Any Disadvantages to Platinum Plugs?
Rajendra Singh
which didn't come with them originally (from the factory)? I know they're
expensive, but I don't mind if it'll mean a little improved performance.
BTW, it's for a 2.2L Turbocharged/Intercooled 4 cyl. engine.
--
Raj (si...@r-node.hub.org)
Steven J Orlin
In article <C84E1...@r-node.hub.org> si...@r-node.hub.org (Rajendra Singh) wr
ites:
>Are there any disadvantages to installing platinum spark plugs in a car
>which didn't come with them originally (from the factory)? I know they're
Yes, decreased plug life, more money.
>expensive, but I don't mind if it'll mean a little improved performance.
the performace gain if any will be so minimal, that the less weight from your
wallet will probably make you go faster.
steve
Aitech Intern'l Corp
As far as I know, platinium plug holds the gap-width longer, i.e., typical
spark plug gap widens in 5-10k miles, while platinium should last 20k miles
or more. However, my experience on Borsch Platinum was that the tiny tip
can be easily clog by carbon residue and degrading performance prematurely.
I'm interested to hear about Champion's platinum plug, though.
Casey
Andrew C. Canavan
once again I have to fully disagree with Steve. Bosch Platinums on
average cost less than 50 cents a piece more than standard plugs, even
less if you look for the super trick sales. The plug life is greatly
increased also. The recommended service interval by Bosch is about fifty
thousand miles. They also do not require any service during that time,
because of their special ceramic surrounded electrode. Standard plugs
should be gapped about every ten thousand miles or so to keep an accurate
gap, and the're severvice life is about half that of platinum plugs. So
in the end you would be saving money. The standard claims are made about
improved mileage and fuel savings, but they are hard to verify just as a
person using the product. With your application, I would suscpect that
they would work very well. Proper ignition of the air fuel mixture has
traditionally been a problem on stock turboed cars. BTW my Bosch
Platinums cost $1.69 a piece, and I've seen them as low as $1.19 each,
thats basically the same as regular plugs.
Andy
chevys forever
Steven J Orlin
In article <32...@galaxy.ucr.edu> xsb...@mercury.ucr.edu (Andrew C. Canavan) wr
ites:
>
>
>once again I have to fully disagree with Steve. Bosch Platinums on
Once again, I have to say that Andrew has been reading from the packages again.
>average cost less than 50 cents a piece more than standard plugs, even
>less if you look for the super trick sales. The plug life is greatly
>increased also. The recommended service interval by Bosch is about fifty
>thousand miles. They also do not require any service during that time,
yeah, of course they are going to tell you you don't have to replace them as
often. What do you think they'll say?
About the service, bullshit.
The so called "platinum" electrodes shriveled back up into the insulator
after only a few 1000 miles in my 231.
Never had any problems with regular plugs.
>because of their special ceramic surrounded electrode. Standard plugs
Oh yes, very special, especially the way the electrode's diameter is
microscopic. Very good
I recommend sticking to your manufacturer's plugs.
steve
Al Mark
vis...@netcom.com writes:
> In article <C84E1...@r-node.hub.org> si...@r-node.hub.org (Rajendra
Singh) writes:
> >which didn't come with them originally (from the factory)? I know
they're
> >expensive, but I don't mind if it'll mean a little improved
performance.
> >Raj (si...@r-node.hub.org)
> >
>
> As far as I know, platinium plug holds the gap-width longer, i.e.,
typical
> spark plug gap widens in 5-10k miles, while platinium should last 20k
miles
I think the prime benefit of using platinum plugs depends on the access
to your plugs in your engine.....i.e., platinum plugs are a great help
when you practically have to take half your car apart to get to the
plugs. The theory is that due to their assumed longevity, you won't have
to change them as often. If you can get to your plugs easily, use
regular plugs....hell, with the new computerized engines they last at
least 30K miles either way.
********************************************************************
* AL MARK zip it to: am...@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov *
* Jet Propulsion Lab Honk if you like earthquakes! *
* If you're up to here, remember to close your mouth *
* My employer knows nothing about this....I know even less *
********************************************************************---
-------- AL :-(cut here:-)-------------------------------->>>
Raul Alvarez
If your engine has a high energy ignition and/or you run a larger gap than
OEM, you will need to replace them every few hundred miles. For most OEM
applications though, they work well.
Champion makes these plugs, I think they're Gold or Chrome Vadmium, they
work really well, and last long. I used them once, but haven't been able
to find them since.
--
Raul Alvarez ra...@pencom.com 212-513-7777 NeXT Mail OK
Up is on, Down is off.
>increased also. The recommended service interval by Bosch is about fifty
>thousand miles.
Well, here is a contrary opinion based on personal experience. I used
Bosch platinum plugs in my Celica alltrac turbo. They lasted less than
10K miles and gave incredibly (and very noticeably) horrible performance.
I tossed them out and replaced them with the requiredplugs from ND
(japanese brand, I think a toyota subsidiary) which lasted about 50K
on average. (they were the originals supplied with the car) They lasted
about another 40K, when I replaced them because I had various parts
of the engine apart for other servicing. They still had the correct
gap and probably would have lasted much longer, but I chose to
replace them then, and I used NGK plugs this time.
> They also do not require any service during that time,
>because of their special ceramic surrounded electrode.
If they last at all...
>BTW my Bosch
>Platinums cost $1.69 a piece, and I've seen them as low as $1.19 each,
>thats basically the same as regular plugs.
Yeah, they're cheap, and it shows. The plugs I used run almost $11
a piece, but you put them in and don't worry for 50K or so. (They
claim a minimum of 60K, but I seemed to have degredation in performance,
although that could have been caused by other factors, who knows?)
Some differences between the Bosch and ND or NGKs? First, the electrode.
Bosch's is covered by ceramic with a little pinhole in the top, measuring
.3 mm. ND and NGK have exposed electrodes that are a full 1.0 mm
wide. I'm sure you get the picture. In my particular engine, a 2.0
turbo charged Yamaha, the plugs get hot, as the engine runs at
a very hot design temperature. The Bosch plugs just weren't made to
take that environment, evidently.
Ron
DOUG CHRISTENSEN X3915 P6818
and the car developed a severe miss during the race. Switched back
to ND's and it was fine.
I think the problem was the computer didn't like the results of the
burn and tried to overcompensate. The plug looked ok except for some
richness. The Honda computers will do this sometimes. We quit using
Platinums.
I've used platinums in other cars with no problems though. I think
they are good for street use. They last forever. You may not want
to use them in a new Honda.
BTW, we also tried Splitfires. No noticeable performance advantage.
We did melt one electrode after a 4 hour race. We no longer use them
either.
---
*****************************************************************************
* Doug Christensen SCCA SSB Scirocco 16V; Dandee Pocket Bike *
* doug_chr...@pts.mot.com Motorola Paging Group (407)364-3915 *
* *
* "When I'm racing, I'm alive. Everthing else *
* is just waiting." Steve McQueen, Le Mans. *
* *
*Offer void where prohibited. Your milage may vary. Consult you physician.*
*May be hazardous to your health. Batteries not included. Keep out of the *
*reach of children. Employees and family not eligible. Taxes not included.*
*May cause drowsiness. These opinions do not reflect those of my employer. *
*****************************************************************************
Aaron Lung
It seems like platinum plugs are a favorite for a flame-war. No
flames here, but I've used both regular and platinums in my cars for
the past 5 years or so. From what I understand, different cars
may or may not perform differently with the platinums.
I've tried the two in my 84 Toyota Celica, and quite honestly I can't tell
the difference in performance except that the car 'seems' to idle a tad
smoother with the platinums. I'll change the plugs, platinum or not,
every 15K-20K miles anyways...they're cheap enough (relatively speaking).
BMW specifically says to use the standard resistor plugs in some of their
cars as well as some silver plugs in some of the older 3 and 5 series.
There's probably a good reason for them not to specify platinum over
silver plugs (I don't know the specifics)
I've also seen the electode shriveled into the insulator on mine. Actually,
the idea of a tiny electrode has some truth to it, as the charge density
is much more concentrated compared to a regular plug's 'stub' and therefore
providing a hotter spark(?) Maybe someone can elucidate or correct me
on that.
As with Steve, I also say, stick with what your mfr recommends.
aaron
Jonathan Bruce Hacker
>I've also seen the electode shriveled into the insulator on mine. Actually,
>the idea of a tiny electrode has some truth to it, as the charge density
>is much more concentrated compared to a regular plug's 'stub' and therefore
>providing a hotter spark(?) Maybe someone can elucidate or correct me
>on that.
Well from an elctromagnetic viewpoint that is true. An edge or
singularity will tend to concentrate the electric field which will
pre-dispose that area to breakdown (arc). The concept is well proven
in lightning rods, but inside an engine I'm sure the problem is more
complicated.
--
Jon Hacker | OS/2 2.1 has arrived!
Caltech, Pasadena CA | Call 1-800-3-IBM-OS2
hac...@tumbler-ridge.caltech.edu | Read about it in comp.os.os2.*
Val Breault
In article <C84E1...@r-node.hub.org> si...@r-node.hub.org (Rajendra Singh) writes:
>Are there any disadvantages to installing platinum spark plugs in a car
>which didn't come with them originally (from the factory)? I know they're
>expensive, but I don't mind if it'll mean a little improved performance.
>
>BTW, it's for a 2.2L Turbocharged/Intercooled 4 cyl. engine.
>--
>Raj (si...@r-node.hub.org)
The people with the greatest amount of combustin research money, the
greatest number of combustion engineers and the greatest amount of
potential gain or loss are the people that engineered the engine in
your car. If they have a design that works best with conventional
plugs then use the conventional plugs. If the manufacturer engineered
it to exploit the unique characteristics of flint on steel then use
the flint and steel.
The field of combustion analysis and research is populated by lots
of very bright people. There are dozens of things that interact
and affect the way the fuel burns. Those bright people, working
with the clever folks that design the engines, achieve the best
compromise they can.
Some of my "customers" are combustion research engineers.
I've learned a thing or two from them.
--
Val Breault - N8OEF - vbre...@gmr.com \ /|
Instrumentation dept GM NAO R&D Center \ / |
My opinions are not necessarily those of \ /__|
GMR nor of the General Motors Corporation \/ |___
Adam Eberbach
: In article <32...@galaxy.ucr.edu> xsb...@mercury.ucr.edu (Andrew C. Canavan) writes:
[..]
:
: Yeah, they're cheap, and it shows. The plugs I used run almost $11
: a piece, but you put them in and don't worry for 50K or so. (They
Well there's brand loyalty for you. $11 EACH? Did you buy those from a dealer?
: claim a minimum of 60K, but I seemed to have degredation in performance,
: although that could have been caused by other factors, who knows?)
:
: Some differences between the Bosch and ND or NGKs? First, the electrode.
: Bosch's is covered by ceramic with a little pinhole in the top, measuring
: .3 mm. ND and NGK have exposed electrodes that are a full 1.0 mm
: wide. I'm sure you get the picture. In my particular engine, a 2.0
: turbo charged Yamaha, the plugs get hot, as the engine runs at
: a very hot design temperature. The Bosch plugs just weren't made to
: take that environment, evidently.
Bosch regular plugs (and all other brands) come in a wide range of heat
indexes - I, like you, think that using Pt plugs is silly when your engine
is not designed for them. I think I would try some Bosch plugs to see
how they went before I paid $44 for a new set of ND's though. Even in
not-worth-much Australian dollars a new _set_ only costs $12 or so.
:
: Ron
Adam Eberbach, Computer Science student, RMIT. ad...@arcadia.cs.rmit.edu.au
SHELL,MICHAEL DAVID
>
>The people with the greatest amount of combustin research money, the
>greatest number of combustion engineers and the greatest amount of
>potential gain or loss are the people that engineered the engine in
>your car. If they have a design that works best with conventional
>plugs then use the conventional plugs. If the manufacturer engineered
>it to exploit the unique characteristics of flint on steel then use
>the flint and steel.
>
>The field of combustion analysis and research is populated by lots
>of very bright people. There are dozens of things that interact
>and affect the way the fuel burns. Those bright people, working
>with the clever folks that design the engines, achieve the best
>compromise they can.
>
>Some of my "customers" are combustion research engineers.
You sound a bit like my father when I wanted to install a dual exhaust
system in my car. :)
I can tell you that what you buy in the store is almost never correct from
an engineering standpoint. Everything I buy (electrical or mechanical) seems
to need some sort of engineering enhancement before it will work to my
satisfaction. The reason for this is.......you guessed it.....$$$$$.
When the management majors get through with a design, it looks nothing
like the engineers "intended" it to be. I should state this more accurately:
The cost constraints on a design often mandate that the engineers make decisions
that they would not make if they were building the product for their own use.
In a way this is good because it keeps a reasonable lid on prices and boosts
company profits.
However, I would very strongly suggest that when you are maintaining your
car, that you select parts with your own cost/performance/reliablility curve
in mind -> not that of the manufacturer!
BTW, I am not crazy about Platinum Spark Plugs either. A good set of
regular old Champions will make a man healthy, wealthy and wise!
* 1972 Ford Galaxie 500, 351W, Ford AOD Trans, Dual Exhaust *
* 245,000 miles and 21 years can't be wrong. *
Michael Shell Grad EE student at the Georgia Institute of Technology
--
Mike Shell
gt1...@prism.gatech.edu
Jerry Stubbs
and the book says it has platinum plugs standard, and should
last a long time. I think it's right. Airplanes use platinum
plugs for reliability. They worked in my '86 mazda 2.0 four
for over three years. I changed them because I was afraid the
threads might seize if I didn't take them out.
Silver spoon, and a paper plate. How sad.
>be...@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Up is on, Down is off.) writes:
: Yeah, they're cheap, and it shows. The plugs I used run almost $11
>: a piece, but you put them in and don't worry for 50K or so. (They
>Well there's brand loyalty for you. $11 EACH? Did you buy those from a dealer?
I've priced them at dealers and at after market shops. They all price
out the same. You'd think with as many turbo MR2s that they've sold
that they'd start marketing these suckers at a lower price, but then,
I guess the number that need them hasn't risen high enough for
anyone else to offer an after market plug. The only brands that
are designated for this engine are ND, NGK, and, supposedly, Bosch.
>Bosch regular plugs (and all other brands) come in a wide range of heat
>indexes - I, like you, think that using Pt plugs is silly when your engine
>is not designed for them. I think I would try some Bosch plugs to see
>how they went before I paid $44 for a new set of ND's though. Even in
>not-worth-much Australian dollars a new _set_ only costs $12 or so.
The Bosch plugs that Bosch recommends for this engine were roughly $2
a piece. They didn't last five months.
Ron
Troy Wecker
I tried Bosch platinum spark plugs in My '91 Chevy Suburban to see how
they worked. After 5,400 miles I started having mis-fires. I pulled
the plugs and almost every one had a metallic peak going from the tiny
center electrode to the ground electrode. I believe it reduced the
gap distance by about 25% on average. One looked like a 50%
reduction. On some plugs there wasn't enough spark (gap) to ignite
the fuel properly. I'm not sure what metal it was but it was there.
It was bonded or part of the center electrode and could be scraped
off.
I don't think these are good spark plugs. I've never seen this before
on standard plugs. Also the Bosch plugs were 3/8" shorter and broke
very easily just above the metal hex section at the ceramic. I broke
2 getting them out. I've never had that happen before either. I went
back to Autolites (non-platinum) very quickly.
troy
In article <C84E1...@r-node.hub.org> si...@r-node.hub.org (Rajendra Singh) writes:
kenneth.r.crudup
>Are there any disadvantages to installing platinum spark plugs in a car
>which didn't come with them originally (from the factory)? I know they're
>expensive, but I don't mind if it'll mean a little improved performance.
In article <VBREAULT.93...@rinhp750.gmr.com>
vbre...@rinhp750.gmr.com (Val Breault) writes:
>The people with the greatest amount of combustion research money, the
>greatest number of combustion engineers and the greatest amount of
>potential gain or loss are the people that engineered the engine in
>your car. If they have a design that works best with conventional
>plugs then use the conventional plugs. If the manufacturer engineered
>it to exploit the unique characteristics of flint on steel then use
>the flint and steel.
You've said this before, and like last time, this may be true, but I bet
that by the time the bean counters "downgrade" this and "too expensive"
that and "lower our service exposure" here and "too much for percieved
market" there, it doesn't look exactly like what the engineers started
out with, and is full of (even more) compromises that several aftermarket
vendors can improve on.
I'm not advocating plats, they're not for every engine. But, I don't fall
for the fallacy that "the way it was designed is best". Easy example-
stainless exhaust systems. They're much better than the stock steel, but
not many cars come from the factory that way.
-Kenny
--
Kenneth R. Crudup, ATT BL, 1600 Osgood St, N. Andover, MA 01845-1043
MV20-3T5B, +1 508 960 3219.
ke...@mvuts.att.com
Peter Tong
>steve
How do you know this?
Peter
Val Breault
In article <C84E1...@r-node.hub.org>
si...@r-node.hub.org (Rajendra Singh) writes:
>Are there any disadvantages to installing platinum spark plugs in a car
>which didn't come with them originally (from the factory)? I know they're
>expensive, but I don't mind if it'll mean a little improved performance.
In article <VBREAULT.93...@rinhp750.gmr.com>
vbre...@rinhp750.gmr.com (Val Breault) writes:
>The people with the greatest amount of combustion research money, the
>greatest number of combustion engineers and the greatest amount of
>potential gain or loss are the people that engineered the engine in
>your car. If they have a design that works best with conventional
>plugs then use the conventional plugs. If the manufacturer engineered
>it to exploit the unique characteristics of flint on steel then use
>the flint and steel.
You've said this before, and like last time, this may be true, but I bet
that by the time the bean counters "downgrade" this and "too expensive"
that and "lower our service exposure" here and "too much for percieved
market" there, it doesn't look exactly like what the engineers started
out with, and is full of (even more) compromises that several aftermarket
vendors can improve on.
Well, Ken, it's a yes and no kind of situation.
Yes, there are a LOT of divergent requirements, but it's the engineering
team that resolves them, not the accountants. The engineers don't work
in a vacuum and they know from the first scratch outline that they will
have to make a number of compromises along the way. They are quite aware
of the requirements and failure to anticipate their effects causes false
starts. False starts waste time and are considered to be a very bad thing.
If, during the design process, one part is chosen for it's low cost, the
rest of the design that is affected by that choice will be reexamined.
Remember, these are folks that think of the individulal components as
parts of a whole. They look at the engine as a system composed of
numerous subsystems. The engine itself is but one system in the set of
systems called an automobile.
I can't go into much detail here, but let's take changing the spark plugs
for example. If a person were to substitute a spark plug that started
the burn earlier or more agressively then he'd raise his peak pressure,
but at the expense of lower mechanical advantage and greater tendency
toward spark knock. He, or his engine management computer, would have
to retard the timing to kill the knocking and possibly (though not by
measurement) bring the location of peak pressure back to where it produces
the greatest mechanical advantage. This would lower the PP that he sought
to gain. So what happened? He has a more aggresive flame front, but has
had to retard the timing to bring the LPP back in line, losing the PP gain.
Net gain... about zero. However he can drive away happy in the belief that
his "Super Flame-Thrower / Split Corona / Torquemaster plugs" have gained
him the respect and admiration of all his less wealthy friends.
I'm not advocating plats, they're not for every engine. But, I don't fall
for the fallacy that "the way it was designed is best". Easy example-
stainless exhaust systems. They're much better than the stock steel, but
not many cars come from the factory that way.
Our lawmakers, God bless 'em, have passed a law that requires that cars
sold in the United States be designed to meet the emissions specifications
for 50,000 miles. Moreover, the manufacturers are obliged to bring their
non-compliant products back into compliance. The mild steel systems often
fail within that 50,000 mile period. Some manufacturers chose to install
the more expensive stainless steel systems, some chose to use the less
expensive mild steel, figuring the warranty cost would be less than the
cost of the stainless. If you have a vehicle with mild steel exhaust
and it fails within that 50,000 mile period then the mild steel may be
the best deal of all for you. You didn't have to pay the higher cost
of stainless and you get a new exhaust system for "free" (disregarding
hidden costs of warranty support).
But you already know that stuff Ken. I guess it's just too early
on a Monday morning.
-Kenny