Re: 'list' of standard times for repair

[Gene]

"Evan Platt" <ev...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:4come8l32sfapj9sr...@4ax.com...
> Hi,
>
> Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
> vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
> look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
> strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
> know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
> of 'standard'?
>
> My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>
> 2004 Hyundai Sonata.
>
> Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job") and
> $224 labor to install front strus.

You can try this site, but there is a fee involved for accessing
that information. http://www.alldatadiy.com I don't know
of anywhere online that provides free, flat rate manual times,
although simply requesting that info from an independent shop
or Hyundai dealer (where the allowable times will be less) might
(and likely would) prove successfull.

[Tegger]

Evan Platt <ev...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote in news:4come8l32sfapj9sr...@4ax.com:

> Hi,
>
> Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
> vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
> look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
> strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
> know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
> of 'standard'?

There is. It's called the "flat rate".

<http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&pq=auto%20repair%20flat%20rate%20&cp=27&gs_id=20u&xhr=t&q=auto+repair+flat+rate+book&pf=p&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&oq=auto+repair+flat+rate++book&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.aWc&fp=8389ae1529bdf0dc&bpcl=40096503&biw=2560&bih=1269>

>
> My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>
> 2004 Hyundai Sonata.

Is this a V6?

>
> Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job")

If this is a V6, that might be reasonable. The rear bank is often
a major headache, sometimes involving a lot of disassembly.

> and
> $224 labor to install front strus.
>

Sounds like about 2 hours, or about an hour a side. Also within reason.

More importantly, what was the shop rate you were charged?


--
Tegger

[Scott Dorsey]

Evan Platt <ev...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
>vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
>look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
>strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
>know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
>of 'standard'?

Chilton's has one. Your local mechanic's shop or dealer will have one.

For the most part, it bears very little connection with the actual time
to do a repair, especially if diagnosis is required, but dealers and
insurance companies use it for pricing anyway.

>My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>
>2004 Hyundai Sonata.
>

>Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job") and

>$224 labor to install front strus.

I can believe those, given the amount of crap that has to be removed in
order to get to some of that stuff. I don't know the Sonata but some of
the Elantra models require taking the radiator out to get to the plugs.
It's horrible. I won't work on those things.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul in Houston TX]

Evan Platt wrote:
> Hi,

>
> Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
> vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
> look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
> strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
> know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
> of 'standard'?
>

> My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>
> 2004 Hyundai Sonata.
>
> Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job") and
> $224 labor to install front strus.
>

> Thanks.

There are "flat rates" for every job and every vehicle.
Call around and ask what yours would be.

[Gene]

"Scott Dorsey" <klu...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:kcfsvu$s3o$1...@panix2.panix.com...

> Evan Platt <ev...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
>>vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
>>look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
>>strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
>>know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
>>of 'standard'?
>
> Chilton's has one. Your local mechanic's shop or dealer will have one.
>
> For the most part, it bears very little connection with the actual time
> to do a repair,

The implication apparently being that the listed times are not
reflective of the actual time required, which isn't necessarily
true. Time motion studies are performed to establish those
times, although a knowledgeable, well equipped experienced
mechanic, especially those having executed the procedure
before (and the reason why dealer time is reduced), can and
frequently does beat book time, sometimes by developing
shortcuts. However, the amateur or occasional backyard
mechanic is very unlikely and has little chance of coming
close to meeting those times.

> especially if diagnosis is required,

Competent diagnosis is taken into account for establishing times.

> but dealers and
> insurance companies use it for pricing anyway.

Not always. As an example, R&R for parts needing to be
replaced (due to collision, fire, weathering ...) don't necessarily
experience similar or uniform damage, in which case actual
time, in lieu of flat rate, can and is sometimes used instead.

>>My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>>
>>2004 Hyundai Sonata.
>>
>>Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job") and
>>$224 labor to install front strus.
>
> I can believe those, given the amount of crap that has to be removed in
> order to get to some of that stuff. I don't know the Sonata but some of
> the Elantra models require taking the radiator out to get to the plugs.
> It's horrible. I won't work on those things.
> --scott

Which speaks volumes about a pro's abilities and ethics
if he would otherwise engage in those types of repairs.
There's no telling what else (s)he might choose to skip
when encountering something difficult or unexpected.

[Gene]

"Paul in Houston TX" <Pa...@Houston.com> wrote in message
news:kcg0qm$6mi$1...@dont-email.me...

No, there is not.

> Call around and ask what yours would be.

You too make for a good parrott.

[jim beam]

yes there is. look in any local paper at the shop ads.

>
>> Call around and ask what yours would be.
>
> You too make for a good parrott.

you're having emotional problems.


--
fact check required

[Paul in Houston TX]

You are incorrect unless you mean a non standard
"customer pay" operation, such as electrical
system diagnosis and repair.
The book times are originally set by the manufacturer.
I used to be paid by book rate.
We all tried to beat the book.
Work 8 hours and get paid 12.
Sorry, I don't get into name calling.

[Gene]

"Paul in Houston TX" <Pa...@Houston.com> wrote in message

news:kcg3to$kql$1...@dont-email.me...

> Gene wrote:
>> "Paul in Houston TX" <Pa...@Houston.com> wrote in message
>> news:kcg0qm$6mi$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> Evan Platt wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
>>>> vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
>>>> look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
>>>> strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
>>>> know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
>>>> of 'standard'?
>>>>
>>>> My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>>>>
>>>> 2004 Hyundai Sonata. Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark
>>>> plugs ("4 hour job") and
>>>> $224 labor to install front strus.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>> There are "flat rates" for every job and every vehicle.
>>
>> No, there is not.
>>
>>> Call around and ask what yours would be.
>>
>> You too make for a good parrott.
>
> You are incorrect unless you mean a non standard
> "customer pay" operation, such as electrical
> system diagnosis and repair.

E pluribus unum. But there are multiple procedures for
which there are no flat rate times established, customized
work being another, see my earlier post on this point.

> The book times are originally set by the manufacturer.
> I used to be paid by book rate.

As did I, so I'd think that you'd be aware that allowed
times varied dependent upon who was performing the
work, at least during the decades in which I toiled.

> We all tried to beat the book.
> Work 8 hours and get paid 12.

Another point already broached yet seemingly ignored.

> Sorry, I don't get into name calling.

Nor do you so much as attempt to address the salient,
inescapable point. In legalese, your response would be
referenced as "asked and answered". But if the mukluks fit ...

[jim beam]

no, it's caveat emptor.

> But there are multiple procedures for
> which there are no flat rate times established, customized
> work being another, see my earlier post on this point.

your "point" was that there were no flat rates. now you're
contradicting yourself by admitting that all the procedures that are not
electrical or "customized" /are/ flat rate.

>
>> The book times are originally set by the manufacturer.
>> I used to be paid by book rate.
>
> As did I, so I'd think that you'd be aware that allowed
> times varied dependent upon who was performing the
> work, at least during the decades in which I toiled.

so you never did explain - how are we to believe that you're an
"engineering graduate" with "decades" of experience, and yet you're also
a tech with decades of experience. assuming you're not methuselah,
you're clearly not both, so which one are you? i don't believe you got
an engineering degree just so you could work as a tech.

>
>> We all tried to beat the book.
>> Work 8 hours and get paid 12.
>
> Another point already broached yet seemingly ignored.

um, maybe it's because you're not making any sense? [see above.]

>
>> Sorry, I don't get into name calling.
>
> Nor do you so much as attempt to address the salient,
> inescapable point. In legalese, your response would be
> referenced as "asked and answered". But if the mukluks fit ...

clearly you're not following the thread - there are multiple authors to
whom you're responding as one and the same. either you need to learn to
use a proper threaded news reader and pay attention to individual
authors, or stop wasting everybody's time.


--
fact check required

[wws]

On Monday, January 7, 2013 6:03:52 PM UTC-6, Evan Platt wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
>
> vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
>
> look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
>
> strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
>
> know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
>
> of 'standard'?
>
>
>
> My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>
>
>
> 2004 Hyundai Sonata.
>
>
>
> Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job") and
>
> $224 labor to install front strus.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>

> --
>
> To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious and .invalid from my e-mail address.

Check it out: http://www.automd.com/

[m6onz5a]

On Jan 7, 7:03 pm, Evan Platt

<e...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
> vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
> look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
> strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
> know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
> of 'standard'?
>
> My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>
> 2004 Hyundai Sonata.
>
> Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job") and
> $224 labor to install front strus.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious and .invalid from my e-mail address.

I have a site to look up labor rates and it states about 3.2 hours to
replace the plugs, and 1.2 hours for each strut.

Sounds like they charge around $100 hr. which is the norm in my area.

[AD]

On Jan 8, 6:57 am, Evan Platt
<e...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2013 00:47:19 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inva...@example.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Is this a V6?
>
> Yep.

>
>
>
> >> Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job")
>
> >If this is a V6, that might be reasonable. The rear bank is often
> >a major headache, sometimes involving a lot of disassembly.
>

> Really? 4 hours? Wow.

>
>
>
> >> and
> >> $224 labor to install front strus.
>
> >Sounds like about 2 hours, or about an hour a side. Also within reason.
>
> >More importantly, what was the shop rate you were charged?
>

> Spark Plugs: $86
> Install Spark Plugs $375
> Front Struts: $173.50 (each)
> Install front struts: $224.00 (total)
> Struts installed: $570.
>
> What tipped me off is the stereo shop next door (who I've been going
> to for years) overheard the staff bragging about how they saw me
> coming.. Then I researched - I had had my rear struts replaced not 5
> months ago, and found my quote and invoice:
> $102.00 per strut. $120 labor (per 2 struts).
> Previous invoice for strut replacement was $341.82.
> I can understand struts going up a tad in price. But labor - doubling?
>
> I wrote corporate, we'll see what happens.

let me semi-guess: hyundai dealer service dept?
if so welcome to the club: my brother was ripped off by sales
(financing terms) and
service (waiting for the vehicle exiting the warranty terms before
doing
a $2k service for engine intermittent service light).

my brother is not a parts department kind of guy but I suspect it
would've been
full circle then.

in modern times u don't have to be a woman to get ripped off by an
automotive
industry, you just have to unreasonably uncare about automotive stuff

it's a gender neutral screw opportunity times

good luck with your complaint to the hq

[Tegger]

Evan Platt <ev...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote in

news:f06ne8p8jhsog688b...@4ax.com:

> Then I researched - I had had my rear struts replaced not 5
> months ago, and found my quote and invoice:
> $102.00 per strut. $120 labor (per 2 struts).
> Previous invoice for strut replacement was $341.82.
> I can understand struts going up a tad in price. But labor - doubling?

Rear struts are often easier and faster to do than front ones, since the
rear doesn't steer.

From the invoice prices, it sounds like they charged you about 1-hour for
the rears and about 2-hours for the fronts. That doesn't sound bad to me.

What was their SHOP RATE? That's the PER-HOUR charge for labor. There's
often a sign in the shop that gives their shop rate, and it sometimes
appears on the invoice. Or you can phone and ask. It will be somewhere
between $75 and $150 per hour. This shop looks to me as though it's
charging about $120/hr.



--
Tegger

[gpsman]

On Jan 8, 8:32 am, Evan Platt
<e...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Jan 2013 04:10:17 -0800 (PST), AD <isq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >let me semi-guess: hyundai dealer service dept?
>

> No, local Goodyear.

Try calling your local Hyundai dealer for a ballpark figure, as a
potential customer, not a complainant. You just want an idea of what
it will cost.

I think I recall it was '80s 6 cylinder Cavaliers that required
disconnecting a motor mount and jacking up the engine to get to the
rear bank of plugs.
-----

- gpsman

[Tegger]

Paul in Houston TX <Pa...@Houston.com> wrote in news:kcg0qm$6mi$1@dont-
email.me:

>
> There are "flat rates" for every job and every vehicle.
> Call around and ask what yours would be.

That's the flat NUMBER OF HOURS. The difference comes in the SHOP RATE,
which is the garage's per-hour labor rate.

If a job has a flat rate of 1.7 hours, and a shop charges $150 per hour,
you'll get invoiced $255. If another shop charges $100 per hour, you'll get
charged $170.

The mechanic I used for many, many years once had a customer who insisted
on being billed for actual hours worked, rather than the flat rate.
Sometimes that customer ended up paying MORE than the flat rate. Flat rate
does not take into account unexpected problems a technician may encounter,
such as a fastener that is badly rusted in place, or previous repairs that
were badly done and in need of correction.

Generally speaking, a tech will try and come in under the flat rate time
with as many jobs as possible. This helps pay for the jobs that end up
taking longer than expected.


--
Tegger

[Tegger]

"Gene" <gene....@home.com> wrote in
news:kcg5me$jrs$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

>
> E pluribus unum.



Which translates to, "Out of many, one"...

Are you actually trying to say, "Caveat emptor"?



--
Tegger

[jim beam]

On 01/08/2013 05:17 AM, Tegger wrote:
> Evan Platt<ev...@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> wrote in
> news:f06ne8p8jhsog688b...@4ax.com:
>
>> Then I researched - I had had my rear struts replaced not 5
>> months ago, and found my quote and invoice:
>> $102.00 per strut. $120 labor (per 2 struts).
>> Previous invoice for strut replacement was $341.82.
>> I can understand struts going up a tad in price. But labor - doubling?
>
>
>
> Rear struts are often easier and faster to do than front ones, since the
> rear doesn't steer.

for something like a solid rear with leaf springs, but not otherwise.

and the rear steers on many cars - your integra for example. that's
what the "compensator arm" at the front of the main trailer does. lots
of modern multi-link rear suspensions have similar functions.

>
> From the invoice prices, it sounds like they charged you about 1-hour for
> the rears and about 2-hours for the fronts. That doesn't sound bad to me.
>
> What was their SHOP RATE? That's the PER-HOUR charge for labor. There's
> often a sign in the shop that gives their shop rate, and it sometimes
> appears on the invoice. Or you can phone and ask. It will be somewhere
> between $75 and $150 per hour. This shop looks to me as though it's
> charging about $120/hr.
>
>
>


--

fact check required

[Gene]

"wws" <wsti...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4887a3c3-ddc0-49c0...@googlegroups.com...

> On Monday, January 7, 2013 6:03:52 PM UTC-6, Evan Platt wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Not sure how to explain this, but looking for some sort of standard -
>>
>> vehicle specific obviously, of service times. I want to be able to
>>
>> look up say replace struts, and see that it should take 1 hour per
>>
>> strut, or change spark plugs and see that it should take 1.5 hours. I
>>
>> know in reality everyone is different, but certainly there's some sort
>>
>> of 'standard'?
>>
>> My basis for this is I feel I was ripped off at a mechanic.
>>
>> 2004 Hyundai Sonata.
>>
>> Main complaint is $375 labor to replace spark plugs ("4 hour job") and
>>
>> $224 labor to install front strus.
>>
>> Thanks.
>

> Check it out: http://www.automd.com/

That site has value for estimating parts and labor costs for only
some repairs, it is ridiculously far off and worthlessly misleading
on many others. Perhaps it's a work in progress and will improve.

[Gene]

"Tegger" <inv...@example.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA1425920...@208.90.168.18...

> "Gene" <gene....@home.com> wrote in
> news:kcg5me$jrs$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
>
>> E pluribus unum.
>
> Which translates to, "Out of many, one"...

Or - "Of many, one."

> Are you actually trying to say, "Caveat emptor"?

Hardly.

He wrote:
" You are incorrect unless you mean a non standard
"customer pay" operation, such as electrical system
diagnosis and repair. "

My response:
"E pluribus unum" meant that his electrically based reply
was only 'one of many' examples that fit the category of
procedures not necessarily accounted for by flat rate times.

Why is and how could something so easily understandable,
particularly in context, be so difficult for some of you?!

[Steve W.]

Evan Platt wrote:
>
> Spark Plugs: $86
> Install Spark Plugs $375
> Front Struts: $173.50 (each)
> Install front struts: $224.00 (total)
> Struts installed: $570.
>
> What tipped me off is the stereo shop next door (who I've been going
> to for years) overheard the staff bragging about how they saw me

> coming.. Then I researched - I had had my rear struts replaced not 5

> months ago, and found my quote and invoice:
> $102.00 per strut. $120 labor (per 2 struts).
> Previous invoice for strut replacement was $341.82.
> I can understand struts going up a tad in price. But labor - doubling?
>

> I wrote corporate, we'll see what happens.

Book times for a 2004 Sonata with the V-6

Plugs - 3.2 hours. (reason is that you basically have to pull the intake
system off to get to the rear plugs, same with many newer engines)
Front struts - 1.2 hours each side. (includes toe adjustment)

On the rear struts the time for BOTH is the same as the time for ONE
front strut. 1.2 hours.
So the labor would be doubled.

--
Steve W.

[Steve W.]

Same here. Hours I posted match up as well.

--
Steve W.

[Vic Smith]

I know with late '80's A-bodys (Celebrity, Century, Ciera, etc.) you
could disconnect the dog bone from the rad frame and roll the engine
forward a bit to get at the rear bank. One minute, but I didn't
bother after doing it once because it didn't even buy the minute back.
You just needed the right wrenches and patience.
I had an '85 Cav 2.0 4-cyl. Had to disconnect the motor mount and
jack the engine up a bit to get at one water pump bolt.
Always thought the 6 was too big for the Cav engine bay. Looked real
tight. Corsica engine bay seemed to be a little bigger.

[Tegger]

"Gene" <gene....@home.com> wrote in news:kcheah$k0n$1...@speranza.aioe.org:

>
> My response:
> "E pluribus unum" meant that his electrically based reply
> was only 'one of many' examples

But "one of many" is not how the Latin translates.

You're trying to say, "just one part out of many parts", while the Latin
translates as "a whole made up of many parts", which is completely
different.




--
Tegger

[Paul in Houston TX]

Tegger wrote:
> Paul in Houston TX <Pa...@Houston.com> wrote in news:kcg0qm$6mi$1@dont-
> email.me:
>
>
>> There are "flat rates" for every job and every vehicle.
>> Call around and ask what yours would be.
>
>
> That's the flat NUMBER OF HOURS. The difference comes in the SHOP RATE,
> which is the garage's per-hour labor rate.

Good catch. I was thinking book hours and wrote "flat rate".
I did not even notice that until you mentioned it.
No wonder I confused everyone.

[Gene]

"Tegger" <inv...@example.com> wrote in message

news:XnsA142C168...@208.90.168.18...

Imagine my amusement in being "corrected" by a grease monkey
cum linguist who was initially so thoroughly flummoxed by the
obvious implication of a perfectly appropriately applied latin phrase,
which, when spoonfed to him, then believed could only have but
the singular meaning given it by a nation as its motto (Hint: Quo
Vadis isn't solely the name of a movie). Kindly allow me to express
my deepest appreciation and heartfelt thanx to you, Dr. Chomsky
for, at long last, showing me the error in my ways and approach.

You can't teach what you don't know, you can't lead where you
won't go.

[AMuzi]

Tegger had it.

Unum is the nominative-case subject ( implicit verb).
Pluribus is part of a prepositional phrase hence the
ablative word ending.
From many, [it is] one.




--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Gene]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:kck680$nv3$1...@dont-email.me...

Moe makes the motion, Curley, the bicycle thief,
seconds it. Please stop, I can't catch my breath.

[jim beam]

disingenuous idiot.


--
fact check required

[Gene]

"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:kcl842$b9a$2...@dont-email.me...

>>>> Imagine my amusement in being "corrected" by a grease monkey
>>>> cum linguist who was initially so thoroughly flummoxed by the
>>>> obvious implication of a perfectly appropriately applied latin phrase,
>>>> which, when spoonfed to him, then believed could only have but
>>>> the singular meaning given it by a nation as its motto (Hint: Quo
>>>> Vadis isn't solely the name of a movie). Kindly allow me to express
>>>> my deepest appreciation and heartfelt thanx to you, Dr. Chomsky
>>>> for, at long last, showing me the error in my ways and approach.
>
>>>> You can't teach what you don't know, you can't lead where you
>>>> won't go.
>
>>> Tegger had it.
>>>
>>> Unum is the nominative-case subject ( implicit verb).
>>> Pluribus is part of a prepositional phrase hence the ablative word
>>> ending.
>>> From many, [it is] one.
>>
>> Moe makes the motion, Curley, the bicycle thief,
>> seconds it. Please stop, I can't catch my breath.
>
>

> --
> jim beam - disingenuous idiot.

Goes without saying, although I couldn't agree more.