alignment
Nolan Penney
altavoz wrote:
>
> > How soon should a new car to have a wheel alignment done?
> Nolan Penney:As soon as it starts exhibiting signs of needing one.
> altavoz: Typical, unhelpful, stupid statement from Nolan, he's a flaming
> A******* .
The word is asshole altavos. Since you normally call people things far worse, I
don't see why you'd play cute games with me. Besides, I'm right, your wrong.
Just like you were wrong about Honda not having any idea if any of their
engines are interference design, wrong about adjusting steering axis by
machining an axle, wrong about solid axles handling badly, wrong about
alternators only producing dc current. You're wrong here as well.
> Todays cars need allignment less often as the design is better .
That goes along with what I said.
> Even my 82 Civic has no need for work. Despite it's 15 years of
> service , it's ball joints are still in perfect shape and a damper
> replace every 10 years gets you some renewal of the "suspension"
> componenets .
Bingo! Don't get it aligned unless it shows signs of needing it.
> If your tires are wearing on one side more than the other , suspect
> a toe-in problem.
Bingo! Don't get it aligned unless it shows signs of needing it.
> You can forget camber problems on HONDA as the new
> double ball joint system is so bullet proof , you'd need a ball joint
> to have 1/2" of play before you'd notice any problems !
Bingo! Don't get it aligned unless it shows signs of needing it.
> If you drive very rough roads , suspect a Honda to need alligment
> every 10 years , else every 20 years .
A *regular* 20 year schedule? Or perhaps...only when it shows signs of needing
it, eh?
Once again Altovas, you've demonstrated just how right I was, and how wrong you
are. But at least this time you're trying to ride my coat tails. <g>
altavoz
Nolan:
Just like you were wrong about Honda not having any idea if any of their
engines are interference design, wrong about adjusting steering axis by
machining an axle, wrong about solid axles handling badly, wrong about
alternators only producing dc current. You're wrong here as well.
altavoz: You are a liar . It did not say Honda does not know which
engines are interference . I said Honda does not keep records of
belt failures that do not cause engine damage . You also lied about
machining an axle , i said bending the spindle . Go to school and
learn the difference between maching/bending .
Alt.engineering.electrical said you and Rick are wrong , alts do
not have AC .
I proved you wrong in every case .
Nolan Penney
> altavoz: You are a liar .
Of course I am Altavoz, of course I am. Only you are a speaker of truth.
> It did not say Honda does not know which engines are interference.
Refering to yourself as "it" now Altavoz? Now *that's* quite revealing.
However, you did insist repeatedly that I was wrong about Honda knowing which
engines were interference design. That was why you posted the dippy message
over in the Honda news group asking how many engines had received bent valves
as a result of timing belt failure. Remember now? You just couldn't believe
that Honda would have that information, or that I could find it. The words
"we'll see" ring a bell yet? They were the words you uttered to me before
you left the alt.autos.tech group in a huff on the subject of broken timing
belts and engine damage.
> I said Honda does not keep records of belt failures that do not cause engine damage .
All in pursuit of the holy grail of Honda engines with interference heads.
>You also lied about machining an axle , i said bending the spindle.
No. You actually send modify. Here's your words on the subject:
"Strut has too much steering axis inclination and even at
15 MPH , the stupid wheel fights you ! At 65MPH it wants
to come out of the turn REAL BAD . The force is very high.
I'll be modifying some old 82 spindles soon and that
will remove most of that inclination ."
Now personally, I thought you had the mental acumen to understand that the
front spindle is in fact part of the axle, and rotates, and that perhaps you
were doing something like changing the offset via machining. I had my
doubts, but I was willing to give you the credit. I see I gave you far too
much credit, since now you are going to *bend* the axle stub, and have the
wheel wobble like hell as it rotates. If it can infact rotate.
My appologies for assuming you have a slight clue about what you were
babbling about. I should never have thought you had even the slightest of
clues I now see. I do appologive for humiliating you, and offending you, by
thinking you had even the slightest clue about which you were speaking.
I know I would personally dearly love to see the wonderfull handling
characeristics of an 82 Honda with bent front axle spindles.
>Go to school and learn the difference between maching/bending.
Would this be the school of non-ac producing alternators, ac and dc
voltage can't co-exist, sillyscopes show dc current as sin waves,
design engineers don't know if their engines are freewheeling,
regularly schedule front end alighnments every 30,000 miles, and bending fwd
axles for better handling?
> Alt.engineering.electrical said you and Rick are wrong , alts do not have AC .
Of course not Altavoz. Alternators provide something other then ac. Not
quite sure what though, since the definition of an alternator is a source of
alternating current. So, please, tell us, or at least me, what an alternator
*does* provide if not alternating current.
What is it btw, that power plants use to provide alternating current if it's
not alternators? Is it perhaps that I'm merely confused, and that household
current isn't actually ac, but is instead something else? Is this all part
of that government conspiracy you see and have talked about before? Perhaps
you really should elighten us about this.
It's funny that no one else seems to have seen this invisible discussion you
claim to have had over there. Could it be because at the time you were
posting to a ficticious group called alt.electrical.engineering perhaps?
> I proved you wrong in every case .
Oh yes, that's been so clearly demonstrated here hasn't it? Have a good life
within your imagination Altovaz. You're still a wonderfull case study, and I
enjoy you thoroughly. Please continue!
Brent A. Peterson
altavoz wrote:
> Nolan:
>> wrong about alternators only producing dc current.
> altavoz: You are a liar .
> Alt.engineering.electrical said you and Rick are wrong
>, alts do not have AC .
Going to dejanews, looking up that thread and reading it
shows otherwise. There was not a single person that
agreed with the altavoz view point. A few people
pointed out the error of altavoz's probe arragement
to prove there was no AC. When people did not agree
with altavoz, altavoz became is normal abusive self.
The tread moved on as to a discussion of the best way
to get 110-120V AC from an alternator.
The fact it produced AC was a GIVEN.
Altavoz here agian is accusing others of being
what he himself is.
http://www.dejanews.com/ search for altavoz,
alt.engineering.electrical, or the thread by title
"AC taps on car altrnator" 53 post thread, the only
person that agreed with altavoz was altavoz.
Nolan Penney
> http://www.dejanews.com/ search for altavoz,
> alt.engineering.electrical, or the thread by title
> "AC taps on car altrnator" 53 post thread, the only
> person that agreed with altavoz was altavoz.
Wow, that was a blast! I had no idea he was so wacked out. I loved his
various comments about how science has proven the male brain superior to
the female, and his thread about how he knows who's sleeping with who in
the world of international finance. Fascinating!
I was mildly surprized to see that absolutely no one anywhere in any of
the many areas he was posting his alternator crap (what, 20 areas?) would
agree with him. Straight across the board, they all laughed at his
foolishness.
Thanks for the link to this site, it's great!
Ray McNairy
Nolan Penney wrote:
>
> Wow, that was a blast! I had no idea he was so wacked out. I loved his
> various comments about how science has proven the male brain superior to
> the female, and his thread about how he knows who's sleeping with who in
> the world of international finance. Fascinating!
>
> I was mildly surprized to see that absolutely no one anywhere in any of
> the many areas he was posting his alternator crap (what, 20 areas?) would
> agree with him. Straight across the board, they all laughed at his
> foolishness.
Just goes to show that people-altavoz-from the shallow end of the gene
pool serve SOME useful purpose, providing humor, amazement and
astonishment to the rest of us. Bet even his proctologist thinks he's a
perfect example. Think this is bad, check out his mental mastrubation
on rec.autos.driving. It makes a skinhead look like Gandi. For what
its worth I disagree about his alternator position also and I have 34
years of deg'd EE exp in aerospace/nuclear weapons instrumentation to
back it up.
Oh well. 624!
--
Ciao, Ray (Boomer) McNairy
76 Lancia Scorpion, O.F.'s toy, 280K mi and still strong.
95 Contour GL V-6/5 speed, O.F.'s commuter beater
95 Chrysler Concorde for, "she who must be obeyed."
"Old enough to remember when sex was safe and race cars dangerous."
altavoz
tavoz wrote:
> Nolan:
>> wrong about alternators only producing dc current.
> altavoz: You are a liar .
> Alt.engineering.electrical said you and Rick are wrong
>, alts do not have AC .
Going to dejanews, looking up that thread and reading it
shows otherwise. There was not a single person that
agreed with the altavoz view point. A few people
pointed out the error of altavoz's probe arragement
to prove there was no AC. When people did not agree
with altavoz, altavoz became is normal abusive self.
The tread moved on as to a discussion of the best way
to get 110-120V AC from an alternator.
The fact it produced AC was a GIVEN.
Altavoz here agian is accusing others of being
what he himself is.
http://www.dejanews.com/ search for altavoz,
alt.engineering.electrical, or the thread by title
"AC taps on car altrnator" 53 post thread, the only
person that agreed with altavoz was altavoz.
altavoz: We all saw the 3 posts that said that alts in a car
make DC pulsating . This makes you a double liar .
altavoz
Just goes to show that people-altavoz-from the shallow end of the gene
pool serve SOME useful purpose, providing humor, amazement and
astonishment to the rest of us. Bet even his proctologist thinks he's a
perfect example. Think this is bad, check out his mental mastrubation
on rec.autos.driving. It makes a skinhead look like Gandi. For what
its worth I disagree about his alternator position also and I have 34
years of deg'd EE exp in aerospace/nuclear weapons instrumentation to
altavoz:
You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
34 years ? That must mean you know more than some one with 33
years . ha h ah hahhhahahhhhahha....
Brent A. Peterson
altavoz wrote:
> altavoz: We all saw the 3 posts that said that alts in a car
> make DC pulsating . This makes you a double liar .
All of them, even those 3 were in agreement that alternators
produced AC.The 3 that said there was pulsating DC also said
that was due to being recified since your probe arragement looked
at it afterwards! No agreement, only telling you what you did
wrong. (How you call that agreeement with your 'no AC' statement
is beyond comprehension yet alone 3 out 53 being overwhelming
agreement) One of those three even posted the wave forms in ASCII
graphics. Face it, alternators produce AC.
-Bp
Nolan Penney
> altavoz: We all saw the 3 posts that said that alts in a car
> make DC pulsating . This makes you a double liar .
Nope. No one saw three posts saying alternators made dc pulsating. The closest you
can get to that is where some people commented that there is a pulsating dc after the
ac current from the alternator goes through the rectifier.
The only liar here is the guy that keeps on trying to insist alternators produce dc
current, and claims other people support him in this.
Rob
This is insanity, can't we get some of the people who make tachs that
run off the
alternators for marine, industrial and heavy duty vehicles to post and
resolve this?
I realize the current (no pun int.) issue is regarding truth, etc. BTW,
what then is
the difference between an ALTernator and a generator, if not AC vs DC?
Disclaimer: Don't know much 'bout electricity, hmm, hmmm, hmm, biology,
hmm, hmmm, algebra...
Rob
Nolan Penney
> This is insanity, can't we get some of the people who make tachs that
> run off the
> alternators for marine, industrial and heavy duty vehicles to post and
> resolve this?
Why do you need them? You've got a passle of engineers (myself included), and other
assorted technoweenies, that will tell you quite authoritatively that alternators
produce a/c current. That's a fact, and that's the long and short of it. Altavoz is
off and running, unable to understand what he's talking about is the d/c current
*after* it's been through the rectifier, which is not part of the alternator.
> I realize the current (no pun int.) issue is regarding truth, etc. BTW,
> what then is
> the difference between an ALTernator and a generator, if not AC vs DC?
That's about it. Altavaz just can't grasp it. Though 99.9% of the rest of the human
race can.
Although, if you really want to get into it, a generator doesn't actually produce dc,
but produces a/c. It is mechanically rectified by the seperated armature windings.
The plot of the winding voltages is a nice pretty sine wave, just like ac, but broken
off before it goes to the opposite value by the break in connection.
Nolan Penney
> altavoz:
> You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> that AC must go positive and negative.
Very good Altavoz!
> Alts in cars don't do that,
Yes they do.
> so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
That's only *after* the rectifier Altavoz.
> 34 years ? That must mean you know more than some one with 33
> years . ha h ah hahhhahahhhhahha....
And definately more then you...
Ray McNairy
>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>years . ha h ah hahhhahahhhhahha....
Nolan, you sure got this turkey pegged! Just shows that the minus ten
sigma area of the Bell curve of humanity IS populated.
Lookie Here, Maw! A fella din no how to spell engyneeer a moon ago and
he done looked at one o dem alt. news groups for a spell and NOW, HE ARE
ONE!! Don' it beat ALL. Bet dat mailaway school bout fix’n TV’s he
got in that Cracker Jack box helped him a bunch.
Guess altavoz gives new life to the old story about the guy whose eyes
were blue on top and brown on the bottom being a pint low. I should
feel insulted that he claims to be an engineer but the net hids many
figments of imagination and ego's. Can only assume that the royal "we"
he uses, refers to the excrement in his pocket. Guess the maniacal
laughter was to make some point but it escapes my uninformed low level
of comprehension. Or, could it have just slipped out?
--
Ciao, Ray (Boomer) McNairy
"624"
Harold Davey
altavoz wrote:
>
> Just goes to show that people-altavoz-from the shallow end of the gene
> pool serve SOME useful purpose, providing humor, amazement and
> astonishment to the rest of us. Bet even his proctologist thinks he's
> a
> perfect example. Think this is bad, check out his mental mastrubation
> on rec.autos.driving. It makes a skinhead look like Gandi. For
> what
> its worth I disagree about his alternator position also and I have 34
> years of deg'd EE exp in aerospace/nuclear weapons instrumentation to
> back it up. Ciao, Ray (Boomer) McNairy
>
> You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
> do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
> 34 years ? That must mean you know more than some one with 33
I hate to bust your bubble but it is called an alternator because it
generates AC current. All automotive alternators have rectifying diodes
in the case to turn the AC into DC current.
HDavey
--
Delete the "ro...@127.0.0.1" in my email address to respond.
"You don't know what it is that you don't know."
(Ignorance is not bliss, nor is it stupidity.)
Cactus Jack
Ray McNairy <NS_mu...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
>>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
>>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
rectified by the diodes?????
Just curious.
C.J.
"You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns,
you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold."
altavoz
BTW,
what then is
the difference between an ALTernator and a generator, if not AC vs DC?
Disclaimer: Don't know much 'bout electricity, hmm, hmmm, hmm, biology,
hmm, hmmm, algebra...
Rob
altavoz: They both make AC til you put diodes in alt and gnd it and
DC gen makes AC til you give it brushes to "rectify" it to pulsating
DC .
But the most important diff' is that the alt is not as limited in
the number of poles on the field . It's difficult to make a DC gen
with 12 poles . It's low cost and easy to make alts with 12 or more
poles . The greater the poles , the lower is the RPM that you will
get useful output . Alts put out >50% at idle ( 1500 RPM).
altavoz
Ray McNairy <NS_mu...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
>>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
>>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
rectified by the diodes?????
Just curious.
C.J.
altavoz: In a car, an alt puts out pulsating DC which we call DC
on both sides of the diodes . One side has very low ripple and the
stator side puts out very high ripple or "ac" component .
In order to keep confusion to a min' ,we must use one ground reference
only . In a car , that is chassis gnd .
There are no AC taps on a acar alt . There are AC taps on the alt
that makes the 115vac at ur house .
Alts come in 2 styles , "Y" wound and "DELTA" wound . The Y has a tap
that can be used for many things such as driving your AC evap fan at
midium speed or driving the radiator fans ( 8vdc).
As you may have noticed , i specialize in controvercy . Anything that
science says is white and PENNEY and others think is black, i go after
it.
And i'm almost allways right .
BTW allways check alt at idle and turn on a few small accessories and
watch the voltage drop . Headlights should make the volt drop to no less
than 13.5 vdc.
Michael Palmer
Cactus Jack wrote:
> <*snip*>
> >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
> >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>
> Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
> DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
> rectified by the diodes?????
>
> Just curious.
>
Altavoz has been quite clear on his position in this matter: his
assertion is that there is no AC to be found anywhere inside a working
alternator.
I await with eager anticipation his forthcoming detailed explanation of
the operation of the alternators he's experienced do not generate AC
prior to their rectification stage.
--
-MP
---------------
1994 Probe GT
---------------
Nolan Penney
> altavoz: They both make AC til you put diodes in alt and gnd it and
> DC gen makes AC til you give it brushes to "rectify" it to pulsating
> DC .
I see you've been reading my words, but not understanding them. The
brushes have nothing to do with "rectifying" the current. You really
missed on that one. Many alternators have brushes. Clearly, brushes do
nothing to rectify current. It's the way the armature communator is
built that dictates the rectification effect. Fully ringed, you get ac,
split the rings, and you get pulsating dc.
You tried, but you still got it all wrong.
> But the most important diff' is that the alt is not as limited in
> the number of poles on the field . It's difficult to make a DC gen
> with 12 poles.
You can easily make a dc generator with 12 poles actually. They're just
large, heavy, and not well suited for living under an automobiles hood.
Nolan Penney
> altavoz: In a car, an alt puts out pulsating DC which we call DC
> on both sides of the diodes .
Nope. That's the current or voltage provided after the *rectifier*, not after the
alternator. You are very confused by the modern trend of mounting the rectifier,
and often the regulator, on the backside of the alternator, and the whole assembly
being commonly called an alternator. In *every* case of a seperately mounted
alternator, seperate from the rectifier, the "alternator" is providing alternating
current. Older units, and some Ford units, often have distinctly marked ac taps on
the backs of the units.
> There are no AC taps on a acar alt.
That is wrong. Many automotive alternators, even those with integral rectifiers and
regulators, have ac taps.
> As you may have noticed , i specialize in controvercy.
No, you're just a fool that is easily confused, and has name calling temper tantrums
when you encounters facts and truths, as they usually oppose your self ritious
opinions.
> And i'm almost allways right .
You have consistently been wrong actually. Let me know how it goes bending the
front axles of your fwd Honda for better performance! This should be *really* good.
Ray McNairy
altavoz wrote:
> altavoz: In a car, an alt puts out pulsating DC which we call DC
> on both sides of the diodes . One side has very low ripple and the
> stator side puts out very high ripple or "ac" component .
> In order to keep confusion to a min' ,we must use one ground reference
> only . In a car , that is chassis gnd .
> There are no AC taps on a acar alt . There are AC taps on the alt
> that makes the 115vac at ur house .
> Alts come in 2 styles , "Y" wound and "DELTA" wound . The Y has a tap
> that can be used for many things such as driving your AC evap fan at
> midium speed or driving the radiator fans ( 8vdc).
> As you may have noticed , i specialize in controvercy . Anything that
> science says is white and PENNEY and others think is black, i go after
> it.
> BTW allways check alt at idle and turn on a few small accessories and
> watch the voltage drop . Headlights should make the volt drop to no less
> than 13.5 vdc.
Methinks your pontification of 'Science" supporting your unbelievably
ignorant positions
is almost too funny to even respond. But I just can't help myself as I
need the laughs.
Suppose your "science" might just be a tad "brown?"
altovoz:> And i'm almost allways right .
I haven't found one issue yet or found any of the many posts on this
subject that supports your conjectures. Guess you expect a Nobel for
discovering the "altavoz" fantasy which "prove" the good Dr. Maxwell was
wrong. Or, do the "others" have that locked up also and are robbing you
of your true place in the sun? Out of intense curiosity, can you name
any automotive alternator that uses a delta wound stator?
altavoz
Reply-To:
NS_mugwump2@pacbell/net
Organization:
none
Newsgroups:
alt.engineering.electrical
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6
>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>34 years ? That must mean you know more than some one with 33
>years . ha h ah hahhhahahhhhahha....
Nolan, you sure got this turkey pegged! Just shows that the minus ten
sigma area of the Bell curve of humanity IS populated.
Lookie Here, Maw! A fella din no how to spell engyneeer a moon ago and
he done looked at one o dem alt. news groups for a spell and NOW, HE ARE
ONE!! Don' it beat ALL. Bet dat mailaway school bout fix’n TV’s he
got in that Cracker Jack box helped him a bunch.
Guess altavoz gives new life to the old story about the guy whose eyes
were blue on top and brown on the bottom being a pint low. I should
feel insulted that he claims to be an engineer but the net hids many
figments of imagination and ego's. Can only assume that the royal "we"
he uses, refers to the excrement in his pocket. Guess the maniacal
laughter was to make some point but it escapes my uninformed low level
of comprehension. Or, could it have just slipped out?
Ray McNairy
altavoz: The above is typical of the mentallity of these
grease monkeys from Autos.tech NG . They want to write
their own elect' rules .
Alts in cars do not make AC . One must use a single gnd
ref' and that means no waveform will go neg' which means
there is no AC in that alt .
altavoz
Cactus Jack wrote:
> <*snip*>
> >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
> >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>
> DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
> rectified by the diodes?????
>
> Just curious.
>
Altavoz has been quite clear on his position in this matter: his
assertion is that there is no AC to be found anywhere inside a working
alternator.
I await with eager anticipation his forthcoming detailed explanation of
the operation of the alternators he's experienced do not generate AC
prior to their rectification stage.
--
-MP
altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
this . Out of a car , anything goes.
altavoz
altavoz wrote:
Ray (Boomer) McNairy
altavoz: This is the 2nd time around. Abt a month ago ,ppl
from this NG said you were wrong . Stay tuned , they'll do
it again . In a car , alts do not have AC taps . The Y tap
is DC at 1/2 the ripple freq of the stator.
I bought 5 cheap rebuilt FORD 60 amp alts that are delta wound.
I don't know why you doubt the delta wind , cause we engineers
know that delta is more econ' than Y wound , uses smaller wire
for same amps . Of course one can go too far in the small gage
direction and get wires so small that they don't hold their shape
under vibration .
I find it encredible how stupid you grease monkeys are , doubting
an elect' expert like me.
AN ALTERNATOR IN A CAR DOES NOT MAKE AC , ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RECT'
The only way you could get AC would be to cheat by cap coupling off
your power .
keith gustafson
In article <33AFF7...@mail.idt.net>, alta...@mail.idt.net says...
>> >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
>> >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
>> >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>>
.
>
>altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
>this . Out of a car , anything goes.
Again 100 per cent ripple. I think not. I am very interested to see if you can
quote backup on this. A textbook? Ground? Ground is not relevent. The ground
level in big industrial buildings can vary widely. The only true ground is the
one I am standing on. Apparently a different one than you are standing on:-).
BTW a.c. stands for alternating current, not positive negative current. It
changes direction, If you tie it to ground, then yes it goes positive and
negative.So please, name ONE source for your info[outside of your head], I
really hate being so terribly, terribly wrong.
altavoz
Nolan , no-nothing said:
You can easily make a dc generator with 12 poles actually. They're just
large, heavy, and not well suited for living under an automobiles hood.
altavoz: IDIOT ! The reason you can not do that is , have you ever
noticed
the relationship between the number of rotor and stator poles!
A DC gen needs to have arm poles that match up to stator ( fld) poles .
Here's the killer....
How many commutator bars would you need , idiot, for a 12 pole,3 ph gen
?
NOT ECONOMICALLY DOABLE .
I've never known anyone to be wrong so many times and not be red faced
!
Ray McNairy
altavoz wrote:
altavoz: cause we engineers
>know that delta is more econ' than Y wound ,
Still pretending you are one??? Oh well that's your right along with
keeping the excrement in your pocket.. Funny, all the Ford alt's I have
had were Y wound. But, being an "engineer" you would surely know what
to look for.
Mike Marich
I have witnessed these posts from Altavoz in the past weeks,
and I have noted one thing: ALAVOZ CAN'T SPELL OR TYPE ANYTHING
LEGIBLY. There, I finally said it. Thank you very much.
Mike
Michael Palmer wrote:
>
> Cactus Jack wrote:
> > <*snip*>
> > >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> > >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
> > >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
> >
> > Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
> > DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
> > rectified by the diodes?????
> >
> > Just curious.
> >
>
> Altavoz has been quite clear on his position in this matter: his
> assertion is that there is no AC to be found anywhere inside a working
> alternator.
>
> I await with eager anticipation his forthcoming detailed explanation of
> the operation of the alternators he's experienced do not generate AC
> prior to their rectification stage.
>
> --
> -MP
>
Matt Ho
> altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
> this . Out of a car , anything goes.
AC means Alternating Current. It does not say anything about positive or
negative. All you need for AC is fluctuation. You can have an AC voltage
with a DC offset and all of it be above zero volt or ground or whatever
you use for voltage reference. In the car, out of the car, on Earth or in
space. AC is AC and DC is DC.
-------------------------------------------------------
Matt Ho
mh...@lbl.gov
altavoz
Nolan:
Why do you need them? You've got a passle of engineers (myself
included), and other
assorted technoweenies, that will tell you quite authoritatively that
alternators
produce a/c current. That's a fact, and that's the long and short of
it. Altavoz is
off and running, unable to understand what he's talking about is the d/c
current
*after* it's been through the rectifier, which is not part of the
alternator.
> I realize the current (no pun int.) issue is regarding truth, etc. BTW,
> what then is
> the difference between an ALTernator and a generator, if not AC vs DC?
That's about it. Altavaz just can't grasp it. Though 99.9% of the rest
of the human
race can.
Although, if you really want to get into it, a generator doesn't
actually produce dc,
but produces a/c. It is mechanically rectified by the seperated
armature windings.
The plot of the winding voltages is a nice pretty sine wave, just like
ac, but broken
off before it goes to the opposite value by the break in connection.
altavoz: You are bucking the definition of AC which is in all coll'
text books . YOU ARE A FOOL .
Steve Alexanderson
As long as we are keeping confusion to a minimum, by specifying a common
ground reference, there is no 240 vac single phase in my house. It makes no
difference that my water heater and baseboard heaters have no neutral or
ground connections (old house). Only 120 volts anywhere in my house, even
though the equipment nameplates say otherwise. I'm certainly much less
confused.
--
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net> wrote in article
<33AEA5...@mail.idt.net>...
> Ray McNairy <NS_mu...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
> >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>
> Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
> DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
> rectified by the diodes?????
>
> Just curious.
>
> C.J.
>
>
> altavoz: In a car, an alt puts out pulsating DC which we call DC
> on both sides of the diodes . One side has very low ripple and the
> stator side puts out very high ripple or "ac" component .
> In order to keep confusion to a min' ,we must use one ground reference
> only . In a car , that is chassis gnd .
> There are no AC taps on a acar alt . There are AC taps on the alt
> that makes the 115vac at ur house .
> Alts come in 2 styles , "Y" wound and "DELTA" wound . The Y has a tap
> that can be used for many things such as driving your AC evap fan at
> midium speed or driving the radiator fans ( 8vdc).
> As you may have noticed , i specialize in controvercy . Anything that
> science says is white and PENNEY and others think is black, i go after
> it.
> And i'm almost allways right .
Steve Alexanderson
Albatross is right when he says that the alternator puts out pulsating DC
voltage when referenced to chassis ground. This particular measurement is
taken across the rectifier, from the AC side to the DC side. The problem
with this measurement is that it is practically meaningless, since no loads
are connected in this manner. If he would look at the currents rather than
the voltages he would clearly see AC ahead of the regulator. When current
is considered, there is no "confusion" over the reference point.
I'm waiting for Al to connect a 240 V motor. The reference point is the
neutral, of course, which is not attached to the windings. We must not be
confused by the winding voltage.
--
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
Nolan Penney <npe...@erols.com> wrote in article
<33AF2E...@erols.com>...
> > altavoz: In a car, an alt puts out pulsating DC which we call DC
> > on both sides of the diodes .
>
> Nope. That's the current or voltage provided after the *rectifier*, not
after the
> alternator. You are very confused by the modern trend of mounting the
rectifier,
> and often the regulator, on the backside of the alternator, and the whole
assembly
> being commonly called an alternator. In *every* case of a seperately
mounted
> alternator, seperate from the rectifier, the "alternator" is providing
alternating
> current. Older units, and some Ford units, often have distinctly marked
ac taps on
> the backs of the units.
>
> > There are no AC taps on a acar alt.
>
> That is wrong. Many automotive alternators, even those with integral
rectifiers and
> regulators, have ac taps.
>
> > As you may have noticed , i specialize in controvercy.
>
> No, you're just a fool that is easily confused, and has name calling
temper tantrums
> when you encounters facts and truths, as they usually oppose your self
ritious
> opinions.
>
> > And i'm almost allways right .
>
Steve Alexanderson
Please be careful when referring to yourself as an engineer. Most places
have laws against the misuse of this term.
--
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net> wrote in article
<33AFF6...@mail.idt.net>...
> altavoz wrote:
>
> > altavoz: In a car, an alt puts out pulsating DC which we call DC
> > on both sides of the diodes . One side has very low ripple and the
> > stator side puts out very high ripple or "ac" component .
> > In order to keep confusion to a min' ,we must use one ground reference
> > only . In a car , that is chassis gnd .
> > There are no AC taps on a acar alt . There are AC taps on the alt
> > that makes the 115vac at ur house .
> > Alts come in 2 styles , "Y" wound and "DELTA" wound . The Y has a tap
> > that can be used for many things such as driving your AC evap fan at
> > midium speed or driving the radiator fans ( 8vdc).
> > As you may have noticed , i specialize in controvercy . Anything that
> > science says is white and PENNEY and others think is black, i go after
> > it.
>
> > BTW allways check alt at idle and turn on a few small accessories and
> > watch the voltage drop . Headlights should make the volt drop to no
less
> > than 13.5 vdc.
>
Ken Payne
altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>Ray McNairy <NS_mu...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>>>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
>>>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
>>>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>
>Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
>DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
>rectified by the diodes?????
>
>Just curious.
>
>C.J.
>
>
>altavoz: In a car, an alt puts out pulsating DC which we call DC
>on both sides of the diodes . One side has very low ripple and the
>stator side puts out very high ripple or "ac" component .
> In order to keep confusion to a min' ,we must use one ground reference
>only . In a car , that is chassis gnd .
> There are no AC taps on a acar alt . There are AC taps on the alt
>that makes the 115vac at ur house .
Wrong! Older Ford cars and trucks had ac taps. They are explicitly
marked as such.
> Alts come in 2 styles , "Y" wound and "DELTA" wound . The Y has a tap
>that can be used for many things such as driving your AC evap fan at
>midium speed or driving the radiator fans ( 8vdc).
> As you may have noticed , i specialize in controvercy . Anything that
>science says is white and PENNEY and others think is black, i go after
>it.
No, you specialize in being an *sshole.
>And i'm almost allways right .
A legend in your own mind.
> BTW allways check alt at idle and turn on a few small accessories and
>watch the voltage drop . Headlights should make the volt drop to no less
>than 13.5 vdc.
-Ken
1967 Ford F100, 390FE V8 - Fordnatic
To send me email: kpayne*spam-remove*@mindspring.com
Check out the free Ford Truck (and Van) Enthusiasts Web Site/Email List.
Questions, answers, ads, discussion... all free. 800 members and growing.
http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/fordtrucks
F-Series, E-Series, Rangers, Broncos, Bronco IIs, Explorers, Expeditions,
Rancheros and pre-F Series trucks covered.
Clarence Snyder
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:30:38 -0700, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
Commutator bars on an ALTERNATOR????
Now we know the fool dreams in technicolor. An alternator uses slip
rings, and even they are not necessary. A perfectly good alternator
could be built with no brushes at all, and 12 poles. No permanent
magnets or other voodoo is required. Simply attatch the field coil to
the stator frame and spin the rotor. Don't tell me it can't be done
'till you look at a Yamaha V Twin M/C alternator, or any number of
commercially available AC gen-sets of brushless design - Mc Colough
and Coleman being two that come to mind.
Asf for red-faced, there ought to be a REAL glow over the north
eastern states . Altavos a la glow
Ontario Interprovincial Class "A" Mechanic
Recycled as Computer Solution Provider
Business Vision Platinum ATSO
Business Management systems you will not outgrow
To reply, drop the r - reply to cls...@ibm.net.
Too many misdirected replies filling my box
Dale Redford
Yo Guys,
Thanks for pounding 'voz into mush cause he's needed it for a long time
now. He has been pretending in alt.ee and making nonsense for some time
now. It is good that y'all have an understanding of basic electricity and
called him on this. So from one of us train drivers,
Thanks,
Dale E. Redford
Ray McNairy <NS_mu...@pacbell.net> wrote in article
<33B03B...@pacbell.net>...
> altavoz wrote:
> altavoz: cause we engineers
> >know that delta is more econ' than Y wound ,
>
Pin 2 Hot
altavoz wrote:
> altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
> this . Out of a car , anything goes.
Depends where you connect the Common connection of your measuring
device, ie, the black probe of your vom, or the ground lead of your
'scope. Doesn't have to be the car chassis. Of course you'll need to
dig inside the alternator to get to the AC.
--
Gene
When replying by e-mail, please remove the asterisks from my e-mail
address, they are there in an attempt to thwart the automailers.
Pin 2 Hot
altavoz wrote:
> I bought 5 cheap rebuilt FORD 60 amp alts that are delta wound.
> I don't know why you doubt the delta wind , cause we engineers
> know that delta is more econ' than Y wound , uses smaller wire
> for same amps .
Smaller wire, yeah, but you need more turns of it to get the same
output voltage leg to leg. (1.73 times as many) So you use the same
amount of copper delta or wye. And since more turns takes longer on
the winding machine, wye ends up being more economical than delta. Not
to mention thicker wire is easier to work with, cheaper by the pound,
and you only have to bring one wire per leg out of the stator to the
diodes. (makes for faster assembly)
Of course, you do have that extra junction at the center of the wye,
but automotive manufacturers/designers have found some clever uses
for it.
> I find it encredible how stupid you grease monkeys are , doubting
> an elect' expert like me.
I'll let that one go, as it might have been stated "tongue-in-cheek".
> AN ALTERNATOR IN A CAR DOES NOT MAKE AC , ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RECT'
> The only way you could get AC would be to cheat by cap coupling off
> your power .
If you HAVE to use the car as a common ground then yes, this would
work. But an "elect' expert" should be able to find a better way,
should the need for automotive A.C. power present itself.
Craig Keener
Matt Ho wrote:
>
> In article <33AFF7...@mail.idt.net>, alta...@mail.idt.net wrote:
>
> > altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
> > this . Out of a car , anything goes.
>
I'm not sure about that. According to any definition I've ever
seen or used there would have to be an actual polarity change (current
reversing direction) for it to be considered AC. The main problem
in sparring with Altavoz has been that he changes the wording of his
arguments so much that they look like sine waves themselves, and this of
course makes debate pointless. Also, since the exact same topics were
argued at length here in rec.autos.tech just a month ago I really don't
see why a few individuals have choosen to rehash those identical points
now. As far as I'm concerned the time has passed on this particular
issue.
Michael Palmer
Steve Alexanderson wrote:
>
> Albatross is right when he says that the alternator puts out pulsating DC
> voltage when referenced to chassis ground. This particular measurement is
> taken across the rectifier, from the AC side to the DC side. The problem
> with this measurement is that it is practically meaningless, since no loads
> are connected in this manner. If he would look at the currents rather than
> the voltages he would clearly see AC ahead of the regulator. When current
> is considered, there is no "confusion" over the reference point.
>
> I'm waiting for Al to connect a 240 V motor. The reference point is the
> neutral, of course, which is not attached to the windings. We must not be
> confused by the winding voltage.
> --
Not to pick nits or anything, but only alternators that incorporate a
built-in rectifier "put out" pulsating DC. Those alternators that do not
have rectifier bridges (for example, the ones at your local
electric utilities generating station) "put out" AC. Regardless, ALL
alternators produce AC internally in the process of generating
electricity, whether or not the manufacturer saw fit to bring AC taps
out or not.
Also, should not the statement "...voltages he would clearly see AC
ahead of the regulator..." have read "...voltages he would clearly see
AC ahead of the RECTIFIER..." [emphasis mine]? The regulator acts to
control the field current (DC), which is supplied from the battery (DC).
And still I wait for Altavoz to grace us with a brief treatise on how
alternators he's experienced generate electricity without producing AC
in the process - in repsonse to "Michael's reading from a book/knows
nothing of alts"...
Nolan Penney
> altavoz: The above is typical of the mentallity of these
> grease monkeys from Autos.tech NG . They want to write
> their own elect' rules .
Actually, they stick to the rules of electricity. You on the other hand,
just *love* to make it up as you go along.
Watch, you're about to do it.
> Alts in cars do not make AC . One must use a single gnd
> ref' and that means no waveform will go neg' which means
> there is no AC in that alt .
See? There you go, making up new electrical rules. Only you Altavoz
think alternators produce dc current. No one else thinks that, because
everyone else *knows* alternators produce...ac current.
What part of this basic electrical concept is so difficult for you to
grasp? If you'll let us know what your mental problems are with this
fundamental and rudementary concept, I'm sure a number of people here
would be able to help you with your inadequacies.
Nolan Penney
Altavoz:
> I don't know why you doubt the delta wind , cause we engineers
You're not an engineer Altavoz. Remember, you were braging about not being able to
finish school just the other day. To be an engineer, one has to finish school.
Oh, wait a sec, you didn't say what *type* of engineer you are.
That does leave open things like, say...sanitation engineer?
Nolan Penney
> altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
> this . Out of a car , anything goes.
Better and better!
So that alternator magically changes how it operates when installed in a
car. Out of a car, anything goes.
How far out of the car does the alternator have to be for this magical
change to take place? Must it be completely removed, with a minimum
distance of say 10 feet? Can it still be connected with jumper wires,
but magically change at 10 feet? What about 4 feet? Maybe just away
from a vertical line taken from the hood?
This is *great* stuff Altavoz! Man are you a source of entertainment!
Hey, does it change current direction if you hold the alternator backwards?
What about shaking it? Does that cause voltage spiking as it bounces against
the top of the housing?
Man, you're better then the guys at the Comedy Club!
Nolan Penney
> How many commutator bars would you need , idiot, for a 12 pole,3 ph gen
Only an idiot would dream up 3 phase *generators* Altavoz.
> I've never known anyone to be wrong so many times and not be red faced
Yes, I'd saw we've all noted that about you.
How goes it bending the front axles on your fwd Honda for better handling? <G>
Adam Quantrill
Michael Palmer wrote:
> Cactus Jack wrote:
> > <*snip*>
> > >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> > >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
> > >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
> > Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
> > DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
> > rectified by the diodes?????
> Altavoz has been quite clear on his position in this matter: his
> assertion is that there is no AC to be found anywhere inside a working
> alternator.
> I await with eager anticipation his forthcoming detailed explanation of
> the operation of the alternators he's experienced do not generate AC
> prior to their rectification stage.
He's almost right. By defining the reference point to be chassis ground,
he almost correctly states that the alternator produces pulsating D.C.
at
all points in its internal circuitry. Almost, but not totally correct.
What happens is that the the diodes in the alternator (assuming they are
all working) clamp the ends of each winding to the battery terminals.
With
"ideal" diodes, each node of the alternator winding can never rise above
the
battery positive, or below the negative. This is because there are two
diodes
for each node, each pointing at the corresponding battery terminal. It's
a bit like a full-wave rectifier on a transformer secondary.
Remember, Altavoz states: AC must go positive and negative. This is
quite
correct, and is his undoing. For "ideal" diodes, the current is passed
through with no voltage drop. However, for the real silicon diodes in a
typical alternator, there is a forward bias voltage of at least 0.6V.
This has the following effect: instead of being clamped to battery
positive
and negative, the nodes of the alternator exceed these voltages by 0.6V
in each direction. If you 'scope traced a winding node in the
alternator,
with a battery voltage at say 14V, you would find that it fluctuated
between -0.6V and +14.6V.
I.e. IT CROSSES 0V!
Without looking carefully you could easily miss this -0.6V dip on a
typical
scope, after all it's only 4% of the trace height.
By Altavoz's definition, it must therefore be A.C. So, Mr Altavoz, you
were close, but not quite right. Thank you for engaging us in a
stimulating
debate.
- Adam
Brent A. Peterson
altavoz wrote:
> altavoz:
Where and when did you get your degree? When, where and what company
with what job title did you work at as a real engineer?
Not some glorified janitor title.
> I find it encredible how stupid you grease monkeys are , doubting
> an elect' expert like me.
No expert would say voltage and energy are not related like you did.
Despite your delusions, you are not a god and can be questioned.
> AN ALTERNATOR IN A CAR DOES NOT MAKE AC , ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RECT'
> The only way you could get AC would be to cheat by cap coupling off
> your power .
yap, yap, yap....
From Mark's stanard handbook for mechanical engineers 9th ed,
copyright 1987, page 15-80:
"A further development is the application of an ac generator,
or alternator, combined with a rectifier as the generating
unit rather than the usual dc generator. One advantage is
the elimination of the commutator, made up of segments, which
require some maintenance due to the sparking and wear of the
carbon brushes. ... This ac development is the result of the
development of reliable, low-cost germanium and silicon
semiconductor rectifiers."
That should close the case, but altavoz will simply say
the handbook is wrong.
-Bp
altavoz
(keith gustafson)
In article <33AFF7...@mail.idt.net>, alta...@mail.idt.net says...
>> >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
>> >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
>> >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>>
.
>
>altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
>this . Out of a car , anything goes.
Keith:
Again 100 per cent ripple. I think not. I am very interested to see if
you can
quote backup on this. A textbook? Ground? Ground is not relevent. The
ground
level in big industrial buildings can vary widely. The only true ground
is the
one I am standing on. Apparently a different one than you are standing
on:-).
BTW a.c. stands for alternating current, not positive negative current.
It
changes direction, If you tie it to ground, then yes it goes positive
and
negative.So please, name ONE source for your info[outside of your head],
I
really hate being so terribly, terribly wrong.
altavoz: It's over your "power distribution" head , it's called
electronics.
Ground is relevent . Naming one source would be all college level
text books on electronics .
Charles B. Schroebel
Hello,
You can have ac in the presence of a dc offset. What are you calling
ground? The ground in a standard American market automobile is attached
directly to the (-) terminal of the storage battery. That would make the
high side of the alt output ac + 12vdc the result could (and will) > 12v
part of the time. Rectification doesn't help. AC coupling before
rectification does help. Shouldn't be a problem in either case. More
of a problem are hot cases in voltage covertors where 120v is applied to
the chassis. That's a problem of poor design/poor components.
Charles B. Schroebel
(csch...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu)
301 North High Street
Baltimore, Maryland 21202
Voice Mail: (410) 685-5057 ext 220#
Fax: (410) 576-9628
noch ein geht immer noch
discard...@worldnet.att.net
Just to keep anyone from trying to use their alternator 10 feet outside
of their car, I thought the following quotes from the 3rd Edition of the
Bosch Automotive Handbook (pubhlished in 1993) would be interesting:
page 768 "The alternator actually produces alternating current. The
vehicle's electrical system, on the other hand, requires direct current
to recharge the battery and operate the electrical equipment;..."
page 769 "As direct current is required for charging the battery, a
rectifier must be provided to convert the alternator's three-phase
alternating current into DC."
page 770 "The already very familiar mechanical concept embodied in this
alternator type has completely replaced the earlier DC generator as the
standard design in automotive applications."
By its very definition an ALTERNATOR produces ALTERNATING current, AC. A
generator produces DC voltage. The reason cars have switched to
alternators is because they are much more efficient and inexpensive
compared to generators.
By the way, I referenced the Bosch Automotive Handbook since they have
produced an alternator or two (or 200 million) and should know a bit
about them.
Nolan Penney wrote:
>
> > altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
> > this . Out of a car , anything goes.
>
John M. Feiereisen
In <33AFF7...@mail.idt.net>, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
>altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
>this . Out of a car , anything goes.
ALTERNATOR
^^^^^^^^
Note the root word - alternate.
Altavoz, maybe you could explain the difference between an
alternator and a DC generator for us. Thanks.
--
John M. Feiereisen feierejm(at)utrc.utc.com
Steve Alexanderson
According to IEEE 100, alternating current refers to current that averages
zero over a full period. AC voltage is not in the dictionary.
--
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
Matt Ho <mh...@lbl.gov> wrote in article
<mhho-24069...@204.130.213.8>...
> In article <33AFF7...@mail.idt.net>, alta...@mail.idt.net wrote:
>
> > altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
> > this . Out of a car , anything goes.
>
> AC means Alternating Current. It does not say anything about positive or
Steve Alexanderson
Yes, but you are talking about voltage waveforms. Use a current probe to
check for alternating current (AC) ahead of the rectifier and you will see
a nearly sinusoidal waveform with negligible DC offset. This is because
full wave rectification is used. No problem with reference points when
current is measured. We don't need to look so carefully to disprove Al.
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
Adam Quantrill <aquan...@scigen.co.uk> wrote in article
<33B12E...@scigen.co.uk>...
> Michael Palmer wrote:
>
> > Cactus Jack wrote:
> > > <*snip*>
> > > >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> > > >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
> > > >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>
Steve Alexanderson
So make sure you remove your portable generator from your pickup before
firing it up. That pulsating DC will mess up your tools.
--
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
> altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
Nolan Penney
> altavoz: It's over your "power distribution" head , it's called
> electronics.
> Ground is relevent . Naming one source would be all college level
> text books on electronics .
Yes indeed, grounding is relavent. Relavent as to the *bias* one sees. For if one is
standing on a ground (term used loosely) that is at say, 200v+, in relation to an
ALTERNATOR that is producing an ac oscelation of say 110 vrms, then the resulting ac
signal one would see is 145 - 255 volts.
Every college, or even high school level text book on electronics explains this.
Course, you probably would consider those books suspect, since they say alternators
produce ac current, not the dc current you insist comes out of an alternators windings.
Nolan Penney
> Albatross is right when he says that the alternator puts out pulsating DC
> voltage when referenced to chassis ground.
Not really, for as you've noted, it involves the use of the rectifier to get this
reading. He has been quite emphatic that the rectifier has nothing to do with this
phenomina, that it is inherent in the very design of an alternator that it must
produce pulsating dc current. That it is dc current and or voltage (he's never
clear which he means) going through the windings of the alternator itself.
Though he then has no explanation for the use of a rectifier, such as used on
automotive type vehicle dc systems.
Nolan Penney
> altavoz: You are bucking the definition of AC which is in all coll'
> text books . YOU ARE A FOOL .
There is NO coll(ege) text book that will say alternators produce dc
current like you insist they do.
I may be a fool, but at least I know what I'm talking about <g>
Ray McNairy
Nolan Penney wrote:
>
> > How many commutator bars would you need , idiot, for a 12 pole,3 ph gen
>
> Only an idiot would dream up 3 phase *generators* Altavoz.
>
> > I've never known anyone to be wrong so many times and not be red faced
>
> Yes, I'd saw we've all noted that about you.
Has anyone confirmed that this turkey is real? I'm beginning to think
"alternating altavoz" is
some eight year old having fun with his folks computer. Seems about his
comprehension level. Can't believe ANY adult is this dumb.
--
Ciao, Ray (Boomer) McNairy
76 Lancia Scorpion, O.F.'s toy, 280K mi and still strong.
95 Contour GL V-6/5 speed, O.F.'s commuter beater
95 Chrysler Concorde for, "she who must be obeyed."
"Old enough to remember when sex was safe and race cars dangerous."
Hairy One Kenobi
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:32:40 -0700, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
>altavoz wrote:
>AN ALTERNATOR IN A CAR DOES NOT MAKE AC , ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RECT'
> The only way you could get AC would be to cheat by cap coupling off
>your power .
I'm not sure what a cap coupler is (a press stud to hold the visor
up?), but if there is not AC on either side of the rectifier, then why
fit it? Since a rectifier is, by definition, a device for rectifying
(it's that word again!) ac, then why do all manufacturers fit one? Is
it a spare, in case the laws of physics change?
Note: the opinions expressed in this opinion do not necessarily
represent the opinions of the opinionated person expressing the
opinion. Or something.
Hairy One Kenobi
On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:49:39 -0700, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
>(keith gustafson)
>altavoz: It's over your "power distribution" head , it's called
>electronics.
> Ground is relevent . Naming one source would be all college level
>text books on electronics .
I name Wie Funktioniert Das?, published in 1663 by Bibliographisches
Institut (translated to The Way Things Work by C van Amerongen MSc
AMICE in 1967). Unfortunatelt, I can't find my 'A' level
(pre-University qualification in the UK) text, so I'll just let it
stand.
Your turn.
Michael Palmer
Brent A. Peterson wrote:
<*snip*>
>
> From Mark's stanard handbook for mechanical engineers 9th ed,
> copyright 1987, page 15-80:
>
> "A further development is the application of an ac generator,
> or alternator, combined with a rectifier as the generating
> unit rather than the usual dc generator. One advantage is
> the elimination of the commutator, made up of segments, which
> require some maintenance due to the sparking and wear of the
> carbon brushes. ... This ac development is the result of the
> development of reliable, low-cost germanium and silicon
> semiconductor rectifiers."
>
> That should close the case, but altavoz will simply say
> the handbook is wrong.
>
> -Bp
Yep...expect it. I tried calling his bluff and quoted from a book (I
rather believe I even included the ISBN number for him to find at his
local library) and was simply shrugged off by him posting a follow-up
with the subject "Michael is reading from a book/knows nothing of
alts"...
--
-MP
---------------
1994 Probe GT
Digital Design Engineer
---------------
keith gustafson
I am glad to see people with a better education and library than myself correct
this dodo. I have an idea. This little sparring match was amusing, but what
havoc was he wrought while we were not paying attention? I suggest we make up a
standard post under a heading like, oh say "instructions on altovoz"or "don't
listen to altovoz" and post it at least once a day to these groups[and any
others he lurks in]. The body of the post could explain what a pinhead he is so
anyone who is an infrequent reader, just looking for a little advice won't
accidently read his posts and, God forbid, believe him. If we otherwise ignore
him, maybe he'll just go away[sorry wishful thinking] I mean these groups are
for people of varying levels of experience/knowledge etc. to interact and some
less informed people could accidently read one of his more bizzare
pronouncements and it will get locked into their head as fact. I shiver at the
thought of little altovozettes roaming the internet.........
Kevin McMurtrie, email to wco.com
In article <33B16A...@pacbell.net>, NS_mugwump2@pacbell/net wrote:
>Nolan Penney wrote:
>>
>> > How many commutator bars would you need , idiot, for a 12 pole,3 ph gen
>>
>> Only an idiot would dream up 3 phase *generators* Altavoz.
>>
>> > I've never known anyone to be wrong so many times and not be red faced
>>
>> Yes, I'd saw we've all noted that about you.
>
>Has anyone confirmed that this turkey is real? I'm beginning to think
>"alternating altavoz" is
>some eight year old having fun with his folks computer. Seems about his
>comprehension level. Can't believe ANY adult is this dumb.
. . .
People really are that dumb. I used to work at a video store and every once in a while this auto painter would come in high off paint fumes. I guess he liked to sit in a sealed room while painting cars or something. Eventually he couldn't sign his own name or talk in complete sentences. Last I heard of him, he unknowing crapped down his pants onto the floor while walking through the store.
I suspect Altavoz wears diapers for similar reasons. I'm putting him in my killfile so I don't have to put up with his interruptions any more.
altavoz
Just to keep anyone from trying to use their alternator 10 feet outside
of their car, I thought the following quotes from the 3rd Edition of the
Bosch Automotive Handbook (pubhlished in 1993) would be interesting:
page 768 "The alternator actually produces alternating current. The
vehicle's electrical system, on the other hand, requires direct current
to recharge the battery and operate the electrical equipment;..."
page 769 "As direct current is required for charging the battery, a
rectifier must be provided to convert the alternator's three-phase
alternating current into DC."
page 770 "The already very familiar mechanical concept embodied in this
alternator type has completely replaced the earlier DC generator as the
standard design in automotive applications."
By its very definition an ALTERNATOR produces ALTERNATING current, AC. A
generator produces DC voltage. The reason cars have switched to
alternators is because they are much more efficient and inexpensive
compared to generators.
By the way, I referenced the Bosch Automotive Handbook since they have
produced an alternator or two (or 200 million) and should know a bit
about them.
altavoz: Are youasking us to take Bosch over our college text books ?!
What a joke .
The quantity of alternators does not allow Bosch to rewrite our
text books .
altavoz
altavoz wrote:
> altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
> this . Out of a car , anything goes.
Depends where you connect the Common connection of your measuring
device, ie, the black probe of your vom, or the ground lead of your
'scope. Doesn't have to be the car chassis. Of course you'll need to
dig inside the alternator to get to the AC.
--
Gene
altavoz: Would you like to tell us why you would confuse and
use 2 grnd ref's ?
Hairy One Kenobi
On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:55:02 -0400, "Charles B. Schroebel"
<csch...@umabnet.ab.umd.edu> wrote:
> You can have ac in the presence of a dc offset. What are you calling
>ground? The ground in a standard American market automobile is attached
>directly to the (-) terminal of the storage battery. That would make the
>high side of the alt output ac + 12vdc the result could (and will) > 12v
>part of the time. Rectification doesn't help. AC coupling before
>rectification does help. Shouldn't be a problem in either case. More
>of a problem are hot cases in voltage covertors where 120v is applied to
>the chassis. That's a problem of poor design/poor components.
I beleive that, technically, AC has to average zero volts. Don't sweat
it. Everyone would agree that a large swing on a DC level would
constitute some form of AC in the real world, while a small relative
"wobble" would constitute DC with a ripple. Leave this to one of the
EE groups!
altavoz
As long as we are keeping confusion to a minimum, by specifying a common
ground reference, there is no 240 vac single phase in my house. It makes
no
difference that my water heater and baseboard heaters have no neutral or
ground connections (old house). Only 120 volts anywhere in my house,
even
though the equipment nameplates say otherwise. I'm certainly much less
confused.
--
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
altavoz: Right ! Just like trying to take anything too far . Like
a common gnd on a power plant in India and one in the US .....you'd
need a long test lead would you not ?!! common sense is needed here.
In any system , you must try to use convention that will not confuse.
Using 2 or more gnds when not necessary will lose you respect.
altavoz
Please be careful when referring to yourself as an engineer. Most places
have laws against the misuse of this term.
--
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
altavoz: The same govt that inforces those laws, titles engineers who
have neither the engineering nor the math . You are a liar, there are
no such laws .
There are no laws punishing self taught elect' engineers . When i
started in the 70's , i worked with many of those self taught
engineers . It's industry that makes the rules , not your corrupt
govt land grant college .
I spent 19 years at elect' and have the eng' and the math/calculus .
But most important is here and now . I have stated that in a car ,
alts must produce pulsating DC and no AC . Eventually , i will win as
more join the arguement.
altavoz
> altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
> this . Out of a car , anything goes.
AC means Alternating Current. It does not say anything about positive or
negative. All you need for AC is fluctuation. You can have an AC voltage
with a DC offset and all of it be above zero volt or ground or whatever
you use for voltage reference. In the car, out of the car, on Earth or
in
space. AC is AC and DC is DC.
-------------------------------------------------------
Matt Ho
mh...@lbl.gov
altavoz: No , the alternating does not mean alternate between
2 DC values . "IT" does say AC goes pos/neg .
altavoz
I.e. IT CROSSES 0V!
Without looking carefully you could easily miss this -0.6V dip on a
typical
scope, after all it's only 4% of the trace height.
By Altavoz's definition, it must therefore be A.C. So, Mr Altavoz, you
were close, but not quite right. Thank you for engaging us in a
stimulating
debate.
- Adam
altavoz: Now back to reality . Rick Jones said "hook it to the AC
tap on the alternator" . In the real world , you will not get any sig'
AC from gnd to stator . An AC load will see pulsating DC , not AC .
When i corrected Rick , i wanted him to respect the fact that i was
not nit picking , and that i meant an AC load hooked up to his claimed
AC tap would not see AC .
Loren Schaeffler
altavoz wrote:
>
> Cactus Jack wrote:
> > <*snip*>
> > >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
> > >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
> > >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
> >
> > Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
> > DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
> > rectified by the diodes?????
> >
> >
>
> Altavoz has been quite clear on his position in this matter: his
> assertion is that there is no AC to be found anywhere inside a working
> alternator.
>
> I await with eager anticipation his forthcoming detailed explanation of
> the operation of the alternators he's experienced do not generate AC
> prior to their rectification stage.
>
at least in older Mopar vehicles, are 3 phase AC devices that use 6
diodes to rectify the 3 phase "AC". The alternator's output is a
pulsating "DC".
Loren
Mark McGuigan
On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:26:15 -0700, Nolan Penney <npe...@erols.com>
wrote:
I guess the engineers that designed the ALTERNATing current generatOR
named it wrong. Should have been dcernator.
Clarence Snyder
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:35:27 -0700, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
>Cactus Jack wrote:
>> <*snip*>
>> >>altavoz: You could not possibly be an engineer , as we are taught
>> >>that AC must go positive and negative . Alts in cars don't
>> >>do that , so we call it DC . Pulsating DC .
>>
>> Just curious, do you mean to say that the alternator ITSELF puts out
>> DC, or are you talking about the output AFTER the juice has been
>> rectified by the diodes?????
>>
>> Just curious.
>>
>
>Altavoz has been quite clear on his position in this matter: his
>assertion is that there is no AC to be found anywhere inside a working
>alternator.
>
>I await with eager anticipation his forthcoming detailed explanation of
>the operation of the alternators he's experienced do not generate AC
>prior to their rectification stage.
>
>--
>-MP
>
>
>
>altavoz: Ac must go pos and neg . In a car , an alt does not do
>this . Out of a car , anything goes.
First of all, what does AC stand for?
Right!!! Alternating current. Now, we all know voltage is the pressure
or force that causes current flow through a resistance. An easy way to
determine if a current is alternating is to use a CURRENT probe, not a
voltage probe, to check the circuit. IF the current reverses itself,at
any point in a circuit, you have alternating current. PERIOD, DOT,
END.
If the current is alternating, the voltage is also alternating, or AC
Voltage.
The current in the stator windings of any alternator reverses itself
every time a pole is passed. By this observation, we KNOW that
alternating current, and therefor AC Voltage is present in the
alternator.
An even easier test is to use an analog meter (low reading),
preferably center Zero, and connect it to the stator side of a diode,
and the Wye connection. Energize the field (rotor) and slowly turn the
alternator.
Watch that little sucker dance to both sides of zero. The fact that
the needle moves both ways proves there is alternating current, and
therefor AC voltage present. If it is alternating current, and
therefore AC Voltage with the alternator sitting on the bench, it sure
does not become anything else just because I , or even the great "A"
bolt it into , or onto, a car.
Ontario Interprovincial Class "A" Mechanic
Recycled as Computer Solution Provider
Business Vision Platinum ATSO
Business Management systems you will not outgrow
To reply, drop the r - reply to cls...@ibm.net.
Too many misdirected replies filling my box
altavoz
>Nolan , no-nothing said:
>You can easily make a dc generator with 12 poles actually. They're just
>large, heavy, and not well suited for living under an automobiles hood.
>
>altavoz: IDIOT ! The reason you can not do that is , have you ever
>noticed
>the relationship between the number of rotor and stator poles!
>A DC gen needs to have arm poles that match up to stator ( fld) poles .
>Here's the killer....
>How many commutator bars would you need , idiot, for a 12 pole,3 ph gen
> NOT ECONOMICALLY DOABLE .
> I've never known anyone to be wrong so many times and not be red faced
Clarence:
Commutator bars on an ALTERNATOR????
altavoz: No Clarence , not on an alt , on a DC gen . We're comparing the
DC gen commutator bars required to equal a 12 pole alt . We are arguing
about why the DC gen died long ago . It died cause you can't put many
bars on a DC gen , and typical Auto NG every one has to argue a
different
reason . The real reason is that the commmutator bars would be to many
and the brushes would be too thin .
Mark MarKell
Mr. Altovoz should be aware that representing himself as an Electrical
Engineer (Clearly not the case) does have some legal consequences,
even in New Jersey, which is where idt.net is based. He has certainly
taken up an extraordinary amount of time and effort from all us
'Grease monkeys' , even those of us who are amateur Grease monkeys,
(Yes, I proudly come to work each Monday with grease under each
and every fingernail) considering the lack of real content of his posts.
Mr. Penney has been very patient considering the principal title this
thread has been circulating under.
Mark MarKell, PE
Newberg, Oregon
Nolan Penney
> reason . The real reason is that the commmutator bars would be to many
> and the brushes would be too thin .
Remember what I said about it being perfectly possible to build a 12 pole generator? That
it would be too large and heavy for an automobile?
"You can easily make a dc generator with 12 poles actually. They're just
large, heavy, and not well suited for living under an automobiles hood."
You had a tantrum, called me names, and said it was impossible to do.
"IDIOT ! The reason you can not do that is..."
You even made up something about economics, which has nothing to do with the engineering.
Something I didn't say btw.
"NOT ECONOMICALLY DOABLE ."
Now you have said I'm absolutely correct. For that problem with small brushes is...solved!
With the use of a large (and hence heavy) commenuter in a...large and heavy generator. One
which would not be well suited for automobiles, *EXACTLY* as I noted!
Thank you Tom Scott for noting (a) how right I am, and (b) how wrong you are.
So, how goes it bending the front axles on your fwd Honda for better handling? I'm still
laughing over that one.
ROTFLMAO!!!
Sorry, it just gets me every time I think of that one! <g>
Allen Madding
altavoz wrote:
>
> altavoz: Right ! Just like trying to take anything too far . Like
> a common gnd on a power plant in India and one in the US .....you'd
> need a long test lead would you not ?!! common sense is needed here.
> In any system , you must try to use convention that will not confuse.
> Using 2 or more gnds when not necessary will lose you respect.
AHHH finally an area of knowledge and expertise...how to loose respect!
marilou
Nolan Penney wrote:
>
> Many folks are getting very upset at Altavoz. Myself, I think he's fun,
> but then I always did enjoy lab experiments. <g>
>
> Ssince he goes to pretty great lengths to hide behind a ficticious name,
> unmasking him could do the trick at getting rid of him. Especially if the
> unmasking weren't to merely end at finding his name, but to take it
> further, find out where he hails from, and as much information as we can
> find on him. His address, where he works, etc. *Especially* where he
> works. Can you imagine what would happen to him if we were all to start
> calling his boss about his briliance and antics here?
> Phone rings, "hell Mr Boss? Do you really employ an Altavoz as an
> engineer? He's been telling us all how jews suck and ac current is
> really dc, and women are inferior. Is this the sort of employee you want
> at your company? Is this the sort of image you want presented?"
> Oh, it would hurt him!
>
> Now apparently his name may be Tom Scott (as per the Hairy One Kanobi).
>
> If we all start seriously attempting to ferret him out, and make it quite
> public as we go along, he will probably run away as fast as his pudgy
> little legs will carry him. I'm sure he'll scream a few things, but he'd
> be screaming over his shoulder as he goes.
That works both ways. The guy is sick. Think of what he could do to
you.
Mary Robinson
Remove the spam blocker in my return address if you wish to send me
mail.
Nolan Penney
Craig Keener
Nolan Penney wrote:
>
> Many folks are getting very upset at Altavoz. Myself, I think he's fun,
> but then I always did enjoy lab experiments. <g>
>
> Ssince he goes to pretty great lengths to hide behind a ficticious name,
> unmasking him could do the trick at getting rid of him. Especially if the
> unmasking weren't to merely end at finding his name, but to take it
> further, find out where he hails from, and as much information as we can
> find on him. His address, where he works, etc. *Especially* where he
> works. Can you imagine what would happen to him if we were all to start
> calling his boss about his briliance and antics here?
Nolan,
You must have missed part of our earlier flame war. Not only
was his name revealed but his address and phone # were offered as
well. I personally have no need or desire to know such information,
though I must admit that at first I was somewhat aghast to hear he lived
only two hours away from my humble abode. A few weeks back I also
posted an in-person challenge to the 'voz which he so rudely ignored.
He'd been claiming for months that catalytic converters do nothing to
reduce emissions, and said repeatedly that one cannot detect a missing
or gutted cat w/test equipment! He'd also been dispensing sagely advice
on how to go about gutting a converter too.
The challenge was that I'd bet him $1000, $1500, or any amount
of money he was prepared to lose...to be donated to charity...that I
could easily detect a gutted cat by machine out of any number of
vehicles with functional converters. I was willing to drive out to his
location with a portable analyzer for this contest, and I explained that
we could have some third party from the Tri-State area umpire and hold
onto the cash. My offer still stands and I'd really like to hear
Altavoz's...err..Tom's answer to this challenge. Say, maybe if you join
us he'd be willing to teach you that FWD axle-bending technique he's
developed....or at the very least allow you road-test the
new-and-improved handling abilities of that '82 Honda!
BTW, apparently our friend no longer works or answers to a boss
of any kind, which does explain why he has so much time on his hands.
He's said previously that he "retired" early, spends all day pursuing
his many hobbies, and currently gets his income from the stock market.
Almost makes you wish for that long-term market correction they've been
forcasting....;-)
-Bodnar,B.L.
In article <33B270F3...@progsoc.uts.edu.au>,
Cam <"cam[NoSpam]"@progsoc.uts.edu.au> wrote:
>discard...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>> page 770 "The already very familiar mechanical concept embodied in this
>> alternator type has completely replaced the earlier DC generator as the
>> standard design in automotive applications."
>>
>> By its very definition an ALTERNATOR produces ALTERNATING current, AC. A
>> generator produces DC voltage. The reason cars have switched to
>> alternators is because they are much more efficient and inexpensive
>> compared to generators.
>
>because
>alternators require much less maintainence and last longer (no
>commutator needed, no brushes etc ...)
>
>--
>Cam! -=DUH#3=- (Y1)
>"Flames!, Who me officer ?, These tyres ?"
Two more items:
- no need for preliminary magnetization of the DC generator
- inherent current limiting in AC generators (i.e., voltage regulator design
is simplified).
I find all of Altavoz's tirades somewhat amusing -- he reminds me so much of
some sophomoric undergraduate students I had in the early 1980s who thought
they knew basic switching theory (they wanted to place out of a course I was
teaching). I gave them a simple exam -- it was returned blank (the exam was
open-book). Their attitudes underwent a remarkable change...
Bohdan Bodnar
bbo...@lucent.com
Hairy One Kenobi
On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:01:30 -0700, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
Germany and the UK have specific laws governing the use and misuse of
the term "engineer" with relation to specific claims. As do all member
states of the EU (it's an EC law). Most affiliated coutries, such as
scandenavian, have similar laws.
Traditionally, self-taught engineers are usually referred to as
"tinkers". Exceptions include entreupreneurs and corpses.
Ray McNairy
Craig Keener wrote:
SNIP
> BTW, apparently our friend no longer works or answers to a boss
> of any kind, which does explain why he has so much time on his hands.
> He's said previously that he "retired" early, spends all day pursuing
> his many hobbies, and currently gets his income from the stock market.
> Almost makes you wish for that long-term market correction they've been
> forcasting....;-)
Might it be true that this is just "altavoz speak" for being unemployed
and living off the taxpayers? Think MacDonalds and Jiffylube are having
hard times in his area. I haven't found any truth to any of his claims
yet.
--
Ciao, Ray (Boomer) McNairy
"624"
Hairy One Kenobi
On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:19:04 -0700, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
>altavoz: Are youasking us to take Bosch over our college text books ?!
> What a joke .
>The quantity of alternators does not allow Bosch to rewrite our
>text books .
Why? Do you have something against "self taught" companies that hav
experience beyond the "1970s" (I refer to your earlier post. Put
forward one single book, pamphlet, or quotation that agrees with you
stipulations. You have had many, many books quoted back at you. You
have had decades of experience from both self-taught and qualified
engineers quoted back at you.
I'll take myself at an example:
{EGO}
Honours degree in Mechanical Engineering, Imperial College, London
1985-88
Associate of the City & Guilds Institute [the UK body that sets
engineering standards and examsinations]
Pre-university higher qualifications in Maths, Physics, Chemistry,
Advanced Maths, Electronics.
Nine years computing experience in a wide variety of fields, including
aircraft control systems , military acoustic analysis systems, City
realtime data feeds, and manufacturing systems.
Thirteen years' experience in restoring, maintaining and constructing
cars.
{/EGO}
Your turn, Put up or shut up. Asshole.
Hairy One Kenobi
On Wed, 25 Jun 1997 23:14:36 -0700, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
>altavoz: Now back to reality . Rick Jones said "hook it to the AC
>tap on the alternator" . In the real world , you will not get any sig'
>AC from gnd to stator . An AC load will see pulsating DC , not AC .
> When i corrected Rick , i wanted him to respect the fact that i was
>not nit picking , and that i meant an AC load hooked up to his claimed
>AC tap would not see AC .
oh dear. altavoz disease seems to be catching. my shift and
punctuation keys have stopped working! nxt thung i no, mi spulling and
gramer up f*cked will be.
Nah. Must have been imagining it.
Matt Ho
In article <33AEA7...@mail.idt.net>, alta...@mail.idt.net wrote:
> altavoz: They both make AC til you put diodes in alt and gnd it and
> DC gen makes AC til you give it brushes to "rectify" it to pulsating
> DC .
> But the most important diff' is that the alt is not as limited in
> the number of poles on the field .
Yes it is. If it is a 3 phase then it is limited to 2 poles. This number,
however, jumps to 6 poles with a 4 phase AC alternator.
>It's difficult to make a DC gen
> with 12 poles.
Seen it done on a 79 Fiat. The unit looks quite simple actually.
> Alts put out >50% at idle ( 1500 RPM).
Due to the law of physics, alternators has a maximum efficiency of 35% at
around 6000-7000 RPM so there is no way it can put out 50% at idle unless
it runs in AC mode with 4 AC capacitors.
----------------------------------------------------------
Matt Ho
mh...@lbl.gov
Nolan Penney
Altavoz is starting to panic over this already! Claiming calls to the
FBI and all sorts of other stuff.
He's already sent me a "secret" personal threat letter about it.
Here it is:
"altavoz: Before you waste a lot of your time , waste some long
distance tolls and you'l find me here 24 hours a day , does that
sound like one who must punch a clock/go to a work site ?
And now to make you tremble in your boots . I have filed a complaint
with your ISP, employer and the FBI. The above threats qaulify you
for investigation by that FED agency .
Yawnnnnnn. Actually ppl are getting tired of you ."
Yes!!!!!
He's getting upset and flighty.
Oh, Altavoz, if you actually were to make a call to the FBI about me,
you'll be most disapointed. They know me, quite well, to your
detriment. I've got a very nice and pretty file with them. So when
they start to investigate the complaintant (you)...
Well, you're words will speak for you here on the web.
discard...@worldnet.att.net
altavoz wrote:
>
> Just to keep anyone from trying to use their alternator 10 feet outside
> of their car, I thought the following quotes from the 3rd Edition of the
> Bosch Automotive Handbook (pubhlished in 1993) would be interesting:
>
> page 768 "The alternator actually produces alternating current. The
> vehicle's electrical system, on the other hand, requires direct current
> to recharge the battery and operate the electrical equipment;..."
>
> page 769 "As direct current is required for charging the battery, a
> rectifier must be provided to convert the alternator's three-phase
> alternating current into DC."
>
> alternator type has completely replaced the earlier DC generator as the
> standard design in automotive applications."
>
> By its very definition an ALTERNATOR produces ALTERNATING current, AC. A
> generator produces DC voltage. The reason cars have switched to
> alternators is because they are much more efficient and inexpensive
> compared to generators.
>
> produced an alternator or two (or 200 million) and should know a bit
> about them.
>
> What a joke .
> The quantity of alternators does not allow Bosch to rewrite our
> text books .
Actually my college EE textbooks agree with Bosch, but they didn't quite
say it as succinctly. And since I'm just a silly Mechanical Engineer who
merely worked on the mechanical design of ALTERNATors, what would I
know.
Steve Alexanderson
Our state's Board of Engineering Examiners went after a "domestic
engineering" company (maid service). They backed off (rightly), after they
determined that nobody was being mislead into thinking they were dealing
with licensed engineers. The laws exist and are enforced here.
--
Steve Alexanderson
Newport Oregon
altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net> wrote in article
<33B205...@mail.idt.net>...
Mark
altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>>Nolan , no-nothing said:
>>You can easily make a dc generator with 12 poles actually. They're just
>>large, heavy, and not well suited for living under an automobiles hood.
>>
>>altavoz: IDIOT ! The reason you can not do that is , have you ever
>>noticed
>>the relationship between the number of rotor and stator poles!
>>A DC gen needs to have arm poles that match up to stator ( fld) poles .
>>Here's the killer....
>>How many commutator bars would you need , idiot, for a 12 pole,3 ph gen
>>?
>> NOT ECONOMICALLY DOABLE .
>> I've never known anyone to be wrong so many times and not be red faced
>>!
>Clarence:
>Commutator bars on an ALTERNATOR????
>altavoz: No Clarence , not on an alt , on a DC gen . We're comparing the
>DC gen commutator bars required to equal a 12 pole alt . We are arguing
>about why the DC gen died long ago . It died cause you can't put many
>bars on a DC gen , and typical Auto NG every one has to argue a
>different
>reason . The real reason is that the commmutator bars would be to many
>and the brushes would be too thin .
The reason DC generators went away was the fact that the brushes had
to carry all the output current. Alternator brushes only carry a
couple of amps to excite the field, and so live longer. The need for
outputs of around 100 amps made DC brushes impractical.
Matt Ho
> altavoz: No , the alternating does not mean alternate between
> 2 DC values . "IT" does say AC goes pos/neg .
No "IT" does not say that. I just reread "IT" just now. "IT" says "AC is
the fluctuation between two volatges regardless of polarity".
-------------------------------------------------------
Matt Ho
mh...@lbl.gov
Mis...@an.eous
altavoz wrote:
>
> Just to keep anyone from trying to use their alternator 10 feet outside
> of their car, I thought the following quotes from the 3rd Edition of the
> Bosch Automotive Handbook (pubhlished in 1993) would be interesting:
>
> page 768 "The alternator actually produces alternating current. The
> vehicle's electrical system, on the other hand, requires direct current
> to recharge the battery and operate the electrical equipment;..."
>
> page 769 "As direct current is required for charging the battery, a
> rectifier must be provided to convert the alternator's three-phase
> alternating current into DC."
>
> page 770 "The already very familiar mechanical concept embodied in this
> alternator type has completely replaced the earlier DC generator as the
> standard design in automotive applications."
>
> By its very definition an ALTERNATOR produces ALTERNATING current, AC. A
> generator produces DC voltage. The reason cars have switched to
> alternators is because they are much more efficient and inexpensive
> compared to generators.
>
> By the way, I referenced the Bosch Automotive Handbook since they have
> produced an alternator or two (or 200 million) and should know a bit
> about them.
>
> altavoz: Are youasking us to take Bosch over our college text books ?!
> What a joke .
> The quantity of alternators does not allow Bosch to rewrite our
> text books .
But college is for idiots according to altavoz, and books are not any
good, even though altavoz has referenced several in the past few days,
so books from college must be real bad and stupid and all that nonsense.
Besides who would know more about electricity in cars, bosch, who has
been manufacturing electrical parts for decades, or some college book
writing desk jockey? Hmmm.
By the way altavoz, what do you read with your fancy oscilloscope if you
hook onto the "p" terminal on say an 87 sunbird with the regulator
energized? Or maybe the same terminal on a, I don't know, '94
Bonneville? Try it and let me know, I am interested to find out.
Just post to the news group.
Michael Kohlbrenner
altavoz wrote:
>
> ...I thought the following quotes from the 3rd Edition of the
> Bosch Automotive Handbook (pubhlished in 1993) would be interesting:
>
...
> altavoz: Are youasking us to take Bosch over our college text books ?!
> What a joke .
> The quantity of alternators does not allow Bosch to rewrite our
> text books .
OK, there, Alternatorvos, since you are so hell-bent on the
irrefutability of college texts, I'm-a-gonna call your bluff!
Please give us a direct quote from any college textbook of your
choice that shows that the above quote from the Bosch book is
incorrect. Title, author(s) and date of publication, also, please.
We patiently await your response...
--
Mike Kohlbrenner
<kohl...@an.hp.com>
Cam
discard...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> page 770 "The already very familiar mechanical concept embodied in this
> alternator type has completely replaced the earlier DC generator as the
> standard design in automotive applications."
>
> By its very definition an ALTERNATOR produces ALTERNATING current, AC. A
> generator produces DC voltage. The reason cars have switched to
> alternators is because they are much more efficient and inexpensive
> compared to generators.
I dunno about more efficient or inexpensive, i think the main reason is
Bruce Hamilton
In article <33B310...@worldnet.att.net>
discard...@worldnet.att.net writes:
>altavoz wrote:
[ earlier quote from Bosch Handbooks deleted ]
>> Are you asking us to take Bosch over our college text books ?!
>> What a joke. The quantity of alternators does not allow Bosch
>Actually my college EE textbooks agree with Bosch, but they didn't quite
>say it as succinctly.
Surely by now you realise that Altavoz's college text books are filled
with numbered illustrations, and come with paint or crayons?.
He apparently doen't even know that the Bosch Handbook is one of
the most respected automotive reference books, and that many
professional groups endeavour to provide it at discount to members.
There must, by now, be amazing odds favouring those who
automatically choose the opposite stance to Altavoz actually
being correct.
Ignorance is curable, arrogant and abusive stupidity obviously isn't.
Bruce Hamilton
Clarence Snyder
On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 00:04:04 -0700, altavoz <alta...@mail.idt.net>
wrote:
>>Nolan , no-nothing said:
>>You can easily make a dc generator with 12 poles actually. They're just
>>large, heavy, and not well suited for living under an automobiles hood.
>>
>>altavoz: IDIOT ! The reason you can not do that is , have you ever
>>noticed
>>the relationship between the number of rotor and stator poles!
>>A DC gen needs to have arm poles that match up to stator ( fld) poles .
>>Here's the killer....
>>How many commutator bars would you need , idiot, for a 12 pole,3 ph gen
>>?
>> NOT ECONOMICALLY DOABLE .
>> I've never known anyone to be wrong so many times and not be red faced
>>!
>
>Clarence:
>Commutator bars on an ALTERNATOR????
>
>
>altavoz: No Clarence , not on an alt , on a DC gen . We're comparing the
>DC gen commutator bars required to equal a 12 pole alt . We are arguing
>about why the DC gen died long ago . It died cause you can't put many
>bars on a DC gen , and typical Auto NG every one has to argue a
>different
>reason . The real reason is that the commmutator bars would be to many
>and the brushes would be too thin .
You said 3 phase - 3 phase means AC, as there is no such thing as a DC
Phase.DC is steady.
Also, the generator is heavier, less reliable, larger, more expensive
to produce, harder to regulate, etc. etc. etc.
The alternator does not require an iron case so it is lighter, only
the low field current is carried by the brushes, which can be much
smaller and lighter, or even dispensed with entirely. Commutation is
much more efficient (solid state). No cutout relay or current
regulator is required.
These are a few of the reasons the DC dynamo is obsolete.
The fact that an alternator charges at a lower speed is a bonus, as is
the fact that it can be spun much faster without self destructing
(unwinding the armature, exploding the commutator, etc.)
sbl...@linknet.net
alternating current
A direct current (DC) always flows through a conductor in one
direction, but an alternating current (AC) constantly reverses itself
as a result of reversing electromotive force. One complete reversal
is a cycle, and the number of cycles per second is the frequency of
the alternating current. The standard frequency of alternating
current in the United States and the rest of North America is 60 Hz (1
Hz, or hertz, equals 1 cycle per second); in Europe it is 50 Hz.
Originally, only direct current was generated for public use. The
enormous advantages of alternating current were not realized until
George Westinghouse developed the TRANSFORMER in the late 19th
century. Buffalo, N.Y., was the first U.S. city to be lighted using
alternating current.
The transformer made it possible to change the voltage (and therefore
the current) of AC by a simple, static device; this was not possible
with DC. When electricity is transmitted, power loss is minimized by
stepping up the voltage from the generator, thus transmitting a high
voltage, and stepping down the voltage at the user's end. When
required, DC is easily obtained from an AC current with a RECTIFIER.
Converting DC to AC requires an inverter, which is a more complex
device. AC motors and alternators (AC generators) have greater
reliability than their DC counterparts, because they do not require
commutators (metal slip-rings for picking up current).
The two main types of generators are direct-current (DC) generators
and alternating-current (AC) generators, or alternators. The DC
generator rotates the conductors in a stationary magnetic field. The
alternator rotates a magnetic field that is cut by the stationary
conductors. Current induced in the conductors of all generators is an
alternating current. The current taken from the generator for the
electrical load circuit, however, may be either AC or DC, depending on
how the generator is constructed.
The strength of the voltage induced in the conductor depends on its
speed and on the strength of the magnetic field. The magnetic field
may be furnished by a permanent magnet or by current flowing through
field coils to form an electromagnet. When the ends of the conductor
are connected to form a complete circuit, the induced voltage causes a
current to flow in the external circuit.
Components
The principal components of a DC generator are the armature,
commutator, field poles, brushes and brush rigging, yoke or frame, and
end bells or end frames. Other components found on some DC generators
are interpoles, compensating windings, and various controls and
devices for regulating the generated voltage and current output.
Direct-current generators have a commutator mounted on one end of the
armature shaft. The commutator rectifies or changes the alternating
current in the conductors into direct current. Brushes mounted in
holders ride on the rotating commutator bars and carry the direct
current from the commutator to the external load circuit.
In an alternator, the armature coils, or stationary conductors, are
held in place in slots in the alternator frame. The field coils are
wound on poles or slots around the rotating shaft. The assembly that
contains the stationary conductors is called the STATOR. The assembly
that includes the rotating poles and field coils is called the ROTOR.
Most alternators use brushes and slip rings on the rotor to pass
direct current to the revolving field windings. Some alternators do
not use any type of brushes or slip rings.
Donald L. Anglin
Bibliography: Alerich, W. N., Electricity Four, 4th ed. (1986);
Bleaney, B. I. and B., Electricity and Magnetism, 3d ed. (1976); De
France, J. J., Electrical Fundamentals, 2d ed. (1983); Ryff, P. F.,
Electrical Machinery, 5th ed. (1990).
This text is quoted directly form the grolier multimedia
encyclopedia!!! 1995 edition (the only one I had)
Small Block
Chevy Mania
Craig Keener
Matt Ho wrote:
>
> In article <33B1FA...@mail.idt.net>, alta...@mail.idt.net wrote:
>
> > altavoz: No , the alternating does not mean alternate between
> > 2 DC values . "IT" does say AC goes pos/neg .
>
> No "IT" does not say that. I just reread "IT" just now. "IT" says "AC is
> the fluctuation between two volatges regardless of polarity".
Say what?? I'm afraid you're going to have to qualify that
statement and also provide the name of your source. The way I read your
definition a 0 to +5v square wave would also be considered AC!! That
sure isn't the way I learned it, nor do I ever recall seeing such an
absurdity in *any* EE text either. If I've misread something please
enlighten me as to what you actually meant.
- Craig
Ken Payne
Nolan Penney <npe...@erols.com> wrote:
>Many folks are getting very upset at Altavoz. Myself, I think he's fun,
>but then I always did enjoy lab experiments. <g>
>
>Ssince he goes to pretty great lengths to hide behind a ficticious name,
>unmasking him could do the trick at getting rid of him. Especially if the
>unmasking weren't to merely end at finding his name, but to take it
>further, find out where he hails from, and as much information as we can
>find on him. His address, where he works, etc. *Especially* where he
>works. Can you imagine what would happen to him if we were all to start
>calling his boss about his briliance and antics here?
>Phone rings, "hell Mr Boss? Do you really employ an Altavoz as an
>engineer? He's been telling us all how jews suck and ac current is
>really dc, and women are inferior. Is this the sort of employee you want
>at your company? Is this the sort of image you want presented?"
>Oh, it would hurt him!
>
>Now apparently his name may be Tom Scott (as per the Hairy One Kanobi).
>
>If we all start seriously attempting to ferret him out, and make it quite
>public as we go along, he will probably run away as fast as his pudgy
>little legs will carry him. I'm sure he'll scream a few things, but he'd
>be screaming over his shoulder as he goes.
>
>
I've got a name, address and telephone plus a map to his place (no
kidding).
He reminds me of a dumb-sh*t when I lived in Ft. Lauderdale back
in the CB days. This guy would cuss people out, make fun of their
wives and call their 7-10 year daughters sluts on the CB. One day
a guy got on the air and said "shut up, this is your last warning".
The jerk spouted off insults and that night 8 guys showed up at his
house, went inside, beat the sh*t out of him (broke one arm and his
jaw), trashed his car with baseball bats and lastly - destroyed his
CB. One month later the guy was back on the air, with apologies and
he became a very "docile" CB'er.
Hopefully Altavoz won't have to get a wood shampoo to learn not to be
such an ass (even though he really deserves one, complete with hockey
stick conditioner). One day this bozo is going to step on the wrong
toes and someone pissed off Marine or Navy Seal going to beat the hell
out of him - or worse.
-Ken
1967 Ford F100, 390FE V8 - Fordnatic
To send me email: kpayne*spam-remove*@mindspring.com
Check out the free Ford Truck (and Van) Enthusiasts Web Site/Email List.
Questions, answers, ads, discussion... all free. 800 members and growing.
http://www.dragonfire.net/~site/fordtrucks
F-Series, E-Series, Rangers, Broncos, Bronco IIs, Explorers, Expeditions,
Rancheros and pre-F Series trucks covered.
altavoz
Bruce Hamilton
altavoz: Are you qualified to judge electrics , Bruce ?