Oil Filters / Cheap vs. Expensive
Andrew Gerber
is an '83 Stanza, the other an '89 240SX. They both happen to use the
same oil filter, which is convenient.
Anyway, I use the $2 Fram auto filters I buy at the discount store. I
got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
I change my oil and filter about every 3500 miles. Since I change the
filter so often, I figure it doesn't matter if I buy the expensive
ones. I use Castrol GTX oil, as the Stanza was having overheating
problems for a while and Castrol holds up to temperature extremes much
better than cheaper oil.
Any thoughts out there?
Thanks,
--
/ Andrew S. Gerber / Solbourne Computer, Inc /
/ ger...@solbourne.com / ...!{uunet,sun,boulder}!stan!gerber /
/ "Stress is best shared with someone you love" /
Val Breault
...some stuff deleted...
>
> Anyway, I use the $2 Fram auto filters I buy at the discount store. I
> got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
> Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
>
A long time ago (mid-late 60's) while working as a mechanic I bought a
"bargain" oil filter for the purpose of cutting it open and looking for
the differences. This was a "Red Dot" filter. It looked just like an
expensive AC filter, and came in the familiar blue and red box, but no
letters (AC) were in the dot on the filter or the box. The fellow
that was hawking them said they were made by AC, but were "seconds" and,
therefore, not up to ACs high standards. They were, he said, perfectly
good filters, just not up to their high standard.
Well...
out came the hacksaw,
off came the end
and onto the floor fell .......
USED SHOP RAGS!!! .....
The filter was merely an oil filter shell stuffed with rags and painted to
look similar to a name brand.
This is not an urban legend. I'm sure it does NOT apply to the discussion of
the merits of Fram versus Nissan filters, but it applies to the discussion
of really-low-cost automotive components. Know your supplier (and his).
(We did, however get good service out of some MotoCraft ignition parts...
but that's a different story.)
>
>
> --
> / Andrew S. Gerber / Solbourne Computer, Inc /
> / ger...@solbourne.com / ...!{uunet,sun,boulder}!stan!gerber /
> / "Stress is best shared with someone you love" /
--
Val Breault - vbre...@gmr.com
The opinions expressed by the author do not necessarily reflect
the position of the General Motors Corporation.
Kevin Kreutzweiser
>Anyway, I use the $2 Fram auto filters I buy at the discount store. I
>got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
>Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
A Consumer magazine tested oil filters a few years ago, and they found that
in almost all cases, Fram Filters were superior to the ones supplied from
auto manufacturers.
Kevin
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John G. DeArmond
>Anyway, I use the $2 Fram auto filters I buy at the discount store. I
>got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
>Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
From the dealer perspective, the Fram filter is crap simply because he
did not get to sell you the $5 one. Nissan has long been famous for
that stunt. Indeed on a Maxima station wagon my mom had a few years
ago (detuned Z engine), they had cast an extra boss into the filter
mounting surface so that standard Ford-type filters would not fit.
A bit of work with a hand grinder solved that problem.
If it matters, my day-to-day Z has 280,000 miles on it and has eaten
exclusively Fram filters and Kendall oil. This is true for my
other 2 Zs that have 150,000 and 110,000 miles respectively. I have
used the same combination on customer cars for the last 15 years
with the same result.
Of course, if you happened to feel sorry for your dealer, you COULD
give him a little welfare and buy his filters....
John
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akmo...@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
>got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
>Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
If you read the box of Fram (or any other major brand), you will see
the line 'Meets and exceeds all manufacturer's requirements and
something about using it will not void your warranty'. The only crap
about Fram is that you're not buying them at the inflated price that
you dealers charge. I've always used Frams in my Nissans ;-)
>
>I change my oil and filter about every 3500 miles. Since I change the
>filter so often, I figure it doesn't matter if I buy the expensive
>ones. I use Castrol GTX oil, as the Stanza was having overheating
>problems for a while and Castrol holds up to temperature extremes much
>better than cheaper oil.
If your car is overheating, using better oil will not help. Better fix
the problem before your (cylinder) head warps and your engine seizes.
Also, most major brands of oil also have that 'meet or exceed... on the
package and the API(sp) ratings.
AKM
h philip chen
>I have two Nissan cars, and I change the oil on both cars myself. One
>is an '83 Stanza, the other an '89 240SX. They both happen to use the
>same oil filter, which is convenient.
>
>Anyway, I use the $2 Fram auto filters I buy at the discount store. I
>got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
>Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
Check your local dealer to see if they'll give you a discount if you
buy two or more filters per visit. Here at Turner Nissan in Sacramento,
it's $5.89 a piece, but when I buy 2, I'll only have to pay $3.89 each
-- that's the dealer's unadvertised everyday sale price.
About the filters... I had an Accord LX some years ago and I was in an
independent Honda-Acura-Sterling garage here when I saw a few filters on
display (about 4 or 5 filters). They were for the same car (Accord) and
each of those filters were cut open and placed side-by-side for comparison.
On the outside, they were identical in shape/size, but on the inside, the
filter/paper area was over twice larger in the OEM-Honda filter than each
of the other filters, including Fram, Purolator, et.al. In addition, the
material (metal) used in the Honda filter is thicker too. Anyway, use
the above info in whichever way you prefer -- don't bother to flame me -
I don't make filters:-) I only buy them, and that's what I saw. Also keep
in mind the ones that I saw are for Hondas only -- might vary from car to
car, etc.
-philip ch...@athena.ecs.csus.edu
Martin Soques
>>Anyway, I use the $2 Fram auto filters I buy at the discount store. I
>>got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
>>Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
>
>If you read the box of Fram (or any other major brand), you will see
>the line 'Meets and exceeds all manufacturer's requirements and
>something about using it will not void your warranty'. The only crap
>about Fram is that you're not buying them at the inflated price that
>you dealers charge. I've always used Frams in my Nissans ;-)
>
I've always used Frams in my Nissan truck and the 81 Datsun 310 I used to
own. Curious oil filter note on the 310: around '82 or so while browsing
the do-it-yourself rack in the dealer's parts dept, I noticed that the Nissan
replacement filter for the 310 was *shortened* by about 30% compared to the
Frams I had been using. Never did get an explanation for this. Fortunately,
the original size Frams continued to be available till I sold the 'ol car
at 120K miles.
Marty
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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P. O. Box 17341 | E-mail: mso...@mozart.AMD.COM
Austin, TX 78760 | phone: (512) 440-1694
Joshua_Putnam
>Anyway, I use the $2 Fram auto filters I buy at the discount store. I
>got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
>Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
According to Consumer Reports testing, Fram filters are significantly better
than other brands, including OEM filters. If I remember the (several year
old) test results correctly, Fram filters trapped more gunk per pass and also
could hold more gunk total before clogging. One concern with the cheaper
discount filters (no-name brands and lookalikes) is degredation of the filter
material -- some of them will eventually slough off pulp, clogging your oil
lines. Go for Fram.
--
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Gregor Harrison
>In article <1991Jun25.1...@solbourne.com> ger...@solbourne.com (Andrew Gerber) writes:
>>Anyway, I use the $2 Fram auto filters I buy at the discount store. I
>>got a lecture from a dealer service guy once how I should use the $5
>>Nissan brand filters, as the Fram filters were "crap".
>A Consumer magazine tested oil filters a few years ago, and they found that
>in almost all cases, Fram Filters were superior to the ones supplied from
>auto manufacturers.
I once had to look at five or seven different auto stores for an air
filter for my wife's Toyota. (88 Corolla SR5) The filter looked sorta
like a waffle, kinda. I was just about to give up and go pay $$$ for a
"real" Toyota filter at the dealer, when I found a Fram filter of the
correct flavor (maple 8-). After buying the filter and getting it home,
I noticed that the name molded into the filter plastic was not Fram, but
was Toyota! It was identical to the original filter I was replacing. I
later found a slip of paper in the box which stated something to the
effect that Fram had inspected the filter and found it to be up to their
standards. The only question I have for Fram is: Why Bother?
Gregor
--
I wanted to get a foreign car to replace my Mustang, so I bought a Navajo.8-)
gre...@nwnexus.wa.com ...!uunet!nwnexus!gregor
Dennis Gibbs
> ......
>
> I've always used Frams in my Nissan truck and the 81 Datsun 310 I used to
> own. Curious oil filter note on the 310: around '82 or so while browsing
> the do-it-yourself rack in the dealer's parts dept, I noticed that the Nissan
> replacement filter for the 310 was *shortened* by about 30% compared to the
> Frams I had been using. Never did get an explanation for this. Fortunately,
> the original size Frams continued to be available till I sold the 'ol car
> at 120K miles.
>
> Marty
> P. O. Box 17341 | E-mail: mso...@mozart.AMD.COM
> Austin, TX 78760 | phone: (512) 440-1694
Marty brings up an interesting point and one I would like to clarify for
those of you who do their own oil changes. I currently own (and have owned
since new) a 1979 Datsun 310. Back then, I used different brands of oil
filters, depending on whatever was carried by the parts store I happened to
be visiting when I needed an oil filter. I used either Frams, the OEM Nissan
filter, or Purolaters. As Marty states above, around 1982 the
filter size for the 310 was shortened by close to two inches in size. The
original Fram filter for this car, PH-2870A, was the filter originally
recommended and was the longer one. When I noticed that Nissan started
giving me shorter filters, I went back and checked the Fram applications
catalog as well. Sure enough, Fram no longer recommended PH-2870A for the
310, it was changed to a PH-46. Yes, the PH-46 is the same size as the
new OEM Nissan filter.
Moral of this story: Very often a manufacturer will change their
recommendations for oil filters after the car is a couple of years old.
If you only look *once* in the parts catalog and then always buy that
number filter, you might miss out if a change in recommendation has been
made. What I do to avoid this problem is to check the catalog for the
proper filter each time a new catalog comes out (for Fram, I think they
come out with a new catalog once a year). This way, if they have indeed
changed their recommendations, you'll catch it and be able to change your
choice of filter model accordingly. Also, I'm pretty sure these "changes"
in recommendations are done by the manufacturer of the car, and not the
makers of the filter....Since the reputable filter makers want to meet or
exceed OEM warranty requirements, they have no choice but to change their
recommendations to coincide the manufacturer's recommendations.
This also happened on another car of mine that I no longer own, it was a
1975 Buick Apollo with the 231 V6 engine. The old Fram number used to
be PH-25. Upon checking the catalog one year, they started recommending
a different model filter, and I wrote Fram to ask why. They wrote back
explaining that it was discovered that during a minor fendor-bender accident,
it was possible that the old filter could have been hit by some part of the
bumper support structure when the bumper was retracting. By making the filter
smaller the new smaller filter would have been missed by the retracting bumper.
So again, check your applications catalog periodically for changed
recommendations......
Incidentally, I use Fram filters exclusively now, and am very happy with
them. Whenever a car dealer starts giving me grief about not using their
filter, I just ask them to provide evidence of studies which compare their
OEM filter with the Fram filters. If they can provide convincing objective
evidence stating that the OEM filter is better, then this might be enough
to get me to switch. So far, not one OEM mechanic has been able to take me
up on this challenge.
Dennis Gibbs
...uunet!tfsg!dennis
--
--------------
Dennis Gibbs, TRW Systems Integration Group, Chantilly, VA
(703) 802-1961
...uunet!tfsg!dennis
Bob Paasch
All this talk about oil filters leads me to mention Baldwin filters.
Never heard of them you say? Thats because they do zero advertising.
They are more geared toward supplying filters to the heavy-duty
market (construction and farm equipment, trucking industry) but they
do make filters for nearly every automotive application too. I
used to use them on my Ferrari 308 (finding an auto parts store that
carried that size Fram was nearly impossible) and currently use them
on my Ford 6.9 diesel and my vw.
Made in Nebraska. A Baldwin cut-away makes a Fram look sick.
You can't find them in an auto parts store. Look in the Yellow
Pages under Filter-Liquid for a Filter distributor. The prices
are generally very competitive with Fram.
crm...@nobbs.physics.ucsb.edu
Fram in quality of materials, but they cost more. Above all, avoid
store-brand filters! I have had serious problems with oil starvation
(nasty noises when starting) when using K-mart filters. Switching
brands of filters solved the problem...
+-----------------------------------+
| Charles R. Meyer |
| |
| Internet: crm...@voodoo.ucsb.edu |
| Bitnet: crmeyer@voodoo |
| HEPnet: voodoo::crmeyer |
+-----------------------------------+
Vikas Sontakke
>Incidentally, I use Fram filters exclusively now, and am very happy with
>them. Whenever a car dealer starts giving me grief about not using their
>filter, I just ask them to provide evidence of studies which compare their
>OEM filter with the Fram filters. If they can provide convincing objective
>evidence stating that the OEM filter is better, then this might be enough
>to get me to switch. So far, not one OEM mechanic has been able to take me
>up on this challenge.
I have seen cutout section of both Honda and Fram filters at the dealer.
If you see them side by side it is very obvious that the Honda is made of
better quality material.
However, personally, I still use Fram. Few years ago, when I switched to Fram,
Honda was using old style (Blue) filters. At least at that time, the Honda
filter used to take longer to build up the oil pressure. Since then I have been
using Fram.
Lately the mechanic at the dealer suggested that I should go back to Honda
(newer black filters) as that will quieten the valve clatter during the cold
starts. I might try that at next oil change.
For my Ford SHO, I am using Ford Motorcraft. At least from the outside, the
Motorcraft looks little better built and is tad heavier. But the reason I am
staying with Motorcraft is that I can buy them at reasonable price at many
discount chain stores even though they are more expensive than Fram on sale.
Vikas Sontakke Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard MA.
Internet: sont...@helix.enet.dec.com
uucp: {decvax,ucbvax,allegra}!decwrl!helix.enet!sontakke
sontakke%helix...@decwrl.dec.com
h philip chen
>> > Frams I had been using. Never did get an explanation for this.
>> filter, or Purolaters. As Marty states above, around 1982 the
>> filter size for the 310 was shortened by close to two inches in size.
>
>surface area is available to filter the oil. So would it make sense to
>keep using the larger filter?
Good question. Hmmm, a larger filter (physical size) may not necessary
mean there is a larger filter area (inside that filter), as compared to
a smaller filter (newer design, in the above case).
Anyway, I posted an article about the filter-area-size a few days ago
regarding the differences between the OEM-Honda filter and the
aftermarket-versions for the same car. In the cut-away displays that I
saw, the filter area (inside) for the OEM filter was about twice larger
(my conservative estimate) than the aftermarket ones, even though they
were all the same size on the outside. (Decide for yourself which is
better -- I don't have any further comments about that. :-))
For your query, I can safely say it's possible to reduce the physical
size of the filter (eg. by 30%) and yet maintain the same filter area
(paper) inside the case -- eg. by using more folds, or just keeping the
same filter element inside (ie. same inside but smaller outside) -- if
you've seen a cut-away of a filter, you'll probably know there's lots of
empty space inside a filter -- there may be enough clearance inside the
filter to use the previously designed filter-element/paper/area.
As for why the filter was reduced in size, we just have to trust the
vehicle manufacturer -- they ought to know what they're doing (half :-)).
Anyway, if they decided to reduce the size of the filter element (inside),
I'm sure they had thought about it twice. (Hope they really did.)
Well, if they updated the filter design, then go for it (well, we're not
talking 'bout computer operating systems here :-) It's unlikely we'll
upgrade to something worse when it comes to an OEM oil filter :-)
But who knows... your filter may vary...
Well, just my 2 cents...
Cheers,
-philip ch...@athena.ecs.csus.edu
#include <type-N.fire.extinguisher> :-)
luis basto
> In article <1991Jun26....@dvorak.amd.com>, mso...@mozart.amd.com (Martin Soques) writes:
> > ......
> >
> > Frams I had been using. Never did get an explanation for this.
> filter, or Purolaters. As Marty states above, around 1982 the
> filter size for the 310 was shortened by close to two inches in size.
On a slight tangent, it appears that the larger the filter, the more
surface area is available to filter the oil. So would it make sense to
keep using the larger filter?
--
Luis Basto
E-mail: ...!cs.utexas.edu!mavrick!luis
ba...@cactus.org
sy...@tdw245.ed.ray.com
recommends ]
Consumer Reports (not everyone's favorite car mag) did a report on oil
filters several years ago. Their conclusion: Fram oil filters were
dramatically better than anything else on the market. At the bottom of
the list were filters from specific dealers. They basically said "It
makes no sense to buy any other kind." They're also cheap, and often on
sale where I shop. Tell your dealer to stuff it, and you might also think
about finding another place to bring your car (if he's lying about this, to
get you to spend more money at his place, what else can you believe?).
The general consensus on oil is Castrol, I'd say.
Doug Leno
>Consumer Reports (not everyone's favorite car mag) did a report on oil
>filters several years ago. Their conclusion: Fram oil filters were
>dramatically better than anything else on the market.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(emphasis mine)
I haven't read the article, but this is a very strong statement
indeed. Did the mag in fact test *every* filter found in the entire
(assume U.S) marketplace? - And they found Fram to be "dramatically"
better than, say, Wix? A statement such as this is just too bold to
be taken at face value without supportive data (IMHO). For my benifit
could you please share the test details that show Fram's superiority
over Wix, Hastings, and perhaps Kendall filters?
Doug Leno
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