Mazda 2 (2011) front brake replacement

[Jc Maxwell]

So this weekend some friends and I are going to attempt replacement of front rotors and pads on a 2011 Mazda 2 Sport.

I took the car to a mechanic a while back. He reported that there was a lot of rust on the rotors, and the pads had very little (perhaps 5%) material left. The rust is likely the result of the car's previous life in a maritime climate with very harsh winters.

The job was quoted at around $800 all included, which is mostly labor charges. Not sure whether that's reasonable, but I'd rather my friends and I do it for parts (should be no more than $200) + payment in beverages.

I expect at worst, we won't be able to get something apart due to the rust. I can have it towed to a regular shop to salvage the situation, if required.

Any recommendations on where to get parts? I'd like to get parts that are pretty close to OEM specifications, or even actual OEM, not necessarily the cheapest thing possible.

What all am I in for? I figure at minimum we'll have to drain the brake lines, take the wheels off, swap the rotors and pads (not necessarily in that order), but I'm probably missing something.

Should I expect to complete this in a day? An afternoon? Is it going to take all weekend?

Is there a Mazda 2 service manual I can download?

[The Real Bev]

On 01/12/2016 07:57 AM, Jc Maxwell wrote:
> So this weekend some friends and I are going to attempt replacement
> of front rotors and pads on a 2011 Mazda 2 Sport.
>
> I took the car to a mechanic a while back. He reported that there
> was a lot of rust on the rotors, and the pads had very little
> (perhaps 5%) material left. The rust is likely the result of the
> car's previous life in a maritime climate with very harsh winters.

Pad replacement is trivial -- assembling the tools ("I KNOW I've got
some C-clamps that size somewhere...") takes longer than the job itself.
The first time I did it I was absolutely shocked. The first one took
maybe half an hour; the other side half that.

No idea about the rotors. Are you sure they need replacing? If it's
not really much the pads will make short work of the rust.When I ground
mine down to nubbins (I tolerated the noise for a long time because I
was busy at work; I only had the brakes done when the pads were down to
the metal backing plate which ground the rotors down into what looked
like beginners' lathe projects) the mechanic replaced them from a
wrecking yard for $10 each. Yeah, that was back in the late 80s, but
still...

> The job was quoted at around $800 all included, which is mostly labor
> charges. Not sure whether that's reasonable, but I'd rather my
> friends and I do it for parts (should be no more than $200) + payment
> in beverages.

Good friends!

> I expect at worst, we won't be able to get something apart due to the
> rust. I can have it towed to a regular shop to salvage the
> situation, if required.

Call some of the chain repair places (I've been happy with Pep Boys for
a long time, but when they say 'coast to coast' they mean California and
one or two shops in New York or equivalent.) and ask what rotor and pad
replacement costs if no other parts are needed.

> Any recommendations on where to get parts? I'd like to get parts
> that are pretty close to OEM specifications, or even actual OEM, not
> necessarily the cheapest thing possible.

Again, I like Pep Boys lifetime parts.

> What all am I in for? I figure at minimum we'll have to drain the
> brake lines, take the wheels off, swap the rotors and pads (not
> necessarily in that order), but I'm probably missing something.

You might need calipers, which are considerably more expensive. Do the
brakes actually work now, or is this a wreck you're trying to rehabilitate?

> Should I expect to complete this in a day? An afternoon? Is it
> going to take all weekend?
>
> Is there a Mazda 2 service manual I can download?

I'm sure there is, but paper books are handier and grease doesn't hurt
them much.

http://mazdamanuals.info/mazda-2-pdf-manuals-online-download-links/

--
Cheers, Bev
-------------------------------------------------------------
"We've got some stupid people out there. This morning, I woke
up in a bathtub filled with ice and I had an extra kidney."

[>>>Ashton Crusher]

watch this youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KF2R9gCedw

There may be others.

It should be very straightforward. Just have some wire handy to hang
the calipers on so they aren't hanging on the brake line. If you have
anti lock brakes then you want to open the bleeder screw when you are
pushing the pistons back into the calipers to avoid pushing old brake
fluid up into the ABS valves. If you don't have ABS it's not much of
a worry. You can push the pistons back before you pull the caliper
off by prying on the pad with a large screwdriver to push the pad, and
the piston, back. Or you can get a large C-clamp and use it to push
against and old pad (to protect the piston) when you have the caliper
off. Pushing the piston back is likely to be the hardest part other
then simply the normal confusion when you have never done something
before and nothing is familiar to you. Have some PB Blaster or other
penetrating oil handy if you think the nuts and bolts may be rusted by
don't make a mess of it, you don't want it all over your new brakes.
Also pick up a couple spray cans of spray brake cleaner to spray off
any grease you might accidentally get on the new parts. Another item
I've seen stressed in professional articles, not so much in DIY
articles, is that you need to wash the new rotors were soap and water
to get all the machining residue and small metal chips. That said,
for years I had never heard of doing that and just sprayed the new
disks with the brake cleaner spray and cleaned them that way and as
far as I ever noticed there was never a problem. But at least clean
them with the brake spray cleaner to get all the protective coating
off. I use soap and water and then brake cleaner spray now. I also
put silicone grease on the back of the pads where they contact the
piston and other parts of the caliper. Just don't let it get on the
friction part of the pad. Some cars use one time use only caliper
mounting bolts that are torque to yield. I have no idea of yours is
one of those. My guess is that it isn't but YMMV.

[Scott Dorsey]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 01/12/2016 07:57 AM, Jc Maxwell wrote:
>> So this weekend some friends and I are going to attempt replacement
>> of front rotors and pads on a 2011 Mazda 2 Sport.
>>
>> I took the car to a mechanic a while back. He reported that there
>> was a lot of rust on the rotors, and the pads had very little
>> (perhaps 5%) material left. The rust is likely the result of the
>> car's previous life in a maritime climate with very harsh winters.
>
>Pad replacement is trivial -- assembling the tools ("I KNOW I've got
>some C-clamps that size somewhere...") takes longer than the job itself.
> The first time I did it I was absolutely shocked. The first one took
>maybe half an hour; the other side half that.

Agreed. The pads are the easy part.

>No idea about the rotors. Are you sure they need replacing? If it's
>not really much the pads will make short work of the rust.When I ground
>mine down to nubbins (I tolerated the noise for a long time because I
>was busy at work; I only had the brakes done when the pads were down to
>the metal backing plate which ground the rotors down into what looked
>like beginners' lathe projects) the mechanic replaced them from a
>wrecking yard for $10 each. Yeah, that was back in the late 80s, but
>still...

The thing about the rotors is that you're going to have to take them off
sooner or later... so this might be a good time to just remove them and put
them back on if they measure fine. Put a little anti-seize on the screws
so that next time they'll come off easily.

Check and grease the calipers, make sure everything is moving nicely.

>> The job was quoted at around $800 all included, which is mostly labor
>> charges. Not sure whether that's reasonable, but I'd rather my
>> friends and I do it for parts (should be no more than $200) + payment
>> in beverages.

People charge crazy rates like that when they don't know what they are going
to be getting into. Maybe it'll be a half-hour job. Maybe all the fasteners
will be solid blocks of rust and it will take all day and some work with a
torch to get everything apart. You don't know until you get under there, and
so you're going to pad the estimate way out.

I agree, though, that if the only problem with the rotors is rust that I
wouldn't replace them.... but I sure would take them off and measure them
on the bench, just for the sake of getting them off, seeing what the state
of everything around them is, and getting some anti-seize on the screws.

>> Any recommendations on where to get parts? I'd like to get parts
>> that are pretty close to OEM specifications, or even actual OEM, not
>> necessarily the cheapest thing possible.
>
>Again, I like Pep Boys lifetime parts.

All of the big guys will be fine. Find a locally-owned auto parts store,
go in and tell them you want new rotors that aren't crap. They'll know what
is crap and what isn't. You may find once you get under there that you don't
have to replace the rotors at all, in which case you will have a set of spares
on hand in the garage for the day when you do.

>> What all am I in for? I figure at minimum we'll have to drain the
>> brake lines, take the wheels off, swap the rotors and pads (not
>> necessarily in that order), but I'm probably missing something.
>
>You might need calipers, which are considerably more expensive. Do the
>brakes actually work now, or is this a wreck you're trying to rehabilitate?

I would also get a package of the high temperature caliper grease from the
FLAPS. I like the Loctite brand but there are plenty of others. When the
calipers are off, grease them and make sure everything is good.

You may not need to drain the brake lines at all, although if this is a car
with deferred maintenance issues, probably changing the brake fluid would be
a very good idea.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Jc Maxwell]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 9:31:50 PM UTC-7, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 01/12/2016 07:57 AM, Jc Maxwell wrote:
> > So this weekend some friends and I are going to attempt replacement
> > of front rotors and pads on a 2011 Mazda 2 Sport.
> >
> > I took the car to a mechanic a while back. He reported that there
> > was a lot of rust on the rotors, and the pads had very little
> > (perhaps 5%) material left. The rust is likely the result of the
> > car's previous life in a maritime climate with very harsh winters.
>
> Pad replacement is trivial -- assembling the tools ("I KNOW I've got
> some C-clamps that size somewhere...") takes longer than the job itself.
> The first time I did it I was absolutely shocked. The first one took
> maybe half an hour; the other side half that.

Good to hear!

> No idea about the rotors. Are you sure they need replacing? If it's
> not really much the pads will make short work of the rust.When I ground
> mine down to nubbins (I tolerated the noise for a long time because I
> was busy at work; I only had the brakes done when the pads were down to
> the metal backing plate which ground the rotors down into what looked
> like beginners' lathe projects) the mechanic replaced them from a
> wrecking yard for $10 each. Yeah, that was back in the late 80s, but
> still...

That's what the mechanic said - existing rotors are rusty as all get-out. They have no meat left for machining. Some cars roll out of the factory with rotors that simply don't have any extra metal against a future need to turn them, so if they get worn or gouged, you're getting new rotors. Apparently this car is one of those.

I've dealt with this shop a few times before, and they didn't try to pull a fast one, so I don't think they were just padding the job.

Junkyard rotors could be cheaper, sure, but more work. I'd have to measure them for runout, and then possibly have them turned. Going to measure the new ones anyway but I would be surprised if they had enough runout, out of the box, that I couldn't use them. And then I could take them back to the store.

Used rotors could also have cementite inclusions from previous hard use, which there would be no way of telling from just looking at them. I'd like to get this job done quickly, so I don't mind paying a bit to know I have good, true rotors at the start.

> > The job was quoted at around $800 all included, which is mostly labor
> > charges. Not sure whether that's reasonable, but I'd rather my
> > friends and I do it for parts (should be no more than $200) + payment
> > in beverages.
>
> Good friends!

Indeed.

> Call some of the chain repair places (I've been happy with Pep Boys for
> a long time, but when they say 'coast to coast' they mean California and
> one or two shops in New York or equivalent.) and ask what rotor and pad
> replacement costs if no other parts are needed.

This is good idea. As another writer suggested, the quote I got probably includes some wiggle room, in case of extra work. I haven't seen it directly yet, but supposedly there is a ton of rust up under there from the maritime environment and harsh winters (think road salt).

> Again, I like Pep Boys lifetime parts.

Good idea. The plan is that I'll go get parts (and lunch) once my friend and I successfully get things apart. There are four Pep Boys in this town, so it shouldn't take long.

> You might need calipers, which are considerably more expensive. Do the
> brakes actually work now, or is this a wreck you're trying to rehabilitate?

I will assume for planning purposes that the calipers are fine, because the mechanic did not think they needed replacing. Also, the car drives just fine, to include stopping. It just doesn't have much brake pad left.

Strictly speaking, we could wait until there's metal grinding on metal. But, that's not very safe. Also, it's not my car. I'm trying to get it fixed before the owner gets back from out of town, as a nice surprise. She's been out of work, so she wasn't sure how she was going to get the work done.

> I'm sure there is, but paper books are handier and grease doesn't hurt
> them much.
>
> http://mazdamanuals.info/mazda-2-pdf-manuals-online-download-links/

Thanks, maybe I'll print out the relevant sections.

Appreciate it!

[Jc Maxwell]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 7:30:06 AM UTC-7, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> The thing about the rotors is that you're going to have to take them off
> sooner or later... so this might be a good time to just remove them and put
> them back on if they measure fine. Put a little anti-seize on the screws
> so that next time they'll come off easily.

That's more or less my point of view. We'll see how rusty the rotors really are when/if we get everything apart, and measure thickness.

I'm not too concerned about runout on the existing rotors. I would assume that if they had any significant runout, it would manifest as bad braking (pulsation, shudder, juddering, etc.). Instead, the car brakes as smoothly as you'd like.

I'm not sure how to measure runout on the new rotors. Something I need to research. One would like to assume that new, good-quality rotors would not have a runout issue, but it's best to check, yes?

> Check and grease the calipers, make sure everything is moving nicely.

Good call. As I suggested, the calipers seem to work fine, but it wouldn't hurt to have a look.

Also, I'm looking at this job as prep for eventually doing my own brakes (I drive a much larger Mercury).

> People charge crazy rates like that when they don't know what they are going
> to be getting into. Maybe it'll be a half-hour job. Maybe all the fasteners
> will be solid blocks of rust and it will take all day and some work with a
> torch to get everything apart. You don't know until you get under there, and
> so you're going to pad the estimate way out.

This is good point. The mechanic did mention that he was erring on the side of extra work, given the extreme amount of rust he saw. Much better that, vs. getting everything apart and "oh BTW it will be another $500 in labor."

> I agree, though, that if the only problem with the rotors is rust that I
> wouldn't replace them.... but I sure would take them off and measure them
> on the bench, just for the sake of getting them off, seeing what the state
> of everything around them is, and getting some anti-seize on the screws.

Good plan. Again, this will give me experience towards eventually replacing my own brake pads and/or rotors.

> All of the big guys will be fine. Find a locally-owned auto parts store,
> go in and tell them you want new rotors that aren't crap. They'll know what
> is crap and what isn't. You may find once you get under there that you don't
> have to replace the rotors at all, in which case you will have a set of spares
> on hand in the garage for the day when you do.

Well I probably will just never take the new rotors out of the box in that case, and take them back for a refund. I had a set of tie rod ends for a Mercury Grand Marquis sitting at my old house for 5 years, that I was going to use "some day." :)

> I would also get a package of the high temperature caliper grease from the
> FLAPS. I like the Loctite brand but there are plenty of others. When the
> calipers are off, grease them and make sure everything is good.

(N.B.: FLAPS = Friendly Local Auto Parts Store. hehe)

> You may not need to drain the brake lines at all, although if this is a car
> with deferred maintenance issues, probably changing the brake fluid would be
> a very good idea.
> --scott

I assumed that swapping out the brake fluid would be standard procedure. Don't you want the system depressurized, to grease the calipers and such?

As far as I know, the brake fluid has not been replaced in the 3 years of driving by the current owner. She drives very reasonably, but still, it's probably time to swap it out anyway.

Thanks!

[.]

On 1/13/2016 9:30 AM, Jc Maxwell wrote:

Go to RockAuto.com, get the RAYBESTOS 580450R discs.
It's your best value and will take 3 days to get them, you won't
regret it.

Also, get the ceramic or semi-metallic pads of your choice
(go with whatever is on there now, you don't want different
types on front and rear). Click on the "Choose for me to
minimize cost" ENABLE button so that the discs and pads
will originate from the same warehouse, thereby minimizing
shipping costs and saving you money.

[The Real Bev]

The mechanic ordered them from the junkyard and they didn't need
turning. The junkyards around here cooperate nicely with the mechanics
that buy from them -- why alienate a customer who will not only not buy
from you any more, he'll tell his mechanic friends not to buy from you?
Over the decades, I've decided I like junkyard guys. They've never
sold me crap.

> Used rotors could also have cementite inclusions from previous hard
> use, which there would be no way of telling from just looking at
> them. I'd like to get this job done quickly, so I don't mind paying
> a bit to know I have good, true rotors at the start.

I wonder how often rotors get redesigned. I suspect not all that often,
but that's just a guess.

It's amazingly not unsafe, but that doesn't mean anybody should delay
deliberately. As I was grinding them down metal-to-metal they stopped
just fine but made awful sounds. When they started hogging in I knew it
was time to get them fixed and I was shocked at just how much damage I'd
done to the rotors. Had they not been valuable to the shop as scrap
metal I would have kept the worst one as a wall decoration.

> Also, it's not my car. I'm
> trying to get it fixed before the owner gets back from out of town,
> as a nice surprise. She's been out of work, so she wasn't sure how
> she was going to get the work done.

Excellent!

>> I'm sure there is, but paper books are handier and grease doesn't
>> hurt them much.
>>
>> http://mazdamanuals.info/mazda-2-pdf-manuals-online-download-links/
>>
> Thanks, maybe I'll print out the relevant sections.
>
> Appreciate it!

Enjoy!


--
Cheers, Bev
====================================
Start worrying -- details to follow.

[Jc Maxwell]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 8:56:45 AM UTC-7, . wrote:
> On 1/13/2016 9:30 AM, Jc Maxwell wrote:
>
> Go to RockAuto.com, get the RAYBESTOS 580450R discs.
> It's your best value and will take 3 days to get them, you won't
> regret it.

Thanks, but I don't think those are the right rotors. Amazon.com's part picker says they aren't, Rockauto.com's parts list for the 2011 Mazda 2 doesn't list them, and they seem to have 5 stud holes. All the other rotors listed for this car have 4 holes, so I don't think the 580450R rotor is going to fit.

>
> Also, get the ceramic or semi-metallic pads of your choice
> (go with whatever is on there now, you don't want different
> types on front and rear). Click on the "Choose for me to
> minimize cost" ENABLE button so that the discs and pads
> will originate from the same warehouse, thereby minimizing
> shipping costs and saving you money.

I don't know what type of shoes the rear brakes use, but they're drum brakes, rather than disc (thus shoes). The car had low miles (<30000 km) when purchased, and has never needed brake service since then, so it's conceivable that the rear shoes are original factory equipment. I do plan to get quality pads, not the cheapest thing available. I'm saving so much on labor that I can afford to "splurge" a few bucks on higher-than-OEM-quality parts.

The brake fluid could be factory original. Brake fluid needs to be replaced periodically even if you don't drive hard, doesn't it?

As I'm trying to get the work done this weekend, it's too late to wait for something to ship, unfortunately. I may end up paying a few more bucks getting the parts retail vs. online, but oh well. Since this is my first time doing such a major repair, I'd rather have the convenience of retail: e.g., being able to bring the parts back if I accidentally get the wrong ones, and being able to pick up additional parts right away if required. It's no fun to have to stop work early, because it will take another week to get the right parts shipped.

Thanks!

[.]

On 1/13/2016 11:59 AM, Jc Maxwell wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 8:56:45 AM UTC-7, . wrote:
>> On 1/13/2016 9:30 AM, Jc Maxwell wrote:
>>
>> Go to RockAuto.com, get the RAYBESTOS 580450R discs.
>> It's your best value and will take 3 days to get them, you won't
>> regret it.
>
> Thanks, but I don't think those are the right rotors. Amazon.com's part picker
says they aren't, Rockauto.com's parts list for the 2011 Mazda 2 doesn't
list them,
and they seem to have 5 stud holes. All the other rotors listed for
this car have
4 holes, so I don't think the 580450R rotor is going to fit.

Sorry, the mistake was mine. The correct one's for a 4 hole is
RAYBESTOS 980863R Professional Grade and RockAuto does
have a listing for a 2011 Mazda 2 in the Daily Driver category.

>> Also, get the ceramic or semi-metallic pads of your choice
>> (go with whatever is on there now, you don't want different
>> types on front and rear). Click on the "Choose for me to
>> minimize cost" ENABLE button so that the discs and pads
>> will originate from the same warehouse, thereby minimizing
>> shipping costs and saving you money.
>
> I don't know what type of shoes the rear brakes use, but they're drum brakes,
rather than disc (thus shoes). The car had low miles (<30000 km) when
purchased,
and has never needed brake service since then, so it's conceivable that
the rear shoes
are original factory equipment. I do plan to get quality pads, not the
cheapest thing
available. I'm saving so much on labor that I can afford to "splurge" a
few bucks on
higher-than-OEM-quality parts.

Raybestos is a quality brand.

> The brake fluid could be factory original. Brake fluid needs to be replaced periodically
even if you don't drive hard, doesn't it?
>
> As I'm trying to get the work done this weekend, it's too late to wait for something
to ship, unfortunately. I may end up paying a few more bucks getting
the parts retail vs.
online, but oh well. Since this is my first time doing such a major
repair, I'd rather have
the convenience of retail: e.g., being able to bring the parts back if I
accidentally get the
wrong ones, and being able to pick up additional parts right away if
required. It's no fun
to have to stop work early, because it will take another week to get the
right parts shipped.
>
> Thanks!

The only issue with RockAuto is don't buy closeouts.
I've had no other problems with them, but I understand
that you're in a hurry this time. Sorry about the mistake.

[Steve W.]

Well a kit to do the fronts with pads, rotors, and hardware is 80 bucks
at rock auto. If things are that rusty you will want a caliper guide pin
kit as well.

Looking at the specs the rotors are scrap if the are rusted. They start
as 23MM with a min. of 21MM removing rust and wear will eat that real quick.


Probably will want a drill handy to remove the rotor screw, I doubt it
will come free. I generally just drill to the bottom of the countersink
in the rotor, remove the rotor and use a chisel to shear the screw off
flush.



--
Steve W.

[Jc Maxwell]

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 1:34:27 PM UTC-7, Steve W. wrote:
> Well a kit to do the fronts with pads, rotors, and hardware is 80 bucks
> at rock auto.

I noticed that, and the kits seem like a good deal. Hoping they have the same package deal at a local store, since I'm getting parts on Saturday.

> If things are that rusty you will want a caliper guide pin
> kit as well.

I'm almost positive I'll be going back to the store for parts we didn't know we needed. Could well end up being caliper guide pins.

> Looking at the specs the rotors are scrap if the are rusted. They start
> as 23MM with a min. of 21MM removing rust and wear will eat that real quick.

That's the gist of what the mechanic said. It seems a lot of cars are like that today. I presume it's for weight savings/handling characteristics (reducing unsprung weight, perhaps). Cast iron is heavy.

I believe the rotors on my car (Mercury Grand Marquis) are also "replace if worn" in that sense.

Fortunately, rotors are cheap. Unfortunately, mechanic labor isn't. Which is why I'm learning to do this myself.

> Probably will want a drill handy to remove the rotor screw, I doubt it
> will come free. I generally just drill to the bottom of the countersink
> in the rotor, remove the rotor and use a chisel to shear the screw off
> flush.

Yes, and I'd bet this is why the estimate I got was on the large side. There's no telling how it will go until you start trying to take stuff apart.

Thanks!

[Jc Maxwell]

Brake job postponed to the coming weekend (1/23). Something came up so we couldn't do the work Saturday, and also I couldn't get the parts here fast enough.

I found that buying local was not the way to go. I bought a front rotors and pads kit at rockauto.com for less than half what it would have cost to get parts at retail. Paid a bit more for faster shipping, and I'm still well ahead on parts cost.

Had another look at the mechanic's estimate. It was actually closer to $630, not $800 (that figure included some other work). Still steep.

By Sunday, I should be posting either "wow, that was easier than I expected!", or some variation on "ended up having it towed to a shop."

[Andy K]

I wish you luck on your repair. :-)

Andy

[The Real Bev]

Definitely! I especially hope that the instructions are absolutely clear!

--
Cheers, Bev
---------------------------------------
A recent psychic fair was cancelled due
to unforeseen circumstances.

[Jc Maxwell]

I feel pretty good about it. The parts arrived Wednesday and I've looked through them. Did some additional reading, and decided I should pick up a small tube of brake caliper lube.

If this is as quick and easy as it seems it's going to be, I may do the brakes on my own car next. It hasn't had new pads for 10 years, so it's probably time!

[Jc Maxwell]

Wow, that was SO much easier than I was expecting.

I did have some expert help. I'll refer to him hereafter as Mechanic Buddy (MB). So there were three of us: self, MB, and his old Army buddy, C. MB has worked on his own vehicles for years, and has all the tools you'd expect. In maybe 10 minutes we had the car up and the old pads off on one side. It wasn't C's first rodeo either.

The old rotors were in terrible shape, as the first mechanic had said. They were quite worn, and super rusty. We knocked a hell of a lot of flakes of rust out of the general area where the rotors had been. Fortunately, nothing else (such as hubs, calipers, or suspension bits) seemed to be rusty. MB had seen worse. C attacked the works with a wire brush, and had it spic & span in short order.

BTW, a 2011 Mazda 2 does not use screws to hold the rotors on. They are held on strictly by the presence of the wheel & lug nuts. The old rotors were a little sticky, but not rusted hard to the hub, probably because the hub itself did not rust. There was some corrosion at the wheel/rotor interface, but not much on the wheel itself (they are aluminum wheels). Aluminum does corrode, but it all appeared to be superficial, thank goodness.

I clarified with the car's owner that they use sand most of the time up there, not salt, to make the roads drivable in winter. Still, even some road salting, and a harsh humid climate, will combine to do a number on anything that can rust.

The old brake pads weren't completely gone, but were getting there. Maybe 2mm of material was left. Bonus points: I accidentally bought fancy pads with a Teflon coating on the back, so brake caliper lube was unnecessary.

I'm still not sure why the old works got in such bad shape. It was as if the pads had worn a little unevenly. There was a tangible trough in the rotors where pads made contact, vs. the completely smooth and level feel of the new rotors. Weird.

For those keeping score at home: as of Saturday the car had about 69,000 km/43,000 miles on it. So the brakes were most likely factory equipment, as was the battery.

We got a good laugh, noticing that the brake calipers had Ford markings on them. Fasteners were metric, as expected.

The whole job took maybe an hour.

We elected not to swap out brake fluid. We did add some, to get it up to the right level, after everything else was done. MB said the old fluid looked fine, so there was no point in replacing it. Also, the car has ABS, so it would have been kind of a hassle. Car stops perfectly well now - no spongy pedal feel or other evidence of air in the brake system, etc. So I think that will do.

The before-and-after difference in braking is dramatic. Driving over there, it felt like crap every time I had to stop. It stopped fine, just felt awful. Kinda grind-y and uneven through the pedal.

On the way home? Braking was nice and solid, just as it should be. Smooth. Even. Not too much pedal travel required.

It turns out the battery was fine (like I said MB is fully equipped, to include a battery tester). We added some distilled water, since the electrolyte was a bit low.

This was where I learned about the "aspirin trick." Supposedly, you drop an aspirin in each battery cell, and it cleans junk off the electrode(s?), reinvigorating an old battery. We skipped it both because we didn't have any aspirin, and because the battery was working OK in the first place. I'm skeptical of Bubba-ing electrochemistry, but I'm far from the first to hear of this nugget of automotive wisdom.

Can't do that on my car, as the battery I have is sealed.

So in total I saved almost $700, even though I bought lunch for all involved.

Next project: brakes on my own car. It's not had a brake job in around 9 years, so it's probably time.

We discussed the disposability of rotors. MB is of the opinion that you want to swap the rotors every time you do a brake job, just because it's a wear item. I can't disagree, given that they're relatively cheap - as long as you're doing your own, not relying on a for-profit service.

We both had a good chuckle over the absurd markup on the parts the original mechanic wanted to use

[The Real Bev]

On 01/25/2016 07:40 AM, Jc Maxwell wrote:
> Wow, that was SO much easier than I was expecting.
>
> I did have some expert help. I'll refer to him hereafter as Mechanic
> Buddy (MB). So there were three of us: self, MB, and his old Army
> buddy, C. MB has worked on his own vehicles for years, and has all
> the tools you'd expect. In maybe 10 minutes we had the car up and
> the old pads off on one side. It wasn't C's first rodeo either.

<snip>

EXCELLENT. Glad you reported back and that it worked out so well!

--
Cheers, Bev
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I love to go down to the schoolyard and watch all the
little children jump up and down and run around yelling and
screaming...They don't know I'm only using blanks." --Emo

[Steve W.]

Jc Maxwell wrote:
> Wow, that was SO much easier than I was expecting.
>
> I did have some expert help. I'll refer to him hereafter as Mechanic
> Buddy (MB). So there were three of us: self, MB, and his old Army
> buddy, C. MB has worked on his own vehicles for years, and has all
> the tools you'd expect. In maybe 10 minutes we had the car up and
> the old pads off on one side. It wasn't C's first rodeo either.
>
> The old rotors were in terrible shape, as the first mechanic had
> said. They were quite worn, and super rusty. We knocked a hell of a
> lot of flakes of rust out of the general area where the rotors had
> been. Fortunately, nothing else (such as hubs, calipers, or
> suspension bits) seemed to be rusty. MB had seen worse. C attacked
> the works with a wire brush, and had it spic & span in short order.

Normal. I've seen only a few that were nice and clean. NY normally eats
a vehicle in short order. You might make it 3-4 years of normal driving
before the rust gets a good start.

>
> BTW, a 2011 Mazda 2 does not use screws to hold the rotors on. They
> are held on strictly by the presence of the wheel & lug nuts. The
> old rotors were a little sticky, but not rusted hard to the hub,
> probably because the hub itself did not rust. There was some
> corrosion at the wheel/rotor interface, but not much on the wheel
> itself (they are aluminum wheels). Aluminum does corrode, but it all
> appeared to be superficial, thank goodness.

50/50 on the screws, some use them, some don't. A trick on aluminum
wheels is to clean off any corrosion and spray the backside with a light
coat of white grease. The grease will slow the corrosion and allow
easier removal of the wheel.

>
> I clarified with the car's owner that they use sand most of the time
> up there, not salt, to make the roads drivable in winter. Still,
> even some road salting, and a harsh humid climate, will combine to do
> a number on anything that can rust.

Salt in any climate will do a number on anything that can corrode. I
would bet they use a sand/salt mix, very common.

>
> The old brake pads weren't completely gone, but were getting there.
> Maybe 2mm of material was left. Bonus points: I accidentally bought
> fancy pads with a Teflon coating on the back, so brake caliper lube
> was unnecessary.
>
> I'm still not sure why the old works got in such bad shape. It was
> as if the pads had worn a little unevenly. There was a tangible
> trough in the rotors where pads made contact, vs. the completely
> smooth and level feel of the new rotors. Weird.

Normal. Rotors see a lot of heat cycling during use. Combine the heat
with water and dirt and they get a beating. Bring your car home and park
it and as the brakes cool down moisture in the air attacks the nice
clean oil free surface of the rotor, rust starts almost instantly. Next
day you go to work and that bit of rust that formed gets embedded in the
pad. Stop a few times and the rust gets removed but it took a bit of the
iron away.

>
> For those keeping score at home: as of Saturday the car had about
> 69,000 km/43,000 miles on it. So the brakes were most likely factory
> equipment, as was the battery.
>
> We got a good laugh, noticing that the brake calipers had Ford
> markings on them. Fasteners were metric, as expected.
>
> The whole job took maybe an hour.
>
> We elected not to swap out brake fluid. We did add some, to get it
> up to the right level, after everything else was done. MB said the
> old fluid looked fine, so there was no point in replacing it. Also,
> the car has ABS, so it would have been kind of a hassle. Car stops
> perfectly well now - no spongy pedal feel or other evidence of air in
> the brake system, etc. So I think that will do.

I usually flush fluid that is dark, if you can see through it I leave it
alone. But a pressure bleeder makes it easy to flush the system.

>
> The before-and-after difference in braking is dramatic. Driving over
> there, it felt like crap every time I had to stop. It stopped fine,
> just felt awful. Kinda grind-y and uneven through the pedal.
>
> On the way home? Braking was nice and solid, just as it should be.
> Smooth. Even. Not too much pedal travel required.
>
> It turns out the battery was fine (like I said MB is fully equipped,
> to include a battery tester). We added some distilled water, since
> the electrolyte was a bit low.
>
> This was where I learned about the "aspirin trick." Supposedly, you
> drop an aspirin in each battery cell, and it cleans junk off the
> electrode(s?), reinvigorating an old battery. We skipped it both
> because we didn't have any aspirin, and because the battery was
> working OK in the first place. I'm skeptical of Bubba-ing
> electrochemistry, but I'm far from the first to hear of this nugget
> of automotive wisdom.

Heard of it but never tried it.

>
> Can't do that on my car, as the battery I have is sealed.
>
> So in total I saved almost $700, even though I bought lunch for all
> involved.
>
> Next project: brakes on my own car. It's not had a brake job in
> around 9 years, so it's probably time.

Very likely, unless it stays parked in the garage.

>
> We discussed the disposability of rotors. MB is of the opinion that
> you want to swap the rotors every time you do a brake job, just
> because it's a wear item. I can't disagree, given that they're
> relatively cheap - as long as you're doing your own, not relying on a
> for-profit service.

About the only ones that are not disposable these days are on SUVs and
trucks. The rest of the bunch use thinner/lighter rotors (and everything
else) to get better mileage.

>
> We both had a good chuckle over the absurd markup on the parts the
> original mechanic wanted to use

I'm not sure I would call it absurd. Consider the amount of money it
costs to run a business these days. Auto repair is a VERY expensive
field. Especially if you want to keep everything up to date with
training and technology. You can easily have $100,000.00 invested just
in tools before you even turn a wrench. Now add in the cost of the
building, taxes, waste disposal, electric, heat, insurance and a host of
other areas to spend money. Get busy enough to need help and you can add
in a bunch more money going out.

--
Steve W.

[Jc Maxwell]

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 4:22:23 PM UTC-7, Steve W. wrote:
> > Next project: brakes on my own car. It's not had a brake job in
> > around 9 years, so it's probably time.
>
> Very likely, unless it stays parked in the garage.

(Not talking about the Mazda 2, rather my own '98 Mercury, here.)

Garage for 7 of the last 9 years, parked outside the last 2.

Brakes aside, parking outside doesn't seem to have been great for the paint. Said paint has begun to fall off, in the last year or so. There are spots where it's down to primer. Maybe that's just what happens when a car is 18 years old? Clearcoat on my last Mercury started flaking off around the 11 year mark (it was parked outdoors its entire life).

Thank goodness I am in a dry climate, or the '98 would have body rust problems.

> About the only ones that are not disposable these days are on SUVs and
> trucks. The rest of the bunch use thinner/lighter rotors (and everything
> else) to get better mileage.

I figured it was to do with fuel economy.

Even rotors that have enough meat on them, may not be worth turning. A co-worker who drives a truck also does his own work. He opted for new rotors, vs. the cost of having the existing ones turned. It was about the same money, and in that case why not get new?

Speculating, I can envision shiploads of worn-out brake rotors going overseas for scrap, possibly to China or India, to be melted down and re-born as new rotors.

> I'm not sure I would call it absurd. Consider the amount of money it
> costs to run a business these days. Auto repair is a VERY expensive
> field. Especially if you want to keep everything up to date with
> training and technology. You can easily have $100,000.00 invested just
> in tools before you even turn a wrench. Now add in the cost of the
> building, taxes, waste disposal, electric, heat, insurance and a host of
> other areas to spend money. Get busy enough to need help and you can add
> in a bunch more money going out.
>
> --
> Steve W.

Sure, there's overhead, but I found the call for "premium" rotors a bit much. Nearly 300% markup vs. the rotors I bought. What does "premium" mean anyway? Slotted and drilled? I wish I drove a car exciting enough to justify those.

Most of the estimate was labor. That's fine - and often the case. As you say, expenses exist.

I don't think the original shop was being dishonest. In fact, what they said was entirely correct: stuff was rusted and worn out and needed to be replaced. I didn't mind paying them to find that out - that's what they're there for.

[Jc Maxwell]

postscript: looking again at the estimate, the mechanic was actually going to charge less ($107.81) for a new battery than I could find one for on my own (about $108). I mean just the battery - before labor & shop supplies.

So, zero markup on the battery, or arguably even taking a loss, vs. 300% markup on the brake parts. Business is hard.