Used Oil Analysis of CAMRY'S Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 after 4,920 miles
Built_Well
sample that came out of my oil pan's drain plug when I did an oil
change. Here are the results of the UOA (used oil analysis).
OCI means Oil Change Interval.
PP means Pennzoil Platinum, a synthetic oil (Group III anyway).
6-month OCI (from May 16 to November 12, 2008).
Toyota OEM air and oil filters (Denso 90915-YZZF1).
19,620 total car miles.
This was my second consecutive fill with PP 5w-30 (API SM & GF-4).
I had previously used Mobil 1 and Valvoline Conventional.
Always gentle driving on roads in Columbia, Missouri and St. Louis.
Special Notes: The first 3,200 miles of this approximate 5,000-mile
OCI was exclusive city driving with most trips averaging somewhere
between 15 miles and 30 miles (all city, again). The next 1,700 miles
of this OCI was a 50/50 mix of city and highway.
On the actual day of the oil change, just before changing the oil, I
drove the car about 30 miles on the highway, then let it idle
15 minutes while I brought out the ramps and other equipment.
Although my manual calls for 4 quarts of oil when changing the oil
and oil filter, I always put in 4.25 quarts.
This is Toyota's 2.4L 2AZ-FE engine, an inline 4 cylinder.
Blackstone-Labs results:
Miles on oil: 4,920
Miles on engine: 19,610
Sample date: 11/12/2008 ; Report date: 11/24/2008
Makeup oil added: 0
[First number = my sample's results] , [Second number = Universal Averages
for this engine]
Aluminum 3 , 3
Chromium 0 , 0
Iron 7 , 10
Copper 1 , 2
Lead 3 , 2
Tin 0 , 1
Molybdenum 53 , 90
Nickel 0 , 0
Manganese 0 , 0
Silver 0 , 0
Titanium 0 , 0
---------
Potassium 2 , 1
Boron 28 , 39
Silicon 17 , 17
Sodium 4 , 14
---------
Calcium 2795 , 2347
Magnesium 15 , 121
Phosphorous 714 , 719
Zinc 860 , 853
Barium 1 , 0
MY RESULTS // VALUES SHOULD BE
SUS Viscosity @ 210* F = 59.3 // 56 - 63
cSt Viscosity @ 100* C = 10.03 // 9.1 - 11.3
Flashpoint in * F = 400 // > 365
Fuel % is < 0.5 // < 2.0
Antifreeze % = 0.0 // 0.0
Water % = 0.0 // < 0.1
Insolubles % = 0.2 // < 0.6
TBN = 4.7
TAN = 0.9
Built_Well's Note: The UOA cost about $22 or so. The TAN and the TBN
readings cost an extra $10 each, and you gotta request them at Blackstone
if you want them. I forgot to request the TAN, but I emailed them a day
after receiving my results, and they pulled my oil sample and ran the TAN.
I was happy that they hadn't immediately thrown away my oil sample after
running the standard tests the day before. I don't know how long they keep
the oil samples, though.
Anyway, I wanted a TAN (Total Acid Number) reading just for fun to compare
it to RLI's Bio-Syn reading when I send the used Bio-Syn 0w-30 to
Blackstone in the future (RLI is Renewable Lubricants, Inc's oil available
at RenewableLube.com). The results above for the used Pennzoil Platinum
5w-30 oil happened during moderate temperatures and weather from May to
November (mostly Summer and Fall). I think it'll be interesting to compare
the nice weather PP results to the harsh weather Bio-Syn results (Winter).
Finally, I think the numbers that Blackstone provides for the "Universal
Averages" for the Toyota aluminum 2AZ-FE engine are from many oil samples
tested with an average distance of 4,600 miles for the many samples sent
in by their customers.
HLS
"Built_Well" <Built_We...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a50fc7c$0$28140$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
> About 7 months ago, I mailed to Blackstone Labs a used motor oil
> sample that came out of my oil pan's drain plug when I did an oil
> change. Here are the results of the UOA (used oil analysis).
And the winner is?
Built_Well
> Built_Well wrote:
>
>> About 7 months ago, I mailed to Blackstone Labs a used motor oil
>> sample that came out of my oil pan's drain plug when I did an oil
>> change. Here are the results of the UOA (used oil analysis).
>> =======
>
> And the winner is?
========
Can't say yet who the winner is. The RLI Bio-Syn 0w-30 is still in
the car ;-)
It's great oil--the motor is so, so quiet. Start-ups during the
winter were so easy, too (effortless).
Next I'll try Amsoil 0w-30.
Scott Dorsey
Umm.... you're really not going to be able to make _any_ judgement at
all with a single test on each oil.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Built_Well
>
> Umm.... you're really not going to be able to make _any_ judgement at all
> with a single test on each oil.
Umm, I'm less interested in finding a winner than safely extending my
OCIs (oil change intervals) to 6,000 or 7,000 miles :-P
Here's what Blackstone-Labs.com had to say about the Pennzoil
Platinum 5w-30 UOA in the Camry:
"All wear read near or below averages for this type of engine, which
is a very good indication of normal wearing parts and careful operation.
The universal averages show normal wear after ~4,600 miles on the
oil. Insolubles (oil oxidation due to heat, use, and blow-by) were
low at 0.2%, showing good oil filtration. No fuel dilution or
anti-freeze was found. Silicon was normal at 17 ppm (parts per
million), so your air filtration is still getting the job done.
The TBN (Total Base Number) read 4.7. 1.0 is considered low, so
plenty of the additive was still active. Nothing abnormal was
found. Looks like a nice engine."
Later in an email correspondence, Blackstone Labs stated:
"As far as the oil use goes, I think you could easily go
past 5,000 miles for the oil change and 7,000 miles would
be a good sampling point next time. If everything continues
to look good, we'll suggest going even longer after that."
[End Quote]
Well, I don't plan on ever extending beyond 7,000 miles, but if
I wanted to do 5,000-mile and 6-month oil changes, the
non-synthetic Castrol GTX would probably suffice, as it appears
to be one of the best dinos from a UOA perspective. But I
don't really relish getting underneath the car anymore, so my
preference is 6,000 or 7,000 miles changes and up to 10 months
time.
I'll probably even use an oversized filter next time like the
Mobil 1 209 in place of the specified Mobil 1 103 (some people
do that), but the 103 would probably be fine too. Right now
I'm still using the OEM spec'ed Denso filter (YZZF1). For the
next UOA, I'll get a particulate count so I can compare the
Denso with the future Mobil 1.
I guess this isn't all about fun. It's also about saving time
and getting underneath the car less often. And I'd rather not
have to trust dealers and independent shops to do the work.
Nobody will do the work better than you, as we saw with the
over-torqued lug nuts on my Camry, when the dealer rotated
the tires ;-)
Scott Dorsey
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> Umm.... you're really not going to be able to make _any_ judgement at all
>> with a single test on each oil.
>
>OCIs (oil change intervals) to 6,000 or 7,000 miles :-P
And what do you think you will find on a single data point that will tell
you something that will help this?
Vic Smith
>Built_Well <Built_We...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>
>>> Umm.... you're really not going to be able to make _any_ judgement at all
>>> with a single test on each oil.
>>
>>Umm, I'm less interested in finding a winner than safely extending my
>>OCIs (oil change intervals) to 6,000 or 7,000 miles :-P
>
>And what do you think you will find on a single data point that will tell
>you something that will help this?
Don't be a party-pooper. He's enjoying himself.
Sometimes that's more important than getting answers to life's
imponderable questions.
--Vic
HLS
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> Don't be a party-pooper. He's enjoying himself.
> Sometimes that's more important than getting answers to life's
> imponderable questions.
>
> --Vic
You can fiddlefart around with these oil analyses as long as you like, but
I am not sure that you get anything as valuable as an oil change would
deliver.
And I am a chemist.
Toyota MDT in MO
as OTR truck engines and stationary generators. For a Camry, I agree :-)
--
Toyota MDT in MO
Scott Dorsey
>"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Don't be a party-pooper. He's enjoying himself.
>> Sometimes that's more important than getting answers to life's
>> imponderable questions.
>>
>I am not sure that you get anything as valuable as an oil change would
>deliver.
>
>And I am a chemist.
Well, the oil analysis is a lot like an oil change, in that you can't
just do it once, you have to keep doing it on a regular basis.
What the original poster's analysis tells him is that his engine is
not showing any obvious signs of impending catastrophic failure, his
rings aren't totally shot, his air filter is good, and his oil is
not breaking down. All of these things are things that he could probably
have guessed before doing the analysis.
All a single analysis tells you is that you don't have something horribly
catastrophic wrong. It'll let you know you don't have severe oil breakdown,
and to be honest with ANY motor oil today you won't see severe oil
breakdown after 7,000 miles. This isn't 1970 any longer. The problem
is that what you want to know about your engine is a little bit more
detailed than that.
The problem is that to do long-term oil analyses and keep accurate plots
for years on end is an expensive proposition... much more expensive than
the oil changes you might save. But you can do it if you're inclined to
do such things.
You could buy three identical cars, keep changing the oil on all of them
with a different kind of oil in each, and try and rotate your commute
around all three of them so you put about the same mileage on them. Then
you could do long-term oil analysis on each and five or six years later
probably get a good idea of how each of the oils is doing. I could see
someone doing that.
I mean, I'm the guy who does electrophoresis plates on soy sauce and
titrations on dishwashing detergents so I know which one to buy... but
even I'm not crazy enough to do regular oil analysis...
Toyota MDT in MO
> HLS <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>
>> "Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>>> Don't be a party-pooper. He's enjoying himself.
>>> Sometimes that's more important than getting answers to life's
>>> imponderable questions.
>>>
>>>
>> You can fiddlefart around with these oil analyses as long as you like, but
>> I am not sure that you get anything as valuable as an oil change would
>> deliver.
>>
>> And I am a chemist.
>>
>
>
> titrations on dishwashing detergents so I know which one to buy... but
> even I'm not crazy enough to do regular oil analysis...
> --scott
>
Sorry, just having some fun...
Sharx35
Syn oil is already so cheap compared to a replacement engine...what's the
big deal about getting modest increases in oil change intervals? Sounds like
penny wise and pound foolish. Google is your friend.
ransley
Why do you overfill it, more oil = more friction at the crank- less
milage, try 0-30 Mobil 1. I notice a reduction in performance at
around 3-4000 with synthetics, aditive packages loose efffectivness
over time.
SMS
> You could buy three identical cars, keep changing the oil on all of them
> with a different kind of oil in each, and try and rotate your commute
> around all three of them so you put about the same mileage on them. Then
> you could do long-term oil analysis on each and five or six years later
> probably get a good idea of how each of the oils is doing. I could see
> someone doing that.
Such tests have been done, and no advantage was shown for synthetic oil.
However they did not do extended change intervals. It could be that if
they had gone 7500 or 10,000 miles between changes that they would have
found an advantage to synthetic.
ransley
If possibly you are saying synthetic has ho benefit put some regular
oil and syn in the deep freeze and see which one pours at -15f better,
it also doesnt burn up in high heat like regular oil. Cold startup can
really starve a motor of oil.
HLS
"ransley" <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ee761540-f21a-43f7...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
*******************
Statistical analysis of data from a large number of cars driven under
different conditions
would be interesting. There are mathematical ways of selecting appropriate
populations
for this sort of analysis.
Just looking at a few cases leads to anecdotal, and probably useless,
information.
If you keep your car in a deepfreeze at -15F (or geographical facsimile),
then the low
temperature flow characteristics become more important. I weathered a lot
of winters
in Norway, but it never got that cold where I lived. I used both synthetic
and dino oils
in two different cars because that is what the manufacturer recommended.
Both cars
did well enough, although the synthetic user "seeped" from the time it was
new.
The dino lubricated car started well, developed oil pressure instantly,
although the lowest
temperatures involved were in the range of -15C.
All of this is, of course, anecdotal.
Our two new cars used dino. I change them regularly and well within the
manufactures
recommendation (5000 miles recommended). I would not at all change over to
synthetic
because I no longer live in a deepfreeze, the manufacturer does not
recommend synthetic,
and I see no advantage in my case.
SMS
Yes, in extremely cold climates, and in very high performance engines
that run very hot, there's an advantage to synthetic. The issue is that
so many people use synthetic in mild climates and in normal engines, and
also don't extend the oil change interval. They're throwing money away
because all the tests show no benefit.
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not extreme cold is needed to benefit, even at 20-30f oils dont flow
as well as they do when warm, also there is a group of earlier toyotas
known to sludge and ruin motors from the motors higher operating temp,
synthetic would have been a big benefit to them. I use it, I notice a
diference, oil is cheap compared to a new motor.
Michael
Electrophoresis plates for soy sauce? Why, how, ??? !!! ???
Use Datu Puti (cheap, tastes good) and you're done. :D
Michael
HLS
"ransley" <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
Not extreme cold is needed to benefit, even at 20-30f oils dont flow
as well as they do when warm, also there is a group of earlier toyotas
known to sludge and ruin motors from the motors higher operating temp,
synthetic would have been a big benefit to them. I use it, I notice a
diference, oil is cheap compared to a new motor.
************
Talk is cheap, data isnt.
Oil IS cheap compared with a new motor. Our Avalon has a 6.4 quart change
volume
and recommended change mileage of 5000 or less.
Synthetic is no benefit to me.
A lot of people quote the benefits of synthetic, but dont have a bit of data
to stand behind
their claim.
BS = BS
SMS
> A lot of people quote the benefits of synthetic, but dont have a bit of
> data to stand behind
> their claim.
Where would they get that data? It doesn't exist. Unless you want data
from Amsoil dealers, LOL.
Sharx35
"SMS" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:DHJ4m.5631$lv5....@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
Bullshit.
Sharx35
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:ZIR4m.7315$OF1....@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
What kind of stupid fucking asshole pays $30,000 for a vehicle then quibbles
over a measly view dollars re synthetic oil vs dino oil?
ray
>
> The problem is that to do long-term oil analyses and keep accurate plots
> for years on end is an expensive proposition... much more expensive than
> the oil changes you might save. But you can do it if you're inclined to
> do such things.
>
> You could buy three identical cars, keep changing the oil on all of them
> with a different kind of oil in each, and try and rotate your commute
> around all three of them so you put about the same mileage on them. Then
> you could do long-term oil analysis on each and five or six years later
> probably get a good idea of how each of the oils is doing. I could see
> someone doing that.
>
I've thought about the oil analysis stuff in the past.
Instead, I currently own two 1990 vintage Chevys (Beretta and 1/2 ton.)
They both have about 150,000 miles.
Neither of them has had the heads off or rings or bearings done.
Both of them still run fine.
Rust will take them both first.
I'm actually amazed the truck still works - I blew the intake last
winter and filled the motor with chocolate goo. I was so cheap I reused
the valve cover gaskets because I thought the motor was a goner. I
swear, the damn thing has more power than it used to! Probably because
I timed it by ear... probably one degree away from spark knocking the
rings into pieces... :)
My point is... oil analysis may be cool, but it's pretty much pointless.
You'll be tired of the car before the car is tired.
Ray
HLS
"Sharx35" <sha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Y5U4m.35299$PH1.12888@edtnps82...
Nearer $40,000, asshole.
HLS
That is my point.. There is a "black hole" that real data never seems to
emerge from.
Lots of claims, lots of opinions, but very little meaningful data.
Toyota MDT in MO
the comfort and distance of her PC takes real balls.
HLS
"Toyota MDT in MO" <toyota...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:V205m.2735
>>>
>>> What kind of stupid fucking asshole pays $30,000 for a vehicle then
>>> quibbles over a measly view dollars re synthetic oil vs dino oil?
>>
>> Nearer $40,000, asshole.
> Man, the internet tough guys are out in force. Calling you names from the
> comfort and distance of her PC takes real balls.
>
> --
> Toyota MDT in MO
From a person like this, I can laugh off name-calling ;>)
Scott Dorsey
>
>Electrophoresis plates for soy sauce? Why, how, ??? !!! ???
>
>Use Datu Puti (cheap, tastes good) and you're done. :D
That's good if you're making lumpia but it's different than typical
Chinese soy sauces... and the Chinese sauces come in a variety of
different densities and sweetnesses, for various different table and
cooking applications.
The plates were very interesting. We found, for instance, that Pearl
River Bridge Gold Label is identical to the cheaper and lower grade
Pearl River Bridge sauce, except with more water and salt added. And
also that there are a lot of companies selling Pearl River Bridge sauce
that isn't actually the real thing at all. It seems that that brand has
enough of a name that other Chinese companies are printing labels with
that name on it.
Oh... another interesting thing we found is that the heavy sauces almost
always have less wheat than the table sauces, which is important if you
are cooking for people who can't handle wheat proteins. Some of the
sauces that claim to use peanuts instead of wheat will actually use
wheat anyway because it's cheaper.
Let's hear it for Chinese quality control...
Scott Dorsey
And there is the rub.
There probably ARE some people who have done good controlled studies
on the subject, but they aren't going to be telling anyone about them
because that's valuable proprietary information.
SMS
All the meaningful data that's available shows no benefit for synthetics
in terms of engine protection, except in very cold climates and for high
performance engines. Naturally these studies are attacked. There's also
absolutely no data showing better fuel economy from synthetics.
Anyone want to buy an Ionic Breeze?
Michael
Amazing. Well, for us, the wife either goes with Datu Puti or Silver
Swan... and won't touch anything else. Even Kikkoman. Well it's her
dish, so that's fine with me... :D if I cook, so long as it's black
and smells like soy sauce, that's good enough for me.
Isn't gel electrophoresis for determining protein weights? So you
have a bunch of sodium dodecyl sulfate and polyacrylamide handy at
home, eh? :D It's been years since I took a biochemistry lab.
Michael
dsi1
>
> The plates were very interesting. We found, for instance, that Pearl
> River Bridge Gold Label is identical to the cheaper and lower grade
> Pearl River Bridge sauce, except with more water and salt added. And
> also that there are a lot of companies selling Pearl River Bridge sauce
> that isn't actually the real thing at all. It seems that that brand has
> enough of a name that other Chinese companies are printing labels with
> that name on it.
>
> Oh... another interesting thing we found is that the heavy sauces almost
> always have less wheat than the table sauces, which is important if you
> are cooking for people who can't handle wheat proteins. Some of the
> sauces that claim to use peanuts instead of wheat will actually use
> wheat anyway because it's cheaper.
If you can't handle wheat, you probably should stay away from any bottle
of that stuff. I've never seen a peanut soy sauce. Sounds icky. I prefer
Aloha brand shoyu. This is a fake sauce and one that many folks would
say sounds icky. :-)
>
> Let's hear it for Chinese quality control...
Yaaaay!
> --scott
Sharx35
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:h328na$3po$1...@panix2.panix.com...
Well, I am probably as stingy and tight with my money as ANYONE but I ONLY
use syn oil in my 99 Camry 6 cyl. here in Edmonton, Canada. No matter HOW
COLD it gets, e.g. -40, there is NO DRAG....car starts instantly. Try THAT
with dino oil.
Going through Death Valley...no oil breakdown. Try THAT with dino oil.
HLS
"Joe Brophy" <pcf...@upwardaccess.com> wrote in message
I see no "data" that "stands behind" your statement:
"Synthetic is no benefit to me." either.
What assumptions influenced your opinion, resulting in the
perspective,that synthetic motor oil is no different than
non-synthetic motor oil if used in your vehicle?
Just curious, regards, Joe.
****************
Manufacturer does not either recommend or specify synthetic. That is one
reason.
Second reason is that I do not now live in a part of the country where
extreme
cold is an issue. I have no need for the extreme temperature specifications
claimed
by synthetics.
Third is that my previous cars which were lubricated with high quality
petroleum
based oils all had excellent engine life with no indication of premature
wear. Some
went 200,000 miles before I traded up, and I kept others to well over
100,000
miles before I traded (usually due to the age of the vehicle). The only
engine I ever lost was a Pontiac Fiero 4 cylinder which was due to the
inferior casting of this engine block.
Fourth, for me to change to synthetic which costs twice as much money at
least,
I will have to run the car at least twice as long on change intervals just
to break
even.
This isnt data. It is anecdotal. But in lieu of hard data to convince me
to change
from a pattern which has worked well for me, and to go to a system which is
more expensive, it is good enough.
HLS
Fair enough. If you experience temperatures that low, then synthetic is
one
method to approach it. Block heaters are another.
Mark
you are a "normal" driver who does little or no towing, avoids
excessive idling, keeps to moderate speeds, changes the filter every
oil change, etc. I have averaged 5-6,000 miles between oil changes
for 30 years on all my vehicles (one kept for 15-1/2 years) and have
never had a mechanical engine problem at all, let alone one that was
oil-related. I ALWAYS do my own oil changes and let the old oil drain
out for a minimum of 4 hours, usually overnight. 10K mile intervals
as the norm might be pushing things a bit, but you are fine at 6-7,000
with the caveats listed above.
On Jul 5, 5:54 pm, Built_Well <Built_Well_Toy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Umm, I'm less interested in finding a winner than safely extending my
> OCIs (oil change intervals) to 6,000 or 7,000 miles :-P
>
HLS
"Mark" <bogusm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:00c2dd62-d625-
On Jul 5, 5:54 pm, Built_Well <Built_Well_Toy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Umm, I'm less interested in finding a winner than safely extending my
> OCIs (oil change intervals) to 6,000 or 7,000 miles :-P
Depends on a couple of factors..If your car is within the warranty period,
and you want to maintain that warranty, then you do what the manufacturer
specifies. If they specify 5000 miles, then you might be taking a risk if
you went too far over that.
If you dont care about that, and you are not running under severe
conditions,
then you can probably run 6-7000 miles between oil changes.
Nicholas
I'm 100% with you guys on this and it is exactly what I do. Right
down to the Kind of oil: Pennzoil Platinum 5W20 in the 5 quart
container. Not that you need my support, but I thought I would chime
in here and give my own Personal Endorsement to what is being said
regarding extended oil change intervals.
Carry on.
Nick
Scott Dorsey
>
>Amazing. Well, for us, the wife either goes with Datu Puti or Silver
>Swan... and won't touch anything else. Even Kikkoman. Well it's her
>dish, so that's fine with me... :D if I cook, so long as it's black
>and smells like soy sauce, that's good enough for me.
My sneaking suspicion is that Kikkoman is overpriced junk as Japanese style
sauces go, but I don't really cook that style food and so I never did
test any of those sauces.
Your wife has the right idea, though... find something good that you like
and which is consistent, and stick with it.
>Isn't gel electrophoresis for determining protein weights? So you
>have a bunch of sodium dodecyl sulfate and polyacrylamide handy at
>home, eh? :D It's been years since I took a biochemistry lab.
You're basically taking everything in the sample and separating it top
to bottom by molecular weight, then right to left by electric charge.
The faster it climbs the gel, the lighter it is, and the more it's pulled
by the polarization voltage across the plate, the more charged it is.
Then you can apply a dye that indicates protein, or pH, or anything else
you want. We used a dye for proteins since that's the interesting stuff
you want to characterize with soy sauce.
I'm not a biochemist but I have friends who are and who will loan me stuff
out of their lab in exchange for my loaning them stuff out of mine.
Scott Dorsey
>
>If you can't handle wheat, you probably should stay away from any bottle
>of that stuff. I've never seen a peanut soy sauce. Sounds icky. I prefer
>Aloha brand shoyu. This is a fake sauce and one that many folks would
>say sounds icky. :-)
I grew up with Aloha Shoyu and it's probably one of the better Japanese
style sauces. They have limited distribution on the mainland.
There are some good peanut-based soy sauces out there.... ask your local
Vietnamese market for "vegetarian soy sauce" and they can probably find
something of that style.
The Chinese have perfected processes for making soy sauce out of human hair
and other repulsive procedures....
Scott Dorsey
>
>Well, I am probably as stingy and tight with my money as ANYONE but I ONLY
>use syn oil in my 99 Camry 6 cyl. here in Edmonton, Canada. No matter HOW
>COLD it gets, e.g. -40, there is NO DRAG....car starts instantly. Try THAT
>with dino oil.
Don't blame the oil for that. People shouldn't live that far north. You
have to wear clothes all the time. If you went outside in shorts you could
die! How can people live like that? Water is supposed to be a liquid. When
it turns into a solid form, this is a sign that human habitation is not
a good idea.
>Going through Death Valley...no oil breakdown. Try THAT with dino oil.
Actually, what fails at high temperatures are mostly the viscosity improvers
and not the oil itself. The VI chemistry is getting better and better, and
it's not related to the base oil at all.
SMS
> Fair enough. If you experience temperatures that low, then synthetic
> is one method to approach it. Block heaters are another.
Extreme cold is one of the two good reasons for synthetic oil.
But the implication that oil with a conventional base stock would break
down in Death Valley is false. Conventional base stock oil has no
problem with a high atmospheric temperature, and the engine temperature
varies only very slightly with outside temperature. No matter what, the
thermostat still opens at 190 degrees or so, and the outside temperature
never gets that hot.
The synthetic fringe tries to imply that it's "dino oil" versus
synthetic. In fact it's not that simple. Both synthetic base stock and
conventional base stock oils are highly engineered products with
additives to maintain viscosity, neutralize acid, and suspend
contaminants. It's not like comparing a can of oil from the 1940's with
a bottle of the best full synthetic.
In fact, in the U.S., the vast majority of oil sold as synthetic has a
base stock derived from petroleum.
What _is_ true, is that with synthetic base stock you can make an oil
that flows better in cold temperatures, and that can withstand higher
engine temperatures and pressures, such as those found in very high
performance engines--not the engine in a Camry!
SMS
> Actually, what fails at high temperatures are mostly the viscosity improvers
> and not the oil itself. The VI chemistry is getting better and better, and
> it's not related to the base oil at all.
Mobil and Amsoil really wish that you would stop stating this fact!
HLS
> HLS wrote:
>
>> Fair enough. If you experience temperatures that low, then synthetic is
>> one method to approach it. Block heaters are another.
>
> Extreme cold is one of the two good reasons for synthetic oil.
>
> But the implication that oil with a conventional base stock would break
> down in Death Valley is false.
Absolutely true...
>
>
> What _is_ true, is that with synthetic base stock you can make an oil that
> flows better in cold temperatures, and that can withstand higher engine
> temperatures and pressures, such as those found in very high performance
> engines--not the engine in a Camry!
Essentially true as well.
Michael
Speaking of other repulsive procedures... there's a Philippine dish
called "siopao" which is basically pork-filled bread. While visiting
the Philippines, there was a story on the local news about the Chinese
substituting the pork with cardboard... they'd soak cardboard in water
overnight, then stuff that into the siopaos and sell them.
Never heard about the human hair though... yecch.
I bought some food-grade Aspergillus oryzae planning on making ethanol
at home (basically a modified Japanese sake process) but it stinks up
the garage too much, so I abandoned that line of experiments... but A.
oryzae from what I hear is used in making soy sauce... maybe brew your
own?
Michael
SMS
> SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> HLS wrote:
>>
>>> A lot of people quote the benefits of synthetic, but dont have a bit of
>>> data to stand behind
>>> their claim.
>> Where would they get that data? It doesn't exist. Unless you want data
>>from Amsoil dealers, LOL.
>
> And there is the rub.
>
> There probably ARE some people who have done good controlled studies
> on the subject, but they aren't going to be telling anyone about them
> because that's valuable proprietary information.
Actually if Amsoil, Mobil 1, and the other synthetic manufacturers had
controlled studies that supported the value of synthetic, for wear, fuel
economy, etc., then you can be sure that they'd be telling _everyone_
about them. And you can be certain that a company like Mobil 1 has
performed such studies in the hope that they'd get some useful data for
marketing purposes.
That they're reduced to statements like "Actual savings are dependent
upon vehicle/engine type, outside temperature, driving conditions and
your current engine oil viscosity. The higher your current viscosity
equates to a greater potential for savings."
Well yeah, if you go from 5W30 to 0W20 you might save a little fuel, but
typically you'll go from 5W30 to 0W30 where you'll save almost zero.
Toyota MDT in MO
Many eurotrash engines truly require "high HTHS" oils that can only be
engineered synthetically from the best base stocks, along with severe
sludge prevention additives to not self destruct in short order.
Camshafts on some of the high tech and/or 5 valve VW/Audis are prone to
failure with underspeced oil for the application. I say all the more
reason not to buy those cars :-)
nm...@wt.net
> also there is a group of earlier toyotas
> known to sludge and ruin motors from the motors higher operating temp,
> synthetic would have been a big benefit to them. I use it, I notice a
> diference, oil is cheap compared to a new motor.
That's why I use the castrol syntec blend. To help prevent
coking and sludge build up in the hot head areas.
And from what I've seen so far, synth oil and to a slightly
lesser extent synth blends, do resist coking vs dino oils.
It flows better when cold, but that's not a big issue to me
at this location.
The Toyota I have now is the first car I've ever used synth
or synth blend. But it had low miles to begin with, and I
want it to last 300k miles, and the previous sludge problems
made me paranoid. I never want to see that problem on mine.
Yes, they supposedly modified the heads to make them
less prone to sludge, but I've heard of the problem on the
newer models too. It didn't totally go away, but I do
have to wonder about the oil change skeds of the ones
with newer models that sludge.
I feel the extra protection from sludge is cheap insurance
on that car. I sleep better at night.
I change it every 5k as per the Toyota schedule.
I'd never use extended oil changes as I feel it's stupid.
I want the dirt and crud out of my engine on a regular
basis. I want a new filter on a regular basis. And I want
new oil on a regular basis as the detergents, etc are
depleted.
BTW, I know this is not a controlled test, but I know
of people that have torn down engines that used various
oils through their life.
I know of one that has torn down several of his own
engines, and knew what oil they had used through the
years. He stated that the engines that used synth oils
had lower engine wear, and were generally cleaner
when town down after 150-200k+ miles.
He said the wear using dino oil was quite acceptable,
but not quite as good as an engine that had run synth
oil it's whole life.
Not a scientific test by any means, but I believe him
when he said the high miles synth oiled engines had
less sludge and overall wear. He didn't work for an
oil co., and had to reason to lie about it.
But for me, it varies to the vehicle, type of engine,
potential problems, etc..
I use dino oil in both of my old Ford trucks. I don't
feel synth oil is worth the extra money for those engines
as they are not as critical as the higher rev, hotter
head temp FI four banger in my Corolla.
But like I say, I paid a pretty good hunk of change
for the Corolla, and with the past sludge issues,
I consider paying an extra buck or two a quart
for the synth blend cheap insurance.
BTW, I don't use oil analysis. No need.. I can tell
if something ain't right just listening to it run. :/
Unless there is a problem to be diagnosed, I consider
an oil test as basically a waste of money.
I didn't even bother on my rebuilt Ford 300 after
the first 500 mile oil change.
What good would it do? Not much unless I had an
obvious problem like a suspected bad bearing, etc.
Being it ran great, I couldn't see wasting money
to get someone else to verify from the oil that
it was running great. Kinda silly.. :/
I'd rather save the money for future oil changes.
Sharx35
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
Block heaters, over a period of time, consume a lot of electricity. One
isn't able to plug in unless at home, as a rule.
Sharx35
> Sharx35 <sha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Well, I am probably as stingy and tight with my money as ANYONE but I
>>ONLY
>>use syn oil in my 99 Camry 6 cyl. here in Edmonton, Canada. No matter HOW
>>COLD it gets, e.g. -40, there is NO DRAG....car starts instantly. Try THAT
>>with dino oil.
>
> Don't blame the oil for that. People shouldn't live that far north. You
> have to wear clothes all the time. If you went outside in shorts you
> could
> die! How can people live like that? Water is supposed to be a liquid.
> When
> it turns into a solid form, this is a sign that human habitation is not
> a good idea.
Shorts? I don't even OWN any shorts--at least the kind that one would wear
outside or in a gym.
HLS
<nm...@wt.net> wrote in message
news:77bc8923-130e-4932...@p36g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 7, 5:51 pm, ransley <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> also there is a group of earlier toyotas
> known to sludge and ruin motors from the motors higher operating temp,
> synthetic would have been a big benefit to them. I use it, I notice a
> diference, oil is cheap compared to a new motor.
IIRC, it was not a high operating temperature that caused the sludging
in that particular series.
It was difficult to get the straight story, but Toyota said that in every
case,
the owner had not serviced the vehicle conscientiously. But, they also
lowered the oil change interval after that.
Others said that the PCV system on those cars had been revised, and
that might have been a causative factor in the sludging.
I do not believe that Toyota recommended changing types of oil to
solve the problem.
Please correct me if my memory is faltering.
HLS
>
> Block heaters, over a period of time, consume a lot of electricity. One
> isn't able to plug in unless at home, as a rule.
Oh, BS... You can heat your block for a long time for the cost of 5 litres
of
synthetic oil.
Where I got cold weather experience, our homes, hotels, and even some
parking
areas had provisions for block heaters.
Sharx35
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
The TOTAL cost of the syn oil is NOT the figure to use. One should use the
DIFFERENCE in price between SYN and DINO oil for a fair comparison.
Incredible. Someone pays 40, 50, 60 thou for a vehicle and whines and moans
about paying an extra buck a litre or so.
HLS
"Sharx35" <sha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ZGG5m.35719
> The TOTAL cost of the syn oil is NOT the figure to use. One should use
> the DIFFERENCE in price between SYN and DINO oil for a fair comparison.
> Incredible. Someone pays 40, 50, 60 thou for a vehicle and whines and
> moans about paying an extra buck a litre or so.
I didnt whine and moan. The truth is not really in you, it is?
Why would I pay extra money for a product that the manufacturer doesnt
recommend? That would be a little stupid, but maybe you would do this.
Especially when the manufacturer tells me to change oil at 5000 miles?
Did your mama have any normal children?
Toyota MDT in MO
Toyota, much like most of the asian makers, still offer the ultra lame
ILSAC GF-x (x=4 these days) oil recommendation, along with an SAE weight
(usually 5W30 until recently). Thank God for them telling me to use
ILSAC GF-4 oil, otherwise I would just buy anything off the shelf (which
would automatically be GF-4) - so what's the point, really? GF-4
certification is mostly concerned with the oil's fuel efficiency. I
couldn't care less. The other day I noticed that a bottle of olive oil
in our pantry was GF-4 certified. Whoopty. A better alternative would
be to create a specific set of oil requirements like the big 3 and most
euros do, then offer them in specification packages, i.e. Toy1 for older
cars, Toy2 for 5W20, Toy3 for 0W20 hybrid ICEs, etc. If the major lube
companies wanted to sell more oil they would have to get on board and
offer products that would get tested then meet Toyota specific certs.
Honda/Acura did it for just a couple of cars (HTO-06 spec) *and* several
companies then jumped on board and offered reasonably priced HTO-06 cert
oils, so certainly Toyota could get on the ball and at least come up
with a spec for the SAE 5W20 class that dominates their oil requirements
from about 2005-on.
The good thing is that Toyotas don't and never have required any special
level of oil technology to prevent *mechanical wear*. The bad thing is
that some of their engines would sludge faster than other manufacturers'
engines when the oil wasn't either A) changed at an appropriate
frequency for driving habits or B) designed with superior acid fighting
additives as found in some high dollar full synths RE: ACEA rated products.
Clearly the cheaper maintenance option is to use $2.75/qt oil and change
appropriately. Soccer mom driving habits require frequent oil changes
or very expensive oil. Toyota just had pushed the limits of reduced PCV
and some other design factors I don't quite understand to aid in fuel
efficiency and driveability. Other makes had plenty of sludging
problems for the same reasons, but weren't as prolific as the mass
number of post '96 5S-FEs and 1MZ-FEs. Those engines accounted for most
of the Toyota powerplants for nearly a decade. I promise you that you
can sludge a Zetec, a VTEC, a Hemi, a semi, whatever you got, with
inappropriate oil change frequency for your unique driving habits.
You are much more correct than your tough guy buddy on this topic.
Scott Dorsey
>
>IIRC, it was not a high operating temperature that caused the sludging
>in that particular series.
>
>It was difficult to get the straight story, but Toyota said that in every
>case,
>the owner had not serviced the vehicle conscientiously. But, they also
>lowered the oil change interval after that.
>
>Others said that the PCV system on those cars had been revised, and
>that might have been a causative factor in the sludging.
>
>I do not believe that Toyota recommended changing types of oil to
>solve the problem.
>
>Please correct me if my memory is faltering.
I believe that the issue was not overall high operating temperature, but
some particular places in the block where the oil passed rather slowly
across very heated metal. An oil with a higher breakdown point would prevent
the formation of sludge. An oil with better solvent characteristics would
prevent the sludge from being deposited after being formed. An oil that
was changed more often would prevent the sludge from increasing to the level
where it was deposited. Change your oil every 3,000 miles and don't worry.
Scott Dorsey
>
>Speaking of other repulsive procedures... there's a Philippine dish
>called "siopao" which is basically pork-filled bread. While visiting
>the Philippines, there was a story on the local news about the Chinese
>substituting the pork with cardboard... they'd soak cardboard in water
>overnight, then stuff that into the siopaos and sell them.
Wait, these are the people that eat balut? And they shy away at a little
bit of cardboard?
>Never heard about the human hair though... yecch.
It's a special new scientific soy sauce!
http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2004/02/19/soy-sauce-from-human-hair
>I bought some food-grade Aspergillus oryzae planning on making ethanol
>at home (basically a modified Japanese sake process) but it stinks up
>the garage too much, so I abandoned that line of experiments... but A.
>oryzae from what I hear is used in making soy sauce... maybe brew your
>own?
Dunno, but I will say that soy sauce factories don't smell so hot either.
HLS
"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message news:h38773>
> I believe that the issue was not overall high operating temperature, but
> some particular places in the block where the oil passed rather slowly
> across very heated metal. An oil with a higher breakdown point would
> prevent
> the formation of sludge. An oil with better solvent characteristics would
> prevent the sludge from being deposited after being formed. An oil that
> was changed more often would prevent the sludge from increasing to the
> level
> where it was deposited. Change your oil every 3,000 miles and don't
> worry.
> --scott
I dont know that heat alone was the answer. I am not sure that that was
ever settled openly and scientifically.
We do know that some of those engines had a tendency to form "sludge"
if run too long. It could have been heat, but also could have been
contamination
from the PCV system, or a combination of things.
At the time, IIRC, Toyota specified 7500 mile oil changes. Now they have
dropped it to 5000 miles, but still dont specify synthetic.
Hydrocarbons - ALL hydrocarbons, including synthetics - can deteriorate
if exposed to extreme conditions....moisture, oxygen, acid or acid gases,
extreme shear (VI improvers go first, but even the shorter chains can be
sheared in time), dilution by fuel, etc..
I dont challenge that with synthetics (at least some of them) you can tailor
the properties to be what you want them to be and can some up with some
very good specifications.
You could possibly match that by carefully refining petroleum oils,
selecting
ideal distillation ranges, hydrogenating, etc...But if you did this, you
would in
essence have something that was "synthetic" and that would cost darn near
as much as, or more than, the "real" synthetics.
I do believe that Toyota knew what had happened but never fully disclosed
it.
They were magnanimous in repairing the most of those cars, but they never
really totally accepted the blame.
I guess that problem was magically cured, by engineering or by oil change
specs,
and I hope it does not come back to haunt us.
When I change the oil on our Avalon and on the new Solara, the oil is clear
and
nonturbid, slightly amber, and totally freeflowing.
Since I do it myself, I will continue to do it at 3500-4000 miles, and will
bet you
a beer that I never have any lubricant related problems.
ransley
> "HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "ransley" <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:62f2b4f5-92bd-49e4-abd1-
>
> > Not extreme cold is needed to benefit, even at 20-30f oils dont flow
> > as well as they do when warm, also there is a group of earlier toyotas
> > known to sludge and ruin motors from the motors higher operating temp,
> > synthetic would have been a big benefit to them. I use it, I notice a
> > diference, oil is cheap compared to a new motor.
>
> > Talk is cheap, data isnt.
> > Oil IS cheap compared with a new motor. Our Avalon has a 6.4 quart change
> > volume
> > and recommended change mileage of 5000 or less.
> > Synthetic is no benefit to me.
>
> > data to stand behind
> > their claim.
>
>
> What kind of stupid fucking asshole pays $30,000 for a vehicle then quibbles
> over a measly view dollars re synthetic oil vs dino oil?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The guy that sells regular oil
ransley
> "Sharx35" <shar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Quc5m.34047$Db2.2172@edtnps83...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
> >news:h328na$3po$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> >>>HLS wrote:
>
> >>>> A lot of people quote the benefits of synthetic, but dont have a bit of
> >>>> data to stand behind
> >>>> their claim.
>
> >>>Where would they get that data? It doesn't exist. Unless you want data
> >>>from Amsoil dealers, LOL.
>
> >> And there is the rub.
>
> >> There probably ARE some people who have done good controlled studies
> >> on the subject, but they aren't going to be telling anyone about them
> >> because that's valuable proprietary information.
> >> --scott
> >> --
> >> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
> > Well, I am probably as stingy and tight with my money as ANYONE but I
> > ONLY use syn oil in my 99 Camry 6 cyl. here in Edmonton, Canada. No matter
> > HOW COLD it gets, e.g. -40, there is NO DRAG....car starts instantly. Try
> > THAT with dino oil.
>
> > Going through Death Valley...no oil breakdown. Try THAT with dino oil.
>
> Fair enough. If you experience temperatures that low, then synthetic is
> one
>
> - Show quoted text -
Block heaters cost to much to run
Michael
> Michael <mrdarr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Speaking of other repulsive procedures... there's a Philippine dish
> >called "siopao" which is basically pork-filled bread. While visiting
> >the Philippines, there was a story on the local news about the Chinese
> >substituting the pork with cardboard... they'd soak cardboard in water
> >overnight, then stuff that into the siopaos and sell them.
>
> Wait, these are the people that eat balut? And they shy away at a little
> bit of cardboard?
If we wanted cardboard, we'd order cardboard.
> >Never heard about the human hair though... yecch.
>
> It's a special new scientific soy sauce!http://www.sinosplice.com/life/archives/2004/02/19/soy-sauce-from-hum...
I guess their problem is they forgot to wash the hair first.
Otherwise, hey, give the customer a choice, eh?
Imagine what they could do with chicken feathers!
>
> >I bought some food-grade Aspergillus oryzae planning on making ethanol
> >at home (basically a modified Japanese sake process) but it stinks up
> >the garage too much, so I abandoned that line of experiments... but A.
> >oryzae from what I hear is used in making soy sauce... maybe brew your
> >own?
>
> Dunno, but I will say that soy sauce factories don't smell so hot either.
I believe it! Is it a kind of heavy musty smell? That's what I get
from Aspergillus oryzae. Took a couple of months for the smell to
completely dissipate from my garage.
Michael
HLS
"Michael" <mrda...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:d856eb20-eb1f-4b47->
I believe they hydrolyze it to carnitine.
Ray O
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
>
> "Michael" <mrda...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:d856eb20-eb1f-4b47->
> >Never heard about the human hair though... yecch.
>
> I believe they hydrolyze it to carnitine.
Does that make it taste better?
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
john
certification with the EPA. And instead of re-certify all their
engines it's probably easier to reduce the oil change interval.
And my guess is that's precisely why Toyota reduced the oil change
interval from 7500 miles to 5000 miles in 2004 for ALL it's models --
because they're more likely to sludge. This happens during a time when
GM and Honda extended to 12,000 miles and European cars on synthetics
were running 15K-20K mile intervals for years.
john
the best sales month in 2009 for Audi.
Said Johan de Nysschen, President, Audi of America. “The trend is
clear: Audi is outperforming the rest of the imported luxury car
market on a percentage basis. And this is happening without
extraordinary discounting and other gimmicks. It is a testament to the
long-term momentum Audi has developed and the caliber of our products
in the freshest fleet out there.”
So we'll see.
john
5SFE engine?
john
blend engine oil?
And if synthetic falls within dino range, what does it mean?
On Jul 5, 12:18 pm, Built_Well <Built_Well_Toy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Finally, I think the numbers that Blackstone provides for the "Universal
> Averages" for the Toyota aluminum 2AZ-FE engine are from many oil samples
> tested with an average distance of 4,600 miles for the many samples sent
> in by their customers.
Toyota MDT in MO
> Interesting! Audi is a small division of VW, but June happens to be
> the best sales month in 2009 for Audi.
>
> clear: Audi is outperforming the rest of the imported luxury car
> market on a percentage basis. And this is happening without
> extraordinary discounting and other gimmicks. It is a testament to the
> long-term momentum Audi has developed and the caliber of our products
>
> So we'll see.
>
>
>
> On Jul 9, 7:21 pm, Toyota MDT in MO <toyotamdti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Many eurotrash engines truly require "high HTHS" oils that can only be
>> engineered synthetically from the best base stocks, along with severe
>> sludge prevention additives to not self destruct in short order.
>> Camshafts on some of the high tech and/or 5 valve VW/Audis are prone to
>> failure with underspeced oil for the application. I say all the more
>> reason not to buy those cars :-)
>>
>> --
>> Toyota MDT in MO
>>
>
>
I'm sure their business model works well for them. I wouldn't suggest
that somebody who isn't committed to expensive maintenance buy one
though. Naturally I see under maintained Audis and $7/quart-oil-needin'
VWs that settle for a $29.99 oil change all the time. And there's
something about a 40 hour labor time to remove their bi turbo and V8
engines that kicks me the wrong way, from a tech's standpoint at least.
Eurotrash was a little harsh, but from my perspective that's all I see
them as. I realize that they are technical marvels, but can't see how
they could be considered practical or competitive for the extra $ and
minimal gains all that crammed in technology yields compared to some
well built, cheaper, simpler competition from the US and (mostly) Japan.
Toyota MDT in MO
Sidestepping your question by just concerning changes to the top of the
engine, the valve cover and baffling is different, the PCV valve has
been relocated and is a different part number, and my unscientific
observations are that the PCV orifice is smaller on the 97-up. I
mention these changes because I believe PCV restriction is a major
contributor to increased sludging. As far as a physical difference that
might have anything to do with oil flow or drainback, the 97-up 5S-FE
was tilted significantly compared to the upright 96-back orientation.
The oil pan was angled to compensate. Many changes in head design and
manifolds, etc.
All this said, older 5S engines would coke or sludge, but it wasn't made
out to be as big of a deal. Plenty of exhaust valve seals got destroyed
on 3S and 5S engines, mostly the ones that had at least a darkish brown
varnish on all internal metal parts. My personal engines never looked
like that inside. Go figure.
Sharx35
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
One MORE than yo' mama, apparently.
Sharx35
"john" <john...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0933dc9f-78c4-4ebb...@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Toyota made the passages in the block smaller....in order to raise the
operating temperature to give better environmental figures. Another reason
why environuts are whack jobs.
HLS
"Ray O" <roki...@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
>>
>> I believe they hydrolyze it to carnitine.
>
> Does that make it taste better?
> --
>
> Ray O
It is used for food additives, flavoring, IIRC>
HLS
"Sharx35" <sha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:2qY5m.34503
>> Did your mama have any normal children?
>
> One MORE than yo' mama, apparently.
Dont talk that way about my brother...
Scott Dorsey
>So why would a 1997 5SFE engine's oil flow more slowly than a 1996
>5SFE engine?
That's the question, and to find out you're gonna have to cut it open
and see what they changed in the design of the oil galleries. I bet
it's a very minor configuration change that had a big affect. Maybe
there's a sharp corner that used to be rounded or a rounded corner that
used to be sharp. It's going to be something that trivial-looking.
ransley
> "Sharx35" <shar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Is it 1000w? I pay 0.16 per 1000w, so leave it on all night, I will
say 6 hrs, thats 1$ a day, 30$ a month. My syn oil only costs 30$ more
and lasts about 6 months the way I have been driving, So Syn oil is
better it costs less than a block heater to run by a factor of 5x. You
still dont factor in its superior performance at high temp, reduced
friction. And what does a block heater cost and cost to install, I
guess you figure its free. 0w30 Mobil One is what I am using, about
60$ a full change.
Ray
<Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Is it 1000w? I pay 0.16 per 1000w, so leave it on all night, I will
>say 6 hrs, thats 1$ a day, 30$ a month. My syn oil only costs 30$ more
>and lasts about 6 months the way I have been driving, So Syn oil is
>better it costs less than a block heater to run by a factor of 5x. You
>still dont factor in its superior performance at high temp, reduced
>friction. And what does a block heater cost and cost to install, I
>guess you figure its free. 0w30 Mobil One is what I am using, about
>60$ a full change.
300 watts gets about 20 degrees Celsius rise in 4 hours. Put it on a
timer. 1.2 KWH $.20 a day or $6 per month. Does not need to be run
in the summer. Warn engine starts easier (gasoline vaporizes more
easily) and probably uses less gasoline on startup.
HLS
"ransley" <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1deaffb-9537-48eb...@t33g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
. You
still dont factor in its superior performance at high temp, reduced
friction. And what does a block heater cost and cost to install, I
guess you figure its free. 0w30 Mobil One is what I am using, about
60$ a full change.
Use what you like. You have NO data on "superior" performance.
If you live in Lower Slobbovia, and the polar bears freeze to death,
there, then by all means use your choice of low viscosity oils.
Ray O
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
I'll second the yecch!
Sharx35
"Ray O" <roki...@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
I wonder if the posters who "yecch" about human hair being hydrolyzed into a
food item have similar reservations about "going down" there...orally.
dsi1
> dsi1 <ds...@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote:
>> If you can't handle wheat, you probably should stay away from any bottle
>> of that stuff. I've never seen a peanut soy sauce. Sounds icky. I prefer
>> Aloha brand shoyu. This is a fake sauce and one that many folks would
>> say sounds icky. :-)
>
> I grew up with Aloha Shoyu and it's probably one of the better Japanese
> style sauces. They have limited distribution on the mainland.
It's probably the #1 shoyu sold in this little town. The stuff was
developed in Hawaii after the war to speed up shoyu production. Instead
of waiting for friendly micro-organisms to break down the soy/wheat
mash, heavy-duty acid is used instead. What a concept! I think they
should use "One taste and it's Aloha!" as their motto. :-)
Human hair shoyu sounds like your standard internet hoax. What would
lend some credibility to this story would be some statement from the FDA.
>
> There are some good peanut-based soy sauces out there.... ask your local
> Vietnamese market for "vegetarian soy sauce" and they can probably find
> something of that style.
I've never heard of this before but I will be looking out for peanut
shoyu. Speaking of VN stores, I like the Trung Nguyen coffee - it's
remarkably smooth with a neat chocolate-like note. However, the little
Vietnamese coffee makers has got to be one of the worst designs ever for
a brewing system - to slow for Americans. Makes you want to drink tea
instead. :-)
>
> The Chinese have perfected processes for making soy sauce out of human hair
> and other repulsive procedures....
> --scott
>
>
Scott Dorsey
>
>I wonder if the posters who "yecch" about human hair being hydrolyzed into a
>food item have similar reservations about "going down" there...orally.
It's different when you know whose hair it is.
Scott Dorsey
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> dsi1 <ds...@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote:
>>> If you can't handle wheat, you probably should stay away from any bottle
>>> of that stuff. I've never seen a peanut soy sauce. Sounds icky. I prefer
>>> Aloha brand shoyu. This is a fake sauce and one that many folks would
>>> say sounds icky. :-)
>>
>> I grew up with Aloha Shoyu and it's probably one of the better Japanese
>> style sauces. They have limited distribution on the mainland.
>
>It's probably the #1 shoyu sold in this little town. The stuff was
>developed in Hawaii after the war to speed up shoyu production. Instead
>of waiting for friendly micro-organisms to break down the soy/wheat
>mash, heavy-duty acid is used instead. What a concept! I think they
>should use "One taste and it's Aloha!" as their motto. :-)
Aloha used to advertise that they were the only soy sauce producer in
the US. Now Kikkoman is making soy sauce in a plant in the midwest
somewhere, and there are a couple small production outfits. There's a
Vietnamese guy in the Washington DC area who sells soy sauce at the
farmers markets up there.
And I do seriously think it's as good as most of the Japanese-style sauces
out there.
>Human hair shoyu sounds like your standard internet hoax. What would
>lend some credibility to this story would be some statement from the FDA.
I posted a cite to one of the Chinese websites. Here is an archive.org
backup of the Xinhua site:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041208070045/http://www.interfax.com/com?id=5680503&item=search
>> There are some good peanut-based soy sauces out there.... ask your local
>> Vietnamese market for "vegetarian soy sauce" and they can probably find
>> something of that style.
>
>I've never heard of this before but I will be looking out for peanut
>shoyu. Speaking of VN stores, I like the Trung Nguyen coffee - it's
>remarkably smooth with a neat chocolate-like note. However, the little
>Vietnamese coffee makers has got to be one of the worst designs ever for
>a brewing system - to slow for Americans. Makes you want to drink tea
>instead. :-)
Blame the French for that, they came up with it!
ransley
> "ransley" <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
What is google broken, google data, how about the fact that a major
percentage of engine wear is on startup, or is everything a myth to
you, you must be a dino oil salesman.
HLS
"ransley" <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message news:9e2e01e0-6006-
What is google broken, google data, how about the fact that a major
percentage of engine wear is on startup, or is everything a myth to
you, you must be a dino oil salesman.
***********
I am not a dino oil salesman. I am a research chemist, now retired.
If you quote a "fact" like "p;ercentage of engine wear is on startup", then
you need data to back it up. .Numbers, not just repearting what you have
heard or read. What IS the percentage of engine wear on startup? With
synthetic and with dino. How were the data obtained (conditions, methods,
population).
Question every perceived truth.. Evaluate the credibility of every perceived
myth.
dsi1
I have seen this one. I wish there were more current info on this from
other news agencies. Info is pretty sketchy, it seems.
>
>>> There are some good peanut-based soy sauces out there.... ask your local
>>> Vietnamese market for "vegetarian soy sauce" and they can probably find
>>> something of that style.
>> I've never heard of this before but I will be looking out for peanut
>> shoyu. Speaking of VN stores, I like the Trung Nguyen coffee - it's
>> remarkably smooth with a neat chocolate-like note. However, the little
>> Vietnamese coffee makers has got to be one of the worst designs ever for
>> a brewing system - to slow for Americans. Makes you want to drink tea
>> instead. :-)
>
> Blame the French for that, they came up with it!
You got a point right there! :-)
> --scott
Ray O
"dsi1" <ds...@spamnet.com> wrote in message
news:qKK6m.5240$O26....@newsfe18.iad...
<snipped>
>>> I've never heard of this before but I will be looking out for peanut
>>> shoyu. Speaking of VN stores, I like the Trung Nguyen coffee - it's
>>> remarkably smooth with a neat chocolate-like note. However, the little
>>> Vietnamese coffee makers has got to be one of the worst designs ever for
>>> a brewing system - to slow for Americans. Makes you want to drink tea
>>> instead. :-)
>>
>> Blame the French for that, they came up with it!
>
> You got a point right there! :-)
>
>> --scott
Have you tried the Kopi Luwak (A.K.A. civet cat or weasel) coffee sold at
the Vietnamese-coffee.com site? Is it worth $47 to $70 for 3.5 oz. of
beans?
The first person to roast and brew that coffee must have been REALLY
jonesin' for his cuppa Joe!
dsi1
>
> Have you tried the Kopi Luwak (A.K.A. civet cat or weasel) coffee sold at
> the Vietnamese-coffee.com site? Is it worth $47 to $70 for 3.5 oz. of
> beans?
>
> The first person to roast and brew that coffee must have been REALLY
> jonesin' for his cuppa Joe!
I could go for some right now! Not Kopi Luwak - just plain joe. :-)
I have not had the pleasure of drinking a Kopu Luwak although the Trung
Nguyen site offers a special coffee that has been treated with enzymes
to replicate a bean's travel through a weasel's gut called "Legendee."
At $17 for 9 oz. I'd probably just get a pound of Kona. That's a smooth
cup too. :-)
Ray O
"dsi1" <ds...@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote in message
news:SgM6m.3779$lE6....@newsfe05.iad...
Aah, a fellow coffee lover! I've had Kona but not Kopi Luwak. I don't mind
spending a little extra for good coffee but I don't know if I'd care to
spend THAT much extra!
dsi1
I'm a one-cup-a-day coffee lover, but not a connoisseur. In this age of
harsh, burnt, Starbuck's coffee, I'm looking for a smooth cup of Joe and
that's pretty much all. I used to always grind my own beans but nowdays
it's just faster to drink what my parents did - canned coffee. Most of
the coffee I drink is OK or good, a few are bad, and some are a real
pleasure. That suits me just fine. Have one on me pal! :-)
Ray O
I probably drink 3 or 4 cups a day, 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon.
I used to drink a lot more, but the neighbors and my wife complained when I
was running air ratchets or impact guns at 3 AM.
I don't consider myself to be a coffee snob, but most canned coffee has a
chemical taste to me so canned coffees are not my first choice. Starbucks
is not high on my list either because of the burnt taste that you mentioned.
A friend of mine has a small coffee roasting business, and his coffee is
very good and smooth. His coffee is a little pricey so we end up getting
whatever Costco has in whole bean and get my friend's coffee for the
holidays.
Michael
> "ransley" <Mark_Rans...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message news:9e2e01e0-6006-
Well said.
To paraphrase what my fluid mechanics professor once said: if
everyone knows something is true... chances are no one knows the
truth.
Michael
HLS
<webw...@neonfeather.com> wrote in message
news:i2kn55t3alroodogq...@4ax.com...
> Toyota MDT in MO <toyota...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>HLS wrote:
>>>
> I had about 125,000 miles on a 93 V6. Sent oil for analysis. Like a
> trip to the doctor for the 60 and over checkups I thought.
> Good for that kind of thing?
> I was happy, and the cost is reasonable.
If it makes you happy, do it.. An oil change costs less.
Nothing in an oil analysis is going to make you pull your engine
and do an overhaul.
Is it worth it? Up to you.
HLS
"Sharx35" <sha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:jAz6m.36114
>
> I wonder if the posters who "yecch" about human hair being hydrolyzed into
> a food item have similar reservations about "going down" there...orally.
Dont complain while the flavor lasts..
Maybe the amino acid that caused the uproar was cysteine rather than
carnitine.
The lower regions are probably used to make fish sauce.
Sharx35
"HLS" <nos...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
But it would TASTE like chicken!
>
ROFL!
Steve
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Umm.... you're really not going to be able to make _any_ judgement at all
>> with a single test on each oil.
> ========
>
> Umm, I'm less interested in finding a winner than safely extending my
> OCIs (oil change intervals) to 6,000 or 7,000 miles :-P
ANY decent synthetic oil will do THAT. No need for a UOA unless you're
interested in wear metals too.