a lot since 1971.

[The Real Bev]

On 12/29/2021 01:14 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 12/28/2021 11:27 AM, knuttle wrote:
>> On 12/28/2021 1:41 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>>> And don't buy the cheap Harbor Freight open ends no matter how pretty
>>>> they are. I broke one on a drain plug.
>>>
>>> I've never broken an open end but I approach Harbor Freight stuff with
>>> caution. I stocked the tool tube on my V-Strom. They're a step up from
>>> the Suzuki tools but if someone rips off the tube I'm only out about
>>> $40. They are not the tools I use for working on the bike at home.
>
> They were smooth and shiny and a kind of gunmetal grey color. How could
> anything that pretty be made of pot metal?
>
>> On principle I've never been inside a harbor freight store (or Walmart) but
>> I do lately lament the loss of easy access to the Sears stores because all
>> my old tools are Craftsman tools.
>>
>> What has replaced Craftsman for decent quality for the homeowner nowadays?

Haunt estate sales. That's where we bought most of our tools. Last new
Craftsman socket (10mm, all lost) let me peel its chrome off with my
thumbnail.

BUT on a couple of my walks in the last year I FOUND 10mm sockets. One
deep Craftsman 3/8" and a regular 3/8 of unknown brand. Karma.

[rbowman]

I don't know. I don't think I have any left but there was a Montgomery
Wards store where I grew up and their PowerKraft line also had a
lifetime guarantee. Sears was a late-comer and mail order but Wards was
a distribution point with merchandise on the floor.

They would replace a 'defective' 1/2 ratchet knowing full well 4' of
pipe and a frozen nut had something to do with the 'defect'.

[Peeler]

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 07:30:55 +1100, John, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>

--
FredXX to Rodent Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shipped the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID: <plbf76$gfl$1...@dont-email.me>

[Peeler]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:22:58 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:
>

> I don't know. I don't think

Let's leave at that, you abnormal senile gossip! <BG>

--
More idiotic senile gossip by lowbrowwoman:
"It's been years since I've been in a fast food burger joint but I used
to like Wendy's because they had a salad bar and baked potatoes."
MID: <ivdi4g...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:15:08 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:
>

> iirc the Audi had bolts. That apple didn't fall far from the tree. I
> have to assume Audi has improved a lot since 1971.

See, there is NOTHING you can NOT gossip about in your known bigmouthed
manner! <BG>

--
Yet more of the so very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
"My family loaded me into a '51 Chevy and drove from NY to Seattle and
back in '52. I'm alive. The Chevy had a painted steel dashboard with two
little hand prints worn down to the primer because I liked to stand up
and lean on it to see where we were going."
MID: <j2kuc1...@mid.individual.net>

[Peeler]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:09:10 -0700, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,

troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:
>

> That should start a religious war...

LOL What a ridiculous wordy bigmouth!