Dirty oil after change?
Neil Williams
with her to pick up her car, I took a look at the dipstick.
I was very surprised to see that the oil still looked pretty dirty.
I've never checked her oil immediately after a change before
(she has an '89 prelude), but I know that my oil looks clear and
brand-new after a change. Unfortunately, I did not check her oil
prior to the change.
Questioning the mechanic, he said something to the effect that you
can never get out all the old oil and it mixes with the new to make
it look dirty. I didn't buy his story, and suspect we were charged
for service not performed, or they didn't change the filter.
Is the mechanic correct, or am I right to be suspicious? Oh, previously
the oil hadn't been changed for about 5k miles.
Thanks,
--Neil
--
Neil Williams: ne...@informix.com
Seen on my last trip on United: "If you are seated in an exit row
and can not (sic) read this card... please notify a crew member."
Steve Methley
> My SO recently had her oil changed at a local gas station. When I went
> with her to pick up her car, I took a look at the dipstick.
> I was very surprised to see that the oil still looked pretty dirty....
> .. but I know that my oil looks clear and brand-new after a change...
> ..for service not performed, or they didn't change the filter...
Well, I do my own oil changes on three cars and each time the oil is clear for
weeks/months afterwards. I do use a flushing oil every other change (not
additive, real flushing oil) on the two with hydraulic tappets however, but the
other is just as clean. The cars are all high mileage, one is >120k miles.
I'd be wondering whether they didn't change the filter too.... Try smelling
the oil ! Used oil has a very distinctive 'burnt' odour compared to new oil
IMHO, due to dissolved carbon and petrol.
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Steve.
Peter Shyvers
>My SO recently had her oil changed at a local gas station. When I went
>with her to pick up her car, I took a look at the dipstick.
>
>I've never checked her oil immediately after a change before
>
>Questioning the mechanic, he said something to the effect that you
>can never get out all the old oil and it mixes with the new to make
>it look dirty. I didn't buy his story, and suspect we were charged
>for service not performed, or they didn't change the filter.
>
>Is the mechanic correct, or am I right to be suspicious? Oh, previously
>the oil hadn't been changed for about 5k miles.
>
dirtied as soon as the mechanic runs the engine to test the oil filter gasket
for leakage.
Remember, that oil clings to every part in the engine, and the sump won't
"wash" clean *all* the miniscule sediments that accumulate there when the
oil plug is pulled. There's also deposits everywhere in the engine.
What I did on my '69 Firebird when I first bought it (used) was run a 50-50
mixture of kerosene and 30W for about a minute, and then immediately drained
the crankcase. The engine oil thereafter was whistle-clean, and I never had
oil-burning in the next 7 years that I had it...
I wouldn't try this on a more modern car though.
Michael J. Kelley
> My SO recently had her oil changed at a local gas station. When I went
> with her to pick up her car, I took a look at the dipstick.
>
> I was very surprised to see that the oil still looked pretty dirty.
> I've never checked her oil immediately after a change before
> (she has an '89 prelude), but I know that my oil looks clear and
> brand-new after a change. Unfortunately, I did not check her oil
> prior to the change.
>
> Questioning the mechanic, he said something to the effect that you
> can never get out all the old oil and it mixes with the new to make
> it look dirty. I didn't buy his story, and suspect we were charged
> for service not performed, or they didn't change the filter.
>
> Is the mechanic correct, or am I right to be suspicious? Oh, previously
> the oil hadn't been changed for about 5k miles.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Neil
Next you time you need the oil changed, do it yourself and check it. Then
you'll know wether he was BS'n you or not.
Mike Kelley
HRB Systems
St. College, Pa.
###############################################################################
DoD # 645 Go Nittany Lions !!! Beat The Bearcats!!!
###############################################################################
HERBERT DASILVA
>In article <1992Sep7.1...@informix.com> ne...@informix.com (Neil Williams) writes:
>>My SO recently had her oil changed at a local gas station. When I went
>>with her to pick up her car, I took a look at the dipstick.
>>
>>I was very surprised to see that the oil still looked pretty dirty.
>>I've never checked her oil immediately after a change before
>>
>>Questioning the mechanic, he said something to the effect that you
>>can never get out all the old oil and it mixes with the new to make
>>it look dirty. I didn't buy his story, and suspect we were charged
>>for service not performed, or they didn't change the filter.
>>
>>Is the mechanic correct, or am I right to be suspicious? Oh, previously
>>the oil hadn't been changed for about 5k miles.
>The mechanic is right. If the old oil is visibly dirty, the new oil will be
>dirtied as soon as the mechanic runs the engine to test the oil filter gasket
>for leakage.
If the oil was REALLY ripe, it could be a light brown after an oil and
filter change. But it should not be so dark that you can't read the
words on the dipstick.
>Remember, that oil clings to every part in the engine, and the sump won't
>"wash" clean *all* the miniscule sediments that accumulate there when the
>oil plug is pulled. There's also deposits everywhere in the engine.
If the oil is changed every 5000 miles or less, this should not be the
case, since the detergents in the oil will suspend or carry to the filter
any such deposits. The key is to warm the engine up to operating
temperature (to ensure suspension of deposits), and then drain it
completely. Many oil change places just wait until the bulk of the oil
is out, then close up the pan, and slap on a new filter, and fill 'er up.
If you want to maximize each oil change, wait until the oil slows to a
drip, and change the filter on every oil change.
If the oil is too dark for your tastes, run it about 100 miles, and then
change it again. It can't hurt, only help. And I hate to say it, but if
you want to be sure it gets done right, you've got to do it yourself.
Herb "Mopar Maniac" DaSilva
Hugo Bueno
]ne...@informix.com (Neil Williams) in <1992Sep7.1...@informix.com>:
]
]> My SO recently had her oil changed at a local gas station. When I went
]> with her to pick up her car, I took a look at the dipstick.
]> .. but I know that my oil looks clear and brand-new after a change...
]> ..for service not performed, or they didn't change the filter...
]
]Well, I do my own oil changes on three cars and each time the oil is clear for
]weeks/months afterwards. I do use a flushing oil every other change (not
]additive, real flushing oil) on the two with hydraulic tappets however, but the
]other is just as clean. The cars are all high mileage, one is >120k miles.
]
]the oil ! Used oil has a very distinctive 'burnt' odour compared to new oil
]IMHO, due to dissolved carbon and petrol.
As a counter-data point, and one which I venture to guess
is much closer to reality.....
I've done countless oil changes on cars and I have YET to see
one that has clear oil after the change. This even includes
changing the filter and using engine flushes.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hugo Bueno |Delphi : MRGOOD CIS: 71211,3662
Fanwood, NJ |Internet: hu...@bluehau.bubble.org
CoCo 3 UUCP |UUCP : ...!s4mjs!bluehau!hugo
Ted Brooks
>s...@otter.hpl.hp.com (Steve Methley) says:
>]ne...@informix.com (Neil Williams) in <1992Sep7.1...@informix.com>:
>]
>]> My SO recently had her oil changed at a local gas station. When I went
>]> with her to pick up her car, I took a look at the dipstick.
>]> I was very surprised to see that the oil still looked pretty dirty....
>]> .. but I know that my oil looks clear and brand-new after a change...
>]> ..for service not performed, or they didn't change the filter...
>]
>
>is much closer to reality.....
>
>I've done countless oil changes on cars and I have YET to see
>one that has clear oil after the change. This even includes
>changing the filter and using engine flushes.
To counter your counter-data :-) my experience is, it depends. In my cars,
the oil & filter is changed every 3K miles. I have found that the first 1k
or so after a change, it's hard to check the oil level because the the oil
is almost too clear to see on the dipstick. I basically have to look at
where the dipstick is wet vs. dry. At 3k, my oil is a nice medium brown -
never black. Of course, the sludge buildup under the valve covers is
negligible, so there's not much contamination of the new oil.
On the other hand, I have changed oil for people whose engines were
basically sludge warehouses. The oil will look dirty 10 minutes after you
start the car - especially if they decide to "save money" by not buying a
new filter. The sludge and/or leftover oil in the filter will dirty up
the new oil in a heartbeat.
Ted Brooks
______________________________________________________________________
| Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own, and do not reflect |
| those of my employer. Advice is free, but you get what you pay for. |
| ________ |
| _____| 1955 |_______ |
| / Chevrolet / |
| /______ BelAir _____/ |
| |________| |
|______________________________________________________________________|
24241-fusco
I just noticed on my new ('89) 5.0 Mustang that
there are 2 oil drain plugs. One in the back which
drains most of the oil but there is one forward that
also drains the last 1/2 quart or so. I didn't realize
this until my second oil change (and read the manual carefully).
(weird oil pan design but maybe not uncommon......??)
BTW- the oil stays clean for the first 1K miles or so.....
HERBERT DASILVA
>As a counter-data point, and one which I venture to guess
>is much closer to reality.....
Depends on who's reality you're talking about... :-)
>I've done countless oil changes on cars and I have YET to see
>one that has clear oil after the change. This even includes
>changing the filter and using engine flushes.
>Hugo Bueno
Honestly, it sounds to me like you're not changing your oil often enough.
Of the countless oil changes I've done, on cars I've had long term
contact with (even non-Mopars - really!), an oil change every 4-5000
miles yields oil that is nearly crystal clean up to about 1000 miles (at
which point it is browning, but still transparent). And I NEVER use oil
flush, even for a dirty motor. I feel it is much less risky to change
the oil AGAIN after only a couple hundred miles, letting the oil's
detergent do the work, than use oil flush. Oil flush just breaks down
the viscosity of the oil too much for me to trust it in my engine...
Herb "Mopar Maniac" DaSilva
Jim Vienneau - Sun Microsystems
>hu...@bluehau.bubble.org (Hugo Bueno) writes:
>>I've done countless oil changes on cars and I have YET to see
>>one that has clear oil after the change. This even includes
>>changing the filter and using engine flushes.
>
>>Hugo Bueno
>
> Honestly, it sounds to me like you're not changing your oil often enough.
You're both missing the mark here. Clean oil is not good oil. It's the
oils job to suspend particles. If your oil gets dirty sooner, it's only
becasue it's doing a better job or there is more material to suspend.
Some engines are just looser than others and have more blow-by. Also,
seasonal changes make a difference. Up here in the cold north, the choke
stays closed longer in the winter months. The rich mixtures cause more
soot which also darkens the oil. In January, my freshly changed oil
turns dark in less than 1K miles.
The only way to tell if your oil is still doing it's job is to have it
chemically analyzed. I used to do this from time to time, but don't
bother now. My opinion (everyone has one!) on oil is:
1) All namebrand "SG" rated oils are pretty much the same, buy for price.
2) All namebrand oil filters are suitable for the 3 to 5k change interval.
3) Synthetics are better than petro based, but are not necessary for the
average driver (racing, towing, or other high load duties is a
different story).
4) Change the oil and filter every 3 to 5k and you will not have any
oil induced failures.
Everyone also has these stories: I've driven every car I've ever owned
well over 100K with no problems. The last was a Buick V6 that had 172K on it
and was still going strong.
The truth is: LACK OF MAINTENANCE is what kills most engines, not what brand
of oil you use or if it's changed at 2K or 5K. Most people just don't
seem to change it at all or at 20 or 30k when they think of it. This is
doubly true for automatic transmission fluid.
The other truth is: trust no one to work on your car. Dealers and garages
are there to make a buck off you, they don't care if you get 50K or 250K
out of your car. The quick lube places WILL NOT grease your car (they
know you can't tell) and may or may not damage the drain plug, replace the
filter, etc. The dealers and garages will misdiagnose your problem and replace
good parts. When they find this didn't fix the problem, they will claim
that the already replaced parts were bad too. The auto repair and
maintenance industry is as crooked as they get (OK, there's probably a
few honest ones, but I haven't found one yet).
Sorry, I kind of got off the track a bit (a bit jaded I guess, or maybe it's
experienced). The bottom line is: Do reasonable maintenance, make sure it's
done right (ie, do it yourself), and you'll be sitting pretty. Don't worry
about the oil getting dark, it's just doing it's job.
--
Jim Vienneau, Sun Microsystems Inc - Billerica, MA
Email: jvie...@east.sun.com Amateur Radio: WB1B
Good old Ma Bell (well old anyway): (508)671-0372
Les Bartel
|> Just a thought:
|> I just noticed on my new ('89) 5.0 Mustang that
|> there are 2 oil drain plugs. One in the back which
|> drains most of the oil but there is one forward that
|> also drains the last 1/2 quart or so. I didn't realize
Ditto for the 81 mustang 4.2 liter. I was very concerned
after draining only 1/2 to 1 quart. (I saw the front plug
first.) "What!!!! I check the oil regularly, and it has
never been more than 1/2 quart low!!!!
BTW, has anyone else had their 4.2 liter engine eat main
bearings for lunch? I had to replace mine every 30-35K
miles (symptom - low oil pressure). Cause: bad line boring
(crankshaft bearings don't line up).
- les
--
Les Bartel les...@naomi.b23b.ingr.com
Dazix, An Intergraph Company uunet!ingr!b23b!naomi!lester
Huntsville, AL (205) 730-8537
There are three kinds of people in the world:
Those who can count, and those who can't.
Chuck Fry
>The truth is: LACK OF MAINTENANCE is what kills most engines, not what brand
>of oil you use or if it's changed at 2K or 5K. Most people just don't
>seem to change it at all or at 20 or 30k when they think of it. This is
>doubly true for automatic transmission fluid.
Amen. My roommate is this way. She wouldn't even take her bomb to a
quick-lube place if I didn't pester her about it twice a year, or even
offer to take it myself. (I won't change oil on her car anymore...
Taurus oil filters are a brass-plated bitch to get out!)
>The other truth is: trust no one to work on your car. Dealers and garages
>are there to make a buck off you, they don't care if you get 50K or 250K
>out of your car. The quick lube places WILL NOT grease your car (they
>know you can't tell) and may or may not damage the drain plug, replace the
>filter, etc. The dealers and garages will misdiagnose your problem and replace
>good parts. When they find this didn't fix the problem, they will claim
>that the already replaced parts were bad too. The auto repair and
>maintenance industry is as crooked as they get (OK, there's probably a
>few honest ones, but I haven't found one yet).
Um, if you hadn't noticed, there aren't many places to grease on a
late-model car. My '89 Mustang had zero grease fittings as delivered.
That's right, exactly none. (Since then I've installed greasable tie
rod ends, and will eventually get greasable ball joints.)
I do check my roommate's car when the quick-lube place is done with
it, to make sure that it has had clean oil put in. Due to her
past maintenance habits, the oil gets dirty quickly, so I have to
check within the first day or two.
I'm embarrassed to say how many times a shop has hit me up for
maintenance that either wasn't necessary or couldn't have been done in
the first place (e.g. "adjusting the play in the rack-and-pinion" on
my Mustang: no such adjustment exists!). I used to buy it, but I hit
my limit when a well respected shop around here tried to sell me a new
fan belt, when I had replaced it myself just 3 months earlier!
And they try to pull these stunts on a gearhead! I can imagine what
the, um, automotively challenged must feel like when they receive this
treatment.
There is a general lack of competence in the auto repair business,
which is equalled only by the lack of respect it shows for its
customers. (Which lack of respect is reflected by the customers back
to the shops...) I get tempted to go into the business every now and
then, but I don't think it's worth the hassle.
>Sorry, I kind of got off the track a bit (a bit jaded I guess, or maybe it's
>experienced). The bottom line is: Do reasonable maintenance, make sure it's
>done right (ie, do it yourself), and you'll be sitting pretty. Don't worry
>about the oil getting dark, it's just doing it's job.
But I can't do everything myself... yet.
Anyone out there know of a good home alignment setup?
-- Chuck Fry Chu...@charon.arc.nasa.gov
Tired of being overcharged for a 15-minute job
Tony Konashenok
was fixing a leak from my gearbox and removed the engine oil pan instead of
stripping down the tranny. Gee, what a shit was in there! Now, with the clean pan,
the oil stays light much longer.
--
Tony Konashenok a...@hafnium.cchem.berkeley.edu (510)527-7524 (home)
University of California, Berkeley (510)642-5831 (office)
Strauss research group, Latimer Hall, UC Berkeley, Berkeley CA 94720, U.S.A.
& Esquivel
Considering that the oils job is to clean as much as lubricate I would
take the dirty oil as a good sign. I use Mobil 1 synthetic oil and that
only stays clear for a day or two after an oil change. I say don't worry
about it. Just make sure you get it changed regularly and you have nothing
to worry about.
Frank
Ron Bense
>But I can't do everything myself... yet.
>Anyone out there know of a good home alignment setup?
NTW does a pretty good job at a fair price, and when I got mine done,
the technician had no qualms about me being there and he explained the
entire procedure and what was wrong and what he could and could not
fix as he was working on the car. (I had a pulling problem that was
part alignment, part tire problems, and his fix with the alignment fixed
everything else when the tires were also changed, which they gave me
50% credit for after 22k on Dunlop D60 M2s.) All in all, NTW gets my
recommendation for good work, without needlessly doing things that don't
need to be done. And an extra, nothing else 'broke' since then, that
wasn't directly my own fault or a regular maintenance item. Could have
something to do with teh fact that they only do brakes, shocks and struts,
alignments, and, I think, mufflers.
Ron
Potassium Benzoate included as a preserver.
Sean Reifschneider
>hu...@bluehau.bubble.org (Hugo Bueno) writes:
>>one that has clear oil after the change. This even includes
>>changing the filter and using engine flushes.
>
> miles yields oil that is nearly crystal clean up to about 1000 miles (at
> which point it is browning, but still transparent). And I NEVER use oil
On my RX-7, I change the oil every 3-4K miles, and for the next 1000 miles it
is so light that I can't see the mark on the stick unless I hold it up to the
light and look for the higher reflectativity of the oil. At about 3K miles
it's fairly dark on the stick, and when I dump it it's pretty nasty.
Sean
Dan Harling
>are there to make a buck off you, they don't care if you get 50K or 250K
>out of your car. The quick lube places WILL NOT grease your car (they
>know you can't tell) and may or may not damage the drain plug, replace the
>filter, etc. The dealers and garages will misdiagnose your problem and replace
>good parts. When they find this didn't fix the problem, they will claim
>that the already replaced parts were bad too. The auto repair and
>maintenance industry is as crooked as they get (OK, there's probably a
>few honest ones, but I haven't found one yet).
>Jim Vienneau, Sun Microsystems Inc - Billerica, MA
It's a bit of a hike for you, but I have gone to the Jiffy Lube in
Beverly, MA for about two years now. I always watch their work, and
shoot the breeze with them in the bay. Of course, bringing in a '70
Challenger or a '66 Fury works well as a conversation-starter. I
haven't seen them leave anything out even once, so I don't lose any
sleep if I take my eye off them for a minute or two.
The hardest part is finding a garage or mechanic or whatever that you
can trust, and the best way to do that is to find someone who you can
talk shop with, so that they *like* working for you. It has worked for
me.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling (har...@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp. Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA 01960 PictureTel, but they ought to be!
Tom Leone
:
: >But I can't do everything myself... yet.
:
: >Anyone out there know of a good home alignment setup?
I posted something on this quite a while ago. I'll re-post
it here:
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm only going to cover the difficult part of an alignment:
measurement. I will assume that you know the basics (which nuts
and bolts to manipulate, etc.). Also, you should make sure that
the wheels are "seated", by rolling car forward and back, and
jouncing up and down. Also, of course, everything should be
done on a level surface (check with a "bubble" level).
The key to my method is recognizing how accurate you must be.
On my car, the tolerances are a few tenths of a degree. If your
wheel diameter is about 15 inches, that means you must measure a
displacement of the rim of 15 inches times the tangent of a few
tenths of a degree. That's 0.052 inches (for 0.2 degrees), or
1.33 millimeters. I use a clear plastic ruler (with millimeter
markings), which I believe gives me an accuracy within half a
millimeter.
Start out with the camber. Simply hang a plumb bob (a weight on
a string) over the fender. The string should be right in front
of the wheel hub. Measure the distance between the string and
the wheel rim, at both top and bottom of rim. Subtract the two,
and divide by the distance between the two measurement points.
Take the tangent, and you have the camber (in degrees or radians
depending on your calculator).
After adjusting camber (and re-seating wheels each time), you
can adjust toe. The concept is exactly the same, but this time
gravity doesn't help you straighten the string. You have to get
the string parallel to the car before you can start measuring.
First, stretch the string between two jackstands, washer fluid
bottles, or whatever puts the string at the height of the wheel
rims. Then measure the distance between the string and each
wheel hub (front and rear). If the front and rear "track" are
the same, then the two distances should be the same (track is
the distance between the left and right tires on one axle, and
can be found in your service manual). If the front track is
wider, then the string should be closer to the front hub, by one
half the difference in front and rear track.
If this sounds confusing, just think it out for yourself. Just
remember that the goal is to get the string parallel to the
car. After the string is parallel to the car, follow the same
procedure as for camber (measure between string and rim, at both
front and rear of rim, divide by rim diameter, and take
tangent). Note that some manuals specify total toe (left plus
right).
Have fun, and please let me know if you have any questions, and
how well it works for you. I've only done it this way once, but
I think it worked well.
Tom Leone <t...@slee01.srl.ford.com>